What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?
We're all here arguing about the changes to ruin, but what would really make you be ok with it?
The developers have already stated that an increase of gen time is unlikely, so throw your other ideas in here
Firstly, * I think Ruin should at least increase the amount of skill checks, with the removal of required greats when ruin is up I think it would be fair to increase the amount you recieve, and while checks aren't hard, they still do get missed, and they still make an alert.
Secondly, permanently make generator skill checks smaller, and decrease the size of great skill checks, as the boost from those is pretty significant if you get a lot, and they are no longer required to be large so you can hit them during ruin.
and Finally, a toolbox rework.
- Remove the increased speed of generators
- Make it so it reduces skill checks/increases their size
- Make up for the removal of gen speed, by allowing them to break dull totems quicker, this prevents them from countering thrill/hexes but encourages people to go for totems to remove the chance of NOED, thus wasting time
Addons can be reworked to make skill checks appear slightly/moderately/considerably less. BNP could remove the chance of skill checks up to 50% of the generator, it then expires. Keep all sabo features as they are
Thoughts, ideas? Too little? What are YOUR ideas?
Community Ideas:
- *Obviously a bad idea, but is it a bad idea if the greats don't increase gen progression, then you just have to face more skill checks like you normally would but without the boost.
- Map sizes are being mentioned a lot, I think the majority of us can agree that some maps need tiles removed, trim off the fat, offer more pallets (Unsafe & Safe) but remove dead space. Good examples Sheltered Woods, Rotten Fields, Thompson House, Disturbed Ward
- General Reworks to some "trouble perks" DS often being mentioned (removal of protection after another has been hooked)
- A rework of totem positions (possibly making them appear less obvious, less luminosity, smaller frame. Additionally just making them all dull as an option.
- Possbily? Making ruin a non hex perk (For what it's worth I think having gens just permanently regress because someone isn't on it is far too strong.
- Increased Toolbox Consumption W/ Ruin
Comments
Yes, the regression needs to be increased to make it worthy of a hex and strong for early game, which is when most killers with low mobility need it to gain some momentum.
100/200/300% are the appropriate numbers.
Just give us an overhaul of the game. Rework gens or change the objective entirely. No more skill checks that require you to press 1 button to win. Maybe transport one objective to a place. Repair something else. Create side objectives that give passive buffs to killers and survivors. Survivors can sabotage the killer's passive buffs while trying to buff themselves. It's a 4v1, the killer has to be OP or have a noticable edge.
At the start: killer has an ability, perks etc. But also a monolith on the map that supplies some kind of buff.(this killer buff from the map could be the op factor) The survivors mess with the monolith to take that buff off the killer temporarily, while it gives them 1 of 4 buff choices. This creates a power struggle while the objective battle is happening.
Extra balance details could be worked out later but it's a rough sketch.
Yes but the skill you described is pop sans a count down and hook req.
So you either killed pop or you made this pointless.
X2 regression speed on one gen or a massive cut to one that we can't just tap to stop.
How often I've stopped regression after a kick while being chased is high because it's a tap.
So you'd kick it. That one gen would be regressed x2 speed until I tap it. You then have to waste time kicking it again for me to come back and tap. It's a cycle of useless.
What I seem to find is that people find it difficult to patrol gens on larger maps. Maybe if large maps had an extra gen or two that need to be repaired in order to power the exit gates.
Whatever it does, it needs to make working on gens more difficult. Encouraging survivors to stay on gens because otherwise the gen automatically starts regressing is the opposite of what killers need.
At the beginning of the game, survivors usually spawn on the other side of a map, and low mobility killers have to walk all the way across the map to reach the survivors before they become any sort of a threat and can start pressuring gens. It's during this time that killers can lose a lot of ground, so this is when Ruin needs to be doing something.
With current Ruin, no matter what survivors choose to do, they are slowed down. Even if they can hit every great, the gen speed is still slower than it would be without Ruin. This benefits killers who can't quickly get across a large map. With new Ruin, gens are only affected if the survivors stop working on them, which at the beginning of the game only benefits high mobility killers who don't really need Ruin, anyway.
And no, Corrupt Intervention does not take its place. Corrupt Intervention prevents survivors from working on the farthest gens for a limited amount of time, but it's on a timer, so survivors can just stealth around and wait it out, not forced to do anything. Non-trap killers don't benefit from two extra minutes of not finding survivors. Ruin isn't on a timer, so if survivors want to work on gens unimpeded they at least have to find the totem. With no timer, doing nothing isn't an option.
No matter how much new Ruin increases gen regression, it's not what killers need. I mean, skill checks mostly exist to make sure the survivor's not completely asleep at the wheel while doing gens. They're not really challenging, though. Ruin and maybe to a lesser extent Overcharge are the only things that make working on gens challenging right now. And even if a survivor is a god at hitting great skill checks, Ruin at least keeps them from getting the bonus progression for hitting them, which is something.
Yes you're right I forgot about the power tapping in red ranks.
I think it should not be a hex. To balance this the regression speed could be reduced to 150% or even 100% flat. It's too weak to be a hex now as it is pretty bad on its own, and even though the devs said they think it'll work good in the end-game... hexes don't make it to the end game.
I won't miss Hex Ruin at all because it wasn't fun and likely chases away new players before they get to the fun progression loop of the game; which is unlocking and experimenting/mixing and matching powers and perks.
That said Hex Ruin was also not needed against lower ranks for a number of reasons; among them being a lack of focus on objectives, chases being finished earlier, missed skillchecks and too many relying on stealth gameplay. Note this isn't a slight against stealth gameplay but rather people who are new hiding anytime they hear the terror radius playing despite the fact that its playing near them not because the killer is approaching but because they're chasing someone else nearby. In this situation, all Hex Ruin did was create an overwhelming stomp.
On the other hand higher ranks suffer from people who are very good at managing time and pressure, and both sides are not necessarily even when it comes to applying pressure.
When one person works on a generator providing they hit nothing but good skillchecks they complete it in 80 seconds. When two work on it, 44, which is a 1.8 rate. The rates past that are 'eh' and not worth considering, especially if you factor in Prove Thyself, which then suddenly makes it a 2.0 rate for 40 seconds.
Now what is something veterans are better at? Hitting Greats. This is why people say good players 'power through' ruin. But even in this scenario, Ruin still provides a service; it removes the benefits of landing a Great. Outside of ruin you speed progression up by 2 seconds per Great. On average a skillcheck is about every 8 seconds or so; sometimes more, sometimes less, but that's the general tested average without perks such as Spine Chill muddying the waters.
So doing a generator by yourself is around 8 skillchecks. That's potentially 16 seconds reduced. The 1.8 rate I mentioned earlier? Well, now you have potentially two skilled people getting great checks. So now you have a 40-44 second gen also getting 8 skillchecks, which is even more impactful if they're doing well. Ruin stops these bonuses.
I wouldn't propose that base generator speed needs increased, but Greats are very polarizing when it comes to how lower ranked games take time and red ranks don't. They should probably be sunset'd.
As for earlier claims of not even on when it comes to applying pressure; map design, yeah. There's a reason Nurse (despite her nerfs), Billy and Freddy remain praised. When Red Forest loads up and up to two survivors spawn near each other on a generator there's no 'git gud' about taking any killer without a transportation power and reaching them before the generator pops. There's no 'apply pressure' either. There's "man, I sure hope they 3-gen themselves by being greedy" and that's about it.
This would have been so much better.
I agree with much of what you said.
My one thing is that, I don't know what it's like on PC, but in low ranks on PS4 I rarely see Ruin.
Even according to the devs, while over 80% of red rank killers use Ruin, only 45% of all killers use Ruin. If we assume they really mean "allkillers," then that's still including the 80% in red ranks, which means fewer than 20% of killers use Ruinoutsideof red ranks.I'm sure the lower you go in ranks (i.e. the newer the players), the less you see Ruin due to it being a teachable perk rather than in the general pool.Edit: Ignore crossed out section, faulty math is faulty.
Yeah. Its pretty much why Trapper is the most universally played for much the same reason. "The Default Character". That said even though I'm totally willing to see Greats go I don't think they need to leave entirely for people who prefer that style. I imagine they could, if they wanted to keep the feature attach it to Technician or something similar to where Great checks are added and grant 1/1.5/2 seconds and thus make a Gen Jockey perk that's barely used suddenly have some appeal. Then at least if these gens are done a little faster its an investment like Autodiadect is an investment.
That maths isn't correct.
You can't know how many killers use ruin outside of the red ranks because you don't know how many killers are in the red ranks and how many are not.
For example, if there's 100 killers in the world, maybe only 5 are red ranks, in which case, 4 of those 5 use ruin (80%). Of the remaining 95 non-red rank killers, 40 would use ruin, resulting in 45% total, but still 42% use outside the red ranks.
Considering the ranking system is harder for killers than survivors, you're less likely to have a lot of red rank players, and there'll always be a significant pool of lower rank players that haven't had access to Ruin yet to use it which alters the number. (In that they would use ruin but cannot.)
Fair enough, without knowing the exact numbers it's not possible to extrapolate the percentage outside of red ranks.
Like I said, though, on PS4, I don't see Ruin in the low ranks pretty much at all. It only starts popping up once I get to green ranks as survivor. It would be nice to know the percentages per rank color, because it's probably seen in purple ranks more than in green and in green ranks more than in brown, but -shrugs-
I think that the ruin should remove great skill checks, similar to what it's like to destroy one of the demogorgons portal, and remove the hex part. It doesn't regress gen time, but it doesn't boost it either. Additionally, it can kind of make it harder to see, as the great part of a skill check makes it obvious when to go. You'd just be looking for two little white lines and a sound to indicate there's a check.
If they aren't going to touch gen times, then they need to remove every second chance perk. Short of an extreme total overhaul of the Survivor's core objective, there's nothing they can do now to actually stop the exodus of killers. Having played since Q4 2016, I've seen plenty of generations of killers just stop playing, and it's clear they haven't learned their lesson as a dev team.
Removing perk isn't the way to go, this shouldn't be an "Eye for an eye". Second chance perks can be countered, and are countered very often, they aren't a huge reason as to why killers don't get kills.
They can chnege skillchecks in general...
I made a post on how I would change skillchecks and how they would change on what status effect was applied
Also, to explain upon my previous post a bit. The core issue for killers is time. New ruin deletes every killer without mobility from the game if you're looking to be efficient, meaning you're left with Billy, Spirit, and MAYBE Oni (Maybe because I haven't given him a proper shake yet). The trap killers are forced to play 3 gen basement setup if they want to get anything remotely close to efficient, and everyone else can just get deleted for how often they'll be played.
Now, with the Ruin change itself, most efficient thing to do is just run your swf, if you get found, hightail it to the nearest safe area, chain loop for the match or until the killer loses interest, at which point you go back to your gen and the next person repeats this step. Now, with second chance perks, your 12 downs effectively get quadrupled at the minimum to 48, assuming they're only running one second chance perk and not using any of the other plethoras.
On the killer side, new ruin just encourages me to run Ruin, Thanatophobia, Surveillance, and Haunted ground for optimal pressure.
Removing those second chance perks would incredibly, and I mean incredibly even the playing field, as people like Ardetha have even stopped mid game to count how often they've had to rewin the same match because people get carried by those perks with minimal effort.
(Edited to correct miscalculation)
Ruin was also extremely counterable, by your logic here, it shouldn't have been touched. If you read my expanded explanation, it makes more sense as to why they need to go. Imagine if killers had a perk that required the overall gen completion to be a minimum of 20. It'd be utterly ridiculous. That's the pressure put on killers on the timeline, as now you either play 100% efficient or you quit the game, there's no inbetween.
Except you're asking for perks to be removed, ruin was reworked, not removed.
and you're asking for multiple perks to be removed which is kind of ridiculous.
The only way I would be happy is if they delete the patch and start over on things that might actually make the game somewhat better instead of worse. Fixing the million bugs maybe? Buff unused perks instead of ruining good perks maybe? I don't think any killer here wants 3 gens to pop before the first survivor is hooked and that is what this patch encourages.
That's not entirely true. When survivor perks have been reworked, they still accomplish the same major goals. DS still gives you an extra hit, especially if the killer is targeting you. Balanced Landing is still an immensely powerful chase perk. I even ran Mettle of Man for the Bodyguard achievement since its buff, and had it working most matches.
Ruin's entire point and reason people ran it was to stall the early game which it blatantly no longer does. Ruin was not reworked, it was deleted and replaced with an entirely different perk with completely different uses.
Ruin is effectively removed. You could call it by an entirely different name, and nobody would recognize it until you had told them it was a rework, it'd even be likely mistaken for Dying Light.
The reason I ask for that, is again, due to the entire situation surrounding why Ruin was necessary. If you completely removed Ruin, there'd be no difference in how the game plays out versus how it plays out now (Post Nerf). Both give survivors incentive to remain on their objective, and if you combine that with how much EXTRA time they can buy without any real skill needed, you wildly lopside the game against the power role, which on a design basis SHOULD NOT BE OCCURRING.
I address patches like this from a developer's point of view strictly because that's how you should be viewing major core gameplay changes, not by faction bias but by "How does this fit in with the game's core concepts". In this case, the answer is, it doesn't, and sends the message to an entire portion of the playerbase that their fun doesn't matter.
The game at this point needs a fairly drastic overhaul of the entire survivor side, as they are the Power role, in a design philosophy where that shouldn't be the case.
and to address this we should just entirely remove several perks from the survivor side? This sounds more like "I want revenge and en eye for an eye" rather than a "this helps things"
I've also just read @EZ5k previous post where he thinks second chance perks means you have to down survivors a "minimum" of 48 times if they run second chance perks. This is a little far fetched as I don't think any match in the history of DBD has had 48 downs.
They could just make ruin NOT a hex....Change the regression instead to 75% - 100% - 125%...This would actually make it viable and probably extremely meta
No... needs to be more then 100% to work
It's working off of a normal Gen kick... which is 1/4 of a charge per second
I didn't say that was the solution, only that you were incorrect to say Ruin hasn't really been removed. Its name still exists but the perk is gone.
I don't think removing those perks is a good answer, but some could definitely use adjustments. The change has made it so that the survivors move from an early game where they no longer have anything to worry about except sitting on gens, to a mid game where countless second chances allow them to dictate the pace of the match still. Even the "counters" to most second chance perks like the killer slugging someone for a minute or not tunneling to avoid BT are beneficial to survivors.
They're dropping the ruin changes because it took "months of work to come up with and now it's done" rather than holding it off until the issues with changing it can be addressed at the same time.
So yes, as I discussed here earlier in this thread: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/985151#Comment_985151 I think adjusting some of the survivor perks that dictate the pacing of the game is one of the options the devs can take to make the loss of Ruin not destroy the killer role for many players, but that's not to say delete perks.
Couple things here:
1) Without any second chance perks or saves, you have a minimum down count of 12 if you're playing as the devs intend you to play. If each person gets a second chance perk, that doubles to 24, if that team has 2 second chance perks, it goes to 36, and if they incorporate pallet saves and optimal flashes, it jumps at the least up to 48. While you are correct that most matches don't have that many downs, most matches are also finished within 3 minutes, with an overwhelming decisive victory by either side, usually carried by a specific set of perks, which we call a meta. The reason you balance your game around optimal play, is because as the depip squad from ages ago showed, you can walk in as a survivor without any items, communications, or perks, and still cause a killer to depip by simply knowing how to use pallet saves and time management.
2) If I wanted revenge, I'd immediately demand total gen count be increased rather than asking for a core overhaul as the design philosophy behind the title so desperately needs. If you want to be petty about it here, and I mean truly petty, absolutely zero of these "balance" patches would be pushed out by a professional team, as they lack a basic understanding of why the perk was ran so often in the first place, (it wasn't about score, but about time management as any experienced killer will explain to you).
He's quoting my suggestion of removing them, because much like yourself, it's not hard to foresee that second chance perks quite literally dictate the game. As it stands, you can play perfectly, and then have to rewin that same game multiple times simply because a team came in with a bunch of second chance perks and toolboxes.
TLDR: You want people to be happy with the changes for ruin? You need to understand the fundamental issues that have caused ruin to be such an overused perk. Adding a new objective for survivors to do would help the game immensely. Don't balance the game around low ranks and make sure it is first balanced at the highest levels of play.
They really need to fix gen speeds or add another objective for survivors to complete. I think that adding a fuse box or some sort of electrical panel to wire correctly for the door to work would be far more engaging for the player base. Or you could have a clear objective in the corner saying that 'in order to work on gens you need to find a wrench', or something to that extent. I'd love to see some creativity in adding new tasks that need to be done. It would breathe new life into the game that it desperately needs. It gets boring sitting at a gen holding M1.
The reason ruin has been run in 80% of red ranked games is because gens are completed too quickly. Killers can only chase one survivor at a time. Meanwhile 3 other people can be working on generators, which means that you could potentially get well over 50% of survivor objectives (including opening the door, although that only takes a mere fraction of how long it takes to do a gen) done within the first minute and a half in the game.
Everyone complains that they see the same killers at red ranks. Well guess what? You're only going to see less diversity because a majority of killers that rely on ruin to get early hooks will be unplayable against good survivors. Get ready for non stop billys, spirits, and nurses.
I also think that the balance team NEEDS to do a trickle down balance system. If the game is balanced around the most skilled & invested player base, the game would be balanced for everyone else. DBD should not cater to rank 15s when the game is horribly balanced at the highest level of play. Could you imagine a truly competitive game like LOL or CSGO balanced around the lower to average ranks? It would be a nightmare for anyone who has put in time and effort to get to high ranks just to realize how unbalanced game mechanics are for the pros.
I'll touch on the ranking system briefly, although its somewhat related to the new ruin. It was mentioned in the patch notes that:"Newer players trying to help veterans with generator repairs tend to make the situation worse rather than better." There shouldn't be new players and veterans in the same game if the ranking system is taken seriously. If there was a separate queue for ranked games which were for solo players that would make ranked feel much more like ranked. SWF should have it's own queue that doesn't affect your rank. You should be able to earn BPs in either game mode, its just that pipping wouldn't exist in a more casual match-making. I want my rank to matter in this game, and if it doesn't then ranks shouldn't exist. Period.
I understand wanting to fix ruin, however you need to understand why it's being used so frequently in the first place. Everyone is screaming to increase gen times but I get why they can't/won't do it. It becomes dull for survivors doing the same dull objectives time and time again. Adding new objectives would save this game & be revolutionary.
Also if these changes for ruin go live without acknowledging the problems killers have with objectives and gen completion times I won't be playing this game anymore. I have sunken hundreds of hours and got some of the DLCs. You'll be losing a player for good if you take away the one perk that was barely holding this game together.
How does one second chance perk mean everyone else in the match needs to be downed more?
If I somehow tunnel the entire team and they have DS each of them, I only have to down them all one more time, not 12 more times.
3 (Normal) + DS = (4) x 4 = 16 Your maths is very miscalculated.
Dead Hard, also seen as a "second chance" perk, you don't even down them more times than normal, you just miss a hit, which happens multiple times, so are we counting the killer missing hits as a second chance?
Deliverance, another "second chance" perk, requires you to be hooked, there is no extra downing involved.
Unbreakable, very easy to counter, you hook them, isn't always guaranteed, and if you left them on the floor there is no guarantee they wouldn't have been healed anyway and thats the killers choice to leave.
All of this! Specifically the last part.
I was fine with Ruin the way it was before. It's percentage plus:
T1 - Affects two Survivors
T2 - Affects three Survivors
T3- Affects all survivors
Instead of new Ruin, just revert it back to the way it was before. More balance imo.
What if they removed the hex part, while also removing the automatic regression part. Youd be able to have gens regressing faster, but would have to start the regression yourself. This could allow it to be used with Pop and such, whereas PTB version cannot. I feel like it would have nice synergy with Surge if done like this.
I feel like it becomes even stronger then, 25% instantly off the gen, then it's regressing at that speed, if there's only 2 people in the match I fear this makes it incredibly unwinnable even if only two are dead.
What your describing though is the effect of 2 separate perks. Im just suggesting something that wouldnt have it getting in the way of other perks like the PTB version currently does. A survivor could still come tap the gen to prevent fast regression from ruin with this idea.
As far as feeling punishing when theres only 2 survivors left... I feel like ANYTHING would feel rough when theres only 2 survivors left and still gens to do.
I think Ruin is fine as a Hex if the reward equals the risk of it being cleansed early.
Ruin should by any means NOT encourage survivors to get stick on gens, Its absolutely counterproductive. And as early slowdown perk maybe it should be like:
Just annoying enough to make them search for it, but not as stressfull for new players.
What do you think?
Unfortunately we do have to look at the way it works with every perk, I don't think it would be fair to anyone to just set the perk up, say this is good, but ignore the way it would bolster other already very strong perks.
Absolutely it does feel punishing but if there's only one gen left it's at least plausible to juggle a gen but in conjuction with other perks I feel like removing the hex does make it too strong.
a lot of people have been saying "Too strong to be a normal perk, too weak to be a hex" and I agree.
No more greats, totally agree
Increased penalty. agree to a certain extent, having survivors on multiple gens is often worse than having 2/3 on one because then multiple gens get half way rather than just one being done
and the increased toolbox consumption is a great idea that I've not seen! I've added it to the list.
I still dont see how this would bolster anything really. Its not really offering a synergy like spirit fury and enduring do, but rather just NOT getting in each other's way. A similar comparison would be something like Sprint burst and adrenaline, 2 perks that CAN proc one after the other to result in a huge speed boost gain, but dont hinder each other. You wouldnt be against a killer using OTHER gen affecting perks like Thana and Pop in conjuncture, so why is this combo considered too much?
Pop is used so much because the effect it gives of the 25% is stable; a killer KNOWS kicking a gen is going to be of value, if nothing else than for the 25%. The ruin suggestion would still be under the same counter as kicking a gen normally... The perk would only have any actual benifit if a gen is ALLOWED to regress and a survivor doesnt tap the thing immediately after leaving.
This was another reason why I compared both to SB and adren btw. SB, like Pop gives guaranteed value. You might not get the same value from suggested Ruin or Adrenaline, making it more of a gamble.
Because it generally isn't just one second chance perk, it's typically multiple. DBD breaks down into this at the lobby screen. 16 perks/4 per survivor. 25% of that will be self care typically, a second chance perk that has infinite uses and 0 counterplay other than "lol just tunnel bro". another 25% of that will be a variant of a move speed perk, in the form of dead hard (can quite easily reset an entire loop chain adding another 30-90 seconds, or another 2-3 gens). with the third 25% typically being a teamplay perk, (Borrowed Time, oh look another second chance perk with unlimited uses). with the fourth quarter typically being a fill slot for the players choice. This setup has been hailed for years as "The Holy Trinity" and has yet to be gutted on the level of any killer meta, which has a paltry 4 perks compared to 16, of which 25% can be disabled before you even get to it if you run a hex perk. Meaning that Hex perk better have a damn good payoff to make it worth the risk, which it just lost in this PTB, meaning it's effectively deleted from Killer play along with the killer characters who relied upon it to stand any semblance of a chance against survivors.
Math Breakdown:
4 survivors x 3 downs = 12
BT= +4 (total 16 downs)
Now suppose that each of that last 25% I mentioned as fill is yet another second chance perk, that number goes up to 20.
Add in flashlight saves, which aren't difficult in the slightest, and that's another 4 minimum, putting the total up to 24
Add in pallet saves, and that's potentially 14 extra saves, bumping it up to 38.
So while I miscalculated, the point remains, at absolute optimum efficiency of use, you have a minimum of 20 downs, or 3 extra gens on the survivor side.
TIme Breakdown:
Factoring in that a chase can easily last 90 seconds before your first down, that's 3 gens done, totaling 60% of their objectives completed. Throw in a dead hard in that first chase, and there's quite literally enough time there to go by for a single survivor to efficiently chain loop you for the entirety of a match while people hold M1. The reason Dead Hard get's considered a second chance, is because if both sides are playing optimally, it resets the chain loop. You can of course continue handwaving, but people with enough experience in the game on killers will attest that it's entirely possible to be looped for the entire game.
The common answer to what I just suggested is "just go find another survivor", at which point you've wasted 3 gens, and that person is free to heal up or do a gen while you go find someone else, negating any pressure you're about to apply.
Ruin's role:
Before this absolute smooth brained nerf of Ruin, it allowed you to be able to make *mistakes* in those chases without losing an extreme amount of ground. Where you AND the devs fail to understand the most critical time of the game is. The perk isn't used to get Iri gatekeeper, or to farm up more points, it's exclusively used to get more time and mitigate error, something survivors in the game get to do willy nilly.
Ruin's Role on non meta killers;
Running ruin on Clown, Hag, Trapper, Wraith, Doctor and other less seen killers was a gamble. It either gave you enough time to set up your traps or select your gens for the late game standoff, or it got busted in the first 15 seconds crippling your entire choice of killer putting an insane amount of pressure on you, the supposed power role.
Fundamentally not understanding what I've listed above is what clearly lead to this nerf, and what will ultimately result in this game following the same trend as Evolve did.
Is that simple enough for you?
I'm sorry but this entirely warped, any killer letting 14 pallet saves happen, and 4 flashlight saves happen, while tunneling borrowed time when they're at the hook when they could hit the saviour twice and save time fundamentally belongs in rank 20.
We're (from what I keep hearing from killers) supposed to be balancing around high ranked play, this story you've put together does not sound like high ranked play.
Edit: And in addition, you've set your sights on "Second Chance" perks but the majority of your "second chances" come from pallets & flashlights.
If a killer is constantly being thwarted by pallet and flashlight saves...thats on him.
If you actually read the whole thing, those are POTENTIAL saves, total perk saves put it at 20. Good to see you fail to argue in good faith though. If you actually read the whole thing, you'd actually be able to piece together WHY second chance perks should go with Ruin, and again, I painted it out pretty clearly, it all comes down to time, of which, one perk can 100% win your team the game with a proper button press. But of course, Don't pay attention to the actual message, no wonder the game remains in shambles lmao
It is, which is why they stopped being included in the total minimum saves, yet their presence should still be acknowledged.
I feel like alot of your "math" is hugely exaggerated though. A single dead hard for example is very unlikely to add an extra 90 seconds onto a chase. You also listed off self-care as a 2nd chance perk. Frankly, if all 4 survivors in my lobby ran self-care...oh happy day. Thats alot of time spent self-caring instead of doing anything constructive.
We're talking red ranks here. A majority of which are SWF with high map knowledge, Game sense, and likeliness to run the exact loadouts I mentioned.
You can argue SC isn't a second chance perk, but then you have to ask yourself, is being given another health state a second chance. The answer is usually yes. So even in that first chase, when 3 gens pop, all your team needs is for the other 2 survs, aside from the one you're chasing and the one who's healing, to be on a generator, meaning that you've still applied zero pressure unless you turn it into a game of attrition, at which case, you should be running a 3 gen setup from the start and not just chasing people all game.
Even at red ranks, its very unlikely a chase is going to last 90 seconds total, let alone an ADDITIONAL 90 seconds due to dead hard. I could use Clown or Legion and still be able to get MUCH better times than that. The majority of ppls complaints toward the ruin change is looking at something as simple as map traversal, and how unless your power gives you the ability to travel the map faster... That gen on the other side of the map that you see 2 survivor auras on with BBQ is GOING to pop by the time you walk there. This has nothing to do with chase times.
Actually...as much as I hate encountering it when I'm playing...I do not have a problem with Ruin. It is one of the few perks that gives the killer an advantage when playing against groups who are gaming together. I have escaped plenty of times without ever cleansing it.
You get the point though. The new Ruin is not bad, it just needs to send a focus the maps more than anything now