You cannot want spirit/nurse nerfed but not survivors.
There are 2 fundamental ideas about this game that constantly get thrown around.
Spirit and nurse have no counterplay and need to be nerfed.
This game should not be balanced around high level players.
Spirit and nurse have threads all the time about how they need to be nerfed. Saying the game shouldn't be balanced around high level play is usually the survivor's rallying call when killers point out how broken survivors become at the top level. Tru3talent and others often post videos showing how they can counter spirit. The argument against those is always "but that spirit is bad"
So now comes the fundamental problem that demonstrates a cognitive dissonance.
If the game SHOULD NOT be balanced around high level players, then nurse and spirit should not be nerfed. The argument from people about spirit players is that she has no counterplay. Whenever someone shows a video or a game where a spirit gets dominated by survivors, they always say "But that spirit is bad". Nurse is by far the worst killer in the game (by the stats the last time they were released) https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/DBD-Red-ranks.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&dpr=1.5 Given that, since these stats were released they buffed, clown, demo, and wraith, it stands to reason that they think that killers below that need to be buffed. Nurse is by far the worst in the game based on these statistics due to the fact that, in average player's hands, she is terrible. Thus, she needs massive buffs, right?
If the game SHOULD be balanced around high level players, then nurse and spirit, should not be nerfed. High level tournament players constantly go against nurse spirit, and sometimes blight and hag. And yet they still seem to be able to win the majority of the time. If that is the case, then EVERY killer needs to be buffed (or survivors nerfed), because at high level play survivors dominate and everyone knows it.
So, which is it? Should the game be balanced around high level players or not? In either case, nurse and spirit should not be nerfed.
Comments
I obviously hit a nerve.
They should just give spirit nurse treatment and make her hard to play, while not nerfing her overall strength
Spirit is hard to play against good survivors. The survivors who complain spirit op run in a straight line or try 1 mindgame over and over. And nurse is the same thing she's hard to play against good survivors who actually mix up their movement unfortunately casuals want braindead gameplay.
If they nerf nurse again I'm out.
I think that’s why devs won’t touch spirit. There are only a handful of viable killers in red ranks and if 1 of them gets pushed down, it’s gonna make queue times worse which in turn hurts their wallets.
Again I’m going to hate myself for saying this but most people that want Spirit or Nurse nerfed have probably never played as them or if they have they likely haven’t faced many above average survivors.
I can’t believe I’m defending the Spirit... for the second time in one week.. what have I become😔
Hahahahaha. I love this. Have my upvote!!!
If we nerf nurse and spirit because, if played by good players, theyre too strong against bad survivors, then we must nerf survivors because, if played by good players, theyre too strong against weak killers or bad nurses/spirits.
Cant have the balance design only apply to one side.
Nurse's kit is designed to be difficult so having a lower kill rate for majority of people playing her is an expected outcome, I imagine with those stats they break them down even farther to see how the top nurse player performs and since she hasn't been buffed I assume the kit designed to be difficult to use is performing just fine when the player is good.
counterplay =/= nerf
Spirit does have counterplay, Tru3talent regularly posts videos of him winning against spirits and how to do it. The community's argument against that is always "that spirit was bad" But, if that is the case, then we should be nerfing survivors, because then we'd be balance around high level players and not average players, right? You can't have it both ways.
Anyone can win against bad spirits.
Predropping pallets works for all killers (except nurse), and will likely kill everyone unless you're swf.
I hate the whole "you can only beat a bad x". It implies an issue with people good at the game winning.
Spirit needs a nerf. Nurse, who is admittedly stronger, doesn't. As for what you mean by "nerfing survivors", I'd need specific examples of what you had in mind before knowing if I'd agree or not.
KILLERS are NERFED around high level play and SURVIVORS are BUFFED around casual play.
Nurse will never terrorize lower level survivors, but she was nerfed anyways because the best of the best players absolutely dominated with her.
Buffing survivors based around casuals only further OVERPOWERS them in the hands in the best players. We've seen countless examples of the killer NOT BEING THE POWER ROLE. Depip squad proved that, SWF proved that, and the fact that even sometimes, RANDOM SOLO prove that.
The only REAL issue here is MATCHMAKING. Potatoes are BOOSTED to red ranks and that gives the appearance of killers being stronger than they actually are. The only time survivors LOSE, is when they don't feel like winning.
Tru3talent's example of counterplay "good read, bad read" I too saw his video just saying that and never actually gave an example all he said was "good read, bad read"
Nobody is asking for a Nurse nerf. She has counter play. Not so much against a God Nurse, but then you simply got out played.
As for Spirit, I'd say most people don't want a nerf. At least not exactly. Rather they want some indication she's phasing so she has meaningful counterplay.
You are probably just speaking of a video he played against one, he has several where he actually talks about the strategy of what you do, and then he has videos where he executes on that strategy.
Counterplay is just a thinly veiled way of saying "nerf"
Not sure everyone knows it, I see tons of people here that think the game is rigged in favor of killers.
Literally every content creator says this is true. Even the ones people love.
If i have not totally missread your post, i dont get your logic at all.
If we want this game to be ballanced for the average player - then Nurse and Spirit have to get nerfed, since they are to strong for the average player. Top tier killer are ballanced for Top tier survivors. Average killer are ballanced for average survivor. Pretty simply, right?
A decent Spirit is still much stronger then a decent Doctor for example.
This is well said. You're spot on about Spirit.
I don't know about Nurse. The last thing she needs is a nerf that makes the killer with the lowest win rate worse. I just wish she was balanced a bit better.
Hard agree, it's getting to be quite disgusting how hard tournaments are nerfing survivors just to keep it on an even playing field with top spirit, nurse and blight killers. In BOTB current tourney rules were 2 unique perks, now current popular ruleset is to only have 1 unique perks(each survivor must have different exhaustions), max of yellow rarity items, only one type of item, can't open chests in the match, max yellow rarity addons, must open one gate within a limited time after finishing gens(can't 99 it for long),
No, because in the hands of the average player, nurse is the worst killer in the game. The statistics show that. That is my point. So, by that logic, if we balance the game around the average player instead of the best, we need to buff nurse. If we balance around high level players, nurse is actually fine since her win rate in high levels is still very low. Tournament play shows only 1 or 2 killers are even viable, let alone overpowered.
Well, if this is statisticly the case, then there are 2 things to do: Nerf the Nurse but make her easier to play.
No, nerf means nerf. If having it where there is an even chance to counter her is a nerf then she wasn't balanced properly to begin with.
What survivor buffs have their been recently?
Incorrect. I'm following the logic here. Here are the stats as they released a while back:
Since these stats were released, the following major changes have happened: Freddy and Billy have been nerfed, Demo, Wraith and clown were buffed. It stands to reason that somewhere between billy and wraith is what they consider to be "balanced" But looking at this nurse is statistically BY FAR the worst killer.
If we are balancing the game around the average players, she needs to be buffed.
Most recently? Probably the franklin's nerf for keys.
Explain any type of counterplay you could possibly imagine you give spirit that does not make her inherently weaker. I'll wait.
Which will hopefully be a moot point once they actually rework keys, but changing franklins isn't a buff to survivors, lol.
Yeah, maybe like 5 years later. They nerfed moris like a year ago at this point?
Not that it matters, not gonna engage on this anymore, my main point is the logic train posted. Either the game should or should not be balanced around high level players. Which do you think it is?
8th of December, I think maybe you should wear a watch or something.
The use of keys is heavily exaggerated on the forums though so.
Ah, my bad, only 7 months, that is so much better.....
Last time i post on this though. Please answer my question.
I'm curious about your interpretation of game and character balance.
If Nurse has the lowest kill rate, but is the best killer when played at the highest level, is that balanced?
In her current state, going off of the statistics, is she balanced?
@Reinami
They aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to be a high level spirit to whack on stridor and kill a bunch of survivors, you do have to not be bad though, your thought train doesn't make much sense.
You literally changed your post as I was replying so.
Well again... when she is to weak because she is so difficult, she needs to be changed so she is easier to play to fit for the average player.
Said that, 57% is still above average.
I believe the game should be balanced around the highest level players. So i think that in that mind that nurse and spirit are the only viable killers, and survivors as a whole probably need to be nerfed, while those 2 killers nerfed as well and then buff the worst killers as we move along.
The point i'm making is that, there are 2 philosophies at play here. Should the game be balanced around the highest level players or the average? If the average, then that logic demands that nurse be buffed. If the highest players, that logic demands that survivors be nerfed.
This post is about highlighting the hypocrisy people exhibit when talking about this. Whenever i bring up how insane survivors are at the highest level, i get told "the game shouldn't be balanced around them" but then those same people go and make threads and complain about spirit and to a lesser extend nurse. I'm merely pointing out, that by following their logic to it's ultimate conclusion, you must buff nurse.
I'm confused as to what the hell is supposed to be talked about in this thread
Nurse is fine as is, spirit i can give or take but survivors have been nerfed repeatedly for years. Killer has never been easier
True that 57% is above 50% the average. But in that same chart, they buffed clown, wraith and demo. All 3 are killers who are above nurse in that kill rate. Logic would dictate that they felt those 3 killers were too weak and made changes to them. Thus logic would dictate every killer below wraith (the highest kill rate one that was buffed) must also be underpowered and need a buff.
Read the post right above yours.
Nurse doesn't need a nerf. Spirit however, oh boy...
Only good spirits can do well though. Thus the ultimate point of this thread.
His post isn't rocket science....but you need to re-read it.
I also missed it, but after re-reading HIS post, it shows pretty heavily which direction his bias lies right? By saying that "Nurse and spirit are too strong for the average player" he is coming at it from the survivor perspective, and not thinking about "Nurse and spirit in the HANDS of the average player"
Since there aren't enough viable Killer choices at red ranks a possible change could be giving Spirit a clearer annimation when she cloaks, and decreasing the cloak CD.
The game should be balanced around high level play...point blank...period. Just for pure logical reasons you're dealing with human beings. Which in any GAME at high level WILL ABSOLUTELY without fail use every exploit and advantage to win the game. Developers can't make logical balance changes to MMOs or any other game if they only look at statistics and playstyles of people who've only reached level 10 and are still fighting Pigs in the starting area. Same applies to MOBA's, competative shooters, etc.
If your END GAME isn't balanced you effectively DON'T HAVE A GAME.
The amount of copium people discuss about balance changes runs completely contradictory to any other game they would usually play. And the only reason people bother running contradictions as such, is because the devs of this game have already let the window open to be swayed by bad balance threads and decisions. So you end up with a buncha dumb threads, with dumb takes from people who've played the game for a month or 2, and haven't thought any deeper into their own play habits or skill level. When I was new some of my takes were dumb as hell as well. Up until you get the experience and play the game at a high level a lot of what people say is pure garbage because they haven't sat down and thought about anything past the Queue button.
Tac on BHVR's garbage matchmaking and all these guys running tournaments have to adjust the rules to make up for how shoddy this games been thought out.
In the short run, the balance decisions are annoying. In the long run, the balance decisions are a retention killer. Seen it before with Evolve, Seen it before with DeathGarden, saw it with The Predator, Aliens vs game, the list goes on and those games are no longer around/dead.
Player vs player games should always be balanced around end game players...period. League, HoTS, Dota, CS-GO, Modern Warfare, WoW, etc etc etc. Those games PVP and communities didn't go anywhere and lasted as long as they did because devs were aware of how their game operated in the best of hands. And would even make nerfs based on those things. Even if they wanted this game to be casual, they would still have to balance around people who weren't casual who can abuse the methods of the game to pretty much break it.
In our case, it dose not really matter what devs think and do, because we are talking about "our" philosophy off this game and your statement. If we wanna bring this game to an average level, according to the stats, we would be forced to nerf the Nurse, and even more every other killer.
Last but not least i want to add that like i said, it would be much more healthy if hard killers like Nurse would be changed so average players could handle her better and then nerf her. Thats how good ballance work in my opinion - not relying that a killer is to difficult in general - IF we assume we want this game to be for average people.