Thought's on LGBT characters
I for one think this is a great idea, let's welcome them with open knives:
I for one think this is a great idea, let's welcome them with open knives:
Read THIS post.
Tldr: This is an archived version of the DBD forum, it has all posts, comments and media. The archived data will be published at the end of October. This site is not in any way affiliated with or endorsed by Behaviour Interactive.
Comments
Just sounds like pandering that isn't needed. It's just a game where people run from their lives from a killer. No one's stopping midgame to let you know their gender/sexuality. Really seems unnecessary, to be honest.
Some people like reading the lore. For example, Frank and Julie's fleshed-out relationship.
What bothers me is that BHVR came out saying, "Hey you folks like gay/straight/trans/bi/so-on types of characters? Well, it's good for you because we're not going to define them!!! They can be whatever YOU want them to be :)!!!!.......Oh wait j/k we were defining them all along..........they're straight...."*sound of balloon letting out air* *"sad trombone* When you try and be a centrist, and noncommital about things it just blows up in your face. People are all over themselves about BHVR's response. It's so after the fact.
It's pride month and people want to support minorities. Well, how about if we did that two years ago? We really could have had some characters with depth. A person is defined by the relationships they have. For them to have taken such a stance stripped them of their authenticity. Now it will just seem to pander and rings hollow and false. Better go wipe that pie off my face. Clearly the jokes been on all of us folks who just for a second wanted some representation.
Like super cool all these years playing Mario as he pines after Peach. Super Cool playing Cloud as he has a love triangle between Tifa and Aerith. Great seeing Amy and Sonic together. Master Chief and Cortona, Gordan Freeman and Alyx Vance, Nathan Drake and Elana Fisher, Tidus and Yuna, Akira and any of the ladies in Persona 5, Link and Zelda. Their relationships help define them. Helped shape the story and save the world. I had nothing to look at as a little kid to show me a healthy LGBTQ relationship growing up. I remember sitting in front of my old tube tv wrapped in a big blanket during a snow day watching Squall and Rhinoa's relationship unfold.
I never got to see LGBTQ relationships in my games growing up. If there was a gay guy, they were evil or some sexual deviant. Do you know how much that takes someone apart while they're growing up? What it says is, you'll never find love or companionship or friends. You'll always be less than, you are fundimentally flawed and browken. The straight folks are the heroes. You're the pervert. That has an impact, and BHVR'S centrist stance, in the end, was a stance. Their stance was, we don't want to offend the heroes...I guess that's why I main Killer.
@Orionbash
Hardly a debate. I wasn't asking you to educate me, I've done well enough for that myself. You are explicitly calling out BHVR, by stating a very lazy opinion.
Funny how you claim I am the one "sheltered' from what's going on in the world, but a company sends out a message that is a direct stance on issues that we deal with everyday like INCLUSIVITY, but somehow you are bothered because you find it 'unnecessary'...even though you yourself are a part of that community.
Check yourself.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjI5gFpGCqEhw05W/giphy.gifThey were already welcome. They don't want tolerance, they want capitulation.
Yes, having multiple people say that LGBT characters should not be explicitly mentioned in the game and a few even saying they outright hate LGBT people definitely makes us feel welcome. And you're right, we definitely want capitulation, that's why we demanded this of BHVR; they obviously didn't do this of their own free will.
Sexuality is not personality though. Sexuality may be a part of one’s identity, but that’s something different entirely. Does anybody really read “the lore” or listen to the archives anymore? Imagine whatever you want. Just because somebody who’s paid to write for a video game doesn’t make their reality any more real than yours.
It's ridiculous to demand evidence of something that hasn't happened yet. We have no clue whether BHVR is doing this as a honest step forward or a pandering stunt. Do you have any evidence that BHVR is putting the Silent Hill nurse skin in the game just as a cash grab to take advantage of her sexy body? Of course not! It's something that may not even happen.
My post was obviously in response to your statement that only doing something to pander doesn't make it any less important or exciting. Stop trying to pretend I said anything else cause you can't defend your erroneous statement and need to resort to a strawman argument to rebut against.
There is legitimately zero difference between an "honest step forward" and a "pandering stunt." There is no "forward" in this equation. BHVR is not being bettered by having a bunch of twitter keyboard warriors put them on strings and making them dance. You are under the mistaken impression that an individual or group can be forced to progress under threat of economic consequences. It's not progress, it's not even pandering, it's just business.
Then continue doing that a characters sexuality being revealed shouldn't stop you from just slashing hooking and continuing.
It's revealed that David had a girlfriend did that completely ruin your immersion against fighting him if not what when why is it an issue.
Frank and Julie are canonical dating does it ruin your immersion when you're up against the legion and it happens to be frank or Julie
The nurse is a widower and her husband Andrew was killed does this ruin your emotion when you go up against a nurse
Lots of Aces cosmetics reveal him to be a ladies man does this completely ruin your immersion
If the answer to all above is no then why the hell does a character being gay lesbian bisexual or trend in any way shape or form ruin your immersion.
When straight relationship so used everyone typically just stays quiet but the a characters mentioned as an LGBT member even if it's just a small line of text in a large lore section apparently now it's pushing an agenda and it's not meant to be in horror games.
Again where was this irritation Frank and Julie were confirmed to be dating where was this irritation when they said David had a girlfriend.
I say this and I'll say it to anyone who brings up this type of argument if you don't care about a characters sexuality and you just want to play the game ignore it and just continue playing the game if you are still making a massive fuss and think about it then guess what.
We're not stupid it's pretty obvious that you care
Still not my problem.
And I like how you assume that because I'm part of said community I'm not allowed an opinion other than what the mainstream thinks. That's awfully oppressive of you. 😂
I screenshotted this for future reference.
I'll joke about what I want, maybe you need to get a sense of humour.
@Orionbash
I never said you didn't have or weren't allowed an opinion.
Are you running out of things to accuse me of now? First you call me "Naive", next "Sheltered", Now you're saying I assume that because you claim yourself to be a part of a community you're not allowed an opinion.
Read. I said you are calling me sheltered from the real world, as if somehow I don't understand how corpotations work, because you think every company who supports the LGBTQI community isn't doing it genuinely or in a way that it appeases you.
@Dehitay
So as I suspected. You make a statement about the "whinny" people setting a standard for why BHVR is doing this, but you don't provide any examples to make you think that. Got it.
No I do not have proof that the Silent Hill nurse skin is in the game as a cash grab, but guess what? I never made those statements. I never even brought up Silent Hill. YOU did.
Nice try changing the narrative now though.
They're not doing it genuinely. A business does not have a genuine feeling. A corporation does not care about anything because it doesn't have a mind. The people who run the corporation only answer to the following: Investors and Customers. Corporate employees get strong armed into making certain statements to appease their customers every day. This is no different, and I assure you that it is all 100% artificial all the time.
My god this community, reference a movie scene and people still argue over some rubbish lore that's gonna be put into the Archives. Can't have a laugh these day's...
@DeadArsenal
As pointed out before, I am not expecting BHVR to become some kind of advocate for the gay community. The announcement was about fleshing out characters and their backstories, NOT about donating to some LGBTQI charity event.
That is all I am saying.
It's all good. I'll be honest I haven't read this whole exchange between you two so I definitely won't challenge your word. I've just gotten cynical about this whole inclusivity business. It's frustratingly off-target and that might be rubbing off on me.
@DeadArsenal
And that is fair and understandable. I just think its really unfair that they are doing something positive, and the first thing that people can come up with is questioning their motives. I'm kind of done tbh, cuz some people on here love repeating themselves. lol
so what exactly are you saying to @Orionbash ?
are you dismissing Orionbash because they are part of a group but they don't share the popular group mentality???
This also could go for people of color. "You killed me, you have to be a racist! I'm gonna report you!" Should they just remove the few black characters?
No.
It's one of those things that I welcome gladly as long as it doesn't feel forced. Characters in a game like this should represent various different backgrounds. You want to create diversity, especially among the survivors, so that everyone can find their own survivor that they feel represents or speaks to them. As for killer, I don't see how a sexuality preference is relevant for most of them currently, but it doesn't mean you can't add killers with an LGBTQ background. (For example, maybe their past reveals harsh discrimination against them that made them snap into a killer mindset or something like that). But that being said, you want to do it in a tasteful manner. It shouldn't be a common reoccurring theme in almost every new character. Sexuality in general shouldn't have to be explained for every character new & old. It should only appear when it sees fit to maybe develop a unique storyline for a character.
OK. So. Words mean things. I love that your word of the day calander has been useful in expanding your vocabulary, but you might want to start reading the definition of some the words you use:
Capitulation: capitulation is basically giving in to the demands of an opponent. I've not seen anyone strongly push for this, and I've never felt like BHVR were staunch opponents of the lgbt+ community. An ACTUAL example of capitulation would be BHVR going back on the tweet to appease people offended by the inclusion of LGBT people in the game- the thing you seem to be pushing for in opposition to their current stance.
Bigot: a bigot is someone who holds intolerant views usually based on ignorance. I don't think people responding positively to this announcement is bigoted- like who is this bigoted against? Homophobes because they have to be reminded that gay people exist? I have seen a lot of very calm and good faith responses to the kinds of claims your making across the forum over the last couple of days--very little active dismissal, mostly attempts to educate with many people drawing on personal experience. That you feel so hostile on this topic that you've resorted to throwing out buzz words looks like bigotry on your part to me.
Fasism:... Do I need to bother with this one? There's hyperbole, but then there's genuinely inappropriate comparisons. Fascism is a form of right wing government which tends to specifically target marginalised people in order to create an exclusionary group identity- typically backed up with violence. A very famous fascist government (you know the one) was known for targeting lgbt people specifically and they're a common target for fascist rhetoric. I'm sorry, but giving Nea an ex girlfriend and a rainbow beanie is not a form of violence or oppression. If you don't like it, just don't engage with it- you aren't in any danger of being forced to engage with this stuff and the fact that you feel you are is utterly pathetic. I don't want to have to point the mirror back at you like I did with capitulation and bigot... But those feet of yours sure look like they would slip comfortably into some fashy boots.
Wow! Where do i even begin. First you just proven the others argument right about not feeling welcomed. Second were just asking for representation. Also do you know in how many countries being gay is still illegal?
Why can't we just have a little representation I mean straight relationship are seen as normal in media and rl but lgbtq is seen as unnatural and not normal.
Most are probably not mad if we don't get a gay character. Ist fine, just don't tease us. I actually don't need a character it's enough if we get pride skins and belt/hook charms. A character would be nice tho.
Why do you even care so much if what gender kisses what gender. It doesn't affect you or hurt you.
You write your comment like we're going to stand behind the team with torches and Pitchforks, to make them do this. I don't even think anyone asked them to do this. If yes show me evidence of it.
Can BHVR include a mtf transitioned person who like CIS females as a character?
TBH I always thought Jane was Lesbian, and that Nea was Bi.
Do you know that in some countries it's practically a death sentence if anyone finds out? I'm quite aware of the adversity facing homosexuals throughout the world. That's hardly what's being addressed here. They're facing true injustice and you? Well, you're feeling unincluded. Forgive me if I don't see the relation here. You ever hear the phrase "first world problems" before?
The demand to be constantly recognized and catered to cheapens the struggle of real people facing real cruelty all over the world. People are here heckling BHVR over "inclusion" not to save a person's life or to free them from oppression. I think you need to get your priorities straight here, because they are shockingly out of order.
Furthermore, don't pretend like this is anything other than a threat to the developers. Saying "no" subjects them to the full fury of social justice warriors that don't even play this game and have never heard of it. This is a circus and you know it.
Show me one person who heckled or threatened BHVR over not including LGBT. Because all I see are people heckling and threatening them for daring to include LGBT.
Remind me again who prompted this? Was it someone who said BHVR better not be inclusive or else? Not that I can recall. Funny thing, there's streamers that are being subjected to coordinated social justice crusades as we speak. Out of sight out of mind right? Awfully convenient though.
Show me the threats, then. What I saw was that Mathieu had a conversation with one individual who may or may not be LGBT, and then made this decision. No mention of threats or heckling. That one individual is also not representative of the LGBT community.
The inevitable reactionary response is the threat. It's happened to other games already. Cyberpunk 2077 faced the same exact thing. All of a sudden somebody decided it was time to be morally outraged, retweeted it thousands of times, and both the social justice community and the press came raining down on the developers like vultures. This backlash is everpresent and represents nothing short of an existential threat to any business that encounters it. This is how "inclusivity" is bought nowadays apparently, at twitter outrage point. Pressure is exerted on a business until it is forced to make a statement and if that statement doesn't make everybody feel nice and proud of themselves there will be hell to pay.
So the threat is an imagined future event. Gotcha.
Lets see guys you know that its a multiuniverse so there is a lesbian nurse, gay Dwight etc etc... There is no sense for adding sexual orientation.
Just think it as you like if you think nea is lesbian is okay its a multiverse,there will be all orientation neas.
You're not going to change many minds with an attitude of smug indifference. Blackmailing companies into stepping in line with an ideology wins even fewer hearts and minds. Feigning innocence only works for so long before people get the picture. Remember that.
Fun fact: I don't give a ######### either way and never spoke to BHVR about this, despite being LGBT. So what's with the conspiracy theory?
So you think outrage culture is a "conspiracy theory?" LOL, alright chief. I'm going to bed. Have fun.
This argument can be said about every single lore/backstory bit though. Either have it all or none. Leaving everything LGBT+ explicitly out but having everything they already had was not the way.
No, I saw outrage culture is alive and well the instant BHVR said they weren't just going to confirm characters in their game were heterosexual or had had heterosexual relationships. I think the way you're speaking of LGBT as if it's an "ideology" with the ability to exert influence across the globe is a conspiracy theory. It's not the first time I've heard someone speak of a group that has one thing in common in such a way. It's usually about liberals or ethnic or religious groups, though.
Ah, here we are, the part where you conflate social justice warriors with every Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transexual in the world as if I am attacking them all collectively. Nice bait, but you're not trying hard enough. No, the ideology is social crusaders fighting petty causes for "inclusivity" under the delusion that they're fighting injustice. Your eagerness to misrepresent my argument is nauseating in the extreme.
OK.
Oh no, what's the matter? Your veiled implications that I'm a bigot didn't work out the way you wanted them to? Feeling speechless? Typical.
Wow, I'm almost impressed at how you can so blatantly miss the point where I clearly spelled it out for you and then end with a statement of such hypocrisy. I clearly explained that I never said that whiney people were setting a standard, but that if whiney people set a standard then that did indeed make things less important. And I clearly explained that in the very post that you quoted but are so stuck hearing only what you want to hear that you can't even read it properly.
That Silent Hill statement was so obviously a parallel to serve as an example of why it's ridiculous to demand evidence of something that hasn't happened and yet you somehow missed it. At this point, I can't determine if you just lack the intellect to see such an obvious parallel or if you're so desperate to find something you can actually counter that you'll take an obvious parallel of what you did and pretend it's an actual thing I wanted even though I made it so clearly obvious that I consider such a line of thinking ridiculous.
And that last statement is just one of the most blatant forms of hypocrisy you could have spit out considering how both your last 2 responses to me are desperate attempts to change a narrative that I've made completely clear.
honestly this is the right way to support lgbt+.
Please make wraith gay on his tome please please please
Personally, I dont care or have an opinion on it. I dont even read the lore in this game, or any game tbh. Feng could be lesbian already for all I know, I have no idea about any of the lore and I have 1600 hours in the game LOL
To be clear, nobody's "making" anyone anything. The characters will be confirmed straight or LGBT.
The idea of having a perk that allows you to say "Wait, no... You can't, you can't, there's rules...I.. I.. I'm gay! I'm gay!" while in a Dying State, so that killer's ability to either pick or mori you gets disabled for 20/30/40 seconds is actually very neat lmao.
To be honest, this is a great idea. This may open new killers stories for the reason they kill.
I don’t care for it.
that being said - the last thing I want is new characters that have their whole design based around being LGBT.
I always found that to be a gross way of representing the community and using them more as tokens than actually creating an Character that happens to be gay. Being LGBT should be normalised and not used as a personality trait and I wouldn’t mind if through the tome, we find out that so and so are LGBT as long as it’s done correctly