Any reasonable arguments against MMR?
So far there's just three arguments repeated in circle:
- the game is not fun for high skilled players without stomping noobs
- my teammates are as bad as I am now
- the game isn't competitive so MMR doesn't belong here (How exactly MMR is specific for competitive games only? How exactly you differ a competitive game from non-competitive?)
Is there at least one another argument that actually makes sense? So far it looks like people just got used to busted matchmaking and don't want something new.
Comments
Yeah. That’s why I said ‚fair enough‘. But it is also a reasonable argument against current matchmaking and for a change in the system.
Solo survivor was just as bad as it's ever been. Last night I played a match against a fairly weak Legion, and my team didn't do a single generator despite me looping the killer for a long time. I did all five gens and got 4 or 5 saves. At the end he killed two of my teammates, I got put on my first hook, and the third teammate sat in the exit gate waiting for me to die. FUN!
You can still run whatever you want, you just won't have ez 4-man escapes with your Head On against baby killers. Or maybe you will, if you play chill enough.
Oh agreed. I'm just pessimistic about the results.
It's ridiculous to assign a skill rating in a game where game outcomes are often influenced by rng, a slew of technical issues, and people throwing matches to do challenges. For example, we've been having our mmr calculated for months in the background. That means a large amount of people were judged on matches where they'd hit 0 fps for a couple seconds whenever they charged their power or blew several generators because they were given a skill check during a massive lag spike. When the game itself causes you to lose a match, rating your skill based on that is just silly.
Ask devs to tweak high-ranked gameplay then, so it will be less in survivor favour?
It is not an MMR issue.
Arguments against MMR:
1- DbD is a casual game Balanced for low skill level so any tool meant to be helpful for lower skilled player is very exploitable by experienced players. Example DS before the change, meant to help against tunneling and focused for lower skill level since that's where you assume most tunneling will happen but experienced players were using DS offensively,doing gens in killers nose cause they knew they could get away for free and still do their objective.
2- Queues times will be bigger if MMR is very strict, we have public examples of this, so this was changed , while we don't know how we can make an assumption that MMR is either working with lower values, thus keeping all MMR's closer to each other or the search range has been improved which then solves queues times but keeps creating unfair matches, which alot of people are experiencing, especially new players.
3- SWF breaks the fairness that MMR supposedfully offers. You can have 1 member with low MMR to lower the groups average so that they find an easier killer. A 4 Man SWF with 1 weaker link but 3 strong links or a 3 Man SWF and 1 random SoloQ is the same so the 3 Man never lose out, 3 coordinated people is already too much for even the best killer players. And even if the 4th guy is a weaker player the SWF might be on comms so they can always know what happens around that weak link and protect that player.
4- Killer individual MMR is a mistake because you're only taking into account that killer performance not the overall player. Best example is experienced players using newly released killers. The lower MMR on newly released killers would make the system assume you're a new player so you'd face new Survivors too or you would face strong survivors cause all survivors have the same MMR so that would mean experienced players playing new survivor is the same as them using their regular survivor. So there's 2 scenarios, extremely one sided match for killer cause the system thought it was a new player on new killer or extremely 1 sided match for survivors cause new survivor characters don't differ, they are basicly skins, you can just slap your favourite build and use them as you would use your main survivor character while the experienced killer player still has to deal with learning the new killer power. Now yes there are PTb's but that doesn't apply to Console so think about the experience on Console... no way to try or train on new killer besides live matches, you either stomp new survivors ot you get no chance against experienced survivors.
5- DbD is an old moldy spaghetti monster of a code that breaks every time that there's an upddate. Implementing suhc a system in such a flimsy code is asking for problems. Then take into account that MMR predicts matches based on perfect conditions, i'm assuming it won't factor game bugs, glitches, bad servers, etc, etc so if the match ends up different from the expected result how can the system know why the result differed? Maybe someone got caught or escaped because of an FPS drop, maybe a rollback, maybe a bug...
6- RNG and Variables in DbD make predicting match results a nightmare. The system has to assume an outcome even before a Map is Randomly selected and Randomly configured. How is the system accurate if works like this? Not all killers perform the same in every map.
For now this is what i got.
It's hidden, so I have no idea what is considered a "win" by the system and what I should do to get better teammates.
1) Not an MMR issue and not an issue at all. High skilled players are high skilled because they know how to use their tools more effective.
2) Might be an issue or not, we have no evidence that it is happening.
3) The weakest link will raise his MMR until the SWF will be on the fair level, so it's not going to work for a long time.
4) You missed a part of the latest test announcement. Individual MMR for killers is the best thing that could happen with DBD matchmaking.
5 and 6) MMR doesn't "predict" anything. It is a number that increases when you do well and decreases when you do poorly and provides you opponents with a number that's close to yours. So it will decrease when you get unlucky lag and it will increase when you get a lucky map, but on average it will be on the level you deserve.
Also, if you play in soloQ, you will get awful teammates and strong killers, since this crap doesn't work as intended. MMR only works properly for SWFs and killers at the moment.
Dude this mmr is pure ######### as they always give to us. I didn’t played dbd for like 20days and when I played for mmr with billy who I played like 10 games in 3K hours I got against legacy and good survivors good 2 times. Then I decided to try blight cuz I don’t play him as well and I got destroyed once again. When I played nurse I had to sweat the ######### out of me to win all the games. I had no chill. And same as survivor and how the ######### my teammates are still garbage?
1- Yes it does, the matchmaking system has to reflect the Balance of the game. What good is a system based on skill if the game lets you use Broken stuff? then you're not skilled, you're using Broken stuff.
2- Yes we have, we have public records of long queues for high MMR. Want the best example? I'll give you, Dowsey, famous streamer had a nearly 2 hour long queue and he only got a match against an SWF which had to stream snipe him in order for a match to happen. Since then BHVR made changes so like i said, i can only assume they either lowered the values of MMR or increased the range so that matchmaking finds matches within reasonable time.
3- Yes but that happens because that weaker player is being protected by the SWF which means the SWF bypasses MMR. If 3 guys can protect 1 and they get an easier killer because of that then MMR is not working.
4- No it's not and this was changed aswell in the previous test. You now get a partial MMR to avoid experienced players trashing new players. You don't wanna be a new player on Survivor facing a guy like say OTzdarva as your killer just because he is playing the newly released killer and has no MMR on that killer cause it just released. Individual killer MMR is awful. people would swap killers frequently just to get easier matches.
5 and 6- Yes it does, the Devs said so multiple times already. MMR is predicting match outcomes.
Ironically as the quality of my survivor team mates has drastically gone up I've found the games to be far less sweaty, yes the killers are scarier but the game is far more enjoyable when everyone's doing what they should be doing and just playing the matches out properly, even if we lose they are still really good matches.
1) MMR is not supposed to precisely evaluate your skill, it is supposed to give you fair matches whether it is because of perks or your skill.
2) Dowsey had it during the previous test, it means nothing now.
3) See point 1. Again, evaluating the precise number is not the purpose of MMR.
4) You are literally saying "they adressed the problem after previous test, so it is still a problem".
5, 6) Devs present their system in a really messed way. These "Predictions" probably were part of the system validation, when they compared the outcome that was supposed to happen by MMR system and an actual outcome. It has nothing to do with actual matchmaking.
1. People do not want to play competitively all the time and since the system does not seem to take into account external elements, like perks, the game will place you by how you usually play not by your skill.
For instance, if you usually run meme builds you will get lower skilled teammates/killers or survivors cause any higher and you would get stomped. Thus if you decide to play competitively/meta, you will be at a much better advantage. Reverse would happen for people who usually sweat/play the meta, thus removing the ability for them to play off-meta without getting stomped.
This would also be the case if you usually play swf or solo since this is another external element the system does not account for. When playing solo it will still treat you like you are in your swf team you usually play in or vice versa.
2. The lack of an additional competitive or quick play style game mode makes the game a poor choice for MMR due to reasons I listed above as well as the fact that constantly stressing in every single game is not fun. I love competition and probably crave close games more then your average player, cause I get bored with to many easy matches, but even I don't want to stress every game.
If the devs added a quickplay mode without perks or where certain perks were banned to allow for more balanced gameplay then this could solve the issue of having to stress through every match. They could even make this mode more balanced by rotating out certain killers and banning swfs that are larger then duos.
3. (This is more a reason why their current implementation is poor instead of against MMR all together). The lack of visual confirmation of the system, MMR being invisible means you cannot tell if it is working properly or not. You have to go by the feel of the match, which can be heavily impacted by rng and again external factors, like the map. At least making it visible would allow people to say "well I guess that was fair I just played poorly or got a bad map", rather then blaming the system as a whole.
Also, with an invisible system you cannot tell how the system is placing groups; for instance, if I swf with my friend who never plays will we get easy games based on their MMR, very rough one's based on mine, or an average game where if I run the killer we win but if they run them we will lose. Making it visible could allow for people to see how this works. (Personally I would prefer the middle option so people cannot play the system and rank up their MMR by getting used to playing in a swf with someone who can carry them.)
1- So if it's factoring perks then it can't be accurate since i can run any perk in any match, my MMR will be all over the place if i keep switching perks. You don't want the system to work like that. That's not consistant. You need Matchmaking to be Conssitant, that's the sissue here. Matchmaking isn't consistant because ranks mean nothing atm and they want MMr to fix that.
2- Yeah and i told you twice already they had to change it but we don't know how and since thats the case we can't tell how they solved itand what are the implications of that solution so the problem might still happen. This is a problem of us not knowing anything. How manny times has the same bug appeared in DbD after it was supposedly fixed? Manny times. Same can happen with MMR. Even without MMR i've had 17 minute queues and nearly instant queues. There's multiple variables. MMR won't get you an instant match if there's no reasonably matched players to fill that lobby. The system will go on expanding the search range or keeping you in queue until there's people close in MMR. So again you're either waiting or matches aren't being as fair as they should be.
3- Again if MMR is not accurate then why do we want it? Ranks are fine then, there's amazing rank 1 players and less amazing rank 1 players as long as their rank is actually earned then in rank disparity is fine. The problem is when you clearly don't belong in that rank and you got carried. So again if that's how MMR works and how ranks work then why do we want MMR? What's the difference between them then?
Top 8 players in a fighting game tournament are all equally matched however even in such a restricted number of individuals there's those who are superior, doesn't mean the other 7 who aren't the champion aren't crazy good and comparable. They reached top 8 for a reason. Top 8 out of however participants can either be a very small % or a large % if there weren't manny people but the lack of people doesn't have to mean that the quality is also lowered.
4- You said it was fine, i'm telling you why it wasn't fine and why and how they changed it. It will no longer be a problem if they keep it that way. They had it that way for 2 tests and half, they only changed it during the third test. So now with this test is how they get more accurate results on this change. will they keep it or revert? We don't know...
5.6) Buddy they said it is predicting outcomes, if they didn't meant to say that then it's their fault BUT IT's what they said. Take it with a grain of salt but if it is trying to predict then it's a very erroneous prediction because of the RNG involved and external factors like Servers, connections, bugs, etc, etc. The game works on basis of 2 escape and 2 get sacrificed. MMR has to make a match with 5 comparable MMRs to be fair right? So then the MMR has to predict which of the 4 survivors die to keep the Balance of 2 die and 2 escape and then given the result it will assign new MMR values based on the outcome. This is the most basic way MMR can work in DbD There's another way which could be by predicting your BP again based on the MMR values of everyone in the match and your tracked record. If you're averaging 25k BP then the system assigns you an MMR and in the lobby it will compare your BP based MMR to the other survivors and predict if you escape or not. Getting 25k BP and dying is a bold prediction, it can happen but you're only 7k away from max BP so it's likely that you've done well enough to predict a survival.
1) this is such an RNG reliable game that there is no way an MMR system could properly work.
2) the balance goal the devs have (2 - 2) is horrendous, as balancing around kills ignores away everything happening in the midst of a trial, meaning that you might be having the worst ever ingame experience, but since the killer got two players and the other two escapes thats perfectly fine and balanced and nothing needs to be done about it - at least thats the current MMRs logic on how to balance your matches.
3) high MMR DbD is about the worst experience you can have. MMR is going to make many who got to that point leave out of frustration (me for example) - more elaboration on why that is above in 2).
just accept this is not a competetive game and stop demanding the devs to make it one - because for as long as RNG is playing such a heavie role in this game there is no way this could ever be considered "competetive".
literally the only good argument FOR MMR is, that solo q players can finally get teammates who dont sit behind a rock for the first 20 minutes of a trial.
The only problem I have with SBMM is that how does the game calculate add-ons, if at all? Cause I am performing much MUCH better with the best add-ons on a killer than having no add-ons equipped.
I could technically use the best add-ons 40 times in a row on my Spirit and wreck survivors. Would then the game consider me high skill? Cause I ain't a good Spirit, it's just the add-ons that made me get the 4k so easy. Then I would have a lot of games in a row where I verse against really good survivors without any add-ons and then they would wreck me then. So SBMM would, for me, end up in a wreck fest for both sides.
To be fair that same problem applies to the current format as well, but I still would like to see something being done about how add-ons can affect killrate and therefore the skill rating.
to seperate new players that dont have a clue ######### they are doing from more experienced ones that know how the mechanics work?
balancing around individual skill is nearly impossible in this game though. you can be the best survivor / killer in the world, if things like map RNG decide to screw you over, you lose.
thats got nothing to do with your opponents playing better than you, thats just RNG deciding you lose that match. how is MMR gonna take that into account? - it wont. it'll just see "you went down quickly and then died on 1st hook, therefore you were clearly outskilled this game" - even though all that happened was you spawning in a huge deadzone and then being facecamped by a leatherface.
but you know what?
how about a compromise?
you get your MMR system you are so keen on having and i get to keep my normal DbD - by introducing a competetive and casual mode. in contrast to one another, casual mode is going to be DbD the way it currently is (maybe with some smaller tweaks - the current ranking system isnt perfect), while competetive is going to have MMR active and some ranking rewards for competetive exclusive ranks.
that way you can go play your competetive DbD while i can enjoy my casual DbD.
The people who stay out will play less and if those player were pick for the high mmr match they wont be there so now the issue will be the game have less killer for the demand so for faster matchmaking they will go pick in the medium mmr match now those player will get destroy if they dont have fun they are more likely to quit and like that the game could eventually die. This is a possible scenario specially with balance we have now and i cant trust the dev to react fast enough to fix the issue
I'm none of those things and against mmr
You have a point for the sweaty tryhards, but there are actually some killers who are just generally very good at the game and dont use all the slowdowns, OP add ons, super strong killers. so they get matched with sweaty tryhards alot, which is sad because i dont mind losing at all to a generally good player.
its the sweaty tryhard lords who use all the meta every single game, for any killer or survivor etc that im glad they go up against other sweatlords more often.
Want some arguments? Here there are some :
The game doesnt give you any infos about what is à win or à loss, and thus you cannot know if you rank up or not, leading to an unfun playstyle
-Many killers dont have what it takes to catch up on high MMR survivors shenanigans and will be abandonned past à certain point
-the game contains an insane amount of RNG (tiles, totems, bugs, and more) which can drastically change the outcome of à match (it isnt the same to fight à Nurse on Lery then on Mcmilan then on the swamp for instance)
-Survivors still can controll certain element of the game (maps chosen, hook distance whoch can create hook deadzones on certain map like Hawkins)
-being in a constent way of tryhard/sweating will come sooner or later
-MMR can still be abused and get bad survivors matches with good killers (or the other way around) if it isnt done correctly
I think these should help
And why?
The game has too many RNG and balance issues to have competitive matchmaking system.
The game isn't designed to be a competitive esport and SHOULD NOT try to be. Tournament DBD is a terrible goal for matchmaking and makes games boring as hell on both sides. Similar games (Evolve) failed in part due to the mentality of forcing comp play in this genre.
It is not as hard as you think
There are things that are extremely strong in high ranks that don't affect low ranks that much.
Rank 10 survivor uses Dead Hard to dodge a hit and be downed 5 seconds later
Rank 1 uses Dead Hard to cover his only mistake in god loop after looping the killer for 2 minutes then drops a pallet and loops him for 2 minutes more
Rank 10 survivor is repairing a gen in a building on Haddonfield, sees a killer, jumps in a window and runs away
Rank 1 survivor is repairing a gen in a building on Haddonfield, sees a killer, jumps in a window, runs to the corner of the building, waits to see if the killer is following, then runs upstairs again and then repeats it again
You can actually see how it works on RPD: new survivors struggle to find gens and die, experienced survivors know where the god loops are and how to abuse the size of this map, so the map is beneficial for them
Also, if you remove NOED, killrate in low ranks will go down, so you can adjust gen time if you want or give killers other general gameplay buffs
Well, they know how to create map tiles. So they know how to take the RNG away. A tournament mode could be perfectly balanced, IF the devs want to create one.
They don't. They're just scared of the unknown, and bandwagoning.
Personally, I love the new system and feel it's actually giving me much more fun and engrossing games against tough opponents, and has actually boosted my confidence in my ability since I'm hanging with absolutely devastating players!
So this is more a devil's advocate comment than anything, but this is a possible issue: The data was based on several months of analysis during a time of uneven matchmaking. Therefore, by that logic, the data the MMR is working on would be tainted and possibly flawed because of this. Also, take into account those who derank on purpose, or those who mess about for fun, getting high scores which the MMR will recognise as true skill, when in fact it wasn't.
For the MMR to be balanced, the data needs to be honest, and I'll wager that current data is skewed due to the various factors.
However, give it time and it will ultimately balance. In all honesty, BHVR just needs to let it run a lot longer to gather better quality data to work with and ultimately balance it out. That way, people may have a rude awakening, but then it'll balance into a more comfortable system.
Until the 16th.
For me the problem with mmr it's just when you tried to play with your main killer, you play against too good surviver
I get paired with people who do nothing all game while I do gens and I end up being left on hook. I die having more points than the other survivors and they have the courage to say I was the worst one on the team.
I prefer when we went off ranks instead of some invisible number that we have no idea what it is. We got at least SOME form of information about what the skill level was of the other players at the end, and ranks were somewhat consistent. With this You either steamroll or get steam rolled, there is zero in between. "Skill based matchmaking" more like "We'll throw these guys together for no reason"
thx ^^
Sorry this is BS, ever game I have had is survs body blocking, using torchs, DS, Borrowed, god loops etc. Since MMR been on its been a slug fest and only way to win was be a twat really
Its a sweatfest and my main/best killer, can't compete.
I already knew that current billy is not viable against good survivor, now i could experience it in several games.
Playing with billy against 4 good survivor (from 4000- to 9000 hours in their steamprofile) on new coldwind or haddonfield, they are stacked with metaperks and items (insta heal, styptic) i get like 2-3 hooks in a game, and i feel that i do really good lol.
I think that the high mmr players will eventually only face nurse, blight and spirit (if they fix her bug) because the other killer just can't compete.
It is still somewhat fun for some time, however if it really comes to the point where you only face sweaty top tier killers as a high rank survivor most of the time, i would quit the game (i play both sides).
I am none of these (i do stream, but average 1 viewer lets go)
BHVR needs to fix the high ranks before implementing this.
The way I see it is people complain simply because they can. Here are some
Rainbow ranks was one and people complained because they either had to carry other survivors or some died far too quickly which led to the others dying too. Green and yellow ranks also getting matched with purple and red rank killers.
Ranking system is/was busted, too easy to rank up and much harder to rank down which led to a lot of people complaining people were getting to red ranks and dragging the other survivors down with their noobish ways of playing.
Killers were getting matches that had players who seemed very new and getting kills too quickly, which are boring games, or absolute sweatfests with players way above their skill level. There was barely any in-between, although you could get lucky and have a string of fair matches, and a lot of complaints came from that direction.
People complained about afk killers. Why did they afk? Some of them anyway. To get the heck out of red ranks where they knew they did not belong. Do you have any idea how demoralising it is to have countless 0k games with survivors t-bagging and/or bullying the less skilled killer who was stuck there because they kept safety pipping. Another complaint about the ranking system from killers here too.
There are many, many more complaints, that are not to do with bugs and performance issues, but this post is already long enough. It is my reasoning that sbmm will fix this for the majority of players.
I am a killer main but I do play survivor for my rift challenges. As survivor my matches evened out after the first 5 or 6 sacrifices and my killer games jumped about a bit at first, from hard matches to easy ones before balancing out with nemesis. I want sbmm to be implemented as soon as possible and then they can look into ways of balancing higher level sbmm. My thoughts are lower points earned/more points lost at high levels to reduce the amount of sweatfests the players have to contend with before getting a few chill matches to play and take respite for a bit. Keep in mind though that the more competitive, more sweatier you play as either role will put you right back into the place that is being complained about.
Could you be more specific on your experience? Because i suspect, that it varies greatly from mine.
Mine was:
Solo Survivor ~ Good teammates, never even saw the Killer in several of my games. When I did get chased, they were decent, but were losing gens fast.
Killer ~ I've never played Billy in a public match but got good Survivors instantly. I play Spirit occasionally and got people with under 300 hours. I tried playing Blight but got to the point where it was legitimately impossible for me to win. I even had someone look over the stream and they agreed with me. Nemesis featured much of the same thing, as did Wraith.
Are Blight, Nemesis and Wraith your mains?
No.
I play Wraith, Myers, Ghostface, Huntress (starting), Doc, Clown, Spirit, Legion, Oni, Demo, Deathslinger, Blight and Nemesis.
So you do play regularly with Blight, Nemesis and Wraith. This might be why the mmr puts your skill with them higher.
its exhausting to sweat every match.
i like challanges but i also like chill games in between. on both roles.
This game is too unbalanced
game is not ocmpetitive but everybody play with a competitive mentality
It is impossible to fly in the sky.
Just because you don't know how to do it, it doesn't mean it is nearly impossible.
Lets see if the devs release some information on the outcome of this test.