DS isn't even a Top 5 Survivor Perk
I'll address the DS + Unbreakable towards the end of the thread because I know that's what all the angry people are going to come in here ready to yell about.
edit: tl'dr I can think of multiple perks that I gain a lot from and I control when I use them versus a perk that depends on the killer tunneling me. (I know some people don't read long posts)
I'm starting by addressing the perk itself. We all know what it does because there's endless threads about it. From the time you're unhooked, if the killer picks you up again within 60 seconds, you get a chance to hit a skill check and stun the killer. Cool.
There are many perks I would and DO run over that for a number of reasons. DS depends on the playstyle of the killer and only works if they choose to tunnel you instead of going after the 3 other people on the map. And I don't want to hear about "Well, they're just trying to be efficient and tunneling is a good strategy" because I'm not arguing against that. They're fine strategies (despite being boring for the survivor), but I'm just stating facts. I play killer and I know exactly who was just pulled off a hook recently, how many times each person has been hooked, who is on death hook, who I've never seen. Every killer knows that so when someone chooses to go after the same person again, they know what they're doing and we're just going to call it what it is.
Now that being said, here's perks that are better (imo) that DS because YOU control when you use them.
Borrowed Time - BT has its own set of weaknesses but it can get people out of a LOT of bad situations if you play it correctly. You control when it gets used, not the killer.
Kindred - Damn near indispensable in solo Q. Anytime someone gets hooked, you have knowledge of where your team is and what they are doing, and possibly where the killer is located based on hook is running. If you are on the hook, your team gets that knowledge
We'll Make It - Quick heals off of the hook. Both players are back to what they need to do in what... 8 seconds? Idk the exact time but I know it's short.
Inner Strength - Encourages players to take care of totems which helps prevent NOED and works as a pocket save
For the People - A pretty good anti tunnel perk when you pull someone off a hook and instantly use it. The killer either has to make the choice of commiting to the tunnel which would take 2 hits and possibly a long chase, or going after a fresh target. And most people don't expect it so they usually commit to who freshly unhooked person expecting an easy kill.
Saboteur - Map wide hook knowledge, lets you see where hook deadzones are so you can make sabo plays. My SWF friends consistently see me pull these off at least once or twice every game.
Lithe - If window hitboxes ever get fixed, this allows for a pretty good extended chase that a killer might not be expecting and can extend loops
Hell as much as I think it's trash, I might even run Dead Hard for the same reason as Lithe. Only reason I don't use it is because it fails more often than it works
Comments
(people don't take your bait seriously if you say Lithe and Saboteur are better than DS)
Maybe it isn't bait :)
JFI gen can be done so fast that game does not even count is as complited i myself expirienced it and also there is a record
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CdIwSJRjFE.
Congrats you found an outlier that rarely happens. The killer in the clip knew they had 4 toolboxes with bnp and all spawned together. He shouldn't have wasted time setting up that second trap.
So outside of this super rare example, which might happen 1 in every 1000 games or so (literally never happened in the over 2k hours I've played) this isn't really a thing you'll see every day
If I find a clip of Bubba killing all 4 survivors at the same time, does that mean Bubba OP or did I just happen to find something that rarely happens....
Meta perk isn't meta, sure its not
Yep, I totally agree it’s bad at evading in the open. It’s a case where the perk is bad at something you’d expect it to be good at based on its description but it turns out to be really good at something else entirely so it’s still popular.
Just because you're rank 1 doesn't mean you're good or that you understand the game though.
This isn't an attack, but literally your only argument is "oh I'm red rank" it's like... great. I got to red rank my first couple weeks of playing.
Also, whether or not you want to admit it, there's survivor bias here. Anyone who plays against good teams at high ranks knows that DS itself isn't an issue, but the fact that it's abusable by nature; couple that with the other meta perks and you get rolled.
I wish to disagree on what your opinion on DS.
I think it is the strongest perk that can consistantly work (imo i think dead hard is best *when it works*).
When the perk activates, it says that if the killer grabs you 60 seconds after you are hooked, you can stun him for 5 seconds. This sounds fair off what I am seeing.
The problem is how abusable this perk is. While this is active; the survivor is immune from being picked up.
So here is a scenario: the survivor has gotten off hook 20 seconds ago, and you can only find them. They decide to run into a locker. What do you do?
You don't know if they have DS or not. If they do, they are in invincible atm. If they don't, then they are screwed. You have 4 outcomes:
1. Pick up the survivor and eat the DS. You lose any pressure and can't move for 5 seconds.
2. Leave the survivor. You lose any pressure you had but can try to gain some a bit sooner.
3. Pick up the survivor and they don't have DS. Lucky for you.
4. Wait out the last 40 seconds. You gain no pressures and risk at least 1 gen popping.
I'll be honest, many people don't bluff a out not having DS. Let's just assume they brought DS in the scenario. Then because of 1 perk, the killer will get punished for doing any option.
Another common thing is that survivors will hug a gen if they have an active DS. Killers like to get grabs, as not only does it down a survivor, but pick them up in the same animation. Well, now the killer gets punished for something thats usually super rewarding.
Now let's say a killer just swings and puts them down on a gen. Well, they can't pick the survivor up, even though they let themselves get hit. Now the killer gets punished (less mind you) for doing their main objective. Yeah they are down and not doing anything, but either they wait for the DS to run out, or leave them to be picked up.
Now throw in Unbreakable to the above scenario. Now, the killers options are:
1. Eat the DS and let them save the unbreakable. Less pressure now for a little more preasure later
2. Let the use the unbreakable and save the DS. More pressure now but less in the future
3. Sit there, wait for unbreakable to be used and/or DS to go away.
I dont mind the perk for what it is intended for: tunneling. The main problem is that instead of saying "i have a minute where if I am tunneled, he gets punished", it is "i have a minute of invulnerability." While I understand that it is the surivors job to do the objectives, it sucks to know that ( since they can vet unhooked twice) that is 2 minutes of invulnerability per survivor that brings it, up to a max of 8 minutes. If you solo the gens, that is 400 seconds. If the survivors have 480 seconds of invulnerability total, they can get all the gens done and open the exit gates while still having around 1 DS timer worth of time left. That is w/o calculating kicking gens or ruin or something like that, and saying that survivors aren't doing gens unless they are under the DS effect.
Well, at least this Is why I hate it. I can't speak for all.
I'd be really interested in how BHVR views DS, because Peanits has stated on the forums in the past that they do not view it as an "anti-tunneling" perk, but that was what the community claimed it was for.
@RakimSockem
Props to you for playing like a good killer.
I am willing to bet that 99% of the people who are complaining about DS are people who want to eat DS even though they themselves know there is a high change the person has it. People are literally making it sound like you get stunned with every single DS.
I've had many matches where all 4 players had it, and the only time it affected me was in endgame. It might have been one out of the 4, definitely not all of them. This is the exact opposite of what people on these forums claim, which is that you have "invincibility", well you only have it if you actually proc the perk right?
Even if all 4 DS's procc'd I don't see how you can have a problem with that, but not a snowball, which is very easy to do if there is no DS.
The rank 20 mentality at it's finest.
You just proved how absurdly broken the perk is.
Killers will respect even thought you don't have it.
for me I hate ds when egc starts I also hate head on more then DS I feel like it troll perk.
@Sylorknag
I slug in my matches doesn't mean I respect it. Just means I am countering it.
Slugging is good whether the person has DS or doesn't. This is why there is a good amount of high rank killers who do it, and why things like DS are actually healthy for the game. Because when I play killer I can apply pressure by simply leaving someone on the ground. It is guaranteed pressure. This is why I don't mind if the player has DS+ UB because to them those are just perks that might or might not even proc. because they are too situational.
You can slug for as long as you want too. You aren't restricted unlike DS. You have an entire match's worth of time, DS only has 60 seconds.
You said yourself that you slug in your matches.. and then proceed to say that unbreakable/ds are too situational lol I rest my case.
Killers don't need to tunnel to win, nor is it possible to tunnel good survivors even without BT or DS. Stop applying rank 15 logic to the balance of the entire game kid.
@Sylorknag
Right. I did, because it was relevant to the conversation.
It doesn't mean that slugging = respecting anything. It means it works as a pressuring tool + counter to DS. Consequently if you don't tunnel off the hook, you no longer have 60 seconds to slug, so chances of Unbreakable procc'ing are limited to that survivor. Unbreakable procs once, Slugging on the other hand can be done EVERY SINGLE TIME you want to put pressure on survivors.
I don't get what your case is.
I am a survivor main and can only speak to this from that perspective. I have tried using DS on multiple occasions. I forced myself to use it for a month straight at one point because I kept reading on this forum how it was so powerful. The only thing DS ever did for me was ensure I got tunneled after using it 90% of the time. The only time it ever gave me any real benefit is if I managed to use it while the gates were open and it bought me enough time to get out. I think that only happened twice.
The overwhelming majority of the time I utilized DS the killer would ignore everyone else completely until I was dead. I realize not everyone will have the same experience as me. But from my experience DS is simply the guaranteed to be tunneled perk.
@WheresTheGate
Because contrary to popular belief it isn't even a good anti-tunnel perk. The perk doesn't render the killer immobilized or something, it merely stuns them, and they can still see the direction in which you are headed.
Exactly. That's what I'm trying to get at. I have never understood why it's so popular on one side and so hated on the other. From my personal experience it doesn't prevent tunneling. As a matter of fact the chance of being tunneled goes up by many orders of magnitude in my experience.
My survivor rank got worse using it because I got tunneled way way way more than I ever did before.
@WheresTheGate
Mostly everyone who has a problem with getting stunned will tell you that there is a strong loop nearby, that they had Dead Hard, that they were getting gen-rushed etc etc. To try to justify the strength of the perk. Because without an actual situation like that, the perk isn't that strong at all.
From my experience I completely agree. I mess with different perks just to try them out. I recently equipped left behind for 10 straight matches. In 2 of those matches I was able to find hatches I likely wouldn't have found otherwise. In 10 matches it provided as much benefit to me as DS did using it a month. That's saying something when you consider left behind is a perk that is only useful if you are the last survivor left. If you aren't the last survivor left it's a waste of a perk slot.
That might be the weirdest defense I've ever read. "It doesn't render the killer immoblized, it just stuns them, which renders them immobile." ???
I'm sorry on what planet can you not get to a loop with 20 seconds of distance?
@ScottJund
Idk, try the maps which have no loops around where the stun happens or pallets nearby.
I'm sure you have enough hours to have played survivor and understand that.
The reason I stated that people on here present a very specific scenario to try to justify the strength of the perk is because they always come up with the most 'out there' survivor-sided situations, that it is laughable to me when on the flip side of it, if the survivor didn't have DS they would have found themselves in a very bad situation because of how lackluster some set ups are. (especially after they have nerfed the amount of pallets and moved set ups around).
PS. When I said "immobilized" It was a sarcastic way of saying "invincible" which is the word that many love to use here. Because in reality DS doesn't give you invincibility. It doesn't render the killer unable to down you.
I just massively disagree its a "very specific scenario" that you cannot find a loop within 80 meters of you. That's ridiculous. There's almost no situation where that happens.
@ScottJund
To each their own.
I have found maps that start out being bad (Meaning killer-sided) because the set ups are an L-T wall next to a Z wall. Not saying it happens all the time.
All I am saying is that, people who try to sell DS as this "invincibility tool" are also proposing that every single scenario (When DS is used) is against them. Which isn't entirely true either.
It's still the most used survivor perk. UB is not used even half the time DS is used and even fewer times together.
This illusion of 4 man with DS + UB happens maybe 1:200 games in red ranks, it's just not a common combination. They rather use dh / iron will / self care. Do your own research and you will see it too.
The only map that's even remotely close to what you're describing is maybe the cornfield map with killer shack in dead center and all the pallets and jungle gyms are on the outside of the map or maybe Shelter woods
You could say the same thing on slinger his psychological effect on survivors is so strong he can zone by existing. I'd DS wasnt like that survivors would be deleted in the first 2 minutes.
Thays something I have noticed as well it's always specific scenarios that always have the killer being in an extremely unfavorable position. I think the perks balanced tbh. We can always have old DS if killers wanna complain.
Killers, by default, are reactionary to survivor decisions. The ones that break this mold (Nurse, Spirit, Doctor, Freddy, Deathslinger, and PH to a degree) are often despised by survivors, but they can be stronger because of it.
DS is really strong, and insanely flexible in its use. Not only this, but it can turn a game around just by it existing. If a killer sees an obsession, they must play in a certain way to try to avoid it, but even then, if they play too well, they might still get hit by it (59 second DSs are always fun). It forces killers to be reactionary to survivor decisions again, even if they are one of the killers I mentioned above.
I would rather pick other perks than BBQ sometimes. There are times where other perks would be more fun. I remember when Hangman's was supposed to have a 16 m aura reading around hooks. That would have replaced BBQ in my eyes, as it would be far more useful. However, the devs were afraid of making good perks, and so we are stuck with BBQ. Which still has at least 6 counters to it, btw, which are easy to use (gen hiding, misdirection, Sole Survivor, lockers, Off the Record, Distortion, just to name a few).
Adrenaline, DS, BT, Exhaustion perk survivors often do not give the ability for build diversity. It would be nice not to run Pop, BBQ, and Sloppy, but it simply isn't the correct move right now.
Gonna make this a shorter post.
Killers and survivors both have resources to manage.
Survivors: Pallets, Windows, Loops
Killers: Time
Survivors have to know how long it takes to get to loop or window or pallet and keep track of how many pallets they have left.
Killers have to be able to manage their time efficiently or they lose the game, the faster the survivors go, the worse the killer has it.
DS (especially with BT) wastes the killers time, either the killer eats the DS wasting minimum of 20s just to redown his last survivor, or the killer has to wait 60 seconds before picking up the person he downed, possibly even picking themselves up and running off.
With more than one of these the killer loses at minimum a full minute of progress in a game where normal matches take between 5-10 minutes. Survivors time pressure on the otherhand is lessened by the fact that excluding endgame builds, killers grow weaker as the match goes on, as the gates open up, as the hatch becomes available.
Most matches end between 5-7 minutes and with thise short time frames, yes DS (In its current state) is extraordinarily powerful and the only ways to keep it from activating is to simply not play the game and let the survivor go.
TL;DR DS in itself wouldnt be a problem but with BT and with the game.in its current state it is tremendously strong, and when combined with BT has no effective counterplay. The only thing you can do is take the punishment for them having it or not play the game.
You watch theSh0wStopper?
Two things.
You give a list of other perks... but that is your personal tier list. I would rather go by the number of DS you see in games to determine it DS is a top 5 perk.
Besides that, you leave out the possibilities to aggreeeively make use of DS. The way DS is designed, you can actively force it to trigger, it is not simply a passive perk. Also, not every killer has 4 hour glasses ready to track every hook on every survivor. And efficient killers can easily stumble across an active DS by accident, after hooking 2 other persons, especially when there is a party of 4 equal/similar looking survivors.
Btw Saboteur is not mapwide, it is basically the range that a killer can travel (without Agitation/Iron Grasp) while carrying a survivor.
My bad, it was early i was thinking unbreakable. And it kinda depends on who gets stronger. If survivors stealth and have more pallets and crap id say they do better later.but i get your point 👍
People choose not to use it until endgame, and its a contingency if they get tunneled, making it impossible for the killer to do anything but slug them after they get unhooked no matter what the situation. Its still unfair to punish the killer for playing well, and thats what DS does sometimes. Not all the time. But sometimes.
Never heard of it.