The Hillbilly Problem
THIS IS NOT A HILLBILLY HATE OR HIT-PIECE
Since nobody is properly reading this, here's a small sunmary for you so you can stop with bad criticism to shut down discussion:
- I'm not calling for changes or nerfs, besides insta-saw
- I'm not saying Hillbilly is OP
- I'm looking at his skill floor, not celing. Don't mention curves or flicks.
- I do not believe Hillbilly to be this "gold standard of balance".
So, with recent events, it seems that Hillbilly is now in the spotlight for everyone's hate. It was Nurse, then she got re-worked. It was Spirit, then Prayer Beads and Phasing body-blocking was removed.
While both Nurse and Spirit had actual problems, and I know that I personally hate on Hillbilly all the time, but I have a very serious issue to bring up that really is a genuine cause for concern. And that is that for the very little mechanical skill that Hillbilly does actually require, he's WAY to strong. And potentially the single STRONGEST killer in Dead by Daylight.
Hillbilly is a very straight forward killer, you have a chainsaw dash that will destroy pallets in (roughly) a 5th of the time it takes to break them normally, you have an incredibly fast dash ability (faster than a Survivor "Haste" effect) that can be sustained across an entire map and it's all tied to an instant-down ability, that only requires you to hold an activation button. With base killer statistics. And the coolest camera animation for movement.
Nurse is literally slower than Survivors, but her blink ability is very good at shortening a chase and can bypass the map. A small price to pay. She does also have the shortest lunge attack range, and that is actually a problem right now for, what I can assume, is a lot of people.
And yes, I play her. On console no less, but at lower ranks for now as my main account, a low green is getting paired with nothing but high purples. Super frustrating for a stealth killer main.
Spirit has the smaller killer stats, and a fantastic chase power. Being able to traverse the map with great speed and being almost undetectable is quite good, but you have a trade-off of you can't actually see anyone. Only their scratch marks.
Both of these fine ladies who ruled the top ranks are both "M1" killers, and I hate that term since it's only a PC thing. Myers, Oni and Ghostface all have an instant down, but require some sort of interaction and a build up. They sacrifice time chasing or damaging generators in order to get their instant down. Otherwise they're just a basic attacking killer.
Now, a lot of people are going to cry "JUNGLE GYMS!" or "INFINITE LOOPS!", but we can't always use them. Not every Survivor is a running god with map knowledge over every variation of the maps. Some are more easy to mind game out of their hiding spots, or cut off loops.
There is also a concern of the player base for Hillbilly. With that amount of mobility, it's easy to exploit perks like Kindred and Borrowed Time so that they don't proc, while still camping and tunnelling. Nor the concerns of those who actively body-block with the chainsaw revved in order to score a cheap and easy down.
I am NOT saying at all that Hillbilly should be put on the level of Legion or Old Freddy, and I'm NOT saying that we should make killers even worse, but for such a killer who has one of the lower mechanical skills, and is so rewarding compared to Spirit, Nurse or Huntress, there is just no denying that there is a legitimate problem here. We should be rewarding those who are playing higher skill required killers.
Hillbilly is rated "Difficulty: Easy" on his character profile and after playing him for a while now, I believe it.
Make difficult killers great again.
Comments
Billy is the gateway killer in high ranks, yes he is strong but not unbeatable by a long shot. A good team can still destroy a good billy. Now once you get used to high rank and are pretty good you can start trying out other killers and eventually you will have a few others that you play and do well with in high rank, which is why i call him the gateway killer in high ranks. This is why he is played so much and the reason why survivors want him nerfed because apparently we cant have a decent killer that is reliable against good survivors.
There's using it, then there's only using it while virtually body-blocking. If you use it in a chase to make distance, great. You have skill. If you walk around a rock or a tree holding it until you touch me, that's just abuse, especially since you could have M1'd me twice and hooked me already in that time.
It's abuse when it's all you do. You have mobility, destruction and an INSTANT DOWN in one button.
I am not complaining. I am stating observations.
I have observed that Hillbilly is too easy to play for his massive reward, especially against other high-tier killers.
Go back and read my opening statements. All of them. In great detail.
You're wrong.
Dude are you just really bad?
If you can't figure out how to counter him, watch OhTofu's guide. Yes, Billy is one of the better killers, but he's very balanced. The things 'most' Billys do are pretty easy to counter. If he's revving his chainsaw at every pallet, punish him and loop it again before throwing. If not, force the M1 and he becomes like every other killer. Don't get caught in the open and the average Billy can't get a chainsaw on you.
Given how you're talking I doubt you're anywhere near red ranks. If you are, you should be good enough at mindgames to counter the things better Billys do like flicks and chainsaw feathering. If you can't, you don't deserve to be anywhere near red ranks and need to get good. Stop whining on the forums and trying to ruin the game for everyone else.
No it is not abuse, i doubt you know what abuse is.
I mean flicking is not that easy. Spirit is more easier than hillbilly and yet no one complain about her.
And yet most games against Hillbilly tend to be instadown, zoom, instadown, zoom, instadown. The fact is most survivors go down to that chainsaw fast.
You NEED good survivors against Hillbilly. Meanwhile the Hillbilly players are often no better than the survivors they’re taking down.
Most people that consider him “the most balanced killer” are the same people saying killer is impossible, Ruin nerf ruined the game, and that everything on the survivor side needs to be nerfed. It tells you what a warped view of balance they have.
And yet I often see noobs struggle with Spirit. Yet they do fine with Hillbilly.
Hillbilly is easier for most inexperienced players to use than Spirit.
If that's the case, if that's what most games are like for you (because how dare you speak for everyone else), you need to get better at playing survivor.
🙄
Yes because I can control some noob hillbilly stomping the average survivors I’m put with.
Hillbilly is the pick up and win killer for inexperienced players. High strength, minimal skill required. Don’t forget to slap on NOED too.
Sounds more like a matchmaking problem than a Hillbilly problem. Thanks for clarifying. I forgot you were a god tier survivor. That's why you're complaining about Hillbilly.
😏
Ah okay. So you literally just said using his power in an effective and smart manner is the reason why. Good to know. Also, why would he M1 you when you're out of position, why would he use his power to his disadvantage? It isn't abuse to literally use what your power was designed for.
Okay? So what I'm getting is, nerf Billy because your teammates consistently out position themselves? I'm telling you right now, watch any half decent to good player with actual knowledge about Billy, and you will hardly ever see them go down to his saw. And no, his strength isn't too much for the skill it takes considering if you don't know how to curve, his saw is almost entirely reliant to survivor mistakes. The people who say he is the most balanced killer are pretty spot on. This is because he is one of the few killers that allow for both sides to engage in a very knowledge and skill heavy chase. The only problem with Billy is instasaw, and he isn't Spirit where chases are literally just a guessing game. If some players would actually learn how to play against him instead of crying nerf, they'd find he is likely the most balanced killer in the game.
and watch any half decent to good player with actual knowledge about Billy USE billy and you will see them instadown most survivors back to back.
Unlimted instadowns and map traversal....tHe MoSt BaLaNcEd KiLlEr. If he's the most balanced then every other killer aside from Nurse needs some serious buffs.
Well said
Partial Billy Main here. Wanna clear up first; not the best killer, got lots to learn, rank 10 atm, have reached purple (cause ranks like matter yknow?? No? Ok ok I'll move on)
Is Billy, or at least Insta saw Billy insane? Needs a change? Lack skill? What about the average Billy? What about Millies? Is Billy easier to learn in general? Take more or less skill than Nurse or Spirit?
Insta-saw Billy could use some changing. There is a notable difference with those add-ons and ofc they are my favorite add-ons. In my opinion, there is also a notable difference in skill with these add-ons versus without.
Average Billy without these add-ons (really just including the insta add-ons for the most part) is, in my opinion, one of the most balanced killers in the game, aside from maybe huntress and demo. Again my opinion. I feel Billy's basekit is counterable by more than just loops. Even out in the open, you can out maneuver a chainsaw, despite a 5m distance. I know it, because I have both done it and have had it done to me. Billy isn't like bubba where position is immensely important. It matters yes, but it doesn't tremendously hurt you. Granted, a solid Billy is likely to compensate for his mistake and go again or just M1 you. The point is, without the add-ons, his kit is solid and pretty balanced.
Millies don't need a change, they just need to practice. Unless they're meming.
You mention the ratings given to each killer, but I feel those are misjudged/misperceived. Hag is labeled as intermidiate, but I find her to actually belong in the difficult rating. She is quite different and requires a different strategic setup from the others. Unless you compare her to trapper, directly, then she Should be easy, yea? I'm not hating on your ratings, don't worry <3 just explaining my side and how I view those ratings ^,^
You mention that Billyboi is the strongest killer in game... He is definitely frightening in the right hands, but he is not the strongest killer. His one hit down and Bubna's are "similar". So does that make Bubba strong too? Both require certain niche situations, but Billy can still be countered, even in his niche (otherwise known as the open range or out of position). As I mentioned above, you can out maneuver a non Insta Billyboi.
Now. Skill. Does Billy require skill. In contrast to Nurse or Spirit there is significantly less area or gap for a Billy. Howeber. This does not exclude the fact that he does require skill in order to play. Especially a regular billy. His chainsaw is in itself, without addons, his skill. Your timing, movement, predictions; all matter when versing most optimal survivors. Of course nurse requires more, she has her drawbacks with huge reward if played well. So does Billy. Granted he is straightforward, but that doesn't eliminate his skill. I didn't get him immediately, and I started him after playing just hag up until rank 13. (This is when I first started killer, not anytime recently) yes, he can be an immediate grab for some, but he isn't for everyone and he does require skill on some level.
Camping and tunneling Bullies are strange and can feel so crappy, but I am among the people who understands it can be a strategic method, even when it's used on me. When it happens and there's room for it, do what you can to outplay the killer. Not saying that's the only way to handle it, just saying when there's room for it. Not all campers, including Billy and the best camper, Bubba, are unbeatable. They're overzealous chainsaws, eagerness to smack survivors, need to try and hook grab, are all things in which your ally can make a play between. And if you know what your opponent is doing (ie the leaving and coming back for a tunnel or for a camp), time it or wait a few seconds before saving immediately.
You say there's a problem with the lack of skill with high reward. This is due to how you feel about Billy. A lot of players, not saying all, have changed their opinions because of how many Billies theyve gone against. Before nurse and spirits changes, you would see so many of that killer every match and it got frustrating. Same thing goes with new Freddy now. Opinions change the more frustrations grow. It gets boring or tedious going against the same killer over and over, so it creates those same frustrations, which causes complaints. Im sure a lot of the people now who say Billy needs a change (NOT including you or every single person) are likely people who also found him to be balance like myself and others. I remember hearing from so many people via comments, forums, etc, on how common "billy is balanced, just fix insta saw" "billy is balanced" etc before this overpopulation of Billies.
You said you have played him and you are in green ranks. You said he was easy and you are against red ranks seeing you are in console like myself. You finding no survivors trying to not outplay you? In my opinion, a killers ability to kill shouldn't be based solely on survivors who offer no potential outplay.
Sadly though, because he is in the hatelight, so to speak, there is a HIGH chance they will look at him, if nothing else. Considering his standing with so many people, survivors and killers alike, if they change him immensely, there will be more annoyed people than we already have. Of course this is just speculation.
Just my input on the matter. I play killers in variety on who I own and again, not ze best killer around, still got lots to learn. I do, however, play a lot of Billy.
Hey look, survivors who actually knows how to correctly loop a Billy player!
https://youtu.be/HVVnLPcE3xs https://youtu.be/hMNWR9CaI8I https://youtu.be/YYYGSSt-Pm4The first Billy was actually an experienced one too. Unfortunately for him, he ran into someone who plays Billy a lot, and this knows exactly how to play against him.
Umm, isn't that exactly what I said? that you need good survivors?
People with thousands of hours running average Billys around the map. What are you trying to prove? should I post videos of the same people just going from instadown to instadown to instadown when they use Billy?
"Good players are better then worse players"
That really DOES sound imbalanced.
I'm actually in Red for survivor and posted this while in high purple.
I'm not exactly a "runner" and my tendancies to over-analyse everything make it harder for me to mind-game properly.
But again, this isn't strictly for higher levels of play.
I percieve it as abuse.
The survivors need to be good, the Hillbilly only needs to be average. Yup sounds balanced.
Red survivor, not versing them as killer. I've generally taken a break from specifically because of matchmaking.
My first Hillbilly game was against full-toxic purples, as a low green. THEN went to destroy other greens.
It's just the way I see it, if we want to go on about "skill" and "learning a killer" I'd say as a guess, an hour in Billy is roughly worth 3 on Spirit and about 10 on Nurse.
aahaha, Hillbilly OP 🤣
Every time I read it, it's just hilarious. You can tell a survivors skill by what killers they think are OP. Or that they think any are OP at all xD
I never said he was OP.
I said he doesn't take as much skill to match Nurse or Spirit and is too easy to pick up and do well with.
I'm over this thread now. Contribute or leave. This goes for everyone.
And this is why they're against it. They don't want their ez mode killer nerfed. You can tell they struggle by how they make out killer is "literally impossible" to win now that Ruin got nerfed.
Just slap on Hillbilly, instasaw and NOED and you're guaranteed to have good results no matter what.
Sad this is that I'm only using brown cooldown and reduced noise.
Real game-changing add-ons, you know?
That's understandable because of the notable difference in skill between those three killers. But that wasn't my only point in my comment. I was giving a counter to your points, I tried to bring them all up and when I mentioned your rank as killer, I wanted to see how often you used him and what the survivors are like. You say it takes now skill, I was saying it does, in a gist of things.
But I am not here to just blatantly argue, nor do I want to come off as doing so. I'm a lover of Billy, and I feel I have played him and versed him enough to give my opinion about him. Not saying you weren't allowing me to do so, just me rambling.
I don't like using Billy because he feels like hacks. Just instadown one, sprint across the map, instadown another. Repeat until 4k.
It's the same reason I don't like using NOED.
It does make me question though why I bother sweating with low tier killers when I could just pick this guy and have such an easy time.
Not specifically you. But there's a lot of it in this thread. I fully acknowledge you didn't say he was OP.
I disagree with him not taking skill. If they were the case, a rank 20 would be 4king every match with him. Hell, I face rank 1 Billy's who get looped to oblivion. On Coldwind maps, where they have an advantage. Since rank 20s aren't doing well with him, and Billy's win rate is not consistent, and he can be looped on the most open maps in the game....well, your entire rhetoric can be represented by tinky winky down below:
A rank 20 Billy is only doing well against other brown/yellow rank survivors. Period. A red rank Billy is getting looped and bullied as much as any other killer. If you want to talk about contributing, let's talk about the fact that you've been told he has a cooldown, and you refuse to acknowledge it as a cooldown, because it happens during an animation. Even though MANY killers have a cooldown animation. You just refuse to call it a cooldown because it destroys your entire argument. THAT'S what I call not contributing. Disregarding things that go against your view.
It was just a clarity thing. As for your points, they are better thought out than everyone else's "arguments" on this thread.
For me though, a lot of them are based around player and survivor skill. Something that I was trying to avoid mentioning, and probably failed.
It wasn't specifically no skill, unlike NoED or straight insta-saw, but it was specifically COMPARED TO Nurse and Spirit. Even Huntress.
Demogorgon takes WAY more skill than Hillbilly but gets less reward.
This is a problem to me and what I tried to highlight.
NOED is situational, and only exists if survivors allow to. So that argument is invalid. Insta saw hasn't existed since they reworked tinkerer nearly 2 years ago. You can get a fast saw, but instasaw is non existent. Even WITH the fast charge addons, if you're at a loop, you can easily force a Billy to M1. If you're caught out in the open, which is your own fault, you're screwed whether he has those addons or not. Another irrelevant argument.
Even if he was easier to learn, which he isn't (and it's proven by the fact that most Billy players are potatoes, even at red ranks), there is NOTHING wrong with some killers having a lower skill floor than others. Also - Huntress is way easier to use than Billy. Take it from me. All you have to do is have played a shooter with bullet drop and prediction in your life, and boom. Huntress is a cakewalk to learn.
Look at this thread alone. When 90% of the community at large not only disagrees, but refutes completely what you are saying, perhaps the issue isn't everyone else. Perhaps it's just you who needs to brush up and get better at playing survivor. I for one love facing a Billy, because I know that when I do, I will be able to deny him his power. 100% of the time.
There, there's your contribution. Now tell me more how he doesn't (when he totally does) have a cooldown. 👌
I understand. When you look at it from the average survivor/killer, it can be a different story. This is because of the skill differences between high and low or veteran and new players. Your average player isn't going to fully understand the looping/position/etc, this goes for both sides. The killer won't necessarily understand what he or she is doing, just that the pallet is their enemy and it's breakable, which is why so many unsafe pallets are broken via an average killer. Billy's add-ons also enable that ability to just do as @ClickyClicky states; run around instadowning until you get the 4k. This normally only goes for those add-ons though. Ive noticed we can all agree his addons are the problem.
I feel we do need to take in account of player skill when analyzing these killers. Not necessarily as our main catalyst or how we view it specifically, but it does need to linger in the back of our mind. Billy is strong, rather can be strong in EITHER the right hands OR his addons. At least, this how I see him. I consider myself an average Billy, despite being a partial main, and I can account for several losses e.o *shivers* them some dark days. Some where I made many mistakes, didn't apply pressure, or it was just out of my control.
Also, for everyone, if a player isn't contributing, just pay them no mind. You'll honestly get a headache trying to have them give their pov instead of being blatant. This is towards both sides. Where there's a debate, continue the debate, as long as it has standing ^,^ and by standing I mean an actual intellectual counterpoint, not just blatantly arguing or leaving no room for discussion.
Well, you would think that a lower skill floor would mean less power, or WAY more hidden power. Hillbilly places his chainsaw on the desk and goes "I can do this, this and this." Not telling you about flicks, which I can't do on console with my sensitivity anyway.
If Billy is to remain where he is, WHICH I'M FINE WITH FOR ANY MORE COMPLAINERS, then half the roster need major buffs. Which I want. I want killers to be scary again. Just make their strengths super strong and their wealnesses crippling. Just not old Freddy or Clown level cripple though.
I played one game of Huntress when I was new to the game in an Customs match and it didn't end well. Her aiming is hard. Should practice her on the smurf.
NOW you're on to something that makes sense. MOST killers need Buffs (clown and bubba most of all). Doctor just got a really good one, and he's in a perfect spot right now.
Billy, as others have said, in terms of potential power, is where ALL killers should be. He has a strong side, but his weaknesses are crippling. If you run into a loop and are even half decent at working the loop, even if it's just running around a rock or a tree...Billy may as well be Wraith, or Clown at that point. His chainsaw is now useless.
If people weren't forced to face Billy's so damn always (and Freddy's) because they are really the only 2 killers with the ability to apply a strong amount of pressure, there'd be a lot less complaining. So yes, the solution is to buff killers.
With the exception of the Clown, The [Killer] Problem is mainly to look at the "average" player, so somewhere around mid-purle. Knowledgeable about the game, but has probably only got red skills in one area of the game, for me that's stealth, and how certain killers are problematic.
Clown affects all ranks, because there are just too many problems, and (when I get to them) the Ghostface/Wraith ones will tend to slip into lower ranks because of a noob/playerbase specific problem.
Oh clown lol that killer. I know he isn't a top tier killer, but I haven't learned the best counter to him, like effectively, and it can get annoying at times. I'm like "eeeek stop making my screen all fuzzy! Already have trouble seeing!"
This is what I said in the start, at my conclusion.
I'm fine with his high play, but have problems with his floor. The devs have stated that he's the centre of balance, but is the easiest by far of the top 3.
This is The Hillbilly Problem.
Now, who next? I'm thinking Pig, but maybe to a GF/Wraith double as their big problem is a shared one.
Go read The Clown Problem then. Unfortunately, I didn't touch up on the screen blur, but that's because it's one of the few things really going for him.
I don't play him to give feedback other than my personal frustrations going against him. That, to me, isn't enough to give a reasonable counter argument or an understanding agreement. But thanks for telling me so I could have the chance to post if I wished to ^^
But not because that Hillbilly is skilled. A pro in any sport will make the game look easy when viewed from the sidelines.
This mentality is why killers are being balanced around brown ranks. Nerfing viable killers, even their good addons, so they are incapable of dealing with genrush teams.
Huntress?
This. All of this.
No the hillbillys I'm referring to aren't that skilled. You don't need to be that good when you have an unlimited number of instadowns, minimal cooldown, and can cross the map in seconds. Hillbilly carries average players a long way.
You never see average players get carried that far with Spirit or Nurse.
You know who was balanced around brown ranks?
Doctor.
Look at him now. One of thr better killers in the game. Survivor bias indeed.
He moved from lower B tier to upper B tier. That's about it.
He's playable in all ranks now. And is WAY better than his original itteration.
How do you know they are average?
You want the same thing done to billy as was done to nurse don't you?