Thought's on LGBT characters
I for one think this is a great idea, let's welcome them with open knives:
I for one think this is a great idea, let's welcome them with open knives:
Read THIS post.
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Yeah, same! Actually I have seen the tweet, read it, thought „ok cool, they managed that well and appropriate“ and forgot about it until forum posts shocked me XD
Alright, look, maybe I'm just pessimistic or something but I'd like to try and communicate to you the long term effects of things like certain characters being LGBT or cosmetics. Quick tag on @Orion too because it's directly relevant to our discussion and I'm going to catch some sleep after I make this post.
Imagine for a moment that there is a designated LGBT character or cosmetics relating to LGBT. Naturally, there will be people who target these survivors and cosmetics intentionally either for a laugh or out of actual hatred. The distinction between these two groups will be practically unidentifiable. What happens then? A fiasco, that's what. There's more than enough victim complexes around here to go around even without this stuff added into the mix. Now add in some political correctness culture to create a proverbial grease fire.
Is that a worst case scenario that will never come to pass? Honestly, I hope so.
We've had those same issues with black and/or female characters for 4 years and no fiasco ensued. Fact is, trolls get bored pretty quickly if you just ignore them. Hell, most get themselves banned because they go on record to say that they targeted this or that player for playing this or that character.
So yes, I believe that's a worst case scenario that will never come to pass. Even the threads you read about how "someone" said Leatherface wearing Claudette's skin is racist can't seem to provide a single person who actually said it. There's just no substance to any of these claims and the fact that the game is still standing strong (and growing) after 4 years is proof of it.
thats a scenario that definitely will come true to some degree (the targeting). And this is already true. There are people only targeting black chars for example, even for different non-racist reasons (if you believe them).
that should not be the reason to not include LGBT though. As it is not a reason to take black chars out of the game.
either you will not be able to tell if the targeting happened due to hatred or other circumstantial reasons: then nothing would even change for the players.
or those that do target out of hatred will put themselves in the chat, can get reported and BHVR will deal with this.
You should edit your comment to clarify that only the "targeting" part has come true, not the "fiasco" part.
Yeah was already in progress of editing.
Thanks. I just wanted to be sure we all understand each other.
Community request is exactly my entire point I have been making here (though you don't seem to read anything I have wrote?) I have said it multiple times, if the devs feel the desire to make LGBT characters in DBD, they would do that without anyone asking them to. DBD, again, is not a sexual game where we need LGBT or even straight characters, we don't need to know the sexual orientation of the characters here. Asking for such is nothing but pushing on agenda that has no place in DBD. You, just like everyone else in favor of LGBT, has failed to represent a valid argument as to why there needs to be LGBT characters in the game. All that you guys can say is that it's what you want. Heck, I want to ride a pony in DBD, but it has nothing to do with the game so why would the devs go out of their way to add it just for me and few of those within the entire community who want to ride a pony in the game.
"It does nothing to affect the quality of video games" - Tell that to Mass effect Andromeda and Overwatch, and the rest of all the amazing games that were heavily influenced by your ideology. There's entire documentaries made out of these games where people explain in great detail how the LGBT community went their way to change these games and how they affected the quality of them negatively, taking away from the majority while pandering to minority. Some of my favorite games have been ruined due to this LGBT stuff, so excuse me if I don't find this something I want to support. Again, I have nothing against LGBT in general, just when it's pushed on video games that have nothing to do with sexuality.
You think that people are against LGBT simply because they don't want that in DBD, but what you fail to understand is exactly the reason why they don't want it. There have been multiple comments stating "DBD is not a sexual game, so why do we need stuff like LGBT in it". To which you and everyone else in favor of this can only reply to as "You hate LGBT, why are you against it! There are straight characters in the lore so why not LGBT characters, bla bla bla"...
For the sake of this argument having any value to continue, PLEASE, explain to me why do you feel the need that DBD should have LGBT stuff in it. Do that and we have a real conversation worth to discuss.
I played ME:A and saw nothing of "my" ideology (funny that you know nothing about my ideology, but you ascribed an ideology to LGBT and because I'm LGBT, I must automatically adopt that ideology as well). Hell, the only reference I saw to LGBT was the fact that you could bone any one of your teammates (which you've been able to do since ME 2, I believe). I was more concerned about the egregious graphical problems like the absolutely haunting expressions.
I think that people are against LGBT because they had no problem with sexuality being in the game until it might include LGBT, yes. I don't think that's unreasonable. Say I gave you two identical desserts, except one was made with dark chocolate and another with white chocolate. If you didn't like one of them, am I supposed to assume it's because of every ingredient that they share, or the one ingredient that makes them different?
I don't feel the need that DbD should have LGBT stuff in it. It's gonna be put in the lore, which almost nobody even reads. On the other hand, since it can make some people feel more welcome and won't affect the gameplay, I see no reason to oppose this.
I'd like to conclude by paraphrasing what someone else said in another comment (not sure which thread): it's baffling that straight people can just be added to a game with no problem, but LGBT people require a reason for existing in that same game or else it's something that should be opposed.
Why is „there are straight characters in the lore so why not LGBT characters“ not a valid argument though? If your argument is „DbD is not a sexual game“ then why do straight characters have to be here?
also have this argument: BHVR see themselves as an inclusive company and they don’t want to intentionally exclude LGBT chars. They did not do it intentionally before, but now with the awareness they decided they don’t want to do it anymore.
You haven't seen how it's been written take your time to relax honestly it's literally as easy as having a line in the tome as simple as they did with David's
"His ex has moved on and she doesn't want to see his face. Something about being a sh*thead."
you could literally change she to he and you have confirmation that David is gay or at least bi.
It is that unbelievably simple that's all they have to do.
Mention a past/current relationship, say they had/have a crush on the specific person of the same gender
Actually at this stage I'm convinced that most people think they are going to write the story like this.
"Min was a lesbian she decided to go see her lesbian girlfriend for a lesbian party where they do lesbian things with other lesbian because lesbian lesbian lesbian lesbian"
Behaviour may not be the best at writing backstory dear god it just look at the retcon mess they did with Legion.
But as long as they keep it quick and easy it should be fine the top secret to adding in LGBT relationship that doesn't feel token is simply write it like a straight relationship we're not a different species the only thing that's going to be different from how you write a straight relationship is that there's going to be LGBT elements in it. ( Mention a past/current relationship, say they had/have a crush on the specific person of the same gender)
Your mass effect Andromeda comment did not bring forth the fact how the team behind the game was influenced by LGBT movement inside the studio which led to gigantic conflict within the staff that scared the development of the ME:A and eventually threw the entire production to a whole new direction that ended up taking focus more on the characters' sexuality than the overall gameplay and romance. Anyone who played the game can see that in every opportunity possible the game wanted to shove down your throat that a character was this and that sexually, something that was not present in any of the earlier titles. Of course Mass Effect is about romance and relationships between straights and gays, etc, but Mass Effect Andromeda clearly had an agenda to push and it shows strong. It was less about gameplay and more about "Look at this LGBT character, look how strong and independent he/she is! He doesn't need your approval!" Never before have I cringed during a video game than I did with when playing Andromeda, and Mass effect just so happens to be my most favorite game of all time. But let's jump out of Mass Effect and focus on DBD.
Again, I asked you to provide a valid argument on as to why we need sexuality or LGBT presented in DBD, to which you answered that we have a problem with the LGBT stuff now that it was brought up. No shieeeet sherlock? What? We are not allowed to raise our concern when something is brought up? We should just be quiet and accept it or else we come out as anti-LGBT? No, again, I am in favor of LGBT as long as they stay away from video games where sexuality is not one of the game's elements. If the devs want to push that stuff in the character background lore, I don't mind, but once they start to shove it down my throat via in-game characters, cosmetics and whatnot, then I have an issue with it <- It's a movement. If you want to raise awareness of LGBT, then do it elsewhere outside video games, or better yet, make your own video game where you can do that stuff as much as your heart desires. Heck, there already are people doing that, the difference between them and you is that they know how to use right channels to raise awareness. And don't try to say in your next reply that you are not trying to raise awareness, you already made that statement in your earlier comment so we know damn well what this is really about.
"I don't feel the need that DBD should have LGBT stuff in it" - Case closed then? Why are we having this conversation if you don't feel the need to have LGBT stuff in the game. If you continue this discussion in favor of having LGBT stuff in DBD, then clearly you do feel the need for it. Having read all of your earlier comments, I have the impression that you like to speak to people like starting fresh, like they had not read anything you wrote before that clearly contradicts your new statements. First you said you want to raise awareness with the LGBT, then you suddenly switched that and said you don't want to raise awareness. This whole time you have been speaking in favor of LGBT in DBD, now you suddenly say that you don't feel the need for that to be in the game. How about you make your mind and stick with it or else your little story falls like a house of cards.
People don't need to feel more welcome to video games by having LGBT characters in them. If they seek approval that way, then clearly they don't get video games in the first place. You paraphrased someone about how LGBT characters always require some kind of explanation as to why they should be added to a game where as straights have a green card with no issue. Well let me tell you something about why that is. It's because devs don't care about this stuff when they create characters for their video games. They don't make a character and think "Oh yeah, this guy's totally straight, let's go with that" - They just make a character, period. If you think that when a game has a straight character that is pretty much the base of all characters in video games and you automatically assume that the devs used braincells to come up with the character being straight, you are clearly in my eyes one of those people who like to wake up in the morning and look at a list that reads "How can I feel victimized today".
Stop thinking that this is a war against LGBT and start presenting valid arguments as to why you feel that DBD and its playerbase would benefit from having LGBT characters. Forget that straights even exist, just try to sell your idea rather than take a defence, and see if the devs like it well enough to implement it to the game.
Actually, the devs gave you their argumentation on why they (now) want to add LGBT+ stuff. They want it in their Videogame and just looking at the twitter responses from them to hateful/anti-LGBT comments: they don’t care if those people will stop supporting them, quite the opposite.
you may state your concerns, but really your argumentation is thin and nothing really speaks against inclusion other than „i don’t want it in my game“. The devs always had included LGBT into this game, they were just not confirming which char etc. This will now change. To what degree we just don’t know yet.
edit: another personal argument: the lore will be more believable and will not feel forced anymore with only straight relationships being mentioned.
I find it absolutely hilarious that you would call my argument thin, when I present a full case and all I ask in return is for any of you in favor of LGBT characters in DBD is just to tell why you feel the need to have them in the game, to which you constantly dodge having to answer. Probably because you really don't have a good argument to it, you just want to play victim.
Personally while I don't mind the inclusion of LGBT why does it matter if they are included or not? This game is about four survivors escaping a killer controlled by an unknown entity in another realm. If BHVR is smart about it sure I'm fine with it but if all the story turns into focusing on how a character is a gay person like with what Bliz started doing with Overwatch characters then that's only going to annoy and push people away. People play games for fun not to take part in a political statement. Just don't turn the game into a message in Identity Politics and it's fine.
Just on the off chance that I'm accused of being homophobic also. I am a gay man and I do not see the point in forcing the information in someone else's face. For example now that you know this about me does it change your view of my post? Probably not but I'm not going to shove the fact in your face every time I make a post. That's my same view when a game dev or company announces they're going to be more supportive of certain things especially in games. Almost every time it feels like a "mandatory" thing when most of the time they don't actually care and just come off as obnoxious. Again I look to Blizzard when I say this. I just don't want to see BHVR take a misstep with this after making such an announcement because believe it or not they're one of my favorite companies that work on games.
I refuse to type out an argument because I disagree with the premise that LGBT people need a reason to be included beyond the whims of the developers whereas heterosexuals do not. Make a solid argument for that first, and then you'll get one from me.
It's going to be written in the lore and not shoved in anyone's face.
I think David and Dwight had survived this.
It is between Jake, Ace, Adam, And Jeff. Since other males are licensed characters.
I gave multiple arguments, you just chose to ignore them because you don’t want to actually hear any arguments.
@Orion "It's going to be written in the lore and not shoved in anyone's face."
And if that's the case then that's fine. Keep everything subtle and up to the player to realize or figure out for themselves. If someone has something explained to them every time a chance is given it annoys them. It would be the same if I posted about my preference each time I posted. Would be unnecessary.
You could easily argue that I'm worrying about this too much but this is a touchy subject and one misstep and it not only makes BHVR look bad but it makes the game look even worse. I do care about the game and the topic but I want to see it done the right way. This topic is such a minefield as it is.
While on mind have you a statement from BHVR regarding this topic only being in the lore? As I said it doesn't matter too much to me as long as it's done in such a way where it's not what defines the character for example and always the main topic.
No, I don't have any statement from BHVR, but that's how it was done for every straight character thus far, so I don't see why they'd change it now. Nobody's looking for preferential treatment or representation here, just equal.
Oh hey. I found that threat. Buried under what has to be a Guinness record breaking mountain of paranoia. LMFAO
"I refuse to type out an argument" for a case that you presented in the first place, yeah, that makes sense. So you just want LGBT to the game because it has straight characters in it, that's your final statement then. Well now I really want that pony in DBD, good thing I don't even need to present a case as to why! I just want it so I am going to get it and anyone who is against it is anti-pony and should feel ashamed!
So you can't provide any argument for why LGBT characters require a specific reason to exist in a game, is what I'm hearing?
And again ignoring every other argument.
also, it doesn’t matter if you personally want this or Orion for that matter. If he was the only one requesting this (which he never did btw) then BHVR wouldn’t have given anything. Guess what: BHVR wants to add LGBT.
no, what you are hearing is what you want to hear. I have presented my argument to your request in my previous post, but of course you just don't want to acknwoledge it. But just for your pleasure because I am such a nice guy, here it is again:
"It's because devs don't care about this stuff when they create characters for their video games. They don't make a character and think "Oh yeah, this guy's totally straight, let's go with that" - They just make a character, period. If you think that when a game has a straight character that is pretty much the base of all characters in video games and you automatically assume that the devs used braincells to come up with the character being straight..." End of quote because the rest is not relevant to this case.
Now to add to that, I don't think that LGBT characters need a reason to be explained if they want to be added to a video game, only just when it doesn't make sense to add them to a specific video game, such as this one. Again, DBD is not a game about sexuality, so obviously you need to make a case as to why LGBT characters need to be added. The same goes for straight characters. If I want more straight characters to DBD, I need to present a case as to why and how the game and its playerbase would benefit from it.
Just because there are straight characters in a video game is not a valid argument to add LGBT characters and vice versa. Now what is a valid argument is the story part if you feel that LGBT characters would enrich the lore somehow, but on that part you need to go into details to strengthen your case. I don't see any reason as to why LGBT characters would enrich the story and the reason why is the same as before, because the game is not about sexuality, it never was and it never will be because all it is about is 4 survivors running away from a killer in the realm of a powerful entity, end of story. There are back stories to these characters, yes, but they do not revolve around sex.
That pretty much sums up my argument, now may I hear yours? Or are you going to say mine is not valid :D ?
Even though you will probably ignore my arguments again:
They are ever expanding their lore and backstories for their characters, and even though they are not mentioning sex directly they have already mentioned relationships. Now it would feel very repetitive if they only ever add straight relationships and this would also feel very forced. But relationships are a big part of many characters and may have heavy impact on them, may it be marriage partners, abusive exes, „the one that got away“ or just normal everyday relationships. It would feel very restrictive if no char ever had a meaningful samesex relationship. Now coming to trans: this is even bigger and can define a character completely, this also has nothing to do with sex, but with character and personal development, growth and for LGBT people it is the case that defining situations happen to be around this theme. Here is hoping that BHVR will not only focus on this of course, because that would be 1-dimensional and shallow, but why should they not acknowledge this if they have a character that is actually part of LGBT community? Why should they restrict themselves in this regard given the lore we have already in the game?
Now that's what I call an argument! well presented and well said! See Orion, you can learn something from Mooks.
I have nothing against BHVR adding LGBT stuff into the story, I never had and I have stated that on multiple occasions now. Where I draw the line is when and if BHVR starts to pander to LGBT community pushing a movement which is what usually happens when LGBT community raise their voice wanting that kind of stuff added to the game. Before we know it, we start seeing cosmetics with LGBT slogans and whatnot. I would not care even if they added something like that if it made sense game-wise, but since DBD is not about LGBT nor straights, stuff like this would break immersion and push forward a movement that nobody wants to see in their video games. We just want to play. But you are right on one thing from your previous posts, once these things become reality, that is a fine time for outrage not before, however, we do reserve the right to raise our concern for what a future can hold as we are not without any basis for our concerns - there is a lot to be worried about when it comes to feminists, SJW, and LGBT movements in video games.
I do belive that you are on to something when you say that stories with just straight characters can be 1-dimensional, but what they certainly are not is forced unlike you stated. If the developers want to tell a straight story, that is their decision, just like if they want to add LGBT characters or not, it is also their decision, I don't think that is something that should be pushed upon them. Now if they have stated previously that they support LGBT, that's pretty obvious for both as a company that wants to stay in business in 2020 and also as many who live in this century do understand that there is nothing wrong with LGBT in general. However, whether they want that kind of stuff to their game, it's all up to them. What you have told me, it seems they do want LGBT stuff to them, but what I believe is that this is something that was pushed on them, not because they geniuanelly want it. Many comapnies do that just to avoid backlash and PR nightmare.
That could very well be true, but looking at the tweet i don’t see it as directly pushed. They decided it for themselves, after getting feedback and realizing they already have contradicted their original statement.
looking at the tomes and the actual devs I would have guessed that they would have gone in this direction on their own eventually, they are themselves very diversive and have already shown that they are an inclusive company.
Also I guess some day they will also add LGBT licenses chars (Robin from Stranger Things plz) and this wouldn’t have a direct impact I would assume
also also: no one wants unnecessary pandering just for the sake of it. I personally really hope they will only mention it in backstories where it is fitting and actually contributes to the character building.
Let's hope it stays to that ^^
With "This is tracer all over again i mean the whining from people like :" why did they have to make her gay" "it's totally unnecessary." "only five of twenty people are gay" Instead of minding their own business.
Also i love the decision to make her a lesbian. I can totally imagine that and couldn't picture her as straight.
I can't say what you said about Twitter is true or false, since I don't have Twitter.