Camping, Tunneling, and slugging should never be punished
Without changing the core mechanics of the game, or changing how the game works entirely, you cannot get rid of camping, tunneling, and slugging or punish it. The way the game works just will not allow the outright deletion of any of the three strategies listed above. Punishing these strategies will also not work either, and they shouldn't be.
And no, adding perks that mitigate them will also not help since they can be abused and create imbalances. Perks like BT should honestly not even exist.
- You can't implement a system that punishes killers for camping because they already are the killer is de-ranked the more they do it. Even then, they are few and far in between. It doesn't make sense to nerf it or get rid of it because it is generally a very bad strategy. If you die to a hardcore camping killer, it is safe to say that it was probably your fault.
- You can't implement a system that punishes killers for tunneling because that is just straight up donkey doo doo right there, no offense to your donkey bois Karu. If you punish tunneling, you are literally punishing the killer for doing their job. That is like punishing survivors for constantly focusing on generators ("geN RuShInG"), it is dumb.
- You can't implement a mechanic such as a free unbreakable for survivors to use if they have been slugged for a minute. It is one of the few strategies that a killer can use to their advantage and nerfing this would nerf all killers, and therefore encourage camping and tunneling more. And in the very rare circumstance that you are being slugged to death, you are only going to wait 4 minutes, it is not that big of a deal. Allowing survivors to get up after a minute would also encourage splitting up more since the survivor could get themself up without any help, therefore making survivors less dependent on other survivors.
- Sometimes the killer has to resort to camping, tunneling, or slugging as well in some situations. Nerfing any of these strategies makes the killer helpless which should not be the case when you are playing the power role in this game.
So while I do think that you should never punish hardcore camping or tunneling, I do think that BHVR can encourage strategies that are more fun, as well as a whole bunch of other things.
They could somehow reward killers for 12 hooking survivors, they could (they need to) buff weaker killers to the point of "A" or "B" tier (and be fun to play as and against), they could also reward survivors more for playing better as well. Survivors could be encouraged to go for all kinds of playstyles such as taking aggro, doing gens, or (maybe, if done right) stealthing.
I think that survivors should be rewarded with more points. If survivors were awarded with more points for doing well, it would also make survivors feel much better if they died. If you do well all game and die, you still did very well, you just happened to die because the killer was good (probably).
Thoughts?
Comments
You're ignoring everything to get to that point; The Killer should not be punished for 'camping' when two people are clearly waiting for an unhook.
Why are Survivors so thick that they can't understand this? All they think is 'Camping = bad!' and that every unhook = good, so forcing free unhooks is perfectly balanced. Because they benefit.
The Killer is a player, his goal is to kill you. To. Kill. You. TO KILL YOU.
Should I say it slower? TOOOOO KILLLLLL YOUUUUUU.
So no, he should not be punished because you don't like HOW he is trying to, and say it with me: TO 👏 KILL 👏 YOU 👏.
This is as stupid as Killers demanding Survivors get punished for doing gens; it's the objective. The other side, being biased, does not decide how you do it.
Git fregging gud.
Hey, if that's considered abuse of the anti-camping measure, can we also have killers forced to declare they're approaching you when they have undetectable? Since it's kinda abusing undetectable if you sneak up on someone undetected.
Oh so you mean how trail of torment has to declare that the killer kicked a gen and is undetectable? Or how spine chill absolutely guts stealth killers by announcing that they're looking at you or headed your way despite them being undetectable?
Rewarding fun gameplay is the way to go. I imagine most people play DBD to have fun, not sweat their ass off. I like the direction the game has taken lately, but at the same time a lot of the core gameplay is just.. flawed. Looping gets boring quickly, there is no necessary survivor objective besides gens, stealth would either need to be developed much more as a mechanic or dropped entirely, because looking through bushes for a P3 Claudette for an eternity just isn't fun gameplay. On the other hand, killer gameplay is much more varied and specific to each killer because their base stats and objectives are inherently different. It isn't just "hit, hit, hook" and you win, there's a lot more strategy to it when it comes to how you use your power, how you attack, how you get around, and the counterplay these killers create, if they even have it (looking at you, Spirit), isn't really fun a lot of the time. A lot of the fixes for DBD are like slapping a band aid on an infected wound. Yeah, the surface looks okay now, but the actual problem is just getting worse the longer you leave it and that band aid is gonna fall off fast.
I'm sorry, this whole thing fell apart fast, but what I'm trying to say is that most of the issues that DBD is plagued with right now can be traced to core aspects of the game that can't be ignored much longer.
You are still NOT providing additional options
Because that is not the subject of this discussion! The topic is titled 'Camping should not be punished', not 'how can we improve the killer role?'.
And it's kind of rich to pin that on me when everyone here is crying about how boring and one-dimensional killer is, but it's on -me- to fix it because I say camping is really bad for gameplay? You're accusing me of not wanting to fix killer issues but you're content to leave killer as bad as it is, just to have survivors share in the misery.
And that's topped off with the fact that I did actually put forth a suggestion for reworking regression to improve it and make it a stronger gameplay aspect but apparently no one was interested.
Unlike you, I am more than willing to eat crow and accept a viewpoint other than mine if it can be shown to work.
I am accepting of any viewpoints with a solid underpinning, but your argument of player agency is feeble at best and nonsensical at worst. How far does it stretch, for example? Should we just allow killers to cheat since that improves their agency? Or is there perhaps a greater goal to keep in mind that's more important than player agency?
You're putting the cart before the horse. Agency serves gameplay, not the other way around. And if the overall entertainment value is decreased from a certain aspect of agency, it is better to have it removed.
No, camping isn't fun. For anyone involved.
You want to kill, huh?
Well, there's two survivors presenting themselves on a silver platter to you, so you're getting exactly what you want, AND they're slowing their own objective progression down so they give you more time, too!
Mate, did you not read the post? OP literally explained why these mechanics are necessary for every killer.
On the contrary, I can disprove that myself. I have fun in every game I play, whether I am camped or camp. Those are just tactics, nothing more and nothing less. The game is the fun, the challenge, not the specific things done inside a match. For the record, whenever I enter an extended debate with someone, I want to fully understand their context, the way their mind works. That way I don't assume too much without seeing the evidence. As such, I go read all their posts. Yours first started to hit the board in March, and your very first day you were already complaining about stuff. You didn't even know the game yet, but you knew what you disliked. You have to realize how entitled that is right?
Your posts vary from Lore to a long litany of complaints that when actually laid out and graphed show your bias is horrible. I'm not going to do that to you right now, because it is a bit petty this early in our discussion. I just want you to be aware that I'm a thorough kind of guy in everything I do. When I talk about the game, I'm talking about it from all sides. I am interested in the fairness and fun for all involved and weigh things against viability and balance, not my personal preferences. If I were to base everything on my personal preferences, my arguments would be very different.
In your defense, you aren't a Sluzzy. Your posts aren't all one note, and there are some that impressed me. I think if you turned your very agile mind to this problem in an unbiased way, you would probably come up with some really good ideas. I just think you need to take your blinders off. For better for for worse, camping is part of this game because tactics are nothing but Player Agency, and this game only turns on agency. The entire engine and setup is based on it. I know we are getting deep here, but I assure you that I am not blowing smoke up your behind. If you want more fun, then you have to be part of the solution. You and I (and anyone else serious) have to come up with workable options, actual feedback that the DEV can use which hasn't already been tried.
I am of the opinion that rewards, and expanding Killer options is the best way to go. Barbecue & Chili, for example, is a Perk which has been a glorious success in that it incentivizes Killers to leave the hook. Without it, camping would be far more common. If we look at that success, and extrapolate on it, I'm sure you and I (and many others) could come up with additional things which would expand Killer options and the viability of Search & Destroy.
Except, with your idea, I am ALSO slowing down MY objective progression. So that's a wash.
And if I chase one, the other unhooks.
If I have 1 hooked and 2 idiots standing around; why should I be punished or forced to give away the unhook? Oh, right; because you're entitled and think there's nothing wrong with the game giving you a free unhook.
It was tried. It was abused (even if you are too biased to see it), and it was removed. Twice.
No matter what your views are on trying it so you can abuse it a third time; it's not happening. Camping, slugging, and tunneling are legit strats. Grow up and accept them, or stop playing.
Because, if you can't accept the opponent trying to win just as much as you, then clearly PvP games aren't for you.
It would be like if you logged into CS:GO and whined that 'It's not fair that I keep getting shot first! Being knocked out of the match is unfun! The enemy team should have NERF darts for 60 seconds so I can play before I lose!'
Our goal is to knock you out of the match. You don't get to decide if HOW we did it is 'unfair' or 'unfun', because LOSING IS NOT AS FUN AS WINNING.
So long as a person ain't freaking cheating or exploiting glitches (I'm looking at Survivors who hide behind hooks to avoid being picked up); your insipid little ideas about HOW we won mean nothing.
How about this? If I'm forced to give your entitled butt free unhooks you lack the skill to get normally, then I want all Survivors to be forced to fail skillchecks if they make too many in a row. It's UNFAIR and UNFUN when 2-3 gens pop within one 60 second chase! Gen rushing is totally unfair and unfun and needs to be punished! Stop letting Survivors do their objective!
I don't think in the years that I have played this game, I have actually read anyone asking for them to get rid of Camping, Tunneling and Slugging. Like, legit erasing it from the game.
In fact, funny you put it that way because whoever asked a question in relation to those 3 things (in one of the most recent dev streams) asked "Why Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging?" which is neither specific or explicitly asking to get rid of it, yet that is exactly how the devs took it.
Look. I get that it is part of the game, but much and sometimes most of the time those actions get used could sometimes boreline be abused, because they aren't used as tactics.... they are forced as 'tactics'.
You have people now that Wraith has been buffed (as an example) who only got excited for his buff because they can rush back to hook as soon as the opportunity arises to do so. Not because they felt that they needed to outpace the survivor's objective or because they somehow saw a survivor going back. They did it because they chose to and to attempt to take out that hooked survivor asap.
I don't think punishing them through points is the answer because people will still do it regardless. I think giving survivors more options OUTSIDE of perks would be a great start. That camped survivor especially should feel like they are playing the game and not a sacrificial lamb.
At the end of the day people just want to be able to play the game without waiting 20 minutes for a lobby only to go in there and do one of two things Hold M1 or Accept death on hook. That is not fun and that is not the concept of this game, because if it was I don't think people would have bought it in the first place. At this point the worst thing BHVR can do is nothing.
Yours first started to hit the board in March, and your very first day you were already complaining about stuff. You didn't even know the game yet, but you knew what you disliked. You have to realize how entitled that is right?
You think people come to the forums just to say "I am content, change nothing"? Yes, I started with a confirmation that there is a sound bug. Sue me.
You and I (and anyone else serious) have to come up with workable options, actual feedback that the DEV can use which hasn't already been tried.
And I'd be more than happy to brainstorm (Already had ideas about extended sabotages and utilising something akin to blue glyphs), but that still doesn't take away from the fact that camping is bad for gameplay and should be strongly disincentivised.
Ideally with improvements to the killer role. The idea that the killer role needs to be improved isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that camping is bad for gameplay.
You're still not forced to give away the unhook if the hookstate still progresses, just slower. You can just sit on the hook and let the last remaining survivor do the remaining gens solo if you want. But you just can't expect to get more than one kill, even against un-coordinated teams, if you go camping.
How about this? If I'm forced to give your entitled butt free unhooks you lack the skill to get normally, then I want all Survivors to be forced to fail skillchecks if they make too many in a row. It's UNFAIR and UNFUN when 2-3 gens pop within one 60 second chase! Gen rushing is totally unfair and unfun and needs to be punished! Stop letting Survivors do their objective!
Slower gens in exchange for no camping? I'll bloody take it. Seriously, I have no qualms with slowing down gen speeds in exchange for no camping. I've stated that before, too.
You need to get it through your head that I want the game to be more fun for BOTH sides. Take the pressure off killers and give them more options while massively weakening the options that take the fun out of the game.
Again, it's not a zero sum thing.
This is a good post, because it touches on something that is a potential solution to the frustration of being on the hook. We can't remove the hook, nor the Killer's agency to defend it, but what can be done is increase the play involved for the person on it. Right now you just struggle and wait, passively (short of having Deliverance or loaded up luck) to be rescued. I submit a game within a game for the person on the hook might be an option, something complex, challenging and interactive to pass that time. It might even lead to getting oneself off the hook, buying that extended time, and so on. That is an avenue that I don't think has been fully explored. I think perhaps it should be, because if the chief complaint of those being camped is being bored those two minutes, a game within the game, some bit of hope and effort, might go a long way.
But you're not giving options. You're taking away the Killer's choice to camp. Because now he's either giving Survivors more time to do do gens, or he HAS to walk away & allow an unhook.
What is so hard to understand about that? Walking away is the Killer's choice. being punished for making the 'wrong' choice is not a real choice. You are removing player agency you don't like.
And good luck with your Survivor queue times when you do that.
Just suck it TF up. Camping is sometimes needed, same with slugging and tunneling. You can either keep whining for a change that never comes, or accept it and play around it.
I'm over these stupid 'PUNISH CAMPING' posts. It's just a form of whining over losing. Bye.
We will have to agree to disagree about camping being bad for game play. I would, politely, suggest that you don't know enough about it to make that assumption. Anyone can squat at a hook, but experienced Killers are using a wide variety of camping and honey-potting tactics to not only get downs, but also to pressure generators and gather information. Camping isn't cut and dried, it is a skillset which actually does require finesse to use properly. I'm going to be blunt; you are new and you aren't well-rounded. That isn't a crime; we all start that way. But it does color your viewpoints and blinds you with bias.
Camping forces different kinds of play and tactics from both Killers AND Survivors. Some of the most exciting play, and satisfying is making that rescue from a camping Killer. It happens every day, probably five or six times in just the time you read this post. I've done it, and had it done to me. Having to tackle the additional obstacles of a tough rescue on top of getting Generators powered, and totems cleansed ups the ante. You seem to only look at it as a negative, where I look at conflict and challenge as an expansion of the game. The difference between us is you see camping as an endpoint because you are new and really not very good at countering it. People who can counter it (and do regularly) aren't nearly as put out.
All that aside, dumbing down a game by removing options never helps. I'm glad we agree that incentivizing the Killers and providing them more options is a good way to go. I respect that you cede that point; it means that you are open to finding solutions. That will outweigh anything else. The next step is looking at the history, what has been tried, and what has failed. We have to look at what has worked, and we have to set aside our personal bias. It might surprise you to know that my own bias isn't that different from yours. I also hate (well hated) being camped. My opinion of it changed in time as my experiences broadened. I know it will sound condescending for me to say (and for that I apologize) but yours will too.
Another poster (and your thoughts as well) have brought to mind that if the chief complaint you (and many others) have is boredom on the hook, why don't we look at a game within a game, more options and choices and challenges for that person on the hook. Clearly that is a potential solution if you are being honest about why being hooked bothers you. It may be we have ALL been going about this the wrong way in talking about how to punish or reward the Killer when the best solution might simply be giving the hooked person something to do and look at OTHER than everyone else playing the game. :)
Just... Just read Moundshroud's discussion with me, since you're now re-treading what they and I already discussed.
We will have to agree to disagree about camping being bad for game play. I would, politely, suggest that you don't know enough about it to make that assumption. Anyone can squat at a hook, but experienced Killers are using a wide variety of camping and honey-potting tactics to not only get downs, but also to pressure generators and gather information. Camping isn't cut and dried, it is a skillset which actually does require finesse to use properly. I'm going to be blunt; you are new and you aren't well-rounded. That isn't a crime; we all start that way. But it does color your viewpoints and blinds you with bias.
I'm not talking about honey-potting tactics, or baiting survivors to go in for the rescue and then intercepting them. I'm talking about killers staring the hook down, or seeking out the nearest hill and just surveying the area to make unhooks as impossible as they can. I'm talking about basement bubba, or a nurse that spends 30+ seconds just circling within 10 meters of the hook in plain sight.
Camping forces different kinds of play and tactics from both Killers AND Survivors. Some of the most exciting play, and satisfying is making that rescue from a camping Killer. It happens every day, probably five or six times in just the time you read this post. I've done it, and had it done to me. Having to tackle the additional obstacles of a tough rescue on top of getting Generators powered, and totems cleansed ups the ante. You seem to only look at it as a negative, where I look at conflict and challenge as an expansion of the game. The difference between us is you see camping as an endpoint because you are new and really not very good at countering it. People who can counter it (and do regularly) aren't nearly as put out.
But that is assuming that it is possible to get the rescue, which is tied to why Bubba is infamous for being campy. Because Bubba is perfect for it. Yes, against some campy killers, you can get the unhook, and that can be satisfying. But in most cases, all you accomplish is that it's now you that's on the hook and getting camped, not that you actually get to steal the kill.
Listen, I'll be the first to turn around and attempt a genrush the moment I see that someone is camping, but therein lies the issue: In solo queue, without kindred, you need visual confirmation to know the killer is camping. Getting that confirmation takes time, and the fact that it takes time is what makes camping effective. The time it takes to run up to the hook, see it is camped, and then run to the nearest gen to do it can already be enough to make it impossible to clear all five by the time the person on the hook dies, and that's not accounting for the survivor taking the logical way out of one of the worst gameplay experiences and just letting themselves die on the hook.
And if you can't clear all five before the hooked survivor burns out, it's likely to turn into a 2K, and that is not a loss for the killer.
I'm glad we agree that incentivizing the Killers and providing them more options is a good way to go. I respect that you cede that point; it means that you are open to finding solutions.
That is not a point I 'ceded', that is something I've held to from the get-go.
Fair enough; if incentives has been your point from the beginning (and I missed it) you have my apology. Oddly enough, my new Feedback post is in part inspired by your posts and Johnny_Xman. I recalled that you talked about the game Little Nightmares in some of your earlier posts (a game we have both played) and that one also has games within a game. It seems to me that the initial Hook stage should stay as it it now, because the Entity hasn't been summoned yet.... however...
2nd Stage when the Entity has been summoned could be an entirely different story. While we see the Survivor struggling to keep from being skewered by the hideous, sharp legs what if what the Survivor sees is a mini-game entirely inside a his/her own mind, a spiritual construct where they are solving puzzles, or being chased, or perhaps even fighting something. Their successes inside this mini-game could extend the length of that 2nd Stage. *For the record, I've NEVER been against having the hook time extended, I just think it should be earned somehow by the person on it or the Survivors around (like that Steve Perk). I don't think it should have anything to do with how close the Killer is in proximity to the hook as that goes back to trying punishments (which were always abused).
Now consider this, a game is going on for the Survivor starting in 2nd Stage where they can extend their time. It could certainly be made interesting and not conflict with the spaghetti code as it is game within the game. A face camping Killer might sit there for a LONG time while others worked the Generators or worked out rescues if the person inside the game within a game is putting up a good fight. The key being IF... there is no such thing as a free lunch. Extra time would have to be hard fought and earned. And best of all, the Survivor in this mini-game can be earning BP or Advancement, and perhaps even bits of Lore if puzzles and clues occur.
I'm getting far ahead of myself as the mini-game needs to be carefully considered, but I think it is a good place to start and I would NOT have thought of it without your Little Nightmares context and Johnny_Xman's post.
1) How am I victim blaming? I thought I was being very logical and reasonable.
2) I'm confused here, are you saying that I implied "gen rushing" should not be a thing? I said that if a killer camps, everyone else should just work on generators and that it is also a dumb thing to nerf "gen rushing" because it is the survivor's only objective. Of course they can do generators while the killer is camping, I didn't say anything that hinted they couldn't, in fact that is the best thing to do against a camping killer.
3) Not all of your teammates are bad, it may seem otherwise, but it is not bad all the time. And as I said, I am not complaining about "gen rushing".
4) I actually don't think this is true, it is very hard to tell at times when a killer is doing something to deliberately annoy you. I honestly think it is because a lot of killers don't really know how to play killer that well just yet. And no there really isn't a reason to slug at 4 gens unless you really need to snowball pressure quickly (which is uncommon).
5) It may not be a MMO or RPG game, but you can most certainly take aggro in this game. And no, I do not mean someone taking the killer to a generator that is being worked on (not like it is their intention, they can't tell whether or not you are there without perks), I mean taking hits, downs, or chases for other survivors. I mean making bold plays and splitting pressure on your team. If you don't do this then your team will be killed quicker. If you are being immersed all game, you aren't taking hooks for your team so people die faster.
I said that BT shouldn't even exist because it is a band-aid fix for camping and tunneling. Look at how much strife DS caused as a band-aid fix for tunneling. I am not saying they need to be taken out of the game, I am saying they are bad design overall and that the game would have to be changed at its core to fix these problems.
Honestly they have to modify chases first Since the whole chase mechanic is about avoiding the killer instead of extending it.
The Devs made it very clear that Camping, Slugging, and Tunneling are not bannable offense! Yet many Survivors and generally Dead By Daylight players dislikes/hates these practices; especially when they are around since the game's release!
They try to ban aid fixes the issues/bad practices, by simply adding new perks to counter, and punished the killer with Bloodpoints! But, unfortunately; that is not what will help solve the problem for all players!
There is always going to be bad/worse/toxic killers players that do not have many options, suck at playing killer and take advantage of the weak Survivor, or simply very "determine" to kill this one player off to feel good; regardless of the losing game or lack of Bloodpoints!
There is always going to be Entitled/bad/toxic Survivor players that want to complain that the killer used such tactics; because they prefer "to dictate how they play and have expectations from the killer on how they play, by their standards!" Along with playing so bad and not utilizing their perks/teammates, or even just want to make killer miserable because they want to have fun and not the killer!
It is a Lose-Lose situation for both sides; and it is a very difficult game mechanic/practices to Rebalance to fit both side's standards of abusing them!
For killers, they need more encouragement, less reasoning to camp, slug, and tunnel; as they would things like rewards like more gen pressure or Bloodpoints rewards or even the satisfaction of doing well in chase or using their power to go take down many Survivors other then the same one, in a row!
For Survivors, they would need more information, more resources, or even have some guts to engage with the killer and offer to risk their life to help their friend!
The point is.... no matter what they do with the game; these practices are always going to exist; it would be near impossible to make both sides stop complaining about them/ stop playing with these Killer's tactics! All I can say;
For Survivors: Quit Complaining, accept the inevitable fact that the killer will used these tactics on you and your team, and learn to adapt and get good with countering them; as well as accept the losses and just die on the hook!
For killers: Try your hardest to not used these tactics; unless the situation calls for it; such as gen rushing, seeing multiple Survivors group up, etc. Do not let others Survivors' tell you how to play the game; they need to understand that "Your the ######### KILLLER" and you are a force to be reckon with! If they hate you for how you play to win, and they suck at surviving; that is on them!
1) Am I wrong? If you see a teammate on a hook and you try to save them against a camping killer and die, then is it not your fault?
4) Most of the time at least.
5) It is actually more beneficial for survivors to take hooks because then the killer does not kill survivors very fast and yes you can still take aggro or play more aggressive. It isn't always going to work because it depends on the killer, but it definitely works a lot of the time. You can force the killer to hit you by bodyblocking doorways if they are hellbent on another survivor.
It's a band-aid fix to something you dont wanna fix. Hello....
What exactly are you saying here?
You can't punish people for playing a certain way. Why would you punish tactics that aren't even that good most of the time? It is unfun yes, but it also would limit killers more. The times where you would have to camp, slug, or tunnel would just be punished when it is the only viable option. It doesn't make sense.
The difference is that Killers can use tactics that require no skill, such as face camping, and get some measure of success from it. Survivors have to play well to do well. A flashlight save, pallet save, CJ tech, 5 gen looping. These are the things that trigger killers and they're all incredibly hard to pull off. Camping basement with bubba is not some anything special.
There is no reason to get rid of TUNNELING. It is also strategy to kill survivors quickly.
I'm sure Sluzzy would beg to differ.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging, should cost the killer perk slots. Why do they get to perform such scummy tactics for free?
You can't buff all killers to A or B tier; they would all be C tier at that point.
Students who get F's make it easier for other students to get A's. If everyone got A's it would be the average (C)...
Barbecue & Chili just makes it stupid simple to (indirectly) tunnel two survivors out of the game by reading auras, seeing who's injured, and then focusing them; bouncing back and forth until two survivors are out of the game. The aura reading either needs to be replaced with location bubbles, or show gen progress auras instead. If not, then remove the extra Bloodpoints bonus and put it into a new/different perk. Why should killers be handed such strong intel on a platter (just for playing the game) AND get bonus points on top of it?? Meanwhile, We're Gonna Live Forever requires suicidng into the killer, so you either die with many stacks and little points or with no stacks and many points (i.e. no substantial gain/difference in points, unlike BBQ killers). Pathetic
The game used to be this way (avoid the killer from the get-go), but the devs deemed this too boring and shifted the game away from hiding and toward chases. Now there is no hiding. Distortion has THREE stacks XDDDDDDDDDDD
It suffices to say that our experiences with this Perk are very different. Moreover, the overall performance of this Perk has actually decreased camping by a significant degree. Barbeque & Chili only shows the aura of Survivors far off, with more than enough time to be gone from the area by the time the Killer arrives. Moreover, there is plenty of counter play to the Perk if you "choose" to hide from it. I rarely do as I want the Killer moving away from the hook, i.e. me doing my part for the team and helping achieve a safe rescue. The DEV understand the value and the behavior they want to encourage which is exactly why they throw that BP bonus on top. As to WGLF, that is an entirely different topic and if you want to complain about that it probably requires its own thread. Shoehorning it into this discussion in this way is kind of desperate.
I suspect you and I will have to agree to disagree on Barbeque & Chili which is considered by most to be extremely successful Perk and does a lot of good for both Killers and Survivors. :)
No it should not. It is a weak strategy that mainly works against decent survivors.
I was about to write a more proper response but stopped the second I read "im fed up with how easy killer is at this moment".
Please show us your gameplay if you think killer is easy.
@Nos37
True the game has been pushed in that direction. I still find stealth to be extremely effective though, and that without the use of perks. Never cared for distortion as most killer perks have the same counter windows and requirements.
The killer will still move away from the hook with location bubbles. They just won't get the luxury of cross-map sniping with Huntress, or cross-map homing with Oni, Billy, and Nurse. They won't get to see who's injured. They won't get to see if the survivors are healing, repairing, cleansing, etc.
BBQ gives too much info
Hrm. I can't say I automatically disagree. I'll cede the point, I'm not a hypocrite, that bubbles would do the same job as the flash of auras. I think you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole with this idea that it is being used to tunnel people out and select injured over uninjured. I play Killer at the highest level and I've never used it that way. :) I'm not saying there might not be people that do, but I am saying that I doubt it is common enough to warrant the intensity of your reaction.
Even so, I think a Feedback thread discussion started to suggest that slight change isn't a bad idea. It in no way would lessen the positive impact of Barbeque & Chili so I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it does prevent the rare abuse, all the better. I do think, however, that hyperbole reactions do more to harm someone's arguments than help them. When you state something is causing the sky to fall, when it is not, they will tune out the rest of what you say even when it might be good. In your case, I think you have a solid suggestion. I just think the delivery needs work.
I didn't say BBQ is making the sky fall. I said it can make the sky fall
Let's not split hairs here; you imply it by the context. The post I answered made Barbeque & Chili sound like this horrible, abused Perk. :) If you didn't mean to say it was making the sky fall, but merely that it "could" I'm suggesting you overshot your mark. But like I said, I agree that your suggestion has merit. You should make it in its own thread so it has a chance of being seen rather than ignored in this endless thread which I doubt they even follow anymore. :)
Ive played killer for a few hundred hours and have definitely tunnelled people off the first hook before in order to make it a 3v1 as quick as possible and tilt the game in favour of the killer. A 3 v 1 is alot easier to win then a 4 v 1. But alot of the times i wont camp near the hook at all untill the gates are powered. Then there are no gens left to patrol. The problem i face when playing solo survivor is killers who camp around the hook on the first hook. Its not very fun. but alot of the times it due to the fact that all the survivors hang around the hook, so what is the killer supposed to do?
If we're not going to punish killers that camp and tunnel, we should definitely make it so survivors don't get punished for not participating in the game because they literally can't when the killer stays on their ass the ENTIRE game. Especially if you're matched with a team that isn't that good to begin with, so they don't know how to counter a killer like that. You get caught, the killer stays in your face, IF you get off the hook you get tunneled until you get hooked again, why should YOU de-pip for that? I understand that trolling SWF teams can definitely encourage that kind of gameplay for killer mains, I've felt it myself because I play as killer often, but especially recently, I will see killers camp and tunnel their first hook they rank up and the survivor they cheated out of playing the game for even 2 minutes loses rank. It's a completely nonsensical system that really needs reworking.
For the record, I've NEVER been against having the hook time extended, I just think it should be earned somehow by the person on it or the Survivors around (like that Steve Perk). I don't think it should have anything to do with how close the Killer is in proximity to the hook as that goes back to trying punishments (which were always abused).
The issue I have with a generalised hookstate slowdown is that it would make things worse for killers that don't camp, as survivors are under less pressure to interrupt their progress on objectives to go for an unhook. It'd be a considerable nerf to all killers when only campers are an issue.
Honey-potting or rescue-baiting for example would be far less effective if survivors just aren't pressured into actually going for a rescue. I'd really rather have it affect specifically campers only.
Translation: I'm a Survivor main & I want free unhooks.
Guess what? Camping only works if you stop doing gens. Survivors don't deserve to unhook someone just because they want it really, really hard. Shocking, I know.
But every 'punish camping' thread is actually some variation of the following statement:
'I want to unhook that person, but the Killer won't move. Now, I could continue to do gens, and pressure the Killer away from the hook. Or, I can blame the Killer for doing his objective, ignore my own mistakes, and demand the devs force the Killer to move away from the hook.'
I mean, hate me if you want; this is what every 'punish camping/slugging/tunneling' thread is, at its core. 🤷
Therein lies the rub, if you target too specifically it gets abused by the Survivors. It has happened every time in every iteration. Camping is a valid tactic and not all Killers are created equal. Some have to camp, to some degree (although not face camp) to equalize with say a Spirit other upper end types. Rules to be fair have to be global, and hence why I say if there is going to be something that extends time on the hook the Survivors must be earning it.
Extending hook times would not help the health of the game. What Killers remain would quit en-masse.
Survivors would have the 4 perks meta, SWF with voice comms, and then an easily abuseable mechanic that gives them free unhooks because it punishes Killers in a way they can, as I've said, abuse.
Killers would be forced to give up hooks even in situations where camping is needed to slow down gen speeds. While Survivors keep banging out gens in under 5 minutes.
There would be no reason to play Killer anymore, because the game would be so lopsided towards Survivors. So don't give me that 'health of the game' tripe. Either you have no idea what's really good for the game, or you are just trying to push for a mechanic you know is broken so you can abuse it.
I read your post. Your stats mean nothing, given the suggestion you made.
That suggestion shows you know little about the game, or you made them up. Either way, they certainly don't mean you know the game better than me or anyone else.
There's a lot going on in this thread.
I disagree - I believe that it is absolutely possible and necessary for the game to discourage (aka punish) toxic gameplay. Why? Because some people are simply not motivated by rewards, while others find their "fun" in ruining other's enjoyment. Offering incentives to not be toxic won't affect these folks' behaviors. Thus the reason I prefer employing both the carrot and the stick.
The biggest problem is that previous attempts to discourage toxic gameplay didn't do so fairly across the board, thereby allowing one side to abuse the situation. I do agree that the game needs to do more to offer carrots (aka rewards) for fun/non-toxic gameplay.
For example - to discourage face- and proxy-camping, Killers should get no bloodpoints when remaining within a certain distance from a hooked survivor. On the flip side, neither should survivors. Imposing a "after 5 seconds, if you're still within x meters of a hooked survivor, you get no bloodpoints" whether you're a Killer or survivor ensures 1) the Killer leaves the area and 2) survivors aren't attempting to abuse the Killer (and the hooked survivor) by getting into a chase in the immediate vicinity, or by using the hooked survivor as a shield to do things like repair a generator or cleanse a totem. 5 seconds gives enough time for someone to go in and get the unhook (and the points for doing so), and once the unhook is done, the restriction lifts. A simple message appearing on the screen to notify players "you are no longer earning bloodpoints" would make it clear so folks would know they needed to move away.
On the reward side - I like the idea of giving the Killer a bonus for each distinct hook - another reason not to camp, as if one can get the full 12 hooks, one would get a hefty bloodpoint bonus at the end of the match, as opposed to camping and basically getting 4 or less hooks.
To discourage selfishness on the part of survivors, the game could give all survivors whether they escape or not a bonus for anyone who does manage to escape - so even if a survivor dies, if two of their comrades escape, they also get the bonus at the end of the match. This would encourage folks to be more helpful to their teammates as opposed to hiding in lockers or hiding near the hatch.
There are ways to discourage toxic gameplay in a fair and balanced way. The real question becomes why BHVR chooses not to do so.
Insofar as BBQ and Chili is concerned, the primary issue, I think, is that it's the combination of both the aura information AND the overall bloodpoint boost that makes it too powerful, especially when compared to the similar survivor perk, We're Gonna Live Forever, which requires a certain amount of risk on the part of the survivor to obtain and activate (and which provides no aura information at all). It's also too powerful when compared to the other Killer perk, Distressing, which increases terror radius and provides the boost only to Devious bloodpoints.
If you take away the opportunity for bloodpoints when camping, then you might punish killers who aren't intentionally camping. There are loads of times where the killer has to stay near the hook because survivors are swarming that person like flies. In the situations where a killer is forced to camp, they would be punished.
BBQ is most certainly not too powerful either, it is well balanced, healthy, and an all around amazing perk for killers. I see no problem with this perk especially considering how much counterplay it has.
1) Dying to a hardcore basement Bubba is bad luck and not necessary your fault. Ranking and pips are unimportant to these people. They just want to see you suffer.
2) It's just unfun for the tunneled person. Games are meant to be fun.
3) 4min of boredom. Slugging early game is just unnecessary and should not be encouraged. End game slugging is OK.
The general problem is that there will be always be people who play to win. These people will use unfun tactics regardless if you make it unrewarding or not
No, I said YOUR stats mean nothing, since you're waving them around like it shows you know better than everyone else.
And you can have your perspective; that does not make it, or you, correct.
I should have made this more clear but I mean that if you give a basement bubba more than one kill then it was probably your fault. The person on the hook isn't, just unlucky.
Not every game can be as fun as people would like it to be, this goes for every game. I'm sure there are other valid strategies in other games that people don't like but are not punished. You can't really punish people for playing how they want to.
I don't think slugging at the start of the game is necessary, but I don't think it should be punished either. This can also easily backfire if the killer goes too far with it and the downed survivor is rescued.
It may be unfun, but these strategies are sill valid and should not be punished. Even punishing them wouldn't really stop them either unless you start banning people, but at that point it would just be dumb since you are punishing people for playing a certain way.
At least for me it's not my fault if I'm unlucky to get found first and not immediately thinking that this Bubba will insidious camp me in the basement. Different factors play a role in this as well: were you caught in a dead zone you wanted to cross for the exact same reason? Did you not expect a certain perk/add on? Etc. You can't know and react to everything in the right way at the start. I don't say that some people get caught by Bubba and it's totally not their fault. Most people try really hard, but just fail or are unlucky. But it IS your fault if you walk into an insidious Bubba's basement.
I don't agree with your "more than 1k is your fault" statement. Most times a basement Bubba comes quite early and unexpected. Maybe you are lucky and all others quickly found a gen. A Gen takes 80s base. Both hook states (if this survivor isn't an #########) are 120s. So theoretically about 4.5 gens (2 people working on Gen 4) could be done until this person dies. But that is very unlikely. You need some time to find a new Gen, maybe someone tries to save (not everyone has Kindred or uses "handsignals" on the hook) etc. On average 3 or 4 gens get done until that person dies. And then it depends on the next victim's looping skill if there'll be 1, 2 or even more kills.
The outcome of this scenario heavily depends on your team. Easy in a swf, but horror for soloq. Sometimes it's completely out of your control.
For the rest I kinda agree, but I think that a game should be fun first and foremost and these tactics can be quite the opposite if used by a try hard.
Yeah, that certainly sounds fun.
Less chases, less gameplay, less user agency, more alt+tabbing, more reasons to simply stop playing completely. An excellent idea, I say we also go ahead and just make it so that killers don't have to go through all that boring effort of hitting the players in the first place. Perhaps we can just implement a button that let's you kill the survivors immediately without the faff of the chase.
Then we can all finally just uninstall this game and move on to something better.
You're right it should be allowed. Doesn't mean were gonna stop bullying them for being a puthay
LMAO
It is extremely selfish to say killers should not be punished for camping and tunneling. Survivors are punished for vaulting windows over and over. Say we are doing that to escape from a tunneling killer. How is it fair that we are punished for trying to escape a tunneler, which does not make the game fun for anyone, and the killer has no punishment whatsoever? That right there is called a disadvantage and ultimately rewards tunneling killers and acts as if that gameplay is fine, which it totally shouldn't be. If you're bad at killer just don't play, it'f so frustrating being tunneled all match and only going down because you cant vault a window meanwhile the killers has no setback whatsoever for strictly targeting one player even when others throw themselves at them..
killer is the power role, they should be making the decisions and calling the shots. not the survivors, Boons should be deleted, as for BT, And any of that #########