An MMR system for Dead by Daylight can never work
I'll start by saying I don't necessarily think this will improve or impair the actual quality of matches, so its not a change I'm particularly worried about unless it kills queue times.
That being said, its extremely easy to see why an MMR system cannot ever work for this game: There are too many variables. It is impossible to design a system that accounts for all of the variables that go into the outcome of a match. People have thought of solutions for years and there still are none. You just simply cannot do it.
Here's what I mean, with a line from the update:
"Going forward, we will use a hidden skill rating for matchmaking purposes. Your skill rating will increase when you do well and decrease when you do poorly."
Already this is now flawed. You cannot determine what "doing well" and "doing poorly" in this game is, so the system is based on a premise that is impossible to define to begin with. What killer are you? What addons did you bring? What map did you get? What perks do you have? What perks do the survivors have? Is this map bad for this killer? Did someone kobe? Did you get bad map RNG?
There are an infinite number of variables that result in the outcome of each match, and you cannot account for all of them, or even most of them. You're not a bad player because you got Blood Lodge with Wraith and everyone can see you at all times. You're not a bad survivor if you spawn in a deadzone with a Billy that comes right at you. With an automated MMR system like this, the game will simply draw the conclusion though, without taking anything into account. How do you even determine who is good at survivor? Is an escape good? If so, hide all game, get the hatch. You're now a God. Is altruism good? What if the killer is facecamping and you literally cannot save in any way. Are you now bad at survivor? What if its tied to how long the match goes? Billy slugs for the 4k in 2 minutes and is now a bad player.
What if I run Iridescent Heads 200 games in a row? Am I now a godly Huntress? Is this Huntress being compared to an addonless Clown with the same system?
The thing is, you CAN tell when a player is good. A person can spectate and KNOW "this killer is good, this survivor is good." A SYSTEM cannot ever do that because its impossible to code for every variable that happens. A good survivor might perfectly know the distance of a lunge and run through a pallet, baiting a swing, saving the pallet and wasting the killers time. A system is not going to be reliably able to record situations like that and assign a skill rating to a play.
You can't even determine how good a survivor is based on how long they last in chases. What if someone uses every single pallet on the map. Just straight up camps them. He makes the killer chase him for 3 full minutes. Now no one else has anything, they all go down instantly. Are those other survivors now worse?
Yeah. Its impossible. It cannot ever be done, and its not because the developers are bad or anything. No one can do it.
Comments
Could be an issue.
It worked amazingly in twisted metal ps3 until everyone just used server browsers. It took every detail into account
though you wouldn't need to know the exact number perhaps a ^ or ^^ to indicate higher than you, or much higher than you. and a down arrow or double down arrow for the lower or much lower than you. this tells you information without knowing specific information.
You are overcomplicating things.
Dota2 has more variables than this game will ever have and MMR works for dota. Depending on addons/maps that you got you can already change the value depending on the MMR, less impact when you lose, higher impact when you win same as when you face opponents that have better MMR than you.
The thing that I do advocate for should be that MMR should be visible and also how much you gained/lost each round.
To say it is impossible to code an algorithim which takes this into account is not true. What the devs need to do is to get rid of "brutal / relentless / mercyless " and define a clear win/loss for killers and survivors.
People kind of are doing that now with ranks. At least you know why LilTimmy69 goes down so fast is because he installed the game last week compared to HEX:Yolo who threw to derank or troll.
A hidden MMR will just lead to fustration because all that there is left to tell you how "well" people did is the BP gained.
Escape (+1)
Die (-1)
Kill 3+ (+1)
Kill 2 (0)
Kill 1- (-1)
DBD math dud.
I mean, it is possible
But very time consuming, as it would mean you have to do this for every killer. For instance, if you use instakill hatchets on Huntress, you have a score penalty
or take in mind the heal score event only after a chase ends and while that person is not being chased, like old BT
Same if you cannot heal him because of things like No Mither, deliverance, or being infected by Plague. Stop the timer there or do not count it as "you are a bad teammate"
but let's be real, the code will be so messy
I think this is a fair criticism. Bumping to keep this post near the top.
Yes they do. No shown ranks = less toxic people
I only see it as a skill that's measurable. Time, areas of map taken to, pallets used, windows/vaults blocked, killer proximity, hit or not hit, line of sight blockers are all measurable information that either exists in game or can be easily added (yes, I know it's bhvr and they don't have the best record of adding new stuff easily)
I also think it's a great starting point for the main aspect of the game, killer v survivors.
Sure, stealthy play is a skill in its own right, being bale to move around undetected is just as valuable as being able to keep the killer busy. I always think that's how the game should have evolved, rather than into the aggressive direction it took instead. But I get that stealth isn't for everyone.
No shown ranks = less players
There people who like challenge and do not enjoy being matched against baby players.
Also there are people who enjoy seeing themselves improve as a player.
You want to kick all those people out because someone laughed at your rank or whatever?
You know what? I have no idea.
I trust devs devs about the system itself, but I cant trust them about its execution.
Perfectly I would like to know all things that are considered in new ranking system, but I realize that it would make it vulnerable to abuse.
Basically I trust devs where I have to, but I would like to see for myself where I can.
Seeing the final Skill Rating itself is not much, but this is all we can request for. If we cant see it then we would have to trust devs blindly about everything and I dont want that.
I think it is possible to do fair matchmaking system, thats why I trust them.
But I still want to see matchmaking values (skill rating) to see if the system even works or not.
I for one have the utmost confidence that a developer who years later still has an unoptimized game that runs like poop on consoles, still has broken maps, still has worthless perks on both sides, still has loads of glitches in their game (literally got stuck in a pallet as Oni as I was typing this) and a dev that couldn’t handle a simple ranking system based on multiple failed pipping guidelines, can handle MMR in a game with tons of RNG and variables. Sounds legit.
I totally don’t think this is just yet another band aid being slapped on the game to hide another broken element, this one being their trash matchmaking.
Another point to further back up this tread is the killer different MMR. Although is the best thing and the only thing I liked about future changes, it still ignores the fact (I assume) that the same thing happens for survivors. A survivor might be good playing against a certain killer but bad playing against another it it will still not be considered nor it can be considered since the killer might change after the lobby is created. Hell, even the killer might choose a different one after the lobby is created unless it is blocked from the lobby search. If that happens, and all 4 survivors have toolboxes, the killer might want to put in franklin's demise, but wait, he doesn't have franklyn's with that character!!! Now what? Perks themselves are choosen, many times based on what killers see in the lobby so lobby dodging might be a more frequent thing.
I've always said and I stick to it that the best way to adjust matchmaking is just making it color based instead of ranking number. It will make bad survivors and bad killers out of the color more frequently. Than rank reset wouldn't push people out of the color but to the lowest number of that color so, a red rank survivor would go to rank 4 with 0 pips. Some small adjustments to the piping system would be enough to improve it after the color base matchmaking system is in place. Changing the matchmaking to color would improve the player experience by itself a lot in terms of being paired up with similar skill level players. The idea behind rank reset doesn't send people to the previous color is that whenever rank reset happens, people that get to the highest rank first don't get stuck without anyone to play against.
A small amount of "if's" would aslso help a lot like:
If a survivor survives, he safe pips.
If a killer gets 4k he safe pips.
Oh, but if a guy does nothing he escapes through the hatch and safe pips. Yes, it helps in the short run but in the long run (after a few matches) he will depip because it will basically be 3 against one continuously.
They can always adjust the game from there and I honestly don't think the changes their planning will be good because they will try to measure an unmeasurable thing: Skill. Too many variables to rightfully measure it.
I honestly think that BHVR missunderstood everyone when we said we weren't having fun because of matchmaking. We all know that there will never be a perfect matchmaking system in an assymetrical game with a lot of RNG. We only asked for an improvement so that matches don't feel so unbalanced. The current ranking system might not be bad (I've actually always said that) the problem is that matchmaking system is based on the wrong premiss: Rank number instead of rank color. All 5 players should have the same color (except for survive with friends were there's nothing to do about it but for that, basing the killer on the high rank survivor will do the trick since the others won't be able to keep up with him and the red rank survivor will be penalized in terms of rank for it has he should).
I'm usually red rank with both roles but i couldn't care less.
If you get matched with "baby" killers you will know. No need to see his rank. And if mmr is working you should get someone with same skill so your argument is invalid. Also, people played this game non-competitive until now as well, they won't leave if they can't see ranks anymore
Maybe you will know but you can never be sure.
I dont really see any problem with people seeing your rank, everyone in the match should be the same rank anyway
It's likely they don't have a solution.
Lots of potential problems with it. A Clown on Thompson house against 4k hr survivors isn't necessarily a bad player. Nor is throwing down objectively safe pallets a measure of skill. Unless map/tile knowledge = skill in this context. We'll see.
Some things are inherently stronger on each side. If you pick a SWF/toptier-killer with strong loadouts, you're gonna do better than a solo/M1-killer of equal skill.
Different killers should have own rankings for each player, so the potential of each killer matches the survivor skill. Toptiers can keep with good survivors, but lowtiers dont. Same for SWF and Solo ranking, so an optimal 4-swf player doesn't get optimal nurses in their solo queue games.
Its a start... cant be worse than the current matchmaking.
If the new system can just improve load times and connection, then I'm happy. I'm so use to playing with complete potatoes and sweaty killers I honestly dont care, just please end my suffering with the 10 to 15 min wait times.
Your video on that was pretty good, agreed
The emblems are probably as good as it'll get, they just need a logic-based and robust overhaul
They are going to go through with it anyways, because ######### community feedback!
I gotta tell ya, you have a couple of valid points but I think we should all stop drawing conclusions until the new system goes live (unless you're of course a clairvoyant or some sh1t lmfao). Let's be positive and hope that they actually make this work because matchmaking and the ranking system at the moment are both definitely broken and I think that's something we can all agree on.
Honestly this. Finding a game in a minute or less would be a dream.
People "predicted" how the ruin change would go down, and everyone was right
People know how MMR systems work, and it wont make any sense here
this whole "wait and see" thing people give the devs just comes off as patronizing when everyone knows how MMR works already
I think you’re off base on there being too many variables to find a meaningful way to measure relative player skill. The variables are present for all players and games are short and frequent, which works well for filtering out these “bad luck” RNG scenarios to a point where players that find themselves in them more frequently than others are simply making bad decisions.
Nobody can really predict anything lol and how could "everybody be right about the ruin change" when everybody had different opinions and thoughts? Some said the game would die, some said killers would camp more, some said killers would get better at applying pressure etc etc.
If everyone knows so much about video games then why isn't anybody giving ideas on how to fix matchmaking and ranking issues? If I knew about video games and I was an expert I would definitely be giving ideas to fix this issue and if you're not an expert in video games then how can you say that something isn't going to work when you haven't even tried it out yet🤣I know I know, you bought the game and you wanna play it not fix it that's not your job. But then at least be positive and hope that this time they'll do things right even if they've been doing things wrong lately lol you never know. Being negative won't get you anywhere anyways and yes I'm speaking only for those that are already complaining when the changes haven't even gone live yet.
Btw there's nothing wrong with the main comment, he's got many valid points but still we should all be down to give it a try even if expectations are low, that's all.
Who cares how they searched it just be nice and answer someone or don't but do not be rude. It is not that hard to answer or move on and ignore it. I did not know what it was either and even looked it up and would have gladly answered without being rude. =P
This is why this game should never be treated competitively, no matter how we feel about it when we play. Its 4 v 1, it is never intended to be a competition to give it so much thought to the point where we forget that its main goal is to simply enjly ourselves. I' m curious to know what is your real life job and if you have ANY sort of real life responsabilities, seeing that you have all this free time at your disposal to debate the state of a videogame . I love dead by daylight as much as all of you, and i spend my free time playing it to the points where , in the past 2 years i accumulated 2100 hours on steam. BUT to actually waste my time and thoughts on theories and hypotheses on a virtual reality, which at the end of the day this game really is, seems utterly pointless, childish , and it gives the feeling that you don't have any real life priorities. I'm sorry i come of as harsh/rude , i am a dead by daylight fan , but not to the point where i become so obsessed that i must analize every aspect of it as if its something essential to my existance. And i apologise if my comment seems unfair . I just don't see the point of analizing a videogame so much. I dunno....i guess thats my 2 cents on things. Maybe when everyone here will get to a certain age, have kids of their own and priorities, they will understand what i meen when i say that "analizing a videogame, reguardless if you love it or not, is a childish thing to do"
The last matchmaking system was just as bad too wasn't it? Long wait times and still not being paired up with killers and survivors your rank. If both systems are very ineffective and flawed what direction is DBD supposed to go in making a good and fair matchmaking? And shouldn't we choose the system that have the least amount of problems for people?(there's no such thing as a perfect system)
You are the same kind of person who would have written off smash bros as a "party game"
bruh this ######### from january
If you're referring to ScottJund, he's a full-time streamer and content creator. So, video games are his income.
yea the new system suck
Apparently you have enough free time to necro a 7 month old thread, read the entire thing, and then post some hippy bullshit about real life priorities. No one gives a ######### about your opinion on what is or is not a waste of time.