Asking the dev team to actually do something about the BM at exit gates #1
Specific: T-Bagging
What is worse than a sore loser? A sore winner. As Killer you can't do anything to stop them from leaving. In a few cases the overestimate and get caught, but that good feeling does not erase the other times when they just tease you.
I read many times, that you can just ignore it or don't go to the exit gates. If ignoring it would help, there would not be daily complains about it. And if you don't go to the exit gates, you have to stand somewhere waiting until they leave, a complete time waste.
I am proposing to change that, so you can't crouch at the exit gates and in an area around it, because everybody knows, survivor will just find a way to exploit it.
Nobody would be harmed. It has only positive aspects.
Tagged:
BHVR
Comments
I would never go to the gate unless you have blood warden and you can manage to get a kill.. but if they have gotten gens done and it was a bad game for me I just leave them to it. I don't go near the gate once all gens are done and it is open unless I know or feel I will get one kill or two. there is no point in going near the gate. not wasting my time but their own :)
I'm 49, didn't figure there were many people even close to my age playing this game. lol. I've been seeing t-bagging since BF2 and Halo.
Anyway, I really think this game with be better off giving Survivors and Killers taunts, somewhat similar to League of Legends. If there are more ways to BM, then BMing has less meaning.
When you have to resort to semantic nitpicking in an argument, you've probably already lost.
Ditto when you resort to puerile copycatting.
Fatalism is mostly just another word for apathy. There are plenty of ways to discourage this, or to encourage more positive behavior - and other games have managed some pretty amazing turnarounds in this regard.
'Mental fortitude' doesn't work the same way you think it does. That's mostly about being able to control your actions no matter what you are feeling. Being able to struggle on and continue to do your job despite being massively depressed and the like.
Controlling feelings isn't really possible. That's not how human beings operate on a neurological level.
Sigh.
Most of my online gaming was on PC, with the first online games (outside of Lans) being Starcraft 1 and Diablo 2 on our terrible dial-up connection.
And no, I don't think the answer to toxicity is more toxicity. Fighting fire with fire is an easy way to burn the entire house down.
I'm not sure if a penalty is the answer here - I'd rather see the carrot than the stick. Some system to encourage better sportsmanship maybe.
It's probably because my primary fields are psychology and education, and I've seen a lot of young people who play a ton of online games getting conditioned into thinking that antisocial behavior is somehow acceptable if you can do it anonymously and they really need this as an outlet for their own negative feelings, or who are struggling because their hobby of choice is full of jerks.
At this point t the only way to get you to read what I type is by mimicking you, otherwise you can't seem to get past the first sentence. What else am I supposed to do?
Also, sighing? Again? You realize that is being hypocritical right? You are literally betraying your own arguments by doing that. I mean, I realize you've stopped reading by now because what I am typing doesn't look like your own statements but come on at least try to stick to your own moral code.
I read what you typed and I gave my counter.
All you've been doing is essentially strawmanning/red herring-ing people's arguments - generally by shifting the focus of the argument to semantics (in a sort of whatabouty way). Nobody is saying that teabagging is the same as yelling slurs at someone - they are just giving examples of negative behavior that are difficult to completely prevent but are worth disincentivizing. In both cases, someone is extracting entertainment by spoiling another persons experience.
Rather than responding to it, you just made a bad attempt at parody.
And...no, expressing exasperation on a forum isn't BM. Nowhere in my 'code' (which I'd say is pretty much just the standard 'social contract' stuff) does it say that you can't get exasperated or point out fallacies.
If the game had a 'dammit' or 'frustration' emote, that would be the equivalent.
I smack them out, free bloodpoints
Can´t believe this thread got so long... i guess a lot of people don´t have real problems in real life.
A game is only a game. Whatever any players does has absolutely no effect in real life...
It's probably because they could be (I said could, not definitely are) terrible people. Teabagging, in real life, has been a part of sexual assaults and hazing rituals. As one example, a while ago I read a thread from someone who was complaining that real life teabagging now met real life charges because that interfered with their hazing. Now, before people say I'm saying something I'm not, of course real world tbagging is far worse but the arguments defending virtual teabagging are also the exact same that were used to defend gamers saying they were going to ######### someone or they raped that team. Real world ######### was far worse of course but how do you think real world ######### victims felt after being told they were going to be virtually raped? It's a comparable situation.
Whether someone is being a terrible person for doing it depends a lot on the circumstances. Is it with friends who have no negative connotations with it and they all are fine with it? Or is it being done to a stranger where you have no idea what they have been through and the only purpose is to make the other person miserable?
If the second, then there are three possibilities (a) you're a younger teenager or have the maturity level of one and one day you'll realize being a jerk on the internet isn't a good thing to aspire to and will stop (b) you don't understand or (c) you are, in fact, being a terrible person.
I don't think it's going to change anytime soon but just how gaming moved away from saying they were going to ######### the other person it will move away from tbagging. However, if everyone is apathetic about something nothing ever changes.
As for the other taunts (flashlight clicking, come here, points, etc) it's better to be a good sport but, if you're going to taunt, at least don't do it referring an activity that has been used in real world sexual assaults.
My argument is that using racism and ######### as examples is wrong since they are absolutely different things than being rude.
Your counter was to insist I am defending being rude or a jerk because I recognize there is a massive difference between being a hateful racist and being immature.
You, unhappy that I am not arguing that it's okay to be a jerk, repeatedly say I am because it validates your righteous indignation.
You are now, and have been, attempting to attack people emotionally in an attempt to make them agree with you out of fear of social shame. "Sigh" has and always has stood to be condescending. You know this, that's why your trying to defend it. You don't want to be held accountable for your behaviour. Crazy considering the topic huh? There is literally no other point to le Sigh at people.
The only reason for comparing an action to racism or ######### is to force a correlation between disagreement with you and agreement with those actions. There is no other reason to use it. People have been able to discuss this topic just fine without acting that way. Yet you are defending it. Which by your own statements, means that you frequently correlate anyone who disagrees with you with agreeing with racism.
Yes. I'm saying that this argument is a red herring. That's my exact point.
Nobody is arguing qualitative equivalency. That's what you are doing, and it's either an intentional or unintentional derailing of the argument. Ie. A red herring.
They are arguing that both of these things come from a similar place - a desire to extract enjoyment from making other people miserable, and this sort of behavior spoils the experience when it creeps into your hobby. That's the entirety of the point being made. Everything else is being added by you.
Here, again, you are derailing the argument. 'Sigh' is a common shorthand to express exasperation in an online discussion. It's not an attempt to 'socially shame' anyone (wut) or be condescending. You are attempting to twist this into some sort of personal slight to - again - derail the discussion at hand.
That said (let's assume your perspective, which I still maintain is wrong); we aren't in a match here - we are having a discussion on a forum. Different standards of behavior apply.
Again, people aren't trying to say 'teabagging someone in a videogame is the same as being a bigot'. That is a meaning that you've taken, and ran with. People are applying the 'man up or get off the internet' logic to other examples of bad behavior to demonstrate the problems with that logic.
Finally, as an aside - it's...pretty odd to see someone saying 'if you are annoyed by teabagging in a game it's a you problem' and then saying 'I'm being triggered by the word 'sigh'. You can't have it both ways.
But it does affect real life because there is a real person behind the other screen and the more real problems they have the more it would affect their mental health. So why be a jerk?
A lot of jerks in the world. WIll probably never change. And again i come to lack of sportsmanship nowadays. If you win you don´t need to make fun of the loser on top.
In real sports you are considered an absolute douchebag doing stuff like that...
I think a lot of it is generational. It's something that a lot of faculty members complain about, especially those of us who've been teaching for a very long time.
Kids growing up with online gaming get conditioned into negative behavior patterns/apathy by the ability to act like a jerk to people without any consequences. It's...something that society is going to have to deal with eventually - but that's a much bigger discussion.
Missing consequences. That is the point.
You could say our parents educated us better :-)
So if someone teabags in a video game it means their parents failed educating them? L M A O
It wasn't necessarily parental discipline (although that's a part of it - I have a ton of issues with modern 'touchy-feely' parenting and discipline). It's more the fact that society and the 'social contract' has never caught up to the internet.
This was fine 20 years ago, when gaming was still pretty niche and you'd still generally be out and about in the world, getting jostled around by the Brownian Motion of society at large and learning that being a gigantic smelly dingus is likely to get you into trouble.
Now - so many kids spend the entirety of their free time playing online games and this definitely sets them up for failure and maladjustment, especially when those games teach them that they can act obnoxious without suffering any negative results because of this.
And I say this as a massive gamer.
No, not t-bagging. Being an a.. to a killer (or anyone) who already lost.
In fact you should never be an a.. to other people. But thats my opinion - and my education.
Always treat someone like you want to be treated.
I wonder how sad someones life has to be to feel the need to tbag others and even try to justify it in a party game.
Let us killers once the exit gates are opened give up. Simple
Whatever, IDC at this point, it's the same discussions day in, day out, and a waste of my time anyway. You are literally defending BM and saying that anyone who BMs hasn't had any sort of failure in education, and it seems from this thread that it's a common theme. Not really a community worth being a part of, if you ask me.
I'm not defending BM. Nowhere in my posts I defended it. I don't do it. But comparing BM in a video game to having no parental education and saying someone should have been aborted because they teabag, is a bit much. It's not that deep.
I believe the original offending post has already been moderated, but it needs to be said regardless: You are all over the place and the extremes are gross.
Seek help.
Possibly. I have a elementary aged son and, when he was playing online ( supervised and a children's game) he laughed at someone. I asked him not to do that and reminded him of when that happened to him and how bad he felt. He has never done it since so he has a better standard of conduct online than some older gamers even though he's still in elementary school.
No, I'm really not.
Your argument is that people should just be civil and polite, but you are constantly attempted to chip away at people emotionally to get them to agree with you or became emotionally unstable.
Otherwise know as manipulation. It's also why you keep defending doing it.
That's why you keep brushing it aside. It's why no matter how many times I say I'm not defending anything you keep saying I do. Your goal is to make me emotionally unstable so I will agree with you or leave. I never once said your last paragraph because I don't believe in it. Yet here you are, again, openly accusing me of saying something I didn't, all to get an emotional reaction from me. It's why you also used the word triggered. Your goal with these words is to attack me emotionally, to harm my ego.
This is why you're a hypocrite at best and a troll at worst.
I never once said being harassed is a you problem, I said making any comparison to racism and ######### is wrong and people need to stop doing it. You are the one who keeps insisting otherwise.
Uh it's not semantic nitpicking since my entire argument is contingent on there being a stark difference between crappy sportsmanship and abuse. Not really sure why you linked me to whataboutism considering I never once accused that person of hypocrisy? They asserted that tea bagging is harassment, I outlined why I disagree with that by alluding to my anecdotal experience with real harassment. That's not whataboutism lol
If you really want to do something about it, run Blood Warden. There's nothing better than watching the smug little ######### stop dead in their tracks when they realize they should have run out the gates thirty seconds ago instead of standing there so they can T-bag you.
Bonus points for NOED. I've been known to turn 1K into 4K every once in a while thanks to those perks alone.
Do remember it's just a game, though. It's nothing to really get upset about. (Hell, I T-bag at the gates when I play survivor.)
Except that the issue being discussed isn't a semantic one. It's about videogame toxicity. Different words have different definitions in different contexts - and 'harassment' in a videogame might not perfectly fit with 'harassment' IRL. That doesn't mean it's not something worth trying to reduce.
And yes - it's whataboutism. You're raising a different issue (IRL harassment) rather than discussing what everyone else is. Whataboutism isn't necessarily about hypocrisy (and if you want to be technical, pointing out hypocrisy isn't whataboutism unless it's disingenuous - see below), and I was tired of saying 'red herring'.
And this is more the sort of whataboutism you are referring to. Note how nothing I said is being addressed, and instead he's trying to turn it around.
What is interesting is how someone did a complete 180 from defending ingame toxicity to accusing me of...I don't even know. Making him feel guilty?
I know it's a long shot, but hear me out: what if you could grow some skin and learn how to ignore people on the internet?
Seriously, are you gonna blame the whole world if the winter is too cold for your liking?
Jeez, what a whiny generation it is.
7 pages in and this is the comment you muster? You are just like the BM'ing survivors, you need to be heard no matter how meaningless your cries for attention are.
It's...sort of amazing how the literal only response to this is blame shifting.
No. If someone is being a jerk, then it is their fault for being a jerk. Not other people's fault for being annoyed at the jerk.
If someone was manufacturing the winter, I'd certainly be giving them a call. But that's a...silly analogy.
You act like there is nothing that could be done to encourage better sportsmanship.
See, some of us work for a living and spend our days dealing with pretty difficult situations and individuals, as well as taking care of our families and all the other little gripes and irritations that wear you out as an adult.
When we come home to finally enjoy our hobby, I don't think that it's beyond reasonableness to expect to enjoy it without the chud patrol showing up to spoil things.
Wow... this thread is still going on...
Maybe you should read what he typed. Might clue you on to what he is saying.
It's...a pretty contentious topic that is getting a lot of play right now, likely due to the current influx of new players from Epic encountering this community for the first time.
I did.
He's trying to make a point that ingame harassment/rudeness isn't the same as IRL harassment/rudeness, and my response is basically 'duh, but I've never claimed that it was'.
No. He claimed that the escalation of comparisons had become inappropriate and you repeatedly accused him of defending in game toxicity.
Like. You trolled him good so bravo and all but wow. I can't believe you're still dragging this out.
Ah, the internet. Where any opinion you agree with is genius and any opinion you don't agree with can be safely dismissed as trolling.
But okay, look at this from my perspective.
Someone does something objectively negative. Someone else comes in and shifts the blame from that person to the people annoyed at what he did. This can only be construed as defending (or at least being apologist for) person #1's behavior.
What other rational explanation could there be for choosing this hill to die on? There's no benefit that I can see unless person #2 is either toxic themselves, or thinks that it's somehow a positive thing.
What detriment would there be to this person in taking steps to discourage this kind of activity.
That's the point.
You inserted yourself into an argument that two other people were having. The topic was that certain things are not okay to escalate comparisons to.
You then decided that because someone disagrees with teabagging being compared to serious and violent crimes, he must be defending im game toxicity as you put it.
He then said, repeatedly, that he wasn't and his argument was that the comparison was wrong, not that being a jerk is okay. You then proceeded to ignore that and repeatedly accuse him of it while becoming increasingly passive aggressive about it.
You now want to argue you both read what was typed and are not a troll.
No, he isn't.
He is either trolling or arguing for the sake or arguing.
As I pointed out to him, if someone argues the sky is blue, and his response is "No the sky isn't green it's blue" how can it be seen as anything other than trolling.
No, I posted on a thread on a public forum expressing my opinion on a topic that I'm quite passionate about currently. The title of the thread has nothing to do with escalation.
My point was that the 'escalation' argument is a red-herring - rather than dealing with the actual topic at hand, he was tone policing.
All you are doing here is ad-homming and it's...sort of pointless.
You also do not seem to have read what I typed.
If you want to talk about this topic further, I'd be happy to. Otherwise, I'm not going to get baited into a silly internet insult fest.
It's funny you think disliking being a toxic rude awful person is a troll.
No, I think accusing someone repeatedly of something they never did is being a troll.
No, you replied to a post that someone typed in direct response to another post and commented on it without understanding what was being commented on in the first place and laid out a heavy handed accusation.
You then proceeded to accuse the person of defending toxicity despite never having done that, going so far as to stick words in their mouth.
"it's...pretty odd to see someone saying 'if you are annoyed by teabagging in a game it's a you problem'"
He never said this or endorsed this. Only that escalating a comparison to such extremes isn't okay. Yet here you putting words in his mouth.
Once again. You either never read anything they typed, or you're a troll. Which one is it.
You're behaviour really seems like a troll who didn't expect me to be so blunt about it. If you want to turn tail that's your choice, but the fact you seem to do everything in your power to ignore the whole. Part where you accused him of something he didn't do really seems like your a troll who probably should have quit while they are ahead.
Sigh.
*Rubs temples*. I think this is quickly becoming a pointless exchange.
He very much said that in other responses earlier in the thread.
"No it's literally as easy as ignoring them. If it bothers you that much then go do something else while this is happening? Or perhaps find a hobby thay doesn't involve interacting with strangers?"
"Because it's laughable. If you can't ignore it like most people you should stop playing PvP games and stick to solo experiences. You clearly can't handle something as weak as a random person pressing a button at you so perhaps it's time to find something you do have enough resilience for."
I could go on.
How is that not exactly what I said? It's just blame shifting. And - yes - when you are defending toxicity by blame shifting, then I'm going to wonder what your motivation is. Are you just being contrarian, or do you have a vested interest?
Anyway, I've wasted enough virtual ink repeating myself endlessly to you so I'm going to go and do something more productive than bang my head against this wall. If you actually want to have a discussion, again, we can - but this is a waste of time.
PS: Don't assume offense on behalf of other people, especially in a thread where you are criticizing people for being 'too soft'. It's...not a good look.
I'm sorry but you are coming across as a troll. I don't believe that's your intention but you're not understanding what other people are saying and you're jumping to conclusions (eg. when you told me I was saying you were defending rudeness and, yet, in the post you quoted I specifically said that you were not condoning rudeness).
To use another example that I used many years ago and I saw you used something similar in another post if people are to argue about if the sky is blue, first, they need to agree on what is the definition of blue. Without agreeing on that basic definition, any discussion is futile. I think that's why you're coming across as ad hominem'ing and using semantics. I don't think that's your intent either; I'm just pointing out why it could be looked at that way in case there's any chance that could help.
He never said that. Like ever. You should check the names over the posts. Seriously. Go check them. My name is cantelope. Whoever said that? I garuntee he is not named cantelope.
Okay, who exactly are we talking about here? Because the person you seem to be referring to with 'he' (the only other person I quoted there) absolutely said those things, you can find them earlier in this thread.
EDIT: Actually, you know what - no. I've already spent way too long getting drawn into this silly derailment. If you want to get back to the discussion at hand then sure, otherwise I'm going to call it.
Cantelope, me. The person you talked to before and are talking to now. Go check my posts in this thread, or hell my history.
I have not nor would ever say dumbshit like that. Also... the he is me... right? I have the same name. I was honestly wondering if you noticed.
Once again. Go back to those posts and see if Cantelope is above it. You'll find I never said any of the ######### you're accusing me of for... three ######### days.
Nope.
Killers have free will, survivors have free will. As long as no one's cheating, that's how it should be. I often punish survivors for their behavior, that's one of the best parts of the game. I don't want them to be nice to me, I'm trying to kill them. It's natural for a team that's getting a rush of "we made it" to celebrate a little. The game was exciting, they're all riled up.
It's also lame. They're literally taunting from complete safety because they're afraid to test their skills, some of them even do the "I'll loop you right here because even if you get me, I can get out. I want to play some more but I'm willing to bet NOTHING on my own abilities." It doesn't take any balls, but survivors usually like it that way.
I don't mind. I prefer they're willing to take another hit so we can both get a few extra points, but it doesn't matter. If a team opens the gates after playing obnoxiously, I don't follow them. I just let them wait while I bust out all the walls/pallets for extra points.
Responding to your edit.
I'm guessing you checked and realized your error huh?
Please people, chill with the personal arguments on this! Discuss the topic at hand and respect other people's opinions who may differ from your own. Calling people "trolls" etc is not conducive to an active discussion and is not wanted on this forum. Respect someone elses point of view and discuss things civilly without resorting to attacking each other please!
"I've been playing games since before the term 'gamer'.
It...wasn't always like this.
This new 'I get to act like a gigantic smelly butt and if you are annoyed by that it's a you problem' is a pretty new phenomenon."
You clearly havent played many FPS games......T bagging has been around for....Longer than you think.