tjt85
tjt85
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@hermitkermit said:
I’ve been playing a fair bit, but honestly it gets tiring facing the same killers over and over, in my matches it’s been mostly Oni, Hillbilly or Dracula. I think I may just head to regular games for a bit for some variety but I can admit if BP was increased it’d definitely help me play more.
I'm actually getting a bit more variety since they put Wesker in Kill switch jail. It's not the Wesker + 1 experience anymore.
I won't lie, this 2V8 has been bliss so far without him because I can't stand 3 dash Wesker. So I'm getting my 2V8 fill before he returns in a week or so.
As for the incentive, we've just had a blood moon. I think everyone might have enough BP already. Double XP might tempt a few more over to the 2V8 queue but BHVR probably won't do anything like that ever again now that we have play while you wait.
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I mostly agree with your "not possible" list, due to the technical challenges they'd have to overcome. Not unless they can find a way to make their interactables play nice with chest/tile spawns, anyway. But I think they will try with Alien, especially if we get another Disney/Fox licensed Killer. I also think Pig would be horrible to go against with a partner to harass Survivors off her Jigsaw Boxes (that play style is already pretty annoying when it's just her alone). Dredge might not be welcomed by 2V8 Survivors with his nightfall mechanic making maps difficult to navigate.
I still think they could've made Legion work if they'd tried a little harder and I will die on that hill but whatever, I've said my piece at this point (I honestly think they were fine as they were).
Ghoul, Doctor, Clown, Trickster, Skull Merchant, Knight, Plague and Singu have way too many haters and would be disqualified on that basis. Pinhead would join this list if BHVR still had the Hellrasier license.
Hag, Artist, Krasue, Twins and Houndmaster have pick rates that are far too low to consider.
That leaves Bubba, Demo and Unknown. I think all of these Killers would be easy enough to adapt and seem to be reasonably popular with both sides.
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it's a welcome feature but it would be nice if we could choose what Survivor queue we want to join for play while we wait.
I'd personally like to be able to queue for 2V8 Survivor while waiting in the 1V4 Killer queue. And I'm sure there will be others out there that would like to be able to do the opposite.
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BHVR have admitted they can't even put most of the game's Killers into 2V8. It will remain popular so long as it's a limited time mode but let's be realistic about its future, 2V8 has already come to the end of the road. So long as new players are still joining the game it will have a player base, but to everyone else it will begin to feel stale before too long. Killer is more popular because it's a novel experience to team up with another Killer and I think that's probably the main appeal for most who enjoy it.
I don't even think it's true to say it lacks the sweat of 1V4. After all, you double the top tier Killers and you double the sweat (especially if they're both competent with their Killer and/or a KWF on comms). I've had some 2V8 trials be the biggest one-sided Survivor/Killer stomps of my DBD career.
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What I want to know is - Can you queue for 1V4 Killer but play 2V8 Survivor while you wait? Or do I have to queue for 1V4 Survivor? I haven't been able to test this myself since I spent all of last night downloading the update. And if not, are there any plans to add this as a choice?
I have zero interest in regular 1V4 Survivor anymore but I would probably play some 2V8 while I wait to play Killer if I had the chance to queue for it.
Tbh, I normally wouldn't play 1V4 at all during 2V8 but with my main Killer now removed from the mode, I don't have a choice if I still want to play Killer.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075435#Comment_4075435
Well, like I said, you can't.
It's impossible to nerf the things that actually set SWF apart from solo queue. This is a different argument to it being a bad idea to nerf SWF in other ways, to be clear, I'm saying that if we want to change the relative strengths of the two directly only one of the two approaches is literally possible.
You can't nerf SWF sharing information on voice call, it's not something BHVR have control over. You can't nerf their capacity to coordinate with those voice calls, either, for the same reason. Ditto the knowledge of who you're playing with and how they can be expected to act, it just isn't a variable BHVR can affect.
Those things are also far and away the most potent strengths of SWF, those things ensure SWF will basically always have an advantage over solo queue even if other parts of SWF are targeted.
You can, though, address the fact that solo queue often ends up at an active detriment. Raising up the baseline for solo queue allows things like perk changes and killer tweaks to land better in a way that's actually achievable.
I mean, we've had lots of recent perks and changes that have buffed SWF in ways that SoloQ connot benefit from. The chances of seeing Shoulder The Burden in your SoloQ matches are slim to none but I bet there are plenty of SWFs running this perk. The way they've nerfed Fast Track and changed Wake Up make those perks inviting only to SWFs as well. Sometimes they'll buff perks in ways to make SWF even more difficult to deal with (e.g. 150% speed WGLF). Meanwhile, we have Apocalyptic Ingenuity that can only ever be a trash tier perk because a full SWF / trio would be an absolute menace with it if it was ever to be made decent.
My idea to nerf SWF would essentially be to make them play Chaos Shuffle with a random perk loadout equal to their party number (e.g. Duos get 2 free perk slots and two random, trios get 1 free perk slot and 3 random and a full 4 person SWF has to play with a full Chaos Shuffle loadout). This is the only way to mitigate the benefits of the extra co-ordination and free info without the use of perks that they can get from using something outside of the game for a competitive advantage. In most other games we would call this cheating but DBD is apparently held to a different standard.
I know this idea is a nonstarter because the most vocal players would riot and kick up a stink on reddit/twitter/forums, even though limiting the strength of SWF would be healthy for the player base as a whole. They wouldn't need to try to balance DBD for two groups that are playing totally different games. But BHVR will never try anything controversial ever again to improve the health of the game after the failed anti slugging / anti tunnelling PTB (which I guess is fair enough, since their livelihoods on the line if it pushes players away).
Anyway, they should either give Solos the real tools to be as close to a SWF as possible or find a way to nerf SWF. Add things like full voice chat (and chat wheels for basic communication between players using different languages) and let a party that plays well together keep playing to encourage the formation of SWFs. But this half way approach is not the way.
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He may not be for everyone but I like playing as Trapper. Well… Most of the time, anyway. If you face a SWF that dedicates a team member to follow you around to point out / trigger all your traps, it can be a miserable experience. But he can still do well against regular SoloQ.
I even spent almost an entire year saving up shards to buy the Naughty Bear cosmetic. Some people don't care how strong a Killer is if they still find them fun to play as.
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@MDRSan said:
I still don't understand why people think it's some big deal to have the survivors know who the killer is at the start of a match. If I have absolutely no idea what the killer is at the start of a match (no terror radius, no specific sound indication, no meters attached to portraits, no in game props, etc.) then I assume they're stealth until I see otherwise anyway.
Like what specific behavior do people think I'm going to engage in immediately on match start that changes a match's outcome if I know which killer it is? I'm still looking around and being wary. I'm still not wandering around out in the open. What exactly do you think I'm going to do differently?
What about a Trapper with Trapper sack being revealed to the other players before they can set up by getting into an early chase? Now you know to stay away from basement and watch your feet.
Or say you get a Billy with stealth perks and the Filthy Slippers add-on. Before the update, you wouldn't know a Billy was out there. But now their first chase will tell you to go find shack or a set up with some windows to loop around.
Survivors that know to split up will be able to deny early pressure to pretty much every Legion, even before they've heard their terror radius music playing. Just a few examples but I'm sure there are more. Anything that relies on an element of surprise is dead in the water after this update. Even between stealth Killers like Wraith, Ghostie or Myers, there will be differences between how players will behave with the new information.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075344#Comment_4075344
The divide between solo queue and SWF makes the game very difficult to balance, and that affects killer balance too- tune something for SWF and that something destroys solo queue, but tune it for solo queue and you've got an uphill battle against SWF.
There are three major benefits to SWF that solo queue currently do not have. SWF have a better baseline of information gain, better ability to coordinate important actions, and you also know who your teammates are so you can reliably assume parts of their gameplay.
Now, if we want to bridge the gap between solo queue and SWF - which benefits everyone, remember - then certain things are just off the table. You obviously can't restrict a SWF when it comes to the information they can share or who they're allowed to queue with, that's a physical impossibility, so instead solo queue needs to be improved proportionally.
Since you can't make solo queue players be familiar with their random teammates (outside of adding a party finder, which I do support but at that point isn't solo queue anymore) and ways of adding coordination to solo queue need to be done very carefully to avoid harming the game's tone, that means solo queue needs a whole bunch of information-gain buffs.
You are right, it is difficult to balance the game for both groups of players. But my preference is to nerf SWF, not to boost SoloQ up. Mostly because it's a half measure and there's nothing BHVR can really do to fully bring Solo up to par with a SWF. But also because I worry about the unintended consequences that might arise.
Like how the extra 5 seconds of BT and haste off hook did nothing to help the players that really needed it (the easily tunnelled weak links), but instead gifted SWFs an easier end game out, so long as they're never hooked too far away from an open gate. The will undoubtedly make the game a little bit tougher for Killers, but it's the duos and a trios that will really benefit and become stronger from this. It's not going to help true SoloQ players all that much if the game is to be balanced around SWF, because the gap will always be too great to bridge between SWF and Solo.
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@Madjura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075344#Comment_4075344
Because SWF with voice chat is the intended power level for Survivor.
There will always be some discrepancy between solo and SWF but the goal is to close the gap by pushing solos upwards as opposed to nerfing SWF.
I just don't agree with that. I think most of my wins playing as Killer probably come (at least in part) from a certain degree of Solo/DuoQ inefficiency. I know a lot of the player base complains about that, but I genuinely believe the game is balanced around Survivors not all being on the same page. It's necessary for Survivors to have gaps in their knowledge for a lot of Killer powers and perks to function.
I don't think the community really realises how much in the game would need to be changed, reworked or buffed on the Killer side if a SWF on comms became the standard for balance. Bottom tier Killers like Legion, Trapper and Ghostie would become totally unplayable. And DBD would become an almost completely different game by the time BHVR were finished re-balancing everything.
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I'm sorry, but I still don't understand why we're now balancing the game around the info that SWFs can get from voice chat (in other words, by using a tool to gain an unfair advantage that doesn't exist within the game).
I still think it will be a huge mistake to begin balancing DBD around the strength of SWF, but if the game is really going to go in this direction, you may as well just bite the bullet and add voice chat (then buff/rework killers and perks accordingly).
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@Mortimer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075070#Comment_4075070
They said he would be back with the next update, so the 28th is the day
I know, but we all know BHVR can take their sweet time to fix bugs sometimes…
I've got all my fingers and toes crossed, anyway 🤞
Happy mending eve, everyone. Just one more sleep until they're back (hopefully).
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More importantly, are Legion still gonna be dead in a ditch come April 28th?
It's been so long that I'm even looking forward to getting dunked on repeatedly in 1V4 by Survivors way above my pay grade. Seriously, this a mode that I basically never play when 2V8 is live, that's how much I'm missing them.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074778#Comment_4074778
The other crucial difference between DBD and other games like SSB is its player count: when you split the player base it basically doesn't have enough to make dedicated modes possible. You see it whenever there's an event and the regular queue becomes dead because all the casual players want to do Blood Rush or 2v8 or whatever. Having a permanent divide between Casual and Competitive modes (without even getting into the issues of how that divide would be defined or enforced) would make queue times really bad, which is not something a lot of people would be okay with, and you'd end up with everyone back in the same queue anyway.
You are right to say that DBD doesn't currently have the player count to justify more than 1 permanent game mode right now. But I also think the game is in a purgatory of BHVR's own making which is preventing the player base from ever growing. The playstyles and culture that BHVR have encouraged (or left to grow more or less totally unchecked) is so off-putting to newcomers that most players who pick up the game around a new chapter release are gone within a month of discovering DBD. Many who have introduced the game to their friends have struggled to keep them playing because eliminating the weak link is such a common strategy that newbies spend more time spectating than they do playing. That's to say nothing of jaded veteran players like myself who just can't bare to deal with all the typical frustrations for any longer.
That said, we do know for a fact that the time limited modes bring a lot of lapsed players back to the game, at least for a time anyway. Some of that is FOMO and novelty, but I also think it suggests evidence of deep, long standing problems with the core design of 1V4 for a lot of players who would otherwise enjoy the game.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
BHVR doesn't really get to make the decision of whether or not DBD is casual or competitive because it will always be both. The Super Smash Brothers series has one of the largest competitive scenes in videogaming and it was 'meant' to be a goofy party game where Mario and Link get to smack each other with hammers.
The real question is 'how interested is BHVR in making DBD an enjoyable and rewarding investment for long-term players as well as new ones?' because not only are there some serious rocks in the road to getting good at this game in the first place, there's also a problem with burnout and frustration at the higher end of play, both because balancing decisions are made based on Excel spreadsheets and the need to get the next chapter out the door faster.
Smash Bros had the For Glory mode back when I played it (1V1, no items, only one simple arena) and these days apparently has something called Elite Smash, which is a mode for competitive online players that've passed a certain threshold (but I don't play anymore, so I don't know what that entails).
Anyway, if Nintendo can add competitive or semi-competitive modes to their silly party brawler, what's stopping BHVR from developing a dedicated mode for the more serious DBD players to play in? I'm tired of there just being one giant pool of players, with the lobbies picked out of the Entity's hat at random.
Edit: Or rather I should say, BHVR should develop a dedicated casual mode. Regular 1V4 is already an unsalvageable sweaty mess imo, one that I'm content to leave to the competitive players. I only ever play it when I have no other alternatives.
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To be honest, I don't blame BHVR for not wanting to make any concrete updates or promises these days. We had the tunnelling/slugging mitigations that never made it past the PTB and those fairly poorly received P100 "rewards".
If I were BHVR, I'd probably quietly work away on this stuff in the background and then drop it whenever it's ready as an unexpected surprise for the player base. I'm sure the underwhelming P100 badges would have been a lot more enthusiastically received if they hadn't been teased in advance. But as it happened, it raised the anticipation and a lot of players were disappointed (and maybe even a little bit insulted) by the bare minimum of effort that BHVR put into them.
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Probably Wesker's ridiculous running animation. It just looks so silly to me, though I will admit it's kinda funny when you realise he's only moving at the same speed as a teenager casually walking towards you with a knife. On the subject of Legion, I think Hunk's animation and the animation of the female members of the gang look a little bit silly as well (that said, I'm still a Susie main for life. I could never hate these guys).
The only Survivor that really gets under my skin is Feng for her injured moaning. I do like a lot of her skins but I feel forced to run Iron Will if I play as her to preserve my sanity. Since I crutch pretty hard on exhaustion perks, that's pretty much as good as painting a big "kill me first" target on my back.
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It's not always the case that changes are made to push the game in a casual or competitive direction. More often than not, BHVR seem to respond to whoever shouts the loudest. I don't think The Legion would have been removed from the most casual game mode we have if that hadn't been the case (they are a very popular choice for casual Killer players). They definitely weren't removed for balance reasons or for being "too strong", that's for certain.
But I do personally think overall that 1V4 has been leaning more towards the comp side of DBD in recent years. It feels to me like most modern design Killers have been power crept to combat what the strongest SWFs can bring to the table. Given that average SoloQ often struggles against Trapper, the lethality and complexity of the newer Killers has meant that more of the Survivor player base is leaning heavily into gen rush builds. With that said, my Killer games don't feel much different to how they've always felt. My Survivor games are a different matter though, with more tunnelling, camping and slugging in recent times than I ever experienced when I started playing about 3 years ago. The way players play the game has changed and is more competitive these days. BHVR's efforts to close the gap between Solo and SWF is more evidence that DBD is moving in a competitive direction as well. In any case, SoloQ and the weaker Killers will still be left behind because the arms race between the strongest things in the game is not really being reigned in.
I think BHVR would have to create a dedicated casual mode if they decided to split the queues to address the frustrations between their casual and comp player base. A good start would be to combine the tunnelling / slugging mitigations from the rejected PTB with Chaos Shuffle. Obviously those systems needed more adjustments, but I think a game mode like that would cut down on most of the complaints casual players have with regular DBD.
Problem is, if the casuals flock to a new mode and it becomes a success, the biggest content creators (who tend to play more competitively) will start complaining about their sweatier 1V4 matches and longer queue times, since they won't have so many casuals to stomp. This happens every time 2V8 is live. That would probably be bad for the promotion of the game, so I doubt BHVR would want any alternative mode to eclipse the popularity of regular 1V4. As much as people seem to love 2V8, it's not a game mode that can carry the future of DBD with all of its strict limitations.
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I really dislike the way the down vote button works. BHVR can keep it for the "data" for all I care, but it shouldn't be coded to no longer bump up topics that share unpopular or controversial opinions once they've been ratioed. All this feature does is stifle debate, which is not ideal for what is supposed to be a discussion forum. I've even been down voted for sharing my P100 Legion achievement because that's genuinely all it takes to get down voted around here. If you go into bat for an unpopular Killer you are guaranteed to get down votes.
Not that any of this matters because the forums are a ghost town, anyway. I don't know what insights BHVR can really gather from the same 30 or so regular visitors. Most of the player base seem to prefer reddit where the moderation is a lot more relaxed, even though the down votes straight up hide posts over there (which is also a terrible thing).
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Y'know I had the same thought myself, that maybe all Killers with strong dash attacks or high mobility powers should be 110. Nurse is slower than Survivor, Spirit, Henry and Chucky are already 110. I've heard some people say Billy is a difficult Killer to play but he's the easiest strong Killer, imo. It's true that curving has a high skill ceiling, but he's not really difficult to back rev or snipe with and his mobility is still very good on most maps. I've definitely found myself using his basic attack more often when I've not been able to get downs with the saw (aka the "Milly" play style). The same argument against Blight being able to use his power to catch up and then use a basic attack as being unfair kinda applies to Billy as well. I don't think Ghoul should be 110 though, because they can't directly use their power to get downs like the others. But I think Dracula and Krasue could be made 110 since they both have ranged attacks and/or aggressive mobility and dash powers. But I guess it all depends on who you want to balance the game for - high level SWFs and Solos or the more casual Survivor players. If the former, then they are probably fine as they are.
That said, I'm not 100% on board with this Blight change, anyway. I've only ever played him when he was on a free trial and he's a very difficult Killer to learn (I couldn't play him too much because he gives me motion sickness). I worry that this will do more harm to casual players who just enjoy playing Blight, but it won't touch his popularity or reputation within the high MMR lobbies because the nerfs won't do all that much to really stop a good Blight. Why are we making a difficult Killer even more difficult to play to the point that less skilled players won't even want to touch them (not to mention nerfing one of the few Killers that can compete at the high level)? Seems like kinda a bad move to me.
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I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I think I've disliked pretty much every concept I've read for a Legion rework and this one is no exception. All I want out of Legion is the ability to run fast, vault things and stab people.
I believe they had the idea to let them hide in lockers for surprise attacks (which would have been cool), but the idea got reused to design the Dredge instead. Personally, I'd like for them to have a few more Survivor like abilities like that. But to be honest, at this point I just want BHVR to fix my favourite Killer and then completely forget they exist for a bit.
Besides, I'd rather the disguise concept be reserved for a John Carpenter's The Thing chapter. Even then, it still wouldn't work very well because unfortunately SWFs exist and lots of them use voice chat software and DBD's design is poorly balanced for that kind of advantage.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
We need more killers in order for 2v8 to go permanent, there’s too few killers so the game struggles to match the overwhelming majority of wesker/billy/oni players with another different killer teammate, gets even worse if you factor in solo vs duo queue killers.
Edit: but considering bhvr’s 2v8 killer criteria it looks like it’s just going to continue get even staler with longer queues. For this next 2v8 it might be the least motivated I’ve been to try it, with no changes, survivors being at their strongest with 20 sec sprint burst and tonics, both me and my duo are not even sure we’ll log on for this one. Plus the killers we like/main are either buns in 2v8 or simply won’t see the light of day as we like niche killers.
I think we're basically looking at the final iteration of 2V8 already. They will probably try to add a few more licensed Killers / skins to flog to players for future themed 2V8s, but this is kinda it for Killer variation. Most remaining workable Killers are either hated or in licensing purgatory, with the rest likely being too difficult to implement. I think Demo, Unknown, Bubba and maybe Spring Trap are the only ones left BHVR could add that meets their criteria. I don't think it's totally out of the question to see more Killers be removed in the future, either.
I personally don't think it will ever have enough variety now to justify making it permanent (and obliterating the normal queue as a result).
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Honestly, I sincerely believe that unless you're in a super SWF or a highly skilled looper, the escaping part of the Survivor role is not for you anymore. You are just there as meat for the grinder to make up the numbers. So I just slap on some silly perks and hope I get some quests done before I go back to playing Killer (the only solo mode I find worth queuing for these days).
My current escape rate is sitting at around 20%. I've only been playing in the event however, which if the Killer is actually trying is pretty Killer sided this time around, imo.
Granted, most of the Killer buffs next patch (except for the Wesker ones) are not going to make a huge difference. But the direction of travel is to balance the game for SWFs and for the more recent power crept top tier Killers. I think this is why there's an effort to turn SoloQ into a watered down pseudo SWF with the new perk and Killer info in this PTB. It won't work because it ignores the important reasons why playing in a SWF is so strong but whatever, seems like that's what they're aiming for to me.
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I can't find a date for when the current PTB goes live. Usually that's three weeks after, right? So April 28th when the next 2V8 is out?
If so, that's a looong time to be out of the game. I'm sure lots of people will be jumping for joy over this (fair enough, I guess. When Knight got Kill switched for an age, those were the good old days to me).
Nevermind, I will fill the time playing more Trickster and Ghoul games :)
Edit: It just occurred to me that it's gonna be nearly 2 whole months before I can play a normal game of Legion again. Not unless I want to ruin my day playing Legion against the sweats in the normal queue during 2V8, anway. These are dark days indeed.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070294#Comment_4070294
Yeah, I can't say I'm a fan of the insta-down Killers being in 2v8, and we currently have three of them (Billy, Oni, and Ghostie). But what can we do…?
But that's the thing isn't it? We all have things about 2V8 that we don't like. Two of my least favourite Killers in the entire game are in 2V8 and I have a very high chance of seeing them at least every other trial. But I still played anyway because that's the price of admission to playing the video game. I'd put up with the things I don't like in 2V8 because I still got to enjoy the things that I did like (or at least I did before this happened).
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@100PercentBPMain said:
Wraith meets my criteria for removal bhvr pls
Understandable. He can zip around the map spreading injuries almost as quickly as Legion. But Wraith doesn't deep wound and make Survivors hold down a button for 10 seconds to mend, so I guess he passes the vibe check.
I honestly don't think I'll ever understand the common complaint about mending. 10 seconds feels like nothing to me.
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I wonder is this change is also to do with the upcoming MMR changes. As we all know, you can have fast match making or you can have more accurate match making but you can't really have both.
So perhaps this is a system that will allow high skilled Killers to queue up and play Survivor while the MMR system is busy searching for an appropriate opponent for them to play. Just a thought, but I think this could be a possibility as well.
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I usually like a Killer that puts intractable stuff on the map but I pretty much always ignore Spring Trap's doors. Feels like too much of a risk to touch them.
I think the only time I've ever used one was against a friendly Spring Trap who was looking to farm.
@100PercentBPMain said:
you guys just don't play enough fnaf
True. I know so little about FNAF I assumed the bear was the main bad guy before the DBD chapter came out.
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@nerf_them_not_me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466046/2v8-killer-criteria
You talk about "respect" but you don't seem to have any respect for the opinions of the vast majority of the community who wanted Legion removed from 2v8 mode. Nothing that BHVR does is going to make 100% of players happy, but when they can do something that makes let's say 75% of the player base happy (which is my rough guess for the % of players who are glad that Legion is gone from 2v8), that's a big win and you can't blame BHVR for making a change that a vast majority are asking for. There are always going to be people in the minority who are upset about any change, not matter how popular, and unfortunately you are in the minority for this one. If you want to be mad at everyone in the community about it, that's up to you, but I think you should try to look at this from the perspective of the majority of players who were asking for this.
The players that answer surveys and discuss the game on reddit/twitter/forums are not "the vast majority". The vast majority of players are just playing the game and don't take part in these discussions. I'd be willing to bet that most DBD players don't actually care if Legion is in 2V8 or not (and some probably aren't even aware that they're never coming back).
It sounds to me like you think BHVR should prioritise what Survivors want for 2V8 over what Killers want because they are the majority. Fine, that's your opinion. But the game needs players willing to play Killer, too. So they kinda do have to think about what Killers want from 2V8 as well, otherwise there will be no Killers willing to queue up. With that said, it's obvious more players seem to want to play Killer because it's a unique experience. It's the main appeal of the mode for most of the players and now those players have one less Killer to choose from. Don't forget, Killer players also bolster the 2V8 Survivor lobbies because most of them will be playing Survivor while they wait. So in my case at least, I'll be missing from any future 2V8 survivor queues.
Yes, BHVR should listen to feedback but I also think the loudest voices aren't always the right ones to be listening to. Majority rule is also not a good way to design a video game.
Anyway, the point of my original post was to point out that other Killers should be removed from 2V8 because they don't meet the standards set by BHVR for the mode. It's not to discuss whether or not Legion should or shouldn't have been removed, because I've had those discussions before many times.
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@QwQw said:
Yeah, personally I'm really disappointed that Legion was just straight up removed. It was my hope that 2v8 would eventually become permanent and that every killer (besides maybe some licensed ones who were being difficult) would be added.
I feel like 2v8 has become stagnant. The devs know that most of the community still loves it, so they no longer really try to significantly shake things up. Hearing now from Behavior themselves that they won't bother integrating every original character because they don't feel like it leaves a very poor taste in my mouth, especially since I tend to enjoy the less popular killers.
I used to adore 2v8, but nowadays my enthusiasm for it is at an all-time low. The first iteration of it is somehow still the best version.
Yeah, it was my expectation that if BHVR could find a way, then they would bring that Killer into 2V8. It's fun for what it is and I'm sure it will remain popular, but I'm also starting to think it would have been better left in its first iteration and brought back only once a year. Then BHVR could have put those resources into developing more unique game modes for us to play. You are right, it has stagnated. It's kinda sad that we're looking at the final version of 2V8 already, with all the remaining Killers deemed either too unpopular with Survivors or too difficult for BHVR to implement. I think they will try to shoehorn a few more licensed Killers into the mode for the money, but I don't think we'll see Alien or Stranger Things until there is another Disney / Netflix IP in the game. It will never reach its full potential now.
@CrypticGirl said:
I hear Oni is getting nerfed for this upcoming iteration of 2v8. (Idk how, as I didn't get to watch the dev stream, but I heard friends mentioning it…)
Don't forget that Legion got some nerfs before being kill switched. The trouble with Oni is that his power encourages slugging to get the most value from a demon dash and we know this play style isn't enjoyable for a lot of Survivors. You can pick yourself up with your Survivor ability in this mode, so it's arguably not so bad but then there's also another Killer than can come along to pick up his slugs, so I'm not sure that makes much difference. He's also pretty much always in power, which is problematic. But then if you make it so that Oni's power takes longer to activate, nobody will want to play him because he'd be like playing a no traps trapper. It's difficult to get that balance right. If he continues to be complained about after the nerfs then he will have to be removed. All that said, it's an OTT party mode, nobody should care about any of this. Let the Oni have his fun.
@HoodedWildKard said:
I'm ambivalent about legion being removed from 2v8. Maybe because I don't have enough info to go on. I only played the last 2v8 evemt (had a couple years break from dbd after chucky released) so i haven't seen legion in 2v8.
But if you asked me which killer I think would horribly unbalance 2v8, legion would be the first one that comes to mind. Superspeed, and getting killer instinct on every survivor in range during feral frenzy means they could keep practically every survivor injured and under pressure. Combo that with a hard to avoid killer with traversal like nurse, blight, dracula, chucky maybe even wraith etc and the game mode starts to look incredibly unfun for survivors. Makes for easy quick downs with huntress, one drops with stealth ghostie.
But on the other hand 2v8 can feel very survivor sided sometimes if killers can't secure quick downs. If you have maybe 4 or 5 good chase runners and everyone is genrushing when they're outside of chase then itt is a real struggle as killer. maybe something like legion is called for to redress the balance.
I was surprised to see them add Legion so early in development tbh, because I knew they would be complained about (I mean, I do know why they added him with the Resident Evil 2V8 - it was a cynical cash grab to sell more Hunk skins). That said, it also surprised me to see Blight and Spirit added in the second iteration, because those characters are not exactly universally loved by Survivors either.
I did think that with the Legion having made into 2V8 they wouldn't ever be removed but here we are. I just wish I'd queued up for a lot more Legion matches instead of the hundreds of Survivor matches I played instead (I played only 17 Legion games in all).
@crogers271 said:
I'll go through the list you mentioned
Nurse: I've never found her an issue in 2v8, the map sizes really balance her out better. I almost never see her despite playing a lot of 2v8.
Blight: Same issue in 2v8 as 1v4, though not as extreme. Blight is fun, he's just too strong. I disagree that people don't like playing Blight, its more circumstantial than that.
Spirit: Well I hate going against spirit in 1v4 and 2v8, but not sure of the overall view.
Oni: The issue with Oni is just that his power needs more adjustment for 2v8 so its not constant in use.
So Blight - Oni, just need some tweaks. Nurse I guess I'd need more info. Spirit I have a personal dislike of so not a fair judge.
I don't see many Nurses in 2V8 either but when I do see one, they are usually pretty good with the character. I doubt a decent Nurse is much fun for the Survivors who struggled against Legion, so she should probably be removed (ditto for Blight). Her low pick rate because of her difficulty disqualifies her as well.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069895#Comment_4069895
I think they mean to say they will adjust it so that its not immediately giving away stealth killers. As for its purpose is supposedly for newer players who havent seen the killer before, to mouse over the power and try to understand how it works. Otherwise its stuff that everyone else alredy knows at the first power interaction. As this part of the update was being shown during the segment about improving the new player experience.
Makes a little more sense for the new player experience. But still, how many new players are going to want to read a long explanation of a Killer's powers in the middle of a trial? I'd be willing to bet not many. Are they meant to hop in a locker for the 2 minutes it'll probably take them to read about some of the more complex Killer powers in the game?
I'm all for improving things for newbies, but surely there is a better way than throwing out a convention that's been in the game for so long. That little bit of suspense from not knowing who the Killer is is a part of the fun of DBD and another horror aspect of the game that will fall by the wayside.
I'm still against this change for other reasons, anyway. I personally don't think the game should be balanced around SWFs or around trying to boost SoloQ up to a pseudo-SWF level. It ruins the balance and surprise in a game that was never meant to accommodate knowing that much about your opponent or your teammates. Most of the more recent Killers have been engineered to compete with high level SWFs and it's also the reason why so many Survivors find them miserable to go up against.
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I played a game today as a locker Dweet where this feature might have been pretty helpful (but also, imo, why it won't be as helpful as people think).
This TTV and their friends (I'm assuming they were a 3 man) didn't understand why I quickly jumped into a locker near a gen. As it happens, I was recharging my med-kit to finish off my heal and maybe also make a head-on play if the Gabe happened to lead the Oni past my locker (he didn't).
And if I did lead the Oni to the gen (not sure I did), it was because I was also trying to get the gen refueled like the rest of the team. I think the Oni was patrolling and he found us all but whatever, everyone else was also there. I had no hooks because the Oni couldn't catch me and he didn't want to chase.
It's 50/50 whether or not I play like I just installed the game, but this time I actually played quite well. Kept myself healthy and delayed getting hit by looping OK. Did all the basic stuff you should do against an Oni. Evidently I did something useful because I'm top of the leader board.
Anyway, it's totally understandable for them not to understand my actions in the Trial. But what's their excuse in the end game chat? They can see my perks. They left before I could tell them about Quick & Quiet, but how can it be that none of these reasonably experienced Survivors knew what this perk does? This isn't an obscure perk, it's a perk from a free character that everyone owns and has been in the game for 10 years. It might have helped for them to see my build in Trial and to understand better. But then again, I kinda doubt it.
I suppose a SWF might look to see what the "random" has in their build and play around that, but it's just as likely it will lead to players getting bullied or sandbagged by groups for not using perks that are in the meta. I think knowing your team's perks should be on a need to know basis. Maybe some locker perks are in the need to know category, I dunno. My view is that there are more potential downsides to sharing this info indiscriminately than there are benefits.
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I gather the focus will be on making it so that winning and losing are not as binary as they currently are. Probably by bringing back elements of the emblem system to influence how the match making is calculated again. As well as adding rewards for Survivors who run the Killer all game but end up dying anyway. But I imagine kills and escapes will still be the biggest factor used to determine match making ranking because there still isn't really a better way to judge "ability" in this game. Let's say a Killer plays for hooks instead of kills, it wouldn't feel like a "reward" for them to be given much stronger opponents if they do well, because it would lead to sweatier games where they would only manage 1 or 2 hooks. It would be hard to balance a system that didn't weigh kills/escapes heavily.
I've long felt that they've always tried to keep the more competitive and casual players equally happy. I'm wouldn't say they've always been successful in that, sometimes it isn't possible and they land on a position that alienates one side or the other (and sometimes both sides). This is just BHVR making a definitive statement to that effect. I doubt it means there's a change in how they're approaching the game.
I think the emphasis on there being no "wrong" way to play and pushing for a play how you like ethos is possibly hinting at a MMR system that will match up like minded players with other like minded players. E.g. Sweats Vs sweats, Meme build enjoyers with other meme build enjoyers, etc. I don't know how that might be achieved, but I'm interested to see what they're cooking up. Then again, they've promised much the past that they've never been able to deliver, so I won't believe it until I see it.
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I sure hope not. I would probably quit the game for good if they made 2V8 a permanent mode.
Now that Legion has been permanently removed, the mode holds no interest for me any longer. It's fun for what it is, but it's just not compelling enough for me to subject myself to a bunch of buffed up Killers that I hate when I don't have a Killer of my own to queue up to play anymore. And whenever 2V8 is live, 1V4 Killer becomes a sweaty nightmare on my server because all my fellow casuals are usually in 2V8.
So yeah, there would be nothing left for me to enjoy in DBD if this came to be.
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If we're talking about my personal preferences, I'd see Spirit, Oni and Wesker binned from the mode. There's absolutely nothing fun about facing any of these Killers in 2V8. Maybe Huntress as well if I'm feeling grumpy, because during the first iteration of 2V8 she was in every single game and I got so sick of seeing her.
That said, I don't think anything should be removed from 2V8. It's still utterly ridiculous to me that the non stop complaining about Legion lead to their eventual removal. I lost a lot of my respect for the player base and BHVR as a result of that decision, tbh.
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@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069349#Comment_4069349
My understanding is you don't see the perks pre-game, just during it.
So long as it's not going to be in the lobby, I suppose that's not so bad. Even so, I fully expect players to continue to cross the map to pick me up while I'm Plot Twisting (as well as inadvertently leading the Killer to me at the same time).
I guess it could be somewhat beneficial to experienced players who know what all the perks do, but I can imagine some newer players not wanting to spend their time diving into a menu to see what their teammate's perks do. In practice, I think it might be less useful than a lot of people think it will be (mostly because the game already tells Survivors about certain perks being in play on a need to know basis). Being able to check if anyone has unbreakable before hitting the abandon button is a positive thing, though.
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RIP to all those future Davids out there trying to get their adept done.
There are better ways imo to let other Survivors know what perks you've got in play. We already have a little icon pop up in the corner to inform your team about Vigil, We'll Make It etc being in effect. All BHVR have to do is expand the number of perks that the current system applies to. For example, a Deliverance icon could pop up when in proximity to a hooked Survivor, so your fellow Survivors know they should let you get the unhook. There could also be a new way to inform Survivors on the HUD a perk that allows recovery from the dying state is in use.
Letting Survivors see each other's perks in the lobby is the laziest solution to closing this knowledge gap between Solo and SWF. One that I think will probably cause more ill than good. I swear this game is 1 step forwards, 2 steps back half the time. I mean, we may as well bring back visible prestige levels to the lobby if we're getting back into the business of giving players a reason to go lobby shopping once again.
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Legion were fixed for ONE whole patch before they somehow became more broken than ever in the next couple. Not BHVR's finest moment…
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I would honestly settle for a Trapper bot with full access to every map and Survivor perk so that we can at least explore tiles and map spawns at our leisure without the pressure of a real game. I want to be able to scout out set ups to loop around while the bots slam the gens. I don't think that's too much to ask for a mere 10 years into the game's lifespan.
I've played the Survive with Bots mode more times than I care to admit to practice my looping but that's only one single map on the MacMillan estate. Yes, Trapper bot is very stupid and he constantly whiffs at air, but he's still better than having nothing at all to practice against.
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Dreadful change. Honestly don't think anything good can come of this.
Against Survivors that know to split up against a Legion, I'd never be able to use my power to get any early pressure going. Not to mention the big nerf this would be to every stealth Killer in the game. It's only likely to make the weak killers even weaker. After all, it doesn't do Trapper any good for Survivors to see his traps littering the map at the start of a Trial.
If BHVR want to narrow the gap between SWF and SoloQ, they should look into nerfing the SWF side of the game and not give SoloQ more of the kind of unfairness that a SWF can bring to a Trial. Then adjust the stronger Killers to be more fair to the newly nerfed SWF/SoloQ reality.
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I agree, it's silly but it is what it is (and probably intentionally this way). So they probably won't be changing it.
Pro tip: If you get hit with a DC penalty, you can hit the ready up button in the lobby to start the penalty count down and it will still run even if you turn the game off. This way you can serve out your penalty while you stay away from the game for a bit.
At least that's what my friend told me, so you'll have to take their word for it… because I, of course, would never dream of DCing.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068299#Comment_4068299
Legion will only come back if they significantly change their power. And since this will probably not happen, you can count on Legion not coming back to 2v8.
If BHVR have to give them the Myers treatment and ruin the character just so they can be added back to a goofy casual mode nobody should be taking seriously, I think I'll have to pass on that.
They could honestly put them back into the 2V8 with zero changes imo and they'd still be one of the least busted things in a mode full of busted things. But then I've been arguing that since day one, so it's whatever at this point.
I'd maybe try something like a faster base Frenzy speed with Frenzy ending after 3 hits. I'd also give them their Iri pallet shredding add-on and let them recover from fatigue much faster. Something that would give them more ability to down Survivors alone without the need to rely so much on their partner mopping up. It could work since people seem to be more accepting of Killers with cartoonishly oppressive 1V1 powers in this mode. There's got to be something they can do that isn't so drastic as changing their entire power.
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Please tell me Legion will be back in the upcoming 2V8. It will be over 6 months since they got benched from the mode.
If they're not back for the next one, I doubt they'll ever be coming back at this point…
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067577#Comment_4067577
Bear in mind that if "top 18%" is defined as "high MMR" and you compare that to the elo distribution of chess then it equates to around the same elo as around 1950 elo. Which is what we would consider to be a "high skilled casual player" in the chess world. Like, the hustlers you see in public parks, type of skill level.
Also keep in mind that this accounts for a recent rating boost that FIDE did in 2024. If you look at the distrubution before that, it would have been around the 1600 range.
I've played online chess on and off for years and I managed to grind my way up to around about 800 elo in Rapid. I wouldn't be that strong these days because I've not played for a while. Anyway, I'm a low rated player but believe it or not, that's still high enough to put me in the "top" 20% of players. Someone around 1900 is in the top 1-2% and would absolutely destroy me in a game of rapid chess. I wouldn't say they were a casual chess player at that level (especially not if they have an actual FIDE rating).
But then again, I would never be matched up with 1900 rated player because online Chess has a ranking system that actually works and is meaningful. Chess is played by millions of people worldwide, so naturally I can easily find appropriate opponents around about my skill level, but DBD only has thousands of players siloed onto local servers by necessity and it doesn't have such a luxury. Mismatches will be common.
So yeah, I do think there probably is a huge difference between top and bottom of "high MMR" for DBD. Not that I think DBD and Chess are really similar at all (because they're not). The only thing they have in common imo is that to be genuinely good at both games, you need to be very dedicated to learning. It's not enough by itself to play and expect to improve beyond a certain point.
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"Broad MMR" 😂
It's OK BHVR, you can call us low MMR. It's not gonna hurt our feelings.
The original BHVR post listed "high MMR" as being the top 18% of the player base. A surprisingly big bracket, tbh. I can see there being quite a big difference between players at the bottom end of that 18% compared to those at the very top.
As much as I appreciate these stats, I feel like they don't really tell us a lot. There are 42 Killers and 52 Survivors in the game at this point, can we at least get a top ten? I could have guessed most of these stats. We don't really need official stats to tell us that Sable/Kate/Feng are popular Survivors or that the usual suspects chosen by competitive Survivors are the ones that escape the most. We already know. The stats might be a little more interesting further down the rankings.
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I haven't tried it out myself, but I bet the Never Sleep Pills + Fuming Mix Tape + Ruin combo is pretty good for regressing the blood gens on Legion. Or at least it would be if BHVR hadn't made them a buggy, motion sickness inducing mess with the latest patch (Switch gamers can still enjoy this build being a patch behind, so I might give this a go later on my Switch). Otherwise, I'm staying away from this Killer until they get fixed because I get pretty bad motion sickness.
On Survivor, I'm just using a rotation of my personal meme build favourites. But I did think of a build with the new Eleven perk that might be pretty good for doing blood gens. Fixated + Urban Evasion + Extrasensory Perception + Open-Handed might be a solid combo for moving faster without spilling blood, while also keeping an eye on the Killer and staying under the radar. I didn't buy the ST 2 chapter because it was a disappointing one for me, so I can't test the build for myself.
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@Wezqu said:
Yeah this forgets the people who play both sides that are in reality the majority of players so if those that main killers would leave then queue times might get higher but it would not remove all killer players. I myself for example would not really get why you play a game but only half of it anyway.
This is my take as well. I'm technically still a Survivor main because that's what I've historically preferred, but these days (unless an event is live) I play Killer pretty much exclusively. So I wouldn't be going anywhere in this scenario.
There must be very few "Killer only" mains out there, though I can see there being more players that only play Survivor. Some people only want to play with their friends or don't want to acclimatise themselves to the stress of playing Killer (as we all know, it's definitely a very stressful role when you first start playing it).
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I had what I think passes for a "chill" Blight the other night. He had no slow down perks and was going after the unhooker, but he still took an opportunity to slug the entire team to finish the game. We tried our best to recover (the Bill even had Unbreakable) but it didn't help in the end and we all abandoned.
I don't know why some players play in the event like this but they always do. Splitting the queues the way that they do, presumably in the hope that players might treat events differently, has been a failed experiment imo. That said, there isn't really anything new or different for Killers to engage with - just a different kind of gen to kick. So I can't blame Killers too much for playing a normal round of DBD when not much is different from regular 1V4.
Tbh, These days I always expect to encounter sweaty players in the event queue and I am never disappointed. The only way for me to enjoy the events is to stick on a meme build that I enjoy and to not care at all about winning or losing or getting tunnelled out.
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I'm just so tired of the event offerings being personal only. I feel like it makes the offerings kinda anthithetical to what the events should be about, which is to bring the community together to play the event. Especially since this particular event is meant to be about farming as much BP as possible, it makes even less sense to me to make it personal and not stackable.
What do BHVR have against players being able to earn a ton of BP? I don't need to play for the BP anymore since I've prestiged my characters up to the point that I care to, but a BP bonanza would be a big help to all the newer players that haven't unlocked much yet.
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Whoops, I goofed and double posted.
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You can get similar cheesy value out of Specialist. Is that perk also a problem? I remember there being similar CC videos about this perk and yet you hardly ever see it. Fast Track is just flavour of the month right now.
I've not seen this perk in many of my trials, tbh. Most Survivors are still opting for the guaranteed value of perks like Deja Vu or Resilience and remain unconvinced by the theoretical strength of Fast Track.
To be honest, I'm not sure the vast majority of Survivors can even hit great skill checks with any kind of consistency. I'd never bring this perk myself because with my ageing reflexes (that were never great to begin with) I know I'd be blowing up every gen trying to hit that great. I tend to avoid gen perks anyway because I find them to be the most boring perks to bring on both sides of the game.
I see how SWF squads of 3 or 4 players bringing it to trial with their full gen rush builds could be a problem, but that's less an issue with the perk and more an issue with BHVR's refusal to do anything about these groups cheesing their way to victory synergising their builds like this. Groups like these cause a lot of balance issues.
I think being able to stack gen perks on either side of the game is kinda silly, anyway (not to mention incredibly dull). That said, I do appreciate being able to slow the game down a little more if I'm playing as Trapper or a Killer I'm terrible with. But I'd be all for stronger individual gen perks if they couldn't be stacked or ran together any longer.