You cannot want spirit/nurse nerfed but not survivors.

Reinami

There are 2 fundamental ideas about this game that constantly get thrown around.

Spirit and nurse have no counterplay and need to be nerfed.

This game should not be balanced around high level players.

Spirit and nurse have threads all the time about how they need to be nerfed. Saying the game shouldn't be balanced around high level play is usually the survivor's rallying call when killers point out how broken survivors become at the top level. Tru3talent and others often post videos showing how they can counter spirit. The argument against those is always "but that spirit is bad"

So now comes the fundamental problem that demonstrates a cognitive dissonance.

If the game SHOULD NOT be balanced around high level players, then nurse and spirit should not be nerfed. The argument from people about spirit players is that she has no counterplay. Whenever someone shows a video or a game where a spirit gets dominated by survivors, they always say "But that spirit is bad". Nurse is by far the worst killer in the game (by the stats the last time they were released) https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/DBD-Red-ranks.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&dpr=1.5 Given that, since these stats were released they buffed, clown, demo, and wraith, it stands to reason that they think that killers below that need to be buffed. Nurse is by far the worst in the game based on these statistics due to the fact that, in average player's hands, she is terrible. Thus, she needs massive buffs, right?

If the game SHOULD be balanced around high level players, then nurse and spirit, should not be nerfed. High level tournament players constantly go against nurse spirit, and sometimes blight and hag. And yet they still seem to be able to win the majority of the time. If that is the case, then EVERY killer needs to be buffed (or survivors nerfed), because at high level play survivors dominate and everyone knows it.

So, which is it? Should the game be balanced around high level players or not? In either case, nurse and spirit should not be nerfed.

Reinami

@PigMainBigBrain said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2332215#Comment_2332215

The game should be balanced around high level play...point blank...period. Just for pure logical reasons you're dealing with human beings. Which in any GAME at high level WILL ABSOLUTELY without fail use every exploit and advantage to win the game. Developers can't make logical balance changes to MMOs or any other game if they only look at statistics and playstyles of people who've only reached level 10 and are still fighting Pigs in the starting area. Same applies to MOBA's, competative shooters, etc.

If your END GAME isn't balanced you effectively DON'T HAVE A GAME.

The amount of copium people discuss about balance changes runs completely contradictory to any other game they would usually play. And the only reason people bother running contradictions as such, is because the devs of this game have already let the window open to be swayed by bad balance threads and decisions. So you end up with a buncha dumb threads, with dumb takes from people who've played the game for a month or 2, and haven't thought any deeper into their own play habits or skill level. When I was new some of my takes were dumb as hell as well. Up until you get the experience and play the game at a high level a lot of what people say is pure garbage because they haven't sat down and thought about anything past the Queue button.

Tac on BHVR's garbage matchmaking and all these guys running tournaments have to adjust the rules to make up for how shoddy this games been thought out.

In the short run, the balance decisions are annoying. In the long run, the balance decisions are a retention killer. Seen it before with Evolve, Seen it before with DeathGarden, saw it with The Predator, Aliens vs game, the list goes on and those games are no longer around/dead.

Player vs player games should always be balanced around end game players...period. League, HoTS, Dota, CS-GO, Modern Warfare, WoW, etc etc etc. Those games PVP and communities didn't go anywhere and lasted as long as they did because devs were aware of how their game operated in the best of hands. And would even make nerfs based on those things. Even if they wanted this game to be casual, they would still have to balance around people who weren't casual who can abuse the methods of the game to pretty much break it.

I agree, my point of this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of people who say that it shouldn't be.

Reinami

@xEa said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2332197#Comment_2332197

In our case, it dose not really matter what devs think and do, because we are talking about "our" philosophy off this game and your statement. If we wanna bring this game to an average level, according to the stats, we would be forced to nerf the Nurse, and even more every other killer.

Last but not least i want to add that like i said, it would be much more healthy if hard killers like Nurse would be changed so average players could handle her better and then nerf her. Thats how good ballance work in my opinion - not relying that a killer is to difficult in general - IF we assume we want this game to be for average people.

My philosophy is that the game should be balanced around high level players in general i think what you say about nurse is true. I'm a nurse main, and i generally 4k more than 90% of may games. I think she needs a complete rework. But i also think that this game needs to be fixed such that survivors don't completely dominate (with the exception of nurse) at the highest level. My point of this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of the general people who think the game should be balanced around average players. Those same people, will claim that nurse and spirit need nerfs. When, if you follow their logic, nurse actually needs buffs.

DrewpyCheekz

survivors don't need a nerf at all. not saying killers do, but the kill rate across the entire game with every killer at all ranks is still like 75%. throw the part of the community that put up with killer's lack of consideration a bone.

Reinami

@DrewpyCheekz said:

survivors don't need a nerf at all. not saying killers do, but the kill rate across the entire game with every killer at all ranks is still like 75%. throw the part of the community that put up with killer's lack of consideration a bone.

That's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about the top players, the ones who play tournaments. It's pretty clear which side is the dominate one when you look at those.

Reinami

You can't have it both ways.

danielmaster87

Nurse is the worst killer in the game?!

Killing_Time

@Shooby said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2332176#Comment_2332176

I'm curious about your interpretation of game and character balance.

If Nurse has the lowest kill rate, but is the best killer when played at the highest level, is that balanced?

In her current state, going off of the statistics, is she balanced?

@Reinami

No it's not because they nerfed RUIN (based on high level play) because noobs couldn't overcome it. Nurse was also nerfed (based on extremely high level play) while also locking out noobs from learning her.

Ruin was NERFED (survivor buff) based on CASUALS not being able to git gud and Nurse was NERFED based around the top .01% of play.

Reinami

@danielmaster87 said:

Nurse is the worst killer in the game?!

Per the last released statistics, yes.

Shooby

@Killing_Time said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2332186#Comment_2332186

No it's not because they nerfed RUIN (based on high level play) because noobs couldn't overcome it. Nurse was also nerfed (based on extremely high level play) while also locking out noobs from learning her.

Ruin was NERFED (survivor buff) based on CASUALS not being able to git gud and Nurse was NERFED based around the top .01% of play.

I honestly have no idea what you're getting at. I was interested in talking about whether Nurse is balanced properly.

If you want to talk about Ruin so much, you should at least admit it is much more balanced now after its rework, not nerf...

Lx_malice

Hey I'm not trying to call you out or devalue your post by any means, but I thought you were someone who advocated for Nurse nerfs as a Nurse player because you really did think she was too strong. I could be wrong and have you mistaken for someone else, but if not I'm curious on why the change of heart?

Again not trying to call you out or anything I'm literally a Nurse main myself. Just curious.

Reinami

@Lx_malice said:

Hey I'm not trying to call you out or devalue your post by any means, but I thought you were someone who advocated for Nurse nerfs as a Nurse player because you really did think she was too strong. I could be wrong and have you mistaken for someone else, but if not I'm curious on why the change of heart?

Again not trying to call you out or anything I'm literally a Nurse main myself. Just curious.

You didn't read me post very clearly did you? I'm calling out the hypocrisy on this board. Whenever someone talks about how survivors at the highest level, as proven by tournament play and depip squads, are far more powerful than killers are, the response is always "We shouldn't balance the game around high level, those are really rare". So, i'm stating that by that logic, if we balance the game for average players, then we need to look at the stats, and based on that nurse is the worst killer in the game and needs buffs.

ukenicky

Literally who has been asking for Nurse nerfs lately?

My problem with Spirit is that she takes so much less effort to get good with and be absolutely oppressive and that feels insulting to people who put time and effort into mastering Nurse. Don't get me wrong, Spirit still requires good tracking but compared to Nurse she's infinitely more easy and that's why people use her.

She doesn't need major nerfing but her add-ons are broken (Namely the decreased Phase Activation time ones). I believe she could receive minor changes and still be S tier but my god something needs to be addressed about her because she isn't fun or engaging to play against

Verconissp

@ilovedbd123 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2331617#Comment_2331617

My advice for a nerf:

Ways to tell when (not where) she is phasing so stand still mindgame/passive phasing doesn't ######### you over.

Cooldown of power is a lot longer.

Faster in phase,

Bring back collision

That'll kill her.

Longer cd? you tryna make her a legion 2.0?

Faster in phase? You tryna make her like blight?

Bring back collision? What is this 2019?!

Ways to tell when phasing? Bring a flashlight and shine it on her phase. you stop her from phasing literally if you blind her

Exxodus21

Spirit is fine the way she is, add-ons and all. People refuse to change their playstyle based on which killer they're facing, then cry the killer was oppressive or boring/unfun.

Personally I love going against good Nurses and Spirits because you have to actually think about what you're doing and stay ready to run or hide at a moment's notice. And every chase is more involved than simply running in circles around a pallet until you throw it and run to the next pallet to run circles around.

Killing_Time

@Exxodus21 said:

Spirit is fine the way she is, add-ons and all. People refuse to change their playstyle based on which killer they're facing, then cry the killer was oppressive or boring/unfun.

Personally I love going against good Nurses and Spirits because you have to actually think about what you're doing and stay ready to run or hide at a moment's notice. And every chase is more involved than simply running in circles around a pallet until you throw it and run to the next pallet to run circles around.

The sad part, is the devs will...

cave!

Viktor1853

@Exxodus21 said:

Spirit is fine the way she is, add-ons and all. People refuse to change their playstyle based on which killer they're facing, then cry the killer was oppressive or boring/unfun.

Personally I love going against good Nurses and Spirits because you have to actually think about what you're doing and stay ready to run or hide at a moment's notice. And every chase is more involved than simply running in circles around a pallet until you throw it and run to the next pallet to run circles around.

yep

Verconissp

@ilovedbd123 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2338533#Comment_2338533

How would it "kill her"?

She would be more powerful with her power but more punishing when using it and missing.

You try and equate her to other killers, but other killers don't get to be invisible with no way of seeing where they are. Even Freddy intermittently blinks in and out of vision. Spirit you just get a loud woooosh if she's around 40m away.

Legion, a fairly weak killer, only gets a movement speed buff and the ability to vault pallets (useful in the 1v1, fairly useless in the 4v1 unless survivors group or good rng for killer), blight doesn't have the manoeuvrability that spirit has in her phase + he needs to bounce off objects makeing certain loops impossible to mindgame.

Spirit is more powerful than both of these even with this tweak. It would give her the ability to detect people by walking into them and yet punish her for bad plays (longer CD).

From what I can see from your post, you just either don't want her changed because you enjoy her (totally understandable, but that doesn't change how bs she can be) or you just want to play devils advocate.

I will say this just because it feels necessary- I play more killer than survivor, but still nearing 50/50 for both. This isn't some survivor main hoping to destroy her once and for all, this is just someone hoping she has some punishment for misplays other than a 15s cooldown timer (base)

Her power is unique in a way. thats why..

Touching Anything in her kit would hurt her..

and no. i don't like playing spirit due to me preferring blight than others,

i just don't want to see posts like this in general because of how bad it can hurt a killer.

Just one small change is a huge difference, and this is Behavior we're talking about.

Lx_malice

@Reinami said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2338297#Comment_2338297

You didn't read me post very clearly did you? I'm calling out the hypocrisy on this board. Whenever someone talks about how survivors at the highest level, as proven by tournament play and depip squads, are far more powerful than killers are, the response is always "We shouldn't balance the game around high level, those are really rare". So, i'm stating that by that logic, if we balance the game for average players, then we need to look at the stats, and based on that nurse is the worst killer in the game and needs buffs.

Yea that's not what I meant though.

I do agree with your post, but I wouldn't want to give the impression that I don't by questioning you further. So I won't. Maybe some other time.