thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@bjorksnas said:
I think scot junds intension with tournament seeding isn't to pick a seed in advance and let tournament players train on it, I think more the intension is they find a balanced map seed at random and make all teams play on it for the first time in the tournament so they can compare how people are on the same map with all the same resources
Actually he literally said it would be exactly that in Umbra's chat. That players would have the seed beforehand and be able to practice on it.
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@KnotEnthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1730496#Comment_1730496
Literally one small change has a chance to radically change the strength of all of those maps. Window placement on the house of pain in Badham turns it from an easy structure to a massive timesuck. Chapel can spawn a long wall jungle gym window into shack window. Coal tower can have 5 long walls, or 5 TL walls. At tournament level play, the difference between the placement of one vault can mean the difference between a 30 second chase and a 3 minute chase. There are no "stable" maps in DBD because small changes have massive repercussions.
And I don't understand how you can say inconsistency is vital to the games design, when poor map RNG is literally one of the biggest complaints about this game.
Yes is which why you have a rule that says a team can restart a trial. So that when the killer walks over to shack and goes "oh ######### this sucks" they can do something about it.
Inconsistency is necessary to a degree because RNG ultimately makes survivors weaker. If they don't know where to run or where a gen or totem is, that benefits the killer. Otherwise literally every game will be a 4e because no killer can beat a coordinated 4 man on comms that knows where everything is before the game starts. It's just not possible in a tournament setting.
Also I never said all RNG is good, I said SOME RNG is good and no RNG is bad.
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@PyroGL said:
I don't think there is a numerical number that can express how low on the priority list this is for the devs. It is an excellent idea and addition to the competitive side of the game, but is never likely to happen.
A seeding mechanic is not even necessary is what I'm saying. We can build a ruleset around the RNG and make it all work just fine. Just because the map isn't exactly the same every time isn't a bad thing. I argue it's actually a good thing.
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@KnotEnthusiast said:
You've missed the point entirely. Random seeding means that a vastly inferior team could win based solely off of drawing good map RNG. It has nothing to do with killer vs survivor sided, it has everything to do with consistency between each game. It'd be like if in the World Cup, the size of each goal was entirely random: North Korea could randomly roll a goal the size of a microwave and beat Brazil, but it clearly would have nothing to do with their skill.
Also I don't know how set seeding could possibly be more boring than RNG. I find skill of players in chase interesting, not whether or not there happened to be 21 pallets that spawned in the vicinity of the survivor. And as long as there is map RNG, there will be better and worse seeds, sacrificing the integrity of the game. Not every game would be on the same map 100% of the time, it would just mean that the map would be the same between both sides of two head to head teams.
"You've missed the point entirely. Random seeding means that a vastly inferior team could win based solely off of drawing good map RNG."
No they can't, not unless that RNG is extremely different than the previous game. Hence why I say to just not play with maps that have a high variability to RNG. You want to pick stable maps. Coal Tower. Church. One of the fair Badham variants. ETC. You don't have this problem you are saying because those maps don't exist in your tournament.
If things are slightly different from game to game, that is entirely fair. Guaranteeing consistency just removes a major component of how DBD works, and you need to keep that component for the game to actually be viable at a tournament level because it's fundamental to the game's design.
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@FrostySeal said:
Wouldn't an easy solution to this would be just to get multiple map seeds? They don't have to just use one, they can use multiple so it isn't boring for the audience and teams have a harder time predicting which map they'll get. Also for your second point I've gotta disagree with you. I have 1130 hours in the game and from my own experience every single map in the game is heavily influenced by RNG. Even the map that is considered the most balanced in the game, coal tower, can have awful RNG. I once got a coal tower with almost no filler pallets, 2 T and L walls and 3 pallet gyms, likewise I've also gotten coal towers with 6 filler pallets and 3 Jungle gyms.
By doing this, you're not solving the problem, rather just red-shifting it.
You need to understand that when money is on the line normal tactics don't apply. People are playing to win, and the really smart/good ones will memorize each seed.
Furthermore it is impossible for us to say what is and isn't good/bad RNG until we know all the variables. What could be good RNG for Billy on X map could be bad for Trapper. So now you have to factor killers and such into this and it becomes a mess.
The easy solution is to have a rule that says teams can cancel a trial for whatever reason 1 time per round (a round being a full set between 2 teams). Then it's on the players themselves to make that call, and they can use it for whatever reason they want. If they had a bad totem spot, they can do it, or if there was a ungodly loop between shack and this adjacent tile that would cost them the game, they can do it there too.
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@Xbob42 said:
You could always make survivors weaker by banning comms so they have to play like solo queue... 😉
No you can't.
Unless it's a live event you have no control over the players. All things considered, every tournament for DBD is going to be online and there is no way for you, as a tournament ref, to verify that I'm not on the phone with my team or something outside of having us stream a facecam which is unreasonable to expect everyone to have the ability to do that.
You have to let all forms of comms because you can't police it. Therefore the rules should be built around knowing that survivors can communicate.
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Shouldn't have even been a thing.
Listen for footsteps. They are already quite audible.
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@Nemmy_Wemmy said:
What killer and build you been using with it @thesuicidefox ? Im guessing Legion because I remember you being a legion main. Plus id like to try out your build on whatever killer you been playing with it on.
I love my variety.
Legion main what?? LOL
I have been using it on Spirit and Freddy. Mostly Freddy because he's the only killer that is playable for me right now. Spirit I played like 2 games but I avoid playing her right now because of how ######### the game's performance is on Xbox.
@Bwsted said:
Forced penance is superior than sloppy at ensuring that survivors spread out and focus on gens. So, not only encourages optimal survivor gameplay, but it also makes sure you play the game with 3 perks.
They can do that but they have to work through Thana. Making them broken ensures 80 seconds of Thana, which is a full gen solo. 4 stacks of Thana pushes a gen to 100 seconds solo.
Survivors HAVE to group up on gens with Thana if they want them done quickly. That means you will be able to get FP procs by catching them in groups.
You REALLY should try it before you bash it.
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Sole Survivor
Literally requires your teammates to die to give any value. It's like old Dying Light but in reverse.
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You guys miss the point.
First, FP is easy as hell to get. If you EVER start a chase on an injured survivor and then hit a healthy survivor it will count for FP.
Second, you are using FP to keep Thana up as long as possible. It is easy to heal through Sloppy. 2 survivors healing will still only take 11 seconds. You CANNOT heal through Broken though. It doesn't matter what kind of medkit you have. Plus now they are scared to group heal when they aren't broken because if you find them they will all be broken again.
I just won a game and got 4 of them broken at once by slugging a bit and finding them group healing. With Thana active that much it crushed them.
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No Counter Play Spirit
- Insidious
- Lightborn
- Iron Maiden
- Monstrous Shrine
- Go camp the basement chest. Wait for one to meme at a locker. Profit.
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IDK why they don't just make the footsteps louder and more consistent. That was honestly a pretty fair thing, since if you heard them you knew she was right on top of you.
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Black Box isn't really A tier. C maybe B.
Iri King is S tier. It's literally all his add-ons in one.
Father's Glass are B maybe A tier.
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That you'd need to take an IQ test before you can play.
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Surge, Ruin, Undying, Thana = ouchie hurtie no no
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@Unicorn said:
My question is why are charts put out just for the devs to say “its not accurate”?
This happens all the time.
Fact of the matter is they are accurate you just have to not look at them in a bubble. You need context.
Freddy having the highest kill rate, at both all ranks AND red ranks, for TWO data dumps in a row should be a red flag that something is up. That something being he has too many very strong tools in his base kit. He would be a LOT more balanced and skillful if we took away some of those tools, then added them to his bad add-ons and buffed them slightly (which is basically what I suggest to do at the end of the OP).
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Finding Dwight in a locker when I just wanted to reload.
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This has to be a bug. It makes no sense to literally revert her to PTB status where she was an insanely weak killer.
I get people don't like her, but the entire point of her power is to be confusing. This completely negates that.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1707066#Comment_1707066
I wonder if you noticed the part in my reply where I said you wouldn't read it?
you don't actually wanna have a conversation, you want people to say "yes you are right" and move on.
so in the end, you want the echo chamber you accused these forums of being... ironic isn't it?
I did read it, I only quoted that one statement because it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not going to sit here and feed you.
There are people that disagreed with me and gave valid points. I responded to those points. We had a conversation. What you are doing is not that. Like you said, ONCE AGAIN, it's how you say it ;)
EDIT: Additionally you should stop with this classic troll tactic of "no you". It's getting old.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706902#Comment_1706902
Instead you chose to respond to almost every sentence I wrote and chopped up the entire thing into tiny bits for the sole purpose of making it harder to reply to you (which IS gish galloping BTW)
I broke down the entire post because otherwise it would be hard to see exactly what I was replying to.
I stopped in the sentences I stopped, because you used that first part as the building blocks for the following parts, so I had to address those before going on.
and also you kept going on and on about how I had to address your entire post instead of focusing on the part I actually had an issue with. So I went all in. normally I wouldn't bother doing it with that many breaks, because it's unnecessary, but I was annoyed at you.
also, I can't gish gallop if you don't let me. this is text. you can reply to every single individual point I make. there's no time limit.
and being spiteful when I asked you to respond to my points and not the chart (again my points are not individual sentences).
they kinda are. each individual sentence is a point or a set up to a point or an example...to summarize, every sentence is helping your point in some way, otherwise they are useless and shouldn't be there.
So it's perfectly fine to address it in that way.
btw if I took entire paragraphs at a time, the reply would be the same, but you would have to keep going back and forth to see which part of the paragraphs I was replying to. So while the way I formated the reply might not be the simplest to reply to, it certainly makes it easy for you to see what I'm addressing at each point.
I humored you the first time and replied then you did the exact same thing with 1 line responses, no punctuation that were clearly written in haste just to put down some response.
you literally did the same, and didn't even have the courtesy of reading my entire post.
english is not my first language, so sorry if my ponctuation isn't to your standards...
I'm not even going to bother wasting my time responding a second time. Make a point or stop replying please. As you put it... "HOW you say things, matter."
you do know this is like our 8th interaction or something right?
I made my point several times already, you just ignored it time and time again.
it does, but HOW I say things doesn't change WHAT I'm saying. I already told you the issues with your post, you refused to address it.
It is intellectually dishonest AND gish galloping. The fact you now accuse me of both is hilarious.
the fact this sentence makes 0 logical sense to be put there is actually fascinating... it's like you just wrote the conclusion without bothering to write the premise.
let's see why you say I'm intellectually dishonest...
1- I'm making this about the chart
2- derailing the thread
3- purposefully making my post in a way that would make it hard to reply to
I believe these are all of them....
1-My first post was actually about you playing the victim card when people disagreed with you.
-then you said you made the title as bait.
-then I replied to a different post, because there were new comments already, and called out how using past charts as support for new charts is not valid. and pointed out that when you use bait, you get fish.(since that was the reply to your previous post)
-then you doubled down on the charts being good. because you interpreted them in a way that they are.
-then I explained to you why the charts don't say what you think they say.
and let me be perfectly clear here... you COULD be right. but the charts don't confirm it. they are too vague.
If I give you a chart of the average of crimes per area of a city, you can say which area has more crimes, but it doesn't say what crimes, who commits them, why, or on who.
Your entire post, is not confirmed by the charts. Your post, is your interpretation of WHY the chart is that way.
logically speaking, your post without the chart part is A, the chart is B.
you should be saying A->B. to put it in another way, 'B is the result of A' or 'the chart is like this because freedy is op'
but you keep trying to say A+B->B.
You want B to both mean that freddy is OP, and to be a premise of the argument for freddy being op. It just doesn't work that way. and I was pointing out this failure in your logic.
-then you triple down on charts being fine without understanding why I say they aren't.
-and we go more and more into the chart thing...
I might have made it about the chart, but it's not how it started.
2- if anything, my first post is the only one unrelated to your first post. because I was making a comment on your reaction to criticism. everything else has been about your first post or at least one of your arguments for freddy being op.
so this doesn't apply.
3- I didn't do it on purpose. but I do see how it can be anoying to reply to it.
but you also made a post in a similar way to mine, and I replied to it. so if I'm guilty of this, so are you.
Imagine being so salty you took easy bait that you now go full throttle troll mode.
I don't think you read up to the point where I broke down how our early interactions happened here in general terms... but if you did, you saw how that's not what happened. (you can also read everything if you want, just use my name to find the relevant posts. I already know you don't like reading long post, so I don't think you will read them all, but feel free to prove me wrong)
also, you can't both go into "this is a troll" and "my argument is correct". pick one.
You. Just. Did. It. Again.
"also, I can't gish gallop if you don't let me. this is text. you can reply to every single individual point I make. there's no time limit."
Like you can't be for real with this kind of comment. I'm not MAKING you gish gallop you did that on your own and it's intellectually dishonest. If you really don't think you are gish galloping and being intellectually dishonest with your replies, I honestly have nothing else to say to you. You're not adding anything to the discussion, you're not actually addressing my points or even providing valid counterpoints when you do, you're intentionally trying to trigger me and/or derail the conversation by making it about the charts. Come at me with a reasonable response and we can have a discussion. I'm not playing this bit with you.
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Event hooks can't be sabo'd. They started doing this with the first Halloween event I think, maybe the event just after it. Unfortunate because sabo was a lot different when they made this rule, I don't think it's necessary now.
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No Exhaustion doesn't go down if you run. However, 5 seconds is almost nothing. If they make it to a pallet and drop it they can easily wait for the Exhaustion to go away while you break or mind game it.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1706643#Comment_1706643
mate, you didn't even read my entire post, because you didn't even realize there was a reply to the newest one at the end of it.
apparently I need to allow you to gish gallop aswell...
but no...I'm the one that's intellectually dishonest here...
I made 5 very clear points, you could have responded to those with bullet points.
Instead you chose to respond to almost every sentence I wrote and chopped up the entire thing into tiny bits for the sole purpose of making it harder to reply to you (which IS gish galloping BTW) and being spiteful when I asked you to respond to my points and not the chart (again my points are not individual sentences). I humored you the first time and replied then you did the exact same thing with 1 line responses, no punctuation that were clearly written in haste just to put down some response. I'm not even going to bother wasting my time responding a second time. Make a point or stop replying please. As you put it... "HOW you say things, matter."
It is intellectually dishonest AND gish galloping. The fact you now accuse me of both is hilarious.
Imagine being so salty you took easy bait that you now go full throttle troll mode.
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@LegitLegendary0 said:
Nah he's fine your just not good at the game as survivor, he is great in some aspects but it's just like bubba, just run him around and pull a pallet down early, I win against him most of the time but I can see what you mean, maybe remove one of his abilities like the teleport and you have a balanced killer, only then will people say buff him, you can never be happy, just deal with it.
Another one that didn't actually read anything.
If you did you'd realize I'm making these points based on playing Freddy myself at rank 1 since his rework.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1705655#Comment_1705655
pointing out that he shouldn't use vague stats to draw specific conclusions is not "reacting poorly".
either way, he's still wrong is most of what he said even without taking into account the stats.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1705618#Comment_1705618
and he didn't even reply to the entire thing like he kept asking me to do... isn't that cute?
I never asked you to reply to the entire thing I asked you to reply to my points and not make this about the chart. You insist though to derail the thread continuously because I reference the chart as supporting evidence NOT as the basis for my argument.
Then you go and make the most half ass attempt to reply, literally single lines of text to single lines of text (newsflash a point is not individual sentences) in an effort to further derail the conversation by purposely making it as difficult as possible to reply to you, which I did anyway.
What you did is the most intellectually dishonest thing I've seen on these forums. Considering how this place is, that says a lot.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704193#Comment_1704193
k mate.
want me to address all your points just so I can address this one thing? will that somehow mean that what I say will have a different meaning? No. it won't.
but apparently I'm not allowed to focus on one part of what you said...nooooooo... I need to talk about all the things to disagree on one point right?
so...sure...let's waste a bunch of my time to address this.
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position.
I must preface this with...
I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
I don't see how this is relevant in any way shape or form. whatever level of skill you had with old freddy is not important when talking about new freddy.
I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
fun anecdote. How can you measure how oppressive you are? do you think kills=opressiveness or gens left=opressiveness? how did you measure how opressive you are?
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on.
No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide.
No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure.
is billy not a thing anymore?
also... are you saying a hag with traps set up doesn't have pressure? have you watched high skilled hags play?
Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
same for billy.
high mobility killers can use bbq, discordance, surveillance, tinkerer, ruin and pop better than slower killers... who knew?
freddy is not even in the top 5 of thana users though... so bad example there.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast.
no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here.
well, if you can't loop a freddy, it's not because he's strong, it's because you're bad. (see? this argument is dumb)
Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
you mean you can't loop a killer with a strong anti loop power for too long?
how insightful
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius.
do you actually have any example that isn't bt?
it's just bt isn't it?
did you try waking up before going for a save?
Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
this is indeed wrong and should be fixed.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR.
that is on brand for freddy. hell... if you go with his actual powers, you shouldn't see at all while awake.
This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here.
that and you spend what? 80% of the match asleep? freddy doesn't get to be invisible all that much.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds.
You have already been told this is wrong, so I won't bother repeating that
This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period.
and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal.
They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them.
Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
Replace hag with demogorgon. freddy is limited on his teleports while hag isn't.
Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit
he has a teleport and snares.
anything else you talked about isn't base kit
wanna see a quick list of killers that have a similar amount of things base kit?
pig has stealth, slow down and a dash attack.
billy has the highest mobility in the game and an instant down.
ghostface has stealth and an instant down.
demo has a little stealth, a teleport, full map detection and a dash attack.
so no... I don't think freddy has "WAY WAY too much in his base kit"
and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers.
that's your opinion. I think he has that kill rate because he's easy to do well with.
You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive.
different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others.
why do you think your experience means more than anyone elses? Which metric did you use to determine that?
Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat.
a good killer with a strong build is hard to beat? wow...
next you'll tell me that a good 4 man SWF survivor team is hard to beat...
Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF,
I play solo and have beaten several good freddys.
but I guess they aren't really "good freddys" right?
the good freddys are obviously only the ones that have beaten me... definetively... right? /s
which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
indeed
So what is the solution? How do we fix this?
You have yet to demonstrate the problem
I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion.
we all know you are doing both
Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
NIGHTMARE
Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
to me this is perfectly fair
Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
I don't see how this would change anything.
Oblivious removed from Dream World.
what does the dream world do now?
Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
again, perfectly fair.
Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
I would add a limit to how much the penalty goes. but removing this would make the clocks entirely useless.
Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
so make it z block? it's still crap...
Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
do you wanna remove the slowdown effects or add more of them? seems contradictory.
also... I think removing the clock aura works against freddy. let them waste a minute running across the map to wake up.
Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
ok
Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
this seems very meh... how often do survivors even wake up?
also... what about the pallets?
Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
so...what should be base kit in an addon? totally not silly...
Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
even less incentive to go to the clock?
totally what freddy wants.... /s
Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
sure...
Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
why? pallets are easy to deal with already, why reduce them?
Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
damn...what a nerf.
but fair... it's totally not in the survivors control if they get revealed or not right? and freddy is ALWAYS looking at them /s
Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
totally...yeah... I absolutely would use this. totally not useless. /s
you somehow made the meme addon less useable...damn...
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
and again, this is fine
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
again, this would literally change nothing.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons.
and that, is a terrible goal. making a killer more addon reliant is never good.
Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him.
Didn't you spend quite a bunch of time saying his stealth is too good?
You should really update your stuff instead of just copy-pasting it.
This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
you literally made it worse mate.
you nerfed the range. and gave it nothing in return.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
and yet it's not what you did with your changes. all you did was limit freddy.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it
I agree he doesn't need more than one.
but you also made paint thinner #########...
what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor.
so enjoyable to see an aura every 10 min in game...great stuff.
people don't wake up genious... it won't activate more than maybe 10 times total in a match. and more than half of them will be when you won't be able to use the information, wether because you are already chasing someone or because it's literally the person you are chasing.
and the ones where you aren't chasing someone? it's the guy that just came out of the hook. so you made a tunneling perk... survivors love those...
I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
that's sad... I can give you like 5 different thing right now...
1- reduces the sleeping clock time by a set amount
2- decreases teleport charge time
3- reduces lullaby range
4- shows the aura of asleep survivors in a small range
5- gives freddy the ability to "unteleport" meaning, after a very small amount of time after he teleports, he can press the power button again and return to where he was before the teleport
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against.
"still really good"... HA!
when was the last time you saw someone saying survivors focusing more on doing gens instead of going to clocks to wake up is good for freddy? or doing gens instead of waking each other up?
Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
and why is that? bt counter? other killers also have bt counters in their base kit mate.
you need to give better reasoning
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better.
it's funny that you think you made it better... there' literally no reason to use it over literally anything else.
This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
technically, yes they did.
also, the terrible addon no one would ever use is compensation for the nerf? damn... you are cruel.
But even if the addon wasn't terrible, you literally didn't solve the thing you consider to be the problem with them.
so a terrible reward that does nothing is compensation for a dumb nerf that changed nothing... quite fitting
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Nah...
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not.
I know that. You have already decided he is and won't listen to anyone telling you otherwise no matter what they bring to the discussion.
totally not a terrible person to have a discussion with... /s
He very much is
You have yet to demonstrate this
and the chart above confirms it.
it does not.
We need to discuss ways to fix this.
No we don't. Because you have yet to demonstrate that there is something that needs fixing.
besides infectious fright working on sleeping survivors, that is indeed bs and should not be the case.
well then... there it is. I replied to your entire first post without mentioning the chart (besides when you mentioned it first) wasn't this a great use of my time?
can we focus on the part I wanna talk about now?
Or is there any other bs reason we can't?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704193#Comment_1704193
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason,
first, yes it is. the data came from them.
second, I gave you other reasons. you are just too stubborn.
especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy.
you actually haven't done that. You said he is too strong and said the stats confirm it.
you didn't demonstrate a pattern between them and didn't even attempt to. You are just holding the stats up as shield to protect your opinion from people calling you out on it.
You already decided freddy is op and took things that don't demonstrate that, as proof that he is.
and is now acting like a child when people correctly tell you that this is not that the graphs shows.
because the strenght of a character, is not part of the graph.
the graph only shows 2 things. how often a character is picked and how many kills he gets on average.
ANYTHING ELSE you get from them, are your INTERPRETATION of things, NOT what things actually are.
LEARN. TO. READ. GRAPHS.
THAT IS THE RED FLAG.
the pattern you didn't demonstrate?
guess that means there isn't a red flag, since you failed to provide the pattern.
My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts.
Just because the chart isn't your only reason, it doesn't mean you didn't present it as an argument.
I said you drew your conclusion from it. at least partially. and you did.
"and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
You claim I am doing that when I am not.
again, "and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart.
1st- I never said you drew your conclusions solely from the chart. I said it was partially from it
2nd- the definition of a strawman is
is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.
which is ironically, what you are doing right now...
You claim I am doing that...
You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart...
these are all examples of you strawmanning me.
This entire time my point has been that
- the graphs cannot be used to show that freddy is op, because that is not a data point in the graphs.
- Using them to reach the conclusion of freddy being op is wrong.
- You shouldn't have used them as part of your arguments.
and yet you failed to address that time and time again.
up until this comment I hadn't even expressed my opinion on if freddy is op or not, because it was completely irrelevant.
If you use the wrong strategy, but reaches the correct answer, it still means you used the wrong strategy.
and when I criticize your strategy, the answer is irrelevant.
Not once do either of you actually address my points
Because that's not what I was trying to do.
or try to refute the evidence
Your only evidence is anecdotes and the graphs.
How can you say I didn't try yo refute the evidence when the graphs are part of it?
other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
and again, strawman.
How many times do I need to tell you that the graphs don't show that freddy is op just because you want them to?
if you wanna say "Freddy is the most lethal killer in both graphs, therefore he is op" then you MUST accept the argument "Nurse is the least lethal killer in both graphs, therefore she is the worst".
We both know the second argument is BS. Why do you think yours is any better? (spoiler alert, it's just as BS as the nurse one but you refuse to see it)
Now, mister "you need to address everything"... I'm looking forward to your reply to absolutely EVERYTHING I said in this post.
If you don't address everything, then anything you say can be dismissed by me. (that's how it works right?)
"why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position."
Because the thread is about Freddy and there is evidence to support my claims, unlike both Nurse and Spirit which the data does not support the claims made against them.
"why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it."
The chart is all ranks so this cannot be the case. You could make this argument for a chart showing only red ranks, but even then because there is a trend between all ranks and red ranks, and there is a trend from the previous data dump it would be untrue.
"No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide."
The cooldown is very quick even when survivors are awake, such that you should always have it available after getting a hooking or otherwise applying pressure elsewhere on the map. And I never said Billy or any other killer doesn't have pressure, I said Freddy has the MOST pressure because he can travel the entire map in under 5 seconds. No other killer can go from one side of the map to the other that fast.
"no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here."
You miss the point. Of course it was your skill, but you needed to be much more skilled to run from a good Clown than a good Legion, for example, who has no chase power. Just as you'd have to be a lot more skill to run from a good Freddy. The difference between Clown and Freddy (for now at least) is that Clown's only got the chase. It would be nice if he had SOME other things sure, but Freddy has almost equal potential in a chase AND THEN SOME (actually and then a lot).
"do you actually have any example that isn't bt? it's just bt isn't it? did you try waking up before going for a save?"
Considering BT is a major meta perk for survivors, that's all I really need to say honestly. He gets a FREE counter to it where other killers have some kind of drawback. Wraith and Pig need to stay undetectable while the save is made. GF can be revealed. Other undetectable perks have limits. Freddy just needs to hit you OR you just need to be asleep for him to counter BT. I've literally just camped while someone tried to save, waited for them to fall asleep, hit them so they save, then down the guy they just saved because I know he doesn't have BT. In other words, I can both prevent the save and prevent BT from activating where other killers can only do one at a time. Him being able to counter this specific perk this way is probably the major reason he does as well as he does.
"you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here."
You still miss the point. Yes 32m is a good distance to react, the point is he gets something for free other killers don't get. Any other killer, including the MF'er that turns invisible, can be spotted coming from more than 32m away. Not Freddy. You can only react once you are within 32m, or you stay asleep and eat whatever penalties that comes with.
"and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal. They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them."
While I won't disagree his other add-ons suck, saying his chains/rope are bad is flat out wrong. They are some of the most effective add-ons in the game. Yes they were nerfed but still no other killer has built in passive slowdown on gens. NONE. Huntress has to hit you with a hatchet and it only lasts 2 minutes that's the closest comparison, but that is insanely weak compared to an up to 8% debuff passive affecting everyone with chains. To sit here and say "their effects are minimal" is like saying "iri head reduces hatchet count to 1 so the effects are minimal".
"he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?"
Old Freddy did yes.
"Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?"
Like I said before 1) she has to actively do something to counter BT and has a drawback to that counter (she is slower), and 2) pig traps are not a slowdown mechanic they are an alternative objective. She still has nothing to actually slow down survivors that want to do gens. I could finish 2 gens with a trap on then do 1 box and get it off. That's not the same thing as applying a universal 12% debuff from my power alone to gen speed.
"he has a teleport and snares."
And passive slowdown, and pallets, and tracking (via screams/pallet drops), and passive BT counter, and semi-stealth. You really don't play Freddy much do you?
Also the major difference between him have multiple powers and a killer like Demo or Pig is that Demo and Pigs tools are not nearly as good as Freddy's. His teleport is superior, his anti-BT is superior, his chase potential is superior, everything he does is better than either of them.
"different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others."
Do those people have 2 different data dumps demonstrating a visible trend? No? Okay moving on.
"You have yet to demonstrate the problem"
This literally just made me LOL.
Honestly not getting into the rest as they were just my suggestions for what to do about him. I'm not really caring to push that, except for the smaller snares, removal of Oblivious from Dream World and it being placed onto an add-on, and the reworking of his chains/rope add-ons. Also I would really like the change to Paint Thinner I suggested, and I would like his other add-ons be made more viable too. I'm not asking to make him ######### tier again.
I made a very clear and valid statement about Freddy being too strong which I then supported with the chart (and subsequently the charts from last time). I applaud your commitment to quoting my entire post and making as difficult to respond to you as possible, but your counter points just don't hold up to scrutiny. You can sit there and tell me how you beat Freddy all the time or some #########, but there are multiple things here showing you're wrong.
"this is SO much better articulated than OP.
@thesuicidefox THIS is how you make an argument for freddy being OP. learn from it."
He literally said the same things I did. SMH His only addition really was the 1:1 / 1:2 ratio thing.
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@cannonballB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704644#Comment_1704644
The only bhvr stat you have is 1 graphic showing pick rate vs kill rate unless bhvr has actually shared their data with us all and I missed it.
The only echo chamber I see here is the anecdotal evidence chamber. Get me some hard data. Freddy is counterable, like hex perks.
They released a stat dump probably about this time last year, a few months after Freddy's rework, and even there he had a significantly higher kill rate at all ranks. They also included red ranks, where he was still the highest by a wide margin.
Comparing that one to this one it seems that EVERY killer's kill rate went down, but Freddy remains above every other killer by a statistically significant amount.
Also I never claim anything about counter play. YES he can be countered, I won't deny that, but he is still a very strong killer so much that he has the highest kill rate for well over a year.
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I do. Just because they said "don't draw conclusions" does not mean that the charts are meaningless. When you consider ALL this stuff the picture becomes pretty clear that Freddy needs to be tuned down some.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704524#Comment_1704524
Its because they have passive sleep.
Fox stated that if he were to change the dream mechanics that he would change that the dream time wouldn't count down until you hit them for the first time. But the timer just means you are in micro sleep. Which also means that Freddy could theoretically hunt you down. Removing the timer until the first hit would not canonically make any sense to his lore.
It makes complete sense, what about it doesn't make sense? The lore is supposed to be that he gets his power from people remembering him. If he never attacks someone he can't be remembered.
Furthermore lore should not supersede gameplay. It's a simple change that would make things better for both sides.
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@cannonballB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704533#Comment_1704533
He will if you keep looping the same loop. Move away. I literally just listed to someone else how to counter Freddy. It's not hard.
Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill.
My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up. I main Freddy. I still lose games. Somewhat often. And I'm not even in red ranks. I lose more than i win though. Having data of kill rate doesn't actually tell you if it's *win rate*. There's a difference.
And yes, kill rate can LEAD to win rate, but that's not definitive.
"Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill."
A 'win' is subjective in this game. Kills are not. No one is basing their arguments on wins, they base it on kill rate and killer effectiveness.
"My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up."
Except I have 2 sets of data to back it up.
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@cannonballB said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704508#Comment_1704508
As you just said, you don't have access to bhvrs data. That is exactly where I'd look. Especially since the devs have told you to not only look at that chart. Unless I missed it, you don't even know what criteria the "win rate" is in that graphic. (This one I might have missed and it'd answer how many people escaped vs died.) The point of that question is, what constitutes a "win"? All 4 killed or just 2 killed? If it's only 2 that means 2 people still escaped and won. That would be pretty balanced, yes?
Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?
It's not "win rate' it's kill rate, therefore we know exactly how they get it. By killing survivors. The more survivors they kill, invariably, the stronger of a killer they are.
"Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?"
A good Freddy will catch you because of snares, so I highly doubt this claim.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
Plus how could Freddy hit a survivor if they weren't in the dream world? You are pretty much making Freddy 100% useless based on the "he must hit them first" yet it is known he can only attack when you are asleep.
???
Not really sure if you are making a joke or misunderstood something I was saying in the OP.
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@cannonballB said:
Ok let me rephrase this. Please, what kind of hard evidence do you have? Other than your gut feelings (which can easily be wrong or ignore other sets of data that are relevent)?
Do you have ANY evidence other than "my friends and I see him win a lot with strong perks so he's bad". This isn't evidence. Irs your gut feeling. I don't care if you've played literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week since it released. You're still using 1 *small* set of data. Your own. That's it.
Let me ask you this, what "hard evidence" would satisfy you? Because I don't have access to all of BHVR's data. Therefore all I can give you is my experience and what data they have given, but even then I make completely valid arguments about Freddy.
Everyone wants to contest how I came to my conclusion instead of my conclusions themselves. Explain to me how anything I said about him is wrong. That he doesn't have the best gen pressure in the game, or free passives no other killer gets, or semi-stealth, or anit-chase mechanics.
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@cannonballB said:
Ok but opinions are still opinions, yes?
Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't? Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost? Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power? This would determine if his power was too strong. Also, can you give me information on how many times survivors actually run over traps or get caught with fake pallets?
Your conclusions are all anecdotal evidence with 1 specific chart that BHVR said literally do not do what you're doing.
Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it.
You have no argument because you have no basis for comparison. You have no idea what is and isn't right with his kit. You don't even know how often his powers are used.
"Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? "
34%. I got that from the chart because that's what the chart literally is.
"Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't?"
Why does this matter? He has very close to an average of a 3k, meaning 1 person is getting hatch enough to lower it and then Freddy is losing a 3k just enough to keep him below it. He is still ABOVE every other killer, including objectively strong killers like Spirit, Nurse, and Oni. And just as devs made a point about why Nurse's kill rate is so LOW, I could make the same points about Freddy's is so HIGH.
"Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost?"
Honestly irrelevant. We aren't looking at builds we are looking at just Freddy. If I was saying "this particular build on Freddy is OP" this would be relevant to discuss.
"Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power?"
Again irrelevant. Freddy not using his power is basically an m1 killer, but even then he has passive effects that other killers do not get.
"Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it."
My observations of my own experience, other's experience, the consistency of all that experience, AND 2 sets of data to validate that experience. They are facts at this point.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704420#Comment_1704420
I guess my counters will never be read if you're not willing to discuss :(
Copy paste them I'll reply. I don't have the time to read through 9 pages sorry.
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@cannonballB said:
The problem I see with your conclusions are, they're all anecdotal based. You're using strictly your own experience without discussing with other people who play Freddy. The experience that 1 player has isn't representative of all experiences.
I'm a bad bad player but I main Freddy. I get roughly half win half loss. The wins can be hard but the losses? When a team wants you to lose, you'll lose. This isn't a direct comment on balance, more I'm using the same anecdotal evidence you are. As far as I'm concerned, Freddy could use a buff because I'm not winning as many games as I'd like. 🤣😂
More importantly than your experience is the CONSISTENCY of your experience.
When I play Freddy at rank 1, the only teams that can CONSISTENTLY challenge me are 4 man SWF. Other groups might challenge me at times but it's not consistent. The only times I lose as Freddy, consistently, are when I make big mistakes or, sadly, because the game is failing (Xbox frame rates get worse and worse as you play, you need to reset the game every once in a while). Additionaly, as survivor Freddy is the most consistently difficult killer to play against. That means regardless of the player, other survivors, the map, the perks, or just good ole RNG, Freddy gives the most challenge CONSISTENTLY.
On top of this it's not just my opinion. A lot of my friend share this opinion with me that Freddy is too strong. Some are killer mains with thousands of hours.
So when I talk about my experience I'm talking about my experience, other's experience that I know or play with regularly, and the CONSISTENCY of all that experience over the last year or so, whenever it was they reworked Freddy.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704401#Comment_1704401
I guess you won't be addressing anything I've said, then.
Here I edited the post but w/e
_________________
Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...
1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.
2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares). He also has way better synergy with every top tier perk in the game, INCLUDING Pigs own Surveillance, and even to an extent Make Your Choice since he could, in theory, teleport back to a hook right after a save.
3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.
4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.
Now that I've dismantled your entire position I'm not going to discuss Pig because the thread is about Freddy. You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704368#Comment_1704368
Your previous feelings/posts regarding Freddy are irrelevant to my comments regarding Pig's extremely disproportionate pick/kill rate, multi-faceted kit, slowdown add-ons, and anecdotal experiences - I'm not seeing the relevance of whether I made the claim before - Opinions can be formed at any time - I'm making it now.
You're free to discuss or dismantle my claims regarding Pig at any time - They're in this thread.
You're making it now... purely because of the chart. That is the key difference.
Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...
1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.
2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares).
3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.
4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.
You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.
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Thank you for this. Exactly what we have all been saying.
"A high kill rate does not mean there is a problem, it suggests we should look at it."
Which we have a previous set of data that correlates strongly with this one, and then all my arguments in the OP as to what is going on. All of which just further suggest there is a problem.
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@Lufanati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704326#Comment_1704326
the charts are completely unreliable. They don't take into account trolls, afks, DCs, wildly mismatched matchmaking, killers farming, killers giving hatch, etc. There's a reason the devs themselves said it was garbage data.
Which one would be safe to assume that all killers get relatively equal amounts of this stuff. It's not like Freddy gets more troll or AFK or bad MM more than some other killer. All things equal and he is still ahead.
Also they said they don't count DC's.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704333#Comment_1704333
What do you mean?
I already said I played Pig at red ranks and talked about her powers and add-ons in a previous post.
To which I say your arguments are incredibly weak and poorly thought out. I actually go into great detail. Not to mention I have a second set of charts to further support my claims. You also never made this claim previously, whereas I could go back and show you where I said Freddy is too strong before last week.
Again I came to the conclusions that Freddy was too strong on my own. My very consistent experience as/against him and then 2 sets of data is a lot more valid than your clearly facetious post.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704326#Comment_1704326
Disagree. One can certainly make arguments over whether a character is balanced or not using evidence. The charts being presented are simply poor evidence and don't really help the point being made, regardless of what that point may be.
"Poor evidence" because the devs said "don't draw conclusions from the chart"? No sorry, the conclusions weren't drawn from the chart, the chart merely supports what I said.
If I said "Nurse is really hard to play, and the chart supports this" would that still be wrong?
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@Nazeef13 said:
Freddy is overpowered in the current state of the game. When the devs say don't draw conclusions, it is because there is more than just "freddy power op" that makes freddy op. In the current state of the game, yes freddy is very overpowered.
Gamesense theory:
In this case, there is an interaction of map design as a moderator of the relationship between freddy's power and kill rate. Freddy already has a strong teleport power in this game. Nothing game breaking, but any changes that slow the game down, would be a 1 to 1 buff for normal killers, but a 1 to 2 buff for freddy due to his teleport to objective and synergy with slow down. In the current state of the game, slow down perks are meta, and that means freddy become 2 fold as strong with his synergy.
Then come the second aspect of his powers, the snares. These are intended to help cut down chase times. However they work by forcing pallets to get thrown down early (kill rate is now resource dependent), canceling fast vaults, so now preventing repeat use of pallet-less loops (survivor map-knowledge), and slowing survivors down to prevent them from getting to the next loop (distance dependent).
So map design changes that would normally buff killers 1 to 1, now buff freddy 1 to 4. 4 times as much.
In the current state of the game with the direction devs have been going with map design, we see:
-pallet loops being less safe (4x buff for freddy),
- # of pallets being reduced (4x buff for freddy),
-smaller maps with fewer tiles, but tiles being spaced farther apart to prevent chaining loops (4x buff for freddy),
-main building loops being nerfed (4x buff for freddy).
His power is over loaded, with minimal cost:
Pretty much his teleport/mobility/slowdown is a better version of demogorgon's with a quarter of the cost/risk (while he has a cool down, freddy doesn't have the finite resource, time to put down a tp, & survivor counterplay to cancel a tp that demogrogon has to account for).
His chase/snare powers are a way way way better version of clown (no slowdown, no reload, no aiming, stays down as a trap for planning instead of temporary, no los needed.) And comparatively, clown has no mobility slow down. Maybe the devs thought they could counter balance it with snares not being used while awake but the timer is so short that you'll most likely be asleep by the time you are in chase, the cost is pretty much entirely mitigated.
On top of this already overloaded, low cost high reward base kit, he also gets the bonuses that come along with the sleep mechanic that decrease survivability (no tr, no directionality, in-and-out phasing, no bt, more slowdown).
I'm gonna go make some alt accounts to vote this up some more.
Mods I'm joking don't ban me.
@Raccoon said:
Still can't believe that no one is talking about Pig's 2.88% pick rate in correlation to her HUGE 62.09% (!!!) kill rate!
Still can't believe you strawman this hard and still can't make an actual argument.
Also where is the other evidence to support your claim? You have none? Yea that's what the devs talk about when they say "don't draw conclusions from the chart." My conclusions were not drawn from the chart, the chart merely supports my conclusions.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704269#Comment_1704269
No because they've said the exact same thing about the previous data for the same reason. Unreliable data matching up with previous unreliable data doesn't suddenly make both sets of data reliable.
I keep replying arguing about the same thing because you (and others) keep contesting the one thing that I take issue with. The fact that several people agree with you doesn't mean any more than the fact that several people agree with me.
The chart is not reliable data. I don't need to believe Freddy is strong, weak, balanced, or anything in between those things to believe that.
Again unreliable data is not the same as incomplete data. There is nothing unreliable about these charts, you just can't draw a conclusion EXCLUSIVELY from them is what the devs are saying. However if previous data lines up as does my experience then that should be enough to convince a reasonable person that Freddy is too strong.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704239#Comment_1704239
"Yes you are."
...no, I'm not. The reason I am not addressing your other arguments is that I don't take issue with your other arguments. Literally the only thing I take issue with is you going "See, the chart confirms I am right." The reason I keep bringing it up is that you are pushing back against that point specifically.
What if I told you that I am not against the notion that Freddy is too strong? What does that change as far as this argument I am having?
"Literally the only thing I take issue with is you going "See, the chart confirms I am right." The reason I keep bringing it up is that you are pushing back against that point specifically."
The fact that it is consistent as it is WITH PREVIOUS DATA means that yes, it does confirm something. Couple with my experience and my points then it is very clear that the charts suggest something, that something being "Freddy is too strong".
You are fighting back to derail the thread and nothing else. Don't sit there and tell me otherwise there is literally no reason for you to reply as much as you do repeating the same statement that several of us now have pointed out is just flat out wrong.
No reasonable person would sit here and say "yea I agree with you but that chart means nothing".
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704188#Comment_1704188
That's not strawmanning. I'm not using the chart bit to argue that your overall points regarding Freddy are wrong. I am saying the chart bit is not good evidence and that's it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704199#Comment_1704199
Just off the top of my head, Dc rates, perk builds, add-on usage, SWF, offerings, maps.
"I'm not using the chart bit to argue that your overall points regarding Freddy are wrong."
Yes you are. You continuously default to this and have not ONCE actually addressed my argument. The fact you keep replying to me or anyone that challenges your false interpretation of the dev's statement just further demonstrates that. Saying it once would have been enough, but you keep bringing it up, despite me or anyone else pointing out that hey, actually there is something to this data as is correlates strongly with previous data, that should at least be enough for the devs to say to themselves "we should investigate this further".
"Just off the top of my head, Dc rates, perk builds, add-on usage, SWF, offerings, maps."
DC rates - First I think that DC's weren't included, IIRC they said that about previous charts, but even if it was that would just suggest there is a problem with the killer because lots of people don't want to play against them.
Perk builds - Irrelevant as we can assume this for other killers yet Freddy is still ahead by a sizeable margin. Plus when we DO consider perk builds, Freddy literally has one of the most oppressive builds in the game via Ruin, Undying, Thana, Sloppy, Swing Chains, and Jump Rope (which you don't even need all that to make it work you can swap out some stuff too).
Add-on usage - Again irrelevant but that's because the only add-ons worth using on Freddy are chains/ropes and paint brush. I bet if we looked at add-on usage for Freddy those add-ons would be clear and above all the others combined. I am positive of this.
SWF - Already said how a 4 man SWF is more broken than Freddy, literally no killer can compete against this. But if we just assume for a moment that all killers have equal numbers of SWF games then Freddy is still ahead.
Offerings - Again I remember them saying mori's didn't count this was just sacc's, but I could be wrong. Despite that, the only offerings that affect the game are mori's and maps.
Maps - Irrelevant because we are looking at an average.
We want to look at the WHOLE. Anyone can point to a super specific setup and say anything they want. "Wraith on Lery's with Ruin, Noed, silent bell, aura read while invis, Undying, and Sloppy is OP against solo players using adept perks." That's literally your argument right now. We can't look at specific types of games we have to look at the whole, and as such the chart is actually the best representation of the average Freddy performance. If his average performance is clearly above all other killers for 2 data dumps in a row, you seriously don't see anything wrong with that? Really? You are going to sit there and tell me that means nothing while saying that this exact specific setup does? It is illogical.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704149#Comment_1704149
I told you a different way of looking at the stats, where you cannot read "freddy" is op and doing so would be silly.
but yeah...just keep living in this universe where people aren't giving you perfectly reasonable reasons as to why the stats are unreliable at best. totally not disingenuous of you
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason, especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy. THAT IS THE RED FLAG. My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts. You claim I am doing that when I am not. That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart. Not once do either of you actually address my points or try to refute the evidence other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1704149#Comment_1704149
It kinda does, though. I'm not strawmanning at all because I am telling you what the devs are saying, and you are kinda just ignoring it. I'm not presenting a tangential argument and using that to refute your primary claim.
You are strawmaning because you are focusing entirely on my presentation of a chart despite the fact I barely reference it in my points. Like continuously even when me or others have pointed out that "do not draw conclusions" is different than "the charts are meaningless". They are in a vacuum. They aren't when coupled with previous data and other evidence.
The mere fact you have been saying the same tired nonsense for 7 pages now without EVER actually talking about the topic just proves your goal is to strawman and derail the topic. IDGAF what the devs said, these charts have meaning when you can see a very clear pattern with Freddy (highest kill rate by a significant margin for all ranks AND red ranks previously).
Stop trying to derail the thread maybe actually address my arguments. You know full well what you are trying to do, and you keep repeating yourself as if that will make you right and completely negate my entire argument. News flash... it doesn't.
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I really don't like how tall the normal grass is on the redone maps. Yamaoka, Badham, and now Macmil all have this grass that is so tall you can't see through it while crouching as Pig or GF, and it's really hard to see scratches or blood.
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Killer is unplayable on Xbox currently. The game is so screwed up it's impossible to be consistent. Everything causes a frame drop. Notifications. Perk activations. Effect activations. Opening chests. Using your power. Bloodlust. It's awful right now. I feel like I'm playing a stop motion game sometimes.