The Hillbilly Problem
THIS IS NOT A HILLBILLY HATE OR HIT-PIECE
Since nobody is properly reading this, here's a small sunmary for you so you can stop with bad criticism to shut down discussion:
- I'm not calling for changes or nerfs, besides insta-saw
- I'm not saying Hillbilly is OP
- I'm looking at his skill floor, not celing. Don't mention curves or flicks.
- I do not believe Hillbilly to be this "gold standard of balance".
So, with recent events, it seems that Hillbilly is now in the spotlight for everyone's hate. It was Nurse, then she got re-worked. It was Spirit, then Prayer Beads and Phasing body-blocking was removed.
While both Nurse and Spirit had actual problems, and I know that I personally hate on Hillbilly all the time, but I have a very serious issue to bring up that really is a genuine cause for concern. And that is that for the very little mechanical skill that Hillbilly does actually require, he's WAY to strong. And potentially the single STRONGEST killer in Dead by Daylight.
Hillbilly is a very straight forward killer, you have a chainsaw dash that will destroy pallets in (roughly) a 5th of the time it takes to break them normally, you have an incredibly fast dash ability (faster than a Survivor "Haste" effect) that can be sustained across an entire map and it's all tied to an instant-down ability, that only requires you to hold an activation button. With base killer statistics. And the coolest camera animation for movement.
Nurse is literally slower than Survivors, but her blink ability is very good at shortening a chase and can bypass the map. A small price to pay. She does also have the shortest lunge attack range, and that is actually a problem right now for, what I can assume, is a lot of people.
And yes, I play her. On console no less, but at lower ranks for now as my main account, a low green is getting paired with nothing but high purples. Super frustrating for a stealth killer main.
Spirit has the smaller killer stats, and a fantastic chase power. Being able to traverse the map with great speed and being almost undetectable is quite good, but you have a trade-off of you can't actually see anyone. Only their scratch marks.
Both of these fine ladies who ruled the top ranks are both "M1" killers, and I hate that term since it's only a PC thing. Myers, Oni and Ghostface all have an instant down, but require some sort of interaction and a build up. They sacrifice time chasing or damaging generators in order to get their instant down. Otherwise they're just a basic attacking killer.
Now, a lot of people are going to cry "JUNGLE GYMS!" or "INFINITE LOOPS!", but we can't always use them. Not every Survivor is a running god with map knowledge over every variation of the maps. Some are more easy to mind game out of their hiding spots, or cut off loops.
There is also a concern of the player base for Hillbilly. With that amount of mobility, it's easy to exploit perks like Kindred and Borrowed Time so that they don't proc, while still camping and tunnelling. Nor the concerns of those who actively body-block with the chainsaw revved in order to score a cheap and easy down.
I am NOT saying at all that Hillbilly should be put on the level of Legion or Old Freddy, and I'm NOT saying that we should make killers even worse, but for such a killer who has one of the lower mechanical skills, and is so rewarding compared to Spirit, Nurse or Huntress, there is just no denying that there is a legitimate problem here. We should be rewarding those who are playing higher skill required killers.
Hillbilly is rated "Difficulty: Easy" on his character profile and after playing him for a while now, I believe it.
Make difficult killers great again.
Comments
Attempt? More like hook, line, and what was the topic about again?
How is Hillbilly not OP with a one hit down map traversal power with hardly any cool down? I see a lot of players claiming he is balanced because he has everything he needs to win a game, but no other killer has that so I don't see that as balanced if he is the only killer has has everything in a pool of killers that have limitations.
Because he apparently has counters. I get that there are ways of avoiding his chainsaw, but it's not exactly the same as a basic attack.
For me though, it's that it's all in one button, and a lack of penalties. "OH NO, I hit a rock, now it's a FIVE second cooldown instead of a THREE second one!" But that's not what this thread is about.
This is that the dev's "golden boy" is currently top 3 in terms of raw power, top 5 at a stretch.
Because his power is very counterable by someone who has decent game knowledge. The only time he becomes a bit too much is when instasaw is involved. But, he's getting an add on update soon, so that should be resolved.
I have decent game knowledge, and I find Nurse WAY easier to counter than Hillbilly.
EDIT: not saying it's not possible, just a bit harder than other killers, and you need a lot more practice, but varies from person to person.
You haven't faced a good Nurse.
How much experienced players can counter a killer has never been a factor in balancing.
Hillbilly is from a different design era in the game and we will never see such a powerful killer released today because the devs have got better at identifying when a killer is too powerful.
I have, but that was before I learnt how to bait her blinks.
No, really, you haven't faced an actual good Nurse. You may think you have, but you haven't. Especially if you have trouble vs. Billy over her.
Under no circumstances have you faced a good Nurse.
Does a high purple P3, who slaughtered all of us before we got 2 generators done, without slugging, camping or tunnelling count? Oh, high purple shortly after rank-reset. And on console.
Console meta is pretty different when it comes to killer choice. Hillbilly tends to plague the game like Nurse has on PC. Since the Ruin rework and matchmaking kerfuffle, I've found that there is a much greater variety in the killers used.
Apparently you haven't fought a good nurse until she's won before the match even started.
No, you went against a decent Nurse. You haven't gone against a truly good Nurse if you are having trouble with Billy vs her.
No, you haven't faced a good Nurse if you think Billy is harder to counter than a good Nurse.
Nice try with the whole ignoring of context game. Your attempts to be edgy and witty have failed, literally every time.
😎
Consistently calling me edgy and proceeding to use the sunglasses emoji is pretty edgy tbh.
Look. In terms of Aus Xbox players, then quite simply, yes I have versed "good" Nurses. I do not play on PC so I'll probably simply never verse what PC players call a Good Nurse.
This really explains why you hardly see new killers sticking around in high ranks. I think the devs need to go back to 2016 with how they designed killer powers, addons, etc.
Have you heard of Spirit by chance? Freddy? Maybe even Ghostface to a certain extent.
Even the Billy defenders say his add ons are busted.
I mean, the Devs released Spirit, who is better than Billy. They also just recently released Oni, who is almost neck and neck with Billy in terms of strength.
I didn't have to explain anything. The person I referenced in my comment already summed it up perfectly.
Objectively speaking, Billy's build doesn't make sense within the confines of the game compared to how they have made everyone else. He has a one shot down mechanic, can cover the entirety of the map without any sort of cooldown & doesn't require anything to build-up his chainsaw, nor has any sort of downtime between the saws.
Oni has to collect blood & can't run forever. The new Gunslinger has to reload.
It doesn't make sense within their own game.
So just by the definition of how he doesn't have those weaknesses & the other killers do, he will always be better than them.
"Not every Survivor is a running god with map knowledge over every variation of the maps"
Doesn't matter, they should balance for top level play, not the lowest common denominator. if you don't balance for top level play then the game is inherently unbalanced and unfun.
To the jabrone above me: 100% false.
Balancing for top level play is how you kill games. You make the entry barrier for new players too high, so they don't have fun when they start.
No new players = your game dies.
^ kind of a good point to consider.
I've said before that the ideal spot for balance is actually purple ranks, not red. Things like the Doctor rework are also important to consider as it can destroy the experience at lower ranks.
ALL ranks should be considered, not just red.
By that concept, any killer without a power bar or a cooldown mechanic "doesn't make sense". Hillbilly just shows what killers had to be when survivors were gods, but he can still be countered with the tools a survivor has now. Since after all, they aren't exactly powerless. All he needs is an addon pass to get rid of his instant saw. Doing anything further to him will instantly make him worse than Oni.
People can't keep tell Killers to pressure gens but begging for nerfs to everything that allows them to. That's how you kill your game.
No, thats not how balance works. You balance for the top level play always.
Yes, there are things that sometimes low level play needs to be taken into account for, but not the core game. For example, i'd argue that the ruin change was good. Against bad survivors, it was a nightmare to deal with. Against really good survivors, it didnt do much, because at top level play they always hit great skill checks and/or can find ruin in the first minute or 2.
This video explains it pretty well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw"No mechanical skill" I don't think you are playing billy lol.
1: His chainsaw is super precise, so you really can't pick him up and master him. He takes a long time too learn and master.
2: If a survivor runs out of a loop/infinite that isn't the billy's fault. You can't change a killer because the survivor played bad.
3: You can't say "Don't bring up infinite's/loops because you don't have access too them all the time" because if you aren't at a loop, you deserve the insta down because you are out of position. Loops are literally the best counter too billy and forces him too M1 unless he's a god and can mindgame you.
Sorry, but Billy is fine as is, he doesn't need changes, what he needs are good cosmetics that aren't joke cosmetics. Once you learn how too counter him he's not that bad too deal with, and if he is getting you out of loops then you need too position yourself better.
Compared. To. Nurse. And. Spirit.
And the point isn't that he's OP, but that all the other killers are WAY TOO WEAK. If Legion and Hillbilly were swapped in strength, or strength perspective, this would be called The Legion Problem.
It's a symptomatic problem of the game that Hillbilly is both easy to play and so strong. Especially when referred to as the dev's "golden standard" of power.
So you're problem is that he's easy and strong? that's just silly.
You know who balances THEIR game around the highest level of play and had it backfire? Blizzard with Overwatch.
I said Purple because it is of a higher level of play than most players, and isn't patched entirely around exploiting wording on niche perks to make them a full meta.
Sometimes going for a bit more of a broader approach is better.
Why don't people actually read my posts?
That's sarcasm, by the way.
Fine. I'll word it a different way. He is too LOW RISK for the HIGH REWARD. The devs have said he is the centre of balance, the community says top 3. Every other killer is too weak and it is a problem.
Then how is this a billy problem lol? What the problem you actually are addressing is that all other killers need buffs, but that doesn't effect billy in the slightest.
The post is incredibly misleading tbh because this has nothing too do with billy or his mechanical skill at all.
I wouldn’t say hibilly’s skill requirement is low by any means. You can tel from a good or bad hi billy just from how the play. For example, do they know when to use their chainsaw at the correct spot? Do they rely on m1 to get most of their kills? Can they go around the every map without collision first try (with no add ons). Hibilly does require skill to play. Comparing hibilly’s skill level to be lower than spirit who just requires good headphone, is a joke.
If there was one thing they would nerf about him is that he can’t just constantly use his power after 3 second cool down. Like it wouldn’t matter if you dodge him once because he would just be right back on you in less than 10 seconds.
Really? The parts where I say that he has the lowest skill floor compared to all the high ranking killers is misleading?
The fact that he has mobility, destruction and an instant-down in one button with virtually no penalty or cooldown isn't a problem?
This isn't about specific players, it's about the character's kit as a whole and the way that it is problematic to the game at large.
Except for insta-saw.
Yeah no, it isn't an issue. He's been fine for 3 years, there's no need too chance what isn't broken. And it is misleading saying he has the lowest skill ceiling of the top tiers. There's simply no way he is less mechanical then Spirit, who you literally hold m2 and run at the enemy, you don't need too time it right or do proper curves with phasing.
Again, if you can't get too a loop against Billy then you deserve too be downed because you are out of posiition, and if you get out mind gamed that's on you, not Billy. He doesn't need changes because someone else can't loop him lol.
Floor. Skill floor.
If he had such a low skill floor, then there would be no bad Hillbilly players.
That kind of kills your whole narrative.
I disagree. Especially when this ENTIRE TIME I have said "compared to the top ranked killers".
Something that literally everyone who comments like you seem to forget, overlook or ignore
You can disagree all you want, really; but it literally breaks your narrative that the skill floor is that terribly low, when it's proven to not be true because there are bad Hillbilly players. If the skill floor was that low, he'd be pick up and play. As it happens, it's not, and there are people who can't play Hillbilly. So again, all due respect, you are incorrect, and the 90% of people in this thread telling you the same thing are right.
Oh. Right. The other 90% who keep prattling about HIGH LEVEL GAMEPLAY when that's not what this is about.
There are always going to be players who are bad at a killer. I never said that you'll be a GOD with him after a few rounds.
I simply stated that he is very easy to pick up and learn. I said that in the ranks you want to learn a killer, once you get the basics, you will destroy people.
I also made a point of saying that as the "centre of balance" that every other killer is too weak. The "centre of balance" is in the community's TOP 3 for power. Out of 18.
This entire series is about underlying problems, that are tied to a specific killer. This has never been about the killer themselves and if people read it that way, this would be a happier thread.
But no, can't say anything negative about Hillbilly.
Let me ask you this, if I replaced the names of characters and powers with thr numbers of their release (Hillbilly = No. 3, Nurse = No. 4, Spirit = No. 8) you think people would have had the same reaction? You think that they would have said the same points trying to refute a different argument, one that wasn't presented? And if yes, doesn't that show a giant, glaring double standard within the community?
Because there is nothing negative to say about Hillbilly. Nurse changes I was on board with, but Hillbilly is perfectly fine. Your thread is baity as all hell. You come in here with a baity title like that, and expect what reaction exactly? The problem isn't Billy. It's low tier killers.
And yes - if they knew No. 3 was Hillbilly, they would have the same reaction. Don't assume people are stupid.
Your entire argument is based on a broken logic. As I've said, there's a reason everyone is calling you out - and the reason is (wait for it, cause this will blow you're mind)...this thread is bait.
I like how
- After demonstrating where you stand in the ranking with Hillbilly with no perks or addons (with proof), people are still doubting your skill to 4k without perks to begin with.
- The solipsistic killer mains kept pointing to Nurse and Spirit as if they had to do with anything in this thread.
- You have a valid thread with really valid points, yet people misunderstood your main point.
It's honestly amazing at this point.
Well, the Spirit and Nurse thing is partly because I did specifically point them and say "THEY are harder to play, THEY should be more powerful" which is a statement I still stand by.
I do play with perks though, but they're not exactly strong perks and lower levels, which also reflect my killer rank. I'm in green normally because I find killer stressful, especially being a Pig main. My survivor experiences more than make up for that area, though.
As for misunderstanding my points, though, they probably only read the first paragraph or two. Or just saw me saying that there's a problem with Hillbilly's strength and went into Defensive Killer Overreact mode.
My statement doesn't change lol.
Wow, a killer that can keep up with gen rushing On most maps and punish out position survivors and can easily be forced to only using a m1 in most loops. But here we are.. Survivors crying once again about a killer.. The game already favors them from ruin nerf, so why not nerf another viable killer to s**t? Bet you the next killer survivors cry about next is Oni..
Man this game has really turned to trash, thanks dev team!
Wow! An original comment from someone who obviously hasn't read the full post! Didn't even see the date posted to know that it was BEFORE the Ruin rework. But here we are...... another person who can't read a post..... These forums are already a nightmare with the amount of personal bias going around.
Man these forums have really turned to trash. Thanks community!
After reading the entire post, I really don't know why you think billy is OP (I know you said your not saying that but from how you wrote your post you obviously think this.)
I don't know what you mean when you say Billy is has "lower mechanical skills". Sure his power is very simple, You hold M2 and you get to dash but it takes a lot of practice to master. I have seen rank 20 Billys' who start revving and then he smacks into a wall. Steering a chainsaw is difficult and you have to know when to activate the chainsaw at loops to get a down.
Also there are so many counters to his power. Here are some; T-Wall loops, Jungle gyms, 360, corn vision(Coldwind only), direction duke, corners, windows, infinites, pallets, and the killer shack. Like you dont have to be good at running to turn your character 90°, running infinites like Iron works isn't hard to run. Running the shack can be more difficult but with practice you can get a few loops from any killer. He is rated easy because he is easy for new players to get into killer not because he is easy to master.
It's not necessarily that Hillbilly is OP, but rather that he has way too much utility within a single button press. If I make him seem at all OP, then it is simply compared to Nurse, Spirit and arguably Freddy, within about 10 hours of playing them. This also ties into the "lower mechanical skill" aspect that I was talking about. It doesn't take a genius to know how to toggle the charge on his saw, or hold down left/right to steer. I am also a console player, so flicks don't apply to me for argument's sake here. I do concede that weaving does take time to learn, but if I can do it reasonably within 3 games, then by the theoretical 10hr mark, it shouldn't be an issue.
I'm also trying to leave player skill and related counters out of The [Killer] Problem, as there are too many variables within the playerbase to get any sort of meaningful results. Unless it takes zero skill, like bodyblocking basement stairs with a revved chainsaw. And yes, it is an issue I also have with Leatherface, but he'll have/has his own issue that will be discussed.
Hillbilly's key problems are that he is so easy to pick up and do well with, mostly compared to the other two within the "Top 3" of Nurse, Spirit and Hillbilly. Combine this with his championing as the "Center of Killer Balance" and this spells a pretty significant problem within the game. It just so happens to be tied to Hillbilly.
Thank you for actually being sensible and reasonable about your response too. It's refreshing to see someone calmly debate and respond rather than yet another "git gud" or "buh high rank" post that is unrelated.
We did it Pigmainclaudette, we did it!!! 😄