What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?
We're all here arguing about the changes to ruin, but what would really make you be ok with it?
The developers have already stated that an increase of gen time is unlikely, so throw your other ideas in here
Firstly, * I think Ruin should at least increase the amount of skill checks, with the removal of required greats when ruin is up I think it would be fair to increase the amount you recieve, and while checks aren't hard, they still do get missed, and they still make an alert.
Secondly, permanently make generator skill checks smaller, and decrease the size of great skill checks, as the boost from those is pretty significant if you get a lot, and they are no longer required to be large so you can hit them during ruin.
and Finally, a toolbox rework.
- Remove the increased speed of generators
- Make it so it reduces skill checks/increases their size
- Make up for the removal of gen speed, by allowing them to break dull totems quicker, this prevents them from countering thrill/hexes but encourages people to go for totems to remove the chance of NOED, thus wasting time
Addons can be reworked to make skill checks appear slightly/moderately/considerably less. BNP could remove the chance of skill checks up to 50% of the generator, it then expires. Keep all sabo features as they are
Thoughts, ideas? Too little? What are YOUR ideas?
Community Ideas:
- *Obviously a bad idea, but is it a bad idea if the greats don't increase gen progression, then you just have to face more skill checks like you normally would but without the boost.
- Map sizes are being mentioned a lot, I think the majority of us can agree that some maps need tiles removed, trim off the fat, offer more pallets (Unsafe & Safe) but remove dead space. Good examples Sheltered Woods, Rotten Fields, Thompson House, Disturbed Ward
- General Reworks to some "trouble perks" DS often being mentioned (removal of protection after another has been hooked)
- A rework of totem positions (possibly making them appear less obvious, less luminosity, smaller frame. Additionally just making them all dull as an option.
- Possbily? Making ruin a non hex perk (For what it's worth I think having gens just permanently regress because someone isn't on it is far too strong.
- Increased Toolbox Consumption W/ Ruin
Comments
They changed ruin because all the killers running: Ruin, Pop, BBQ, Thana or DL with slow down add ons. Survivors know your build before the game even started.
That's it. Hook, pop, hook, pop, hook pop.
Now we'll see how many of you were ruin reliable. Because a lot of you, ruin carried you hard. Ruin was the killer, not you.
Remove the devs who thought it was a good idea to rework Ruin without at least reworking California sized maps first, or at the same time.
Seriously, you have these massive maps, and depending on spawn, you can spend a gens time worth just getting from one end to the other. If maps were smaller, more well designed, I could see where Ruin wouldn't be as necessary. But no, that's not how things are right now.
I'd also remove the current Hex form, just make it a perk. Maybe tone it down to 1.5 instead of 2 at max, but still. Hex totems don't last into late game. Whoever thought of making Ruin into a LATE game hex perk is delusional, or doesn't actually play higher tiered matches.
My only honest suggestions would be to reign in map sizes and maybe add a new objective for survivors to do. It's pretty boring with holding down a button being the only objective. Having to search out parts or flip a couple of switches to activate the exit gates once gens are done could be helpful on both sides.
I think most of the frustration people are feeling isn't actually about Ruin at all. Many of the posts are symptomatic of mechanics and design choices. I don't run Ruin anymore, so that isn't as big of a deal to me. Ruin was a bandaid over a problem. Reworking it doesn't change the problem: if survivors spread out and actually do gens, they should win almost every time. It's just my opinion of course, but the game seems balanced around suboptimal survivor play, and it's jarring when you run into optimal survivors on comms. You just feel helpless. You can end chases quickly and it just won't matter. And due to the asymmetry, it won't feel like you got outplayed, because the two roles aren't really doing the same thing. One side is holding M1. Not trying to minimize the survivor role, I'm just trying to explain how it feels at times.
I Feel like they should add a switch or something that is across the map that you have to interact with to be able to work on the gens. The issue is that Survivors have immediate access to there objective whereas killers have to go across the maps to get at theirs and with big maps like Mother's Dwelling and Temple of Purgation it takes like half a gen to cross the map. Things like Ruin and Corrupt achieve that but now that Ruin is gone there is only Corrupt but it should be a game mechanic.. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
This is why I suggest they all be unlit. They were supposed to be another Survivor objective, but as they stand now, it's too easy to just cleanse the one that's bothering you and call it a day. Good Survivors will cleanse them all throughout the match, just to prevent NOED, but if you don't know which one is the Hex, this slows the game down a bit without changing anything else.
I don't want to see gens take more time to complete, that gets boring AF. But giving a Killer more time in the early game, Survivors looking for totems to cleanse instead of just searching for that one that shines like a neon billboard, will make the game more balanced than any tweaking of a single Perk.
The reason so many use Ruin, at high ranks at least, is to get the little extra pressure it affords them. No great skillcheck bonuses, potential regression for failed greats, and it's also a bit of a placebo. I know I have issues if I'm tag-teaming a gen and Ruin is up, I will fail skillchecks looking to hit that great. But put me solo on a gen, and I can power through it without an issue, maybe adding 10-15 seconds or so to it from goods.
I'd even go so far as to add another 1 or 2 totems to the match itself. 5 is pretty shallow for a totem pool on some of the larger maps. Make it 6 or 7, make them unlit, and then you might have a good balance with the new Ruin.
You'd have to have multiple switches, because the killer could just camp, I like the out of the box idea but it would certainly need certain changs, I think.
@Rivyn 😑
Your feedback is valid but starting with an insult won't help you get your point across. I am sure there are better ways to say what you said and still convey your frustration without insults.
Here's what I can undestand from your comment and I am sure you can express it better:
*I am frustrated that the Devs changed Hex:Ruin before looking at map sizes, I think it should have been done in that order*
EDIT: Typo
Yeah sorry i mean like a switch for each gen sorry i didnt explain it so it would be hard to camp them
I honestly don't think killers want to go into the route of adding more totems, it just increases the need exponentially for team play without calling it something negative.
Expecting a team of 4 people who "shouldn't" talk to each other coordinate 7-8 totems to prevent a perk that may or may not be there would be a huge feat, on top of combating gens slow down perks & killer pressure, it would have to be accompanied by a totem counter, and I can bet the last gen never gets popped if there's one still up.
Well, when you're a green-ranked Killer getting constantly matched up against whole teams of red-ranked Survivors, you need to leverage every advantage you can get.
I'd love to use a build that's less obnoxious and less annoying to play against, but I don't want every single match to end in a humiliating defeat because all of the survivors are 6 ranks higher than me. It's way more fun for me to play against survivors that are actually at my skill level.
Maybe make it activate after 2 or 3 gens are completed?
They definitely need to rework a lot of the maps in the game, make them smaller and filled with less dead areas. It shouldn't take any killer in the game half or more of a generators repair time to walk from one end of the map to the other. Many of the maps need better balancing and well known windows where you can loop the killer for a few minutes have to go away. Ruin helped balance it out, with that gone, well it'll certainly be interesting to see how things change in the coming weeks.
If I recall correctly the Map design team was only a few people. With ruin gone fixing a couple of maps a year went from being annoyingly slow to borderline intolerable. I really do hope they relocate or hire new people into the map team to start fixing glaring map design issues at a far faster pace.
Also Make skill checks actually somewhat difficult at least, they are far to large and pathetically easy to do. Not so much a "Skill check" as a "Are you still awake?" check.
Good luck with the Pandora's box you opened.
Move it to you have to kick it instead of just ALL gens not being worked on, turn it into a perk at that point. That would give it better Synergy with things like pop and Overcharge.
Making corrupt default and changing the corrupt perk to something else could actually be a good idea (and way more sensible than making old ruin base)
We don't need MORE gen regress/slowdown perks stacking than we already have. The games get pretty boring as is.
I'm under the impression that new Ruin can be good
But my only complaint would be the regression bonus is based off of killers base kick regression... I think Ruin need to be the middle ground between survivor repair times and base killer kick regression
P.S. it takes 320 seconds to regress a 99ed Gen that needs to be looked at in conjunction with overall Gen times (repairing with toolboxes and perks)
Here is my idea how it could work:
Working alone on a Gen: 2 Skill Checks appear in one circle. (No Great Skillchecks involved)
2 or more Survivors: 3 Skillchecks in one circle.
(If someone remembers the Game Shadow Hearts, the Combat System works with multiple Skillchecks in one circle, this is where i got the idea from)
Hitting just one Skillcheck will give the Regress from Ruin, like it is now.
This forces Survivor to split up, if they are not confident with the Skill Checks.
Something similar to identity V. Gens progress slower until the killer gets their first hook (it returns to normal after 2 minutes if the killer fails to hook anyone), along with nerfs to toolboxes.
Making some of the maps smaller and removing the god loops would also help a lot.
Honestly,I would remove the hex and make it like this;
The first 8/9/10 skillchecks survivors get are altered and become hex skillchecks. Would be fair imo
I'd say make it a dull totem if every other totem is cleansed so noed activates or change it to 100%/200%/300% regression or let it be as is and remove the hex from it.
Smaller maps.
One of a few things, or a combination;
First, change generator times to be scaling. While 7 gens are on the map, make them take significantly longer, but then decrease the time it takes to complete gens when 3 remain. That would make it so that 3 survivors sitting on 3 gens while you chase survivor number one would take a much longer time and not necessarily result in 3 going off at an unreasonable time. Cooperation would be more efficient without blasting through gens in 30-40 seconds apiece, but then survivors would also not be punished by exceedingly long gens as the game goes on. The early game needs to be stalled somehow, because having 60% of the opponents objective complete when you've done 8% in a reasonable time is just obscenely stressful.
Alternatively, the only perk that guarantees a slowdown in the crucial time period of the game has now been lost. To compensate, the tools which allow survivors to greatly stall killer momentum need to be adjusted so that you don't start with an easy 3-gens-done early game and transition into a mid-late game where the killer is constantly shackled by protective effects and extra hits. Without going into huge depth here;
Lastly, make other stalling perks actually have some form of effect earlier so that you don't lose so much of the objective just because all the pallets are on the map in the first chase. Ruin was so valuable because it had an impact while in the first chase which is when so many gens go off that the game can feel lost from the get go. Nobody really enjoys playing a drawn out 3 gen to scrape a win.
These are all pretty minor changes that would just improve the quality of the game for killers without being very different at all for survivors. It removes a lot of the shackles placed on killers who are already stressed just to get their perks to feel like they work for their side, and are designed to be fun to use.
I feel like the Ruin change will be healthy if the problem it was added to fix was actually addressed. This may have been months in production, but having a rework ready doesn't mean it has to be released right now if it's going to vastly change the balance of the game without simultaneous changes.
Edit: also a fair few maps really need the Blackwater Swamp treatment of shrinking them down and removing a lot of the extra space. Size of the map seriously impacts how many gens can be done before a chase initiates or completes, and maps like Mother's Dwelling, Temple of Purgation, Rotten Fields etc are just unjustifiably large for how few unique assets are present on them.
Most importantly, and I really hope this doesn't have to be said;
Address the issues players have with the pacing of the game, do not sell us a band-aid solution in the next DLC.
Remove the hex/totem part of new Ruin.
Maybe limit gen speed stacking with perks/toolboxes.
For example no Prove Thyself and Resilience combined with a Commodious that has instructions and socket swivels.
A second survivor objective with a cool reward like the Hallowed Blight flowers. Spread something across the map like that.
What if you had could run across the map and drink water to cure exhaustion? What if you had to take a long way around a map due to an environmental hazard like a poison gas? What if you could interact with the map say find/hack a computer to make passing through safer?
There are so many ways to make things take longer without them feeling tacked on. It would just require going outside of DbDs current simplicity. @SenzuDuck
These kind of changes would make ruin being different not a big deal to anyone because less focus is on gens.
Simply it depends what going to happen with ruin when it comes to the live version. If they are going to fully change it like it is in the PTB then I would say remove it as a hex totem. It really depends on what's happening with ruin at this time and what the devs have decided to do with it. (If it's going to get a buff then hits live, not touched at all, etc). As for totem placement and maps, that's another topic which can be sorted out in the future since this effects all totems and not just ruin.
Loving this topic so far and enjoying reading the suggestions on here.
Everyone here pretty much commented my thoughts :) I would say the power toolboxes have or maybe reduce some map sizes.
Just get rid of the hex in it and it will be decent.
I apologize, my annoyance at this whole cluster duck has me on edge.
There are issues that needed to be looked at and resolved, before or at the same time, as the Ruin change. Changing it now, and leaving the previous issues unresolved, is just going to promote even more toxicity.
New Ruin shouldn't be a Hex. It's strong when used right, yes, but considering map size, and how quick it's destroyed most of the time, it'll rarely make it into the late game, as the patch notes imply. And even if it does, what's the point? Survivors bring their toolboxes and perks, combined with the map size, one decent chase and two gens pop. Unless you manage a three gen, New Ruin won't do its job.
Then comes Surveillance. A good combo, but you need a second perk to make the first worthwhile? A perk should stand on its own, not have to rely on a synergy with another to make it worth its time.
My point is, either decrease map size in order to justify New Ruin as a Hex, or keep map size and remove the Hex. With smaller maps, low tiered killers could patrol more effectively, and New Ruin's mojo could be more beneficial. With the current map size, there will be cases where New Ruin will be destroyed before a killer can even walk across the map. No point. Remove the Hex, decrease the effect from 200% to, say, 175/150%, just so it's not stronger than other perks.
Let it have regular skill checks, but all gens have a speed Debuff of 25%
@Riveate I appreciate your answer and again, your feedback makes sense. It just needed a little improvement on the delivery. 😊
what if ruin just removes great skill checks altogether ala demogorgon portal style. this with making skill check zones smaller and more frequent. also keeping the regression penalty when not getting worked on. i think that would make ruin good enough to use but not a top tier noob stomper.
I've always said the simplest change to the core gameplay of DbD is all that would be necessary to help killers of all types gain/maintain gen pressure:
Kicking/starting gen regression automatically takes 10% off of a gens progress before regular regression begins.
This would apply to all killers by default, and for obvious reasons it would call for a few small adjustments to existing perks, like Pop goes the Weasel only applying a 15% reduction to gen progress that gets added onto the new default 10% loss, but overall what does this change do?
A killer attempting to defend a single generator can see it completed in front of them by a team of 2 survivors because no matter how many times they kick it, or how effective they are at pushing survivors off of it, unless survivors don't touch it for 32 seconds, it's not going to lose even 10% of its progress. That's how much time it represents to a killer, 10% = 32 seconds at normal regression speed, whereas a lone survivor without tools to increase their repair rate can fix that 10% loss in only 10 seconds. Ruin brings killers closer to that by dropping 10% every 16 seconds instead of 32, but its a Hex and won't last to the late game its been redesigned for.
Therein lies the primary flaw in the logic behind Ruin's rework: Its designed to be better in the late game! No killer players ever take a Hex Perk into a trial expecting it to last more than 2 minutes at best. The moment survivors are notified of any Hex perk working against them, they find and destroy it before it can do any major damage. The new Ruin will be treated no differently because not only are they notified of its existence, its also a glowing 1500 BP totem that have a poor history of being hidden well enough to last. I've had games where I've brought in Thrill of the Hunt alone just to see how fast it dies, and like all Hex perks, it hardly ever lasts more than 2 minutes. Survivors are never going to see a Hex totem and then Choose to let it stay active until they feel they need to cleanse it... if its lit, it dies.
In Ruins new state, the 200% regression speed is still nowhere near to being on par with how fast survivors can repair generators, much less when they have Cooperative actions, Toolboxes, Add-ons and Perks that increase their repair rates dramatically. Keeping pressure on generators is always a losing battle for the killer because unless they are downing/hooking every survivor they encounter and getting back to the generators to keep them regressing, every 20-25 seconds, there's no way the average killer can compete against the survivors repair speed, even with all the right tools.
By having generators begin regression with an immediate 10% loss, all killers get a better chance at applying adequate pressure in early, mid, and late game. Sure it only buys them 10 seconds or less on a generator that's near completion, but the killers experience is always a struggle against time, and that 10 seconds may be all the leniency a killer needs to turn a game around.
If this proposed change were implemented, I feel that everyone would've been just fine with the upcoming change to Ruin.
What I've seen so far that I like:
Basekit changes for gens:
Honestly just work on the early game.
I think map size would be the best way to look at it.
Once you start getting downs the game slows down. That`s pressure 101, and that's why early game slowdown perks are the most used. Because perks like Pop and Thanatophobia only start working when you're already applying pressure.
If the killers' earlygame were better no one would even need Ruin. I feel like either making some maps smaller or fixing spawns so that survivors don't spawn on the edge of maps often would make it ok.
I know the importance of the early game can be overrated sometimes (it's entirely possible to stomp a game after a horrible early game) but it feels awful to have to concede gens or just have them pop before you can phisically get there.
One thing that's also VERY important: DS needs to stop working in locker grabs.
DS can be annoying overall but the biggest offender is the locker invulnerability it provides. It's not fun nor interactive nor skillful to just jump in a locker and stare at the killer while they can do nothing, especially if it's paired with Head On or Inner Strength. I feel like it's the only survivor perk that's imbalanced right now.
The one thing that needs to happen is that the devs need to get out there and make it clear that they understand the problems of the killers.
The optics aren't great, strong killers like spirit and nurse got nerved and now they nerv a perk used by 80% off red ranks, without showing an understanding why it was used so commonly. The anouncement of the doc rework only talks about how it is to play against, not as him.
Behaviar has two options they can ether try to regain the trust of killer players or hope that the changes work as they belive they will do.
I don't think this game will survive if don't act to regain the trust of the killer part of the comunity
I disagree with people that think it should no longer be a Hex.
Personally the perk is fine, they just need to fix map rng and tweak some of the larger maps so it isn't a hindrance to play on
Well all we need is to slow the gens during the 2 first min maybe ? To give a chance for ALL killer in this game to apply pressure
Also this game have too much snowball on the two side
Ugh same difference.
End of the day a tweak can be big or small.
Hmm, actually making killers the way they should be? Scary and dangerous? I mean, right now - put great survivors vs great killer and survivors will always (at least over 90%) win. Game is only being balanced around baby survivors crying about this, crying about that. And just to be clear - I am survivor main, I'm not really good and I hate ruin change.
Especially reasoning the nerf is... silly. 'New survivors can't hit skillchecks' tell me something devs (if any devs will actually read this), and don't take it as an 'attack' or something, it's just food for thought. Lets say you're balancing a shooter, would you give new players aim bot, because they have hard time hitting head shots? Or in Mortal Kombat full combos on one button, because it's hard for new players to sequence a full combo? No, as a new player you have to learn mechanics, hitting skill checks IS a mechanic, basically only thing a survivor has to know. Each game has something you have to LEARN and in DBD we have those skill checks. What are you going to do next? Remove killes' weapons, because new survivors have hard time looping? Just think about it, you're going in wrong direction.
I don't even want anything now, its a change that needs to happen, if BHVR just said they were also looking at balancing killers at higher ranks, and/or considering buffs/reworks to the killers hurt most by the Ruin change (Trapper, Clown, Hag, LF etc)
The changes are fine. The only thing that needs to be done along with it in the near future is map reworks. That's the only glaring issue the game has. Sure, other perks should get looked at and nerfed, but it's nothing too insane. People are just exploding about the ruin changes because they don't understand logic.
I think simply allowing me to place it on any dull totem I want, whenever I’m ready to surprise them with the effect, would make it usable for me.
@Elegant I agree with you... and do want to say that we as a community should wait for the opportunity to play the new patch before making out minds up on "if x change is good or bad"
I do want to see maps get looked at more throughly in the future
Making gens more challenging is literally old ruin lol.
Really unless they do something about the inconsistency in time management and map sizes. Then killer will always be weaker. While they want to balance around a 2k that's a gold idea, but very limiting in theory. What they need is to balance killers around a 2.7-3.5 kill ratio. They need to make it so while the killer can possibly obtain a 4k they need to work for it while the regular average would mostly be 2k and 3k. It also makes it so limiting killers wont be nearly as bad.
Map sizes, inf loops are another huge issue as well. Anything a killer has to directly deal with to stop a survivor from doing Objectives like the damaging of gens should not take a bit for the killer, but mere taps from a survivor to counter. That's a huge loss in time for a killer lver the course of a game.
Make ruin a regular perk. That's all I ask