tes
tes
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Unfortunately, I think most of the players who do like this are consciously farming using their teammates
But yes, people need to be aware how to properly rescue teammates
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Huntress is my queen, Phead is my king
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Performance fine for me (stable 90 fps possible, yet personal preference keeping me 30 fps on killer and 60 on survivor) yet some glitchs with character twitching on place and sudden packaging loss still a thing. Sometimes character can slow down for this reason
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If devs able to clarify, do they mean DC doesn’t tracked for stats and anything else, or they not used for tracking MMR only in such context?
DC affecting on grades loses but not on… what exactly? It’s not clear. Because according to dbd official stats, I dced few times because of the cheaters and it affected my killrate.
Yet I noticed weird bug that after disconnect sometimes survivor’s bots are marked as escaped and get unusual double of point, despite bot being sacrificed in game. No matter am I playing killer/survivor. I played sfws month ago, still remember how my friend made a joke that my bot escaped despite being dead and went first to the line by having 50 k points. I was kicked because of internet issues on first minutes of the game.
Idk how to catch their attention to clarify such stuff. Yet that fact it at least can allow players to keep staying on MMR they actually don’t belong to or even distort of stats at max makes it really bad.
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Meg because my friend advised sprint burst and adrenaline
Cheryl because I love Silent Hill
Rebecca because I appreciate her personality from Resident Evil franchise and she often remains in the shadow of the same Jill. And her cowgirl outfit is really stealthy and good :₽ If not loud cries I would find her the most perfect survivor for me.
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@dramafinesseXD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016755#Comment_4016755
what you’re describing is winning 50s the ghouls mobility isn’t the issue the cheesy vault is
Without the vault ghoul would actually take skill that’s my whole issue with overtuned vault built into a kit
How you wish to talk, I never personally struggled. It’s not 50/50 when you realise killer is in power and can’t even use m1
Fast mobility and free hit scan with deep wound is less issue? Well maybe yes, if survivor initially struggles in gen efficiency. For fast play matches it’s literally the free slowdown and pressure that ruines play
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@Milkymalk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016097#Comment_4016097
WDYM? Survivors farm it by doing gens. It can't get more passive than that.
If "simple attention" can counter the crystals, you aren't using them right. Of course, if you use them for running away while you are injured and wonder why the killer is still following you, that's just not helping there. But use it to make them miss that ONE important swing to get out, and it's gold.
Playing both killer and survivor showed me it’s much faster to farm haunt and use void on killer. Void is useless for survivor and rather punishing than beneficial, so more people gen rush on even. It is what happens when you make element of event extremely unattractive for one side only.
I used cristals for winning 50/50, but it’s just random things and doesn’t have any consistency. Good killers know how to outplay this. Same was with old fog vials, you staying out of fog and wait for survivor to show up rather than blindly swing. So survivors is either forced to drop pallet or sth, or go out of fog while me barely lost distance. At least I always played like this and wasn’t troubled on killer
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@dramafinesseXD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015718#Comment_4015718
Buddy you just aren’t playing against good kanekis if camping a pallet works every time it is genuinely a 50 and a boring one at that
Yes I know the counterplay but it’s boring and cheese considering the rest of Ghouls kit wesker is way worse than ghoul and his vault is useless
Also you can’t really call winning a 50 counterplay because that’s what it is lmao
I didn’t say you have to camp a pallet, I said you have to greed if see the power is active and catch timings. I literally compared him to killers where camping pallet is a worse tactic ever.
The arguement “You just haven’t seen good ghoul”. Bruh. This killer don’t have high skill ceiling. This argument can be applied to your way of play as well, just be a good survivor
I wish Ghoul to change but his vaults is the last thing I found cheese on him. His cheese in mobility, 6 perks build thanks to stupid addons and deep wound. Thats what people actually can’t counter a lot
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@glamourousfoxx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016672#Comment_4016672
I'm on PS4 so I don't really know the difference between the servers. I just press the play game button and go. Also not sure what ladder is? Also thank you for the tips I really appreciate it I will try to do what I understand 💜
Ladder and Ranked servers are existing on Discord. One called DBD League. If I’m not wrong some content creators also advertised other servers, more chill one through You Tube, so you wellcome to start with this, people way less competitive their on beginning level. At least I’ve seen it from Hens and maybe SpookyLoops(z, sorry, forgot his name spell.) Tho I’m not sure about console players. I think it’s possible as soon as you can use Discord at the same time. You also have option to focus on survivors solely and don’t play killer for sfw match. For ladder you are practicing both sides
If it’s not your answer, you can go through more difficult way, trying limited perks or always looking for chases first. TBH I’m kinda bad with flashlight myself still, my style is rather looping or playing through macro. Bet you can find your comfortable style as well -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016642#Comment_4016642
I didn’t say here tunneling is a mechanic.
I didn't say you said tunnelling is a mechanic, I said you argued that it's a direct product of mechanics.
We don’t have pro tunnel mechanics
That's debatable. It can reasonably be argued that if the entire game is set up to funnel players into tunnelling, as you claim, then one can argue that these mechanics that do so are 'pro tunnel mechanics'.
assymetry is not a mechanic.
No, but it's comprised of mechanics. Mechanics that you claim directly funnel people into tunnelling.
Tunneling is people behaviour, not mechanic
I agree. But that's also why I don't think you can argue that anti-tunnel can never be balanced, since correcting behaviour can be done in ways that don't affect balance. I'm pretty sure we've seen this with old BBQ & Chili and WGLF, both of which rewarded substantial BP bonuses based on certain actions taken. Stripping them of the BP bonus did not affect balance, but it did affect behaviour.
Anti tunneling isn’t building gameplay around it, it’s ignoring why it happens and solely focusing on removing it from the game.
How is it ignoring 'why it happens'?
If the mechanics that comprise the asymmetrical nature of DBD are the reason tunnelling happens, then surely, adjusting those mechanisms is addressing the reason why it happens?
Mechanics that you claim directly funnel people into tunnelling.
No. Read 11th time again. Assymetry of the genre encourages tunneling as meta. And assymetry is not a mechanic. It’s not supported by mechanic. It’s not compromised by mechanics either, it’s compromised by format. You don’t even understand what actually word mechanic means, basically. Because at first tried to relate my speech of assymetry with mechanic.
Somehow that format of the game causing specific behaviour is bad for you, yet slapping additional mechanic without fixing the asymmetrical pressure that creates the incentive is something you find reasonable.
At that point, you’re not arguing about the truth of the system, just the scope of intervention. You are just playing with words again. Think what suits you, but I wouldn’t even count such words worthy to discuss anymore.
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@glamourousfoxx said:
I know the short answer here is "just get good" but I'm serious here. I'm not necessarily a baby, I've been playing for a little over a year now, but I used to only play it with my friends and, well, they don't want to play it with me very often anymore. The problem is now I think I'm screwed?
I can't loop for crap, I can't use a flashlight, and anytime I try either, I'm down in like 0.2 seconds and then I'm tunnelled out probably cause the killer knows I'm an easy target. But how am I supposed to get better when I can't actually practice?
You can’t really practice in pub games for it because your teammates usually don't allow it. You can go to ranked servers or just a dbd server itself to find people for sfw to practice it
Playing without perks helped me learn more about looping and positioning. Playing only with windows opportunity or dejavu for long period of time helped me to learn logic of spawn. The best thing that improved my skill was playing at late evening and after midnight where you would more likely meet players who really spend a lot of time on it. And ladder. Ladder is the actual way to learn looping and I find it entertaining even. Chases is the most interesting thing in this game and ladder is only about this. Just don't feel embarrassed loosing a lot from the start
I also always tried to be the first chase for killer before. If you’ll start to notice more killers are started to drop chases you are on a right way.
Good luck and patience for improving
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016611#Comment_4016611
it’s in psychology when u play alone against team. Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”
I didn’t say here tunneling is a mechanic. I just said that assymetrical attract people to playin specific way. We don’t have pro tunnel mechanics
Because it’ s logical
It's literally my argument here. Just stop playing for words and finally learn to look at context.
A mechanic is a specific rule or system of interactionTunneling is a format of play players choose
If tunnelling was a mechanic in this game, it worked like perks or what we’ve seen in ptb.
If you still struggling to understand my point because loves to imply on my reading and writing comprehension, because Eglish is’t my native language, here some basics of GD that you struggling to understand so much. Because it's soulless machine explanation, you barely can complain on some wrong writing or comprehension
Read other my messages 10 times if you struggling to understand context.
Edit: assymetry is not a mechanic. It's a format. PvP isn't’ mechanic, it’s a genre. Tunneling is people behaviour, not mechanic. Considering that all of this exist and creating mechanics around it what I’m focusing on. Anti tunneling isn’t building gameplay around it, it’s ignoring why it happens and solely focusing on removing it from the game. Yet removing people’s behaviour that was caused by core format of game is just playing along with tribalism and admitting one side “frustration” prevalence. Removing a player-driven strategy that compensates for structural asymmetry. Keep it in mind
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016457#Comment_4016457
I find it funny they even gave myers a big tr just cus of evil incarnate. He is not a mobility killer, and the devs stated in the past that that tr size is exclusive to killers that have mobility in their powers. So wth? Why is an already horrible killer giving so much reaction time? Why isn't he that stealthy anymore?
Wesker and him having high TR is a funny thing
Honestly, it doesn’t work for survivors either. With Wesker at least - this killer requires attention to mid range in chases. 40 TR confuses me more for directions rather than helped against this killer.
Listening TR for positioning becoming more difficult, while prerunning against killer with av mobility making it even more busted. And I don’t really enjoy playing through constant radical prerun against killer whose dash design actually enjoying to play against for me. He is high skill ceiling character, it’s like looping Billy if you are both on average level. Funny… And even Billy having TR with 32 m even if insta down is possible on him
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016472#Comment_4016472
But why ignoring their difference? One thing was added through mechanics in game. Other thing is how people play.
Can't really argue that difference when you, yourself, argued that the way people play is the immediate product of mechanics in game.
Where?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016551#Comment_4016551
Is this supposed to be a gotcha? Do you think I'm not aware that you can see what I say? And do you think these little quips define my views? It's not a real discussion, it's just bs. I told you privately and I'll say it again for the 5 people reading this: I'm rarely serious. My tone is sarcastic, hyperbolic, and exaggerated. I don't take a single thing on the internet seriously. Did you catch the gore post awhile back? I made snarky remarks about that too and it was dead people pictures. Nothing is serious to me (but in the darkest most nihilistic way possible) and you're too literal and stoic to catch it. Believe me or don't. You can dislike me and think I'm a hypocrite or crybaby whatever. I don't have any problem with you. But we're different in probably a lot more ways than just our views on gaming and we're not likely to connect, and that's fine.
Sorry, but again — it’s a huge difference between saying you don’t really care, and from day to day post stuff with same sentiment about some people doing x game. Claiming you are unserious and then behaving opposite way have differences.
I made snarky remarks about that too and it was dead people pictures.
It was SUCH unnecessary detail about your personality that simply doesn’t make your words look better if not even worse.
If in your reality person who really “don’t care” writes me such long posts in this thread just to try to explain his position, and then continues to write the same type of stuff where he hates that some part of people ruined game for so long period of time, I barely would believe it in this. Saying you're not serious when you make comments like this doesn't paint your position in a good light, it only makes it ugly idk…
I bet you would speak completely different if some person on this forum would mirror your behaviour and targetting casual players. Especially when you make it under orher people posts making it either off topic (just to unnecessary pushing your itch in comment), or when making it under posts where OP is usually pretty serious, because well, people going on forums for expressing concerns and feeling about sth. And here you are “unserious” man calling someone cringe and buzzkillers.
I don't understand why your comments stop portraying you as someone who can't stand a certain group of players just because you're now trying to cover it up with your unserious attitude. It's like everything has gotten a hundred times worse to me if you're so flippant about the game and still manage to talk about certain people like that just because :/ It either real oblivious happening here, or “I don’t care” become an argument to step back just to pretend words you are writing not showing you in a way that doesn’t benefit to the discussion for your side.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016472#Comment_4016472
You're either manipulating what I'm saying or you're not understanding it fully. I don't have all these strong emotions and aggravations about things that you keep saying I do. I don't take this or any game seriously enough to. I don't care about comp players. I don't care about Nurse. I just want the game to revolve around the majority players' gameplay, which is probably the mid two tiers of MMR. Am I one of them? Probably, yeah, along with what is likely the vast majority of players. But if it's a pointless discussion than so be it. That is that.
Because gameplay evolve around casual players Ghoul and Krasue appeared. No, don’t even ask me to support such vision of the game. I would never appreciate it because it’s always people asking “balance around lower tiers” on one side only.
If it didn’t touch you, you never would defend such position. Many of your posts that I've seen literally had the direct speech of "try hards cringe," "sweats ruined event," "sweats spoiled that”. Context shows that you actually care A LOT about competitive people. Because you often try to oppose yourself to them. Maybe you simply don't realize how months of reading some of your posts on this forum changed the whole context about perceiving your claims for me.
Hating going against some character just because of the way how people play doesn’t correlate with your words that it’s not bothering you. I doubt you can convince me otherwise simply by saying "no it isn't". I’m pretty sure you even can’t realise how this look from perspective of person less chill than you.
Stop expecting win or fun against player who doesn’t handicap themselves by chill behaviour is actually showing that other way of play doesn’t bother person. They will dominate, it doesn’t provide you an excuse to ask for free tools.
If person doesn’t match my vibe, I don’t go to forum to tell about that and how they spoil x thing by their attitude. I thought “I don’t care” usually work like this. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016248#Comment_4016248
The hook states mention isn't about you specifically, it's a general example. My point is that a very handoldy buff quietly comes to killler--one that was clearly meant to be part of the anti-tunnel--and the killers just rub their greedy hands together. There was even a thread where people brushed it off like it was nothing, some even saying it helps them two-hook without killing (or thinking) which I think is mostly bs. It's yet another killer info advantage with survivors getting nothing similar. In a year, the idea that it wasn't there this whole time will be shocking to people, just like basekit BT. Just like anything they add in. It'd be the same for basekit DS or Kindred or self-recovery. For all the moaning we all do, anything they push through will likely be accepted with time but will immedialty be cried about as handholdy. As for adapting, how many posts do we currently have where killers are weeping about pallets? Yet the calls for adaptation are rather quiet. Adapting only seems to be expected of survivors.
But what is and isn't handholdy? Iri add-ons? Endurance and exhaustion perks? Exposed and aura perks? Bloodlust? The whole damn game is handholdy. I can't tell you how often I've won killer matches because of perks, and I'm not running meta. Survivor, not so much. That's more small, immediate advantages, at least for me.
It actually seems like the consensus amongst most people is that the game needs a whole big overhaul, particularly in regards to individual killers, but this is extremely difficult and I think people are willing to settle for anything since they probably won't get that.
That argument literally exists because they were able to provide a more pure study—when people share the same skill. And that arguments should be built on that
I don't think these people are a good reflection of anything though. Even if the skill is even, they're too high-performing. If BHVR wants this data, they need to host lab rat matches with average-performing survivors that arent on comms and killers who rely on tunneling and give them a set of rules to try out. That would be a more logical data pool for the masses. The idea is to find out what happens amongst normal players with restrictions in place. The ptb did a bad job at that.
The hook states mention isn't about you specifically, it's a general example. My point is that a very handoldy buff quietly comes to killler--one that was clearly meant to be part of the anti-tunnel--and the killers just rub their greedy hands together
Why using this arguement in our convo anyway? Do I support this? No. What’s it makes with my words or how it gives more weight to anti tunnel proposal? It’s just even more support my position about tag war and that people fight over it rather than actual balancing, and that it should stop.
I don't think these people are a good reflection of anything though. Even if the skill is even, they're too high-performing
To shut down this high performing they playing with heavy restrictions that you would never see in ordinary match. It’s not about what BHVR looking at. It’s about should balance look like this. It’s about what it shows. It shows you can’t play without tunnel on high level. In their matches you actually can see how balancing work.
So looking from your own perspective. Should highly difficult mechanics killers be removed only because they aren’t for casuals? Can you do this? Can you delete nurse? Can you delete SFW in this game? Spread up, gen efficiency? Everything that usualy defines highly effective play? This game stopped being party game as soon as Nurse arrived and first comp appeared . Do you like it or not, it’s a fact. What makes tunneling so special that “you shouldn’t orient on what high play needs/use”, but as soon as something else that benefiting survivors on high play you don’t ask for it to be removed at the same time? Like sfw… oh yeah, maybe because you are playing sfw yourself. Just don’t use its actual advantage most of the time. But why people have to handicap themselves as much as you do? Just because? Why me not handicapping other players on this forum demanding playing without meta or on simple killers?
People should stop complaining on high perforimg play. It always be people simply better in this game and do you like it or not, they know this game better than you. It’s fine to complain on gap between players and asking to make it less evident. It’s not fine doing it through enforcing handicapping and constant shaming . You can adjust initial mechanics only, but touching way of play - it’s not a nice way and pure tribalism and personal hate. And that thing that u put some imaginitive numbers of 5% of survivors being on top cap just shows how you want to highlight that your opinion suddenly should matter more just because in advance.
It’s not sweats ruined your matches. It’s either you can’t adapt to them and demanding them to change instead, either matchmaking being bad, if you like this “adaptation” arguement so much. Or two stuff at the same time. How antitunnel deal with it? Yet again… Doesn’t . Just additional figure to this equation.
But what is and isn't handholdy? Iri add-ons? Endurance and exhaustion perks? Exposed and aura perks? Bloodlust? The whole damn game is handholdy. I can't tell you how often I've won killer matches because of perks, and I'm not running meta. Survivor, not so much. That's more small, immediate advantages, at least for me.
Handholding is when you expecting game dealing with sweats through mechanics by artificially restricting them and not adjusting your tools. It’s by always relying on items and strong tiers . Handholding is playing Ghoul and expecting hight rates just because he is simple and strong , if you want more precise example.
Handholding is wanting/choosing something and expecting it’ll deal with what you want. Making tunneling unattractive or less effective not through the play, but just… because. Handholding is expecting try hards to get easy on you just because you play game differently and blaming them in the way how they play, expecting game deal with your frustration by restricting other side or even punishing.
And again. Do anti tunnel deal with stuff that considered op/handholding? S tiers? Flaws in balances? Do anti tunnel dealing with anything beside tunneling being frustrating? It’s like asking for Ghoul to stay as it is because it’s harder to play on Nurse and Blight for you, but you want something close to their effectiveness. Yes, it’s less frustrating to deal with necessity of improving in micro/macro, to outplay opponents . You don’t need to deal with busted items or serious sfws that much as others, yet mechanically it stays as simple as some Ghostface or Wraith. Does it make Ghoul less braindead or about balancing? No. It’s initial mechanic.
Adapting only seems to be expected of survivors.
This thread already showed that many players expecting this from killers when themselves barely adapting. To what additional thing survivors had to adapt? Where I messaged here: you have to adapt to Ghoul concept, ha ha? You have to adapt to Haddonfield, ha ha ? No, I didn’t say you have to adapt to x thing that is mechanic in this game. Because such stuff is actually discussable. Again, why you ignoring my statement both sides have to adapt and as example push initial game mechanic when I was discussing a way how people play in the context?
Do you really want to argue with pallet density adaptation? Why again, we compare initial system with way how people play? Why we compare pallet density and tunneling? Because they both bring benefits? But why ignoring their difference? One thing was added through mechanics in game. Other thing is how people play. Maybe it works in your reality where try hards is your biggest issue only because of the way how they play, but I make difference between something like pallets being here by default and tunneling becoming a decision committing to it or not…
Like…. That’s the core principle of handholding issue… when you expect adaptaion happening through mechanics. It’s a big difference giving base kit Kindred and base kit DS. First thing gives opportunity to utilise resources- when and who and how rescuing. It doesn’t adapt survivors with concept of rescuing through handholding. It provides them opportunity to manage time. They can fail with it through wrong decisions. Second thing just providing additional resource for free. You can’t fail with using base kit DS through wrong decisions. It’s always be right use despite you even understanding why it’s here and how it works.
Edit: Honestly, I'm tired of repeating the same things. It literally all comes down to one argument. The anti-tunnel is still just a desire for us versus them, and it doesn't solve the problem beyond a tug-of-war. If you think otherwise, so be it. If it suits you, you're absolutely right. I don't have the resources to repeat the same things to the local forum residents, who seem to live in a bubble of perpetual tribalism but try to deny it and present their opinions as the voice of the community and cold, hard facts. Whenever the next fact always boils down to "But x side y thing and this is unfair, so I need z unfair thing to push unfair advantage to my side." It's probably cool to demand other players play the same way you do, just because. Not because you actually play better/use effective play/ trying. Just… just play like me… just because… blah blah, you are try hard and spoiled my casual mood, how dare you not treating game as same as me... I don't need this attitude or treatment… honestly. If I was casually playing and some sweat without personal life went to my match, I would rather blame matchmaking instead of going and crying on forum how evil this people are and that some BHVR police should put them in jail and reinforce new law… Stop expecting win against player who doesn’t handicap themselves by chill behaviour made my life ten times easier when I started to play online games.
So again: if you wish to hear this words, you are 100 times right. I would prefer to play game itself or focus on game rather than player behaviour discussion, because all this thread gave me realisation it never worthy my time. Not my interest
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Even if I agree dc should stop and it ruins games for others, I don't appreciate loud titles with X side ruins the game. Comments under this post just proving people just ready focus on this rather than actual context.
Can we just get rid of “X side ruined game experience”? It's vulgar. -
What about answering on post where you complained people can’t adapt to anti-tunnel at first instead of Interrupting into a dialogue with another person? Well, that's it, first of all.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016144#Comment_4016144
Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes.
No, it's not.
Not when it's a decision the killer can make in the lobby. And that's the tunneling that people complain about.
This isn't "I got lucky and found you later", this is "I'm conditioned to go immediately back to hook when the notification tells me to and chase the person to death".
It is not a mistake to be found first. Period.
And you can't claim that it's a "weak link" because you have only chased the first person you found. It's mainly RNG at the start of the match who that is. Even if the killer chooses that person in the lobby.
And you recognize this:
You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake.
Yes, if you have a survivor that can maybe survive long enough, which involves a host of factors including RNG because of maps, killer kits, matchmaking, and teammates. And you can drop chase, but here's the thing...
All roads lead to tunneling being the "correct" decision:
If the first chase is short, "oh good, I can get this survivor out of the game easily. I'm going to tunnel".
If the first chase wasn't short: "in too invested in this survivor and need a comeback. I'm going to tunnel".
And it stops being a strategy if there's no chance the player is going to change tactics. If everything leads to tunneling, and for many it does, then there's nothing that the other team can do to change that.
"Strategy" as a concept heavily implies that you can change that strategy based on outside factors. In DbD that might be map choice, or mainly, how your opponent plays.
And for survivors this does happen: you can plan to gen rush, but if the killer chases you, you have to switch to evading. For killers who tunnel excessively, they can choose to tunnel every single match and survivors have nothing they can do to change that.
And that is the problem. One person doesn't get a chance to play the will rounded survivor experience that should include things like gen repair, rescue, healing/recovery, as well as killer interactions like chase.
And that's because there's no limit to tunneling. No restriction, no downside. And for a lot of people, the only result is boosting their MMR leading to MMR and other balance complaints, simply because they're in over their head.
Those limits are what people are asking for. Those limits are absolutely necessary for game health at this point.
And for survivors this does happen: you can
planTo gen rush, but if the killer chases you, you have to switch to evading. For killers who tunnel excessively, they can choose to tunnel every single match and survivors have nothing they can do to change that.
You are deliberately playing with words.
Survivors are 4 people in a match.
If the killer tunnelling excessively, sicking to the same strategy doesn't stop it from being a strategy.
But there's no point in lying about “ have nothing they can do to change that”.
I play alone, and I do things myself. I've had countless games where I helped my teammates enough that the killers gave up and switched to me.Or when tunneling happening so late, killer lost the game. I've had countless games where, on the last gen, the killer was forced to give up tunneling and started trying to pressure map.
For this, If you don't give the killer the opportunity to tunnel for free at the beginning of the game and present the killer with a fait accomplish. Killer either proxy camp and tunnel, so survivors have free gens for killer to pressure less, or they have to distract themselves from the hook, which will buy more time for the survivors for safer rescue. They can't prevent tunneling because it's someone else's strategy. Like out playing strategy is not canceling it, it lowering their effectiveness. The killer also can't prevent gen rush as a concept: they can only react to it. Killer can’t chase 4 people simultaneously to prevent gen progress, it’s just what you want to present as the truth, because, like the developers, you continue to see the survivors in a pure vacuum and not as a group that is initially superior in numbers.
If rebuilding to your style of words.
Killer can plan to tunnel, but if gen efficiency or chases timer overcomes it, killer have to switch to map pressure. If they won't do it, they will lose (until other side would do some mistakes). It's as same as if survivor stubbornly sticks to the generator—he can repair it before dying, but any real progress will lead to defeat, if it was unnecessary trade of life. Same with killers. You might get one kill, but then, if the survivors played carefully and correctly, your chances of winning are minimal. The tunnel is not capable of pausing the game or the other side's progress, so saying that the survivors are unable to do anything is either your own unwillingness to adapt which you like to blame everyone for, or a deliberate lie.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016144#Comment_4016144
Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes.
Earlier, you claimed it's just the logical conclusion from the way the game's built, not the product of 'mistakes'.
This doesn't contradict each other. You are consciously deciding capitalizing mistakes, because you see them.
If a tunnel occurs, control of the situation is in the hands of both the killer and the survivor. If they make a mistake, like they'll be left healing under the hook, go into the dead zone, teammates will react poorly, then the tunnel will be that very evil and uncounterable tactic. But it's survivor mistake to provide easy tunneling.Without such mistakes, the survivor becomes less vulnerable, and the killer wastes more time. This isn't a question of RGN. It's a question of whether you can accept the fact that if this happens, you need to play around this. And not hope for randomness or that this situation won't happen at all. The ease of tunneling isn't determined solely by the killer in the match. Survivor also defines how easy it's gonna be, or would it happen even.
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Imagine survivor/killer playing against 40 killers, hundreds of possible combination of perks, where they are barely informed about what tricks players on them actually can pull of. You can easily burn out in this game without heavily dedicating to both roles at the same time or watching educational content.
It's not really hard to learn on its own and micro gameplay in this game don’t require fantastic skills. But it creates a gap between people who get access to knowledge and who is not.
I also will assume Japanese sources lack of guides. I’m also International person, and 80% of what I learned was from English guides. Because deep micro guidelines isn’t presented in Russian community well or suffer with quality. More niche regions just prefer to adress to already existing English guidance, but some people.. They don't know English well enough. So they literally deprived of access to tutorials.
Players need codex right in the game.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016094#Comment_4016094
If people actually had influence on me, than I had to stop to play long time ago (which didn't happen), so it's another attempt presenting wishful thinking as reality.
Influence doesn't mean you'll quit. My friends have influence on me because we're like-minded. This will be the case for most people. You can say it's not for you, but let's just say I'm doubtful of that.
You're arguing against emotional responses but you're showing me screenshots of people's quick responses to it as an example of their caliber. That's pure emotion, and with no context. I get mean messages all the time, whether I win or lose. I have no screenshots to show you because I'm not nearly as emotional as you think I am, and I don't care about these short, out-of-context, heated comments. They're not real discussions. They tell me nothing. Someone might call you a baby killer when they normally wouldn't have said anything because they lost the last 10 matches and they're fed up. Someone might say gg even if they hated you because they won the last 10 matches and don't mind the loss. There's zero nuance to end game messages. The only post-game things I ever say are friendly. Doesn't mean I'm a happy ray of sunshine. It means I'm mature enough to keep my negative feelings to myself. You can use forum convos as examples because they're lengthy, have context, and paint a full picture. The only conversations I take to heart are the real, long, in-depth ones, not randoms saying "you suck" and that's all. If I did, I too would have a bad feeling about the playerbase. I've seen so many people in this forum cry about end game chat and show how much it bothers them and I think that's pathetic. It clearly effects them. My skin isnt that thin. Have real conversations. Stop caring about these tiny messages. The bigger picture is all that matters. Even anxiety about tbagging at gates has been used as an excuse for overly aggressive playing. "I wouldn't slug everyone at end game but I hate being taunted at gates." Talk about emotional. But we're also not robots. Games feed into emotions. You can't slice it out with a scalpel. It's part of the experience and must be accounted for.
But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunneling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killler I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponenets. The power balance is off because of this tactic.
But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunnelling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killer I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponents. The power balance is off because of this tactic.
But is it actually so? Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes. Solo Q just tends to make mistakes more and they are less forgiving. And it’s how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't mean they deserve handholding and turn of their mistakes as punishment for killer if they decide to capitalize it.
It doesn't mean every game should evolve around high play. And it doesn't in this game. Nothing prevents people from trying out different builds, or meme around. But artificial mechanics like busted S tier, new pallet density heavily backfire and give people tools they don't actually deserve. Mobility on killers forgiving macro mistakes. Spammable power forgets micro mistakes. Genrush perk forgets poor efficiency from the start. 4 chase build forgets the lack of clean movements. But you can genrush and fail because you were too greedy. You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake. So is tunnelling a problem here, or people getting frustrated that the other side can heavily punish for misplay or mistake? And because it's a 1 vs 4 thing, if one survivor made a mistake, everyone has to share responsibility for it.
So it doesn't have a real reason to scrap it from the ground. Anti-tunnel PTB wasn’t about helping QoL. It wasn’t about fixing the issues I mentioned before. Moreover, it gifted haste power creep to killers like Spirit, Clown, Springtrap, providing actually cheesy gameplay, because you don't need to use your brain a lot moving with additional haste, making every first hit free. While for actually poor mobility killers it wasn't enough most of the time. Making base kit DS also does not solve every one of those issues, everything that includes “anti” and provides so much for free as anti-tunnel does it would likely be just a new game mechanic that plays the game instead of the player. Perks and powers are already doing this on a great level, and you are just suggesting adding another layer to this. Its initial mechanics are broken, not the way people play the game. As I have told and will continue to claim, anti-tunnel is an extreme change of meta in tag war and indulging specific sentiment. If it's the initial reason to bypass balancing, then you can’t balance it.
You don't need to be a fantastic player to avoid or try to counterplay stuff like tunnelling. Moreover, you can play in a way that makes tunnelling a desperate move or turns out to be a killer mistake and capitalise on it. You don’t need to have voice chat to play decently in a team. Your team have to consist of the same level and you should have some resemblance to comms and that's enough to cover the majority of cases. I’m literally playing solo Q myself. My movements aren't clear, I don't bring a full meta package, yet nothing prevented me from getting a solid 50% ER which is already above what devs are aiming for the average player. So as much as you can say you can comfortably play without tunnelling, as much as I can say it's not an unmanageable thing.
If a player is extremely casual, they shouldn’t expect average rates. Because SBMM doesn't work in this game and you would likely be put in a place with a more experienced person or some cursed region and busted mechanics hell. Casual players should ask for more opportunities to play casually rather than asking for hand hand-holding mechanism against other players just because they handicap themselves and expect others to do the same.
If top cap players in more sterile conditions like the same skill set, no repetitive perks showing killer can’t function well without tunnelling, then it's true. Do you like it or not, but their showcases have more validity for consideration because they at least try to manage balancing in custom while ordinary matches can’t do this more cleanly. They are providing more cold facts.
Do u wish to balance the game, or balance the game around being broken? It's a huge difference. If you're asking for the last one, I’m not sharing your principle.
When this game has more “sterility” in a play, maybe it would be an opportunity to actually prove that you can balance anti-tunnel PTB around. Right now the only argument is literally:
“But I can play without it”
And I can play with it as a survivor. Wow. So who is right?
“But many people wish for it”
And many people don't. Wow again, who are you gonna prioritise then?
It's impossible to present such argumentation objectively. They are still about emotional sentiment.
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@Milkymalk said:
It also speeds up gen progression because the killer ALSO wants to farm haunts and beat pumpkins. No difference in that regard.
Survivors have less passive ways to farm haunts. It's much easier and faster to collect it on killer, and while some gen kick and simple attention can counter value of cristalls on gens/fog, killer getting much more value from his passive powers. It's basically as same as in last masquerade event. Some “bully” “annoying” potential from survivor passives and whole straight buff for killer.
It's impossible to completely balance around it, but why it can’t actually be neutral territory where both sides showing direct chase skill and can’t rely on their bonuses? To earn even more bonuses later outside the void. At least hindered status that can be applied on survivors for no reason just because of poor RGN was too much
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015899#Comment_4015899
All this really tells me is that what people say (those pesky emotions you don't like) influences your reactions. People being silent doesn't mean they're not tilted. And people expressing anger doesn't mean they're mad all the time. Whatever you see in chat is a small sample and you're not having a full, meaningful convo with these people.
This just reinforces my feeling that the end game chat has way too much influence on how people feel about this game.
So you even have less signals and facts to justify specific changes, but justifies it anyway or trying to do so because in theory people silent and then tilted?
That was my point from the start - you can’t justify changes to the game only pure by emotional demand. Because some people may be silent, or can be too loud. You can’t create actual definitive to speak of actual majority, so if you trying to appellate to some changes, you should stop using arguments about burn out, tilt, emotional feelings. Until you wouldn’t be able to somehow proof actual majority opinion. Which is directly impossible in this game. Everyone experiences burnout one way or another, and for different reasons. You have to bring arguments beside it and argue about their validity. Not to cling to that “but what people feel”. Many people even not realising why exactly they experience specific emotions.
You never know why and what they actually feel. There's no point in playing the hero here and trying to present your desires for change as "the common good," especially when it’s a lack of compromise and you are focused solely on satisfying a very specific sentiment.
If people actually had influence on me, than I had to stop to play long time ago (which didn't happen), so it's another attempt presenting wishful thinking as reality. I understand why you may think like this, but I’m calling straight — no, it is not what I’m actually thinking. And I explained why many times. My point is that I don't listen to loud voices and prefer to value people in the community when they've proven that their position is justified by something other than an inability to emotionally cope with the situation in the game. People with actual experience in this game would likely to be silent not because they tilted only. But just maybe because they realise you can’t build whole sentiment around emotions only. It's potential thing, or potentially not. Nothing really can point on 100% truth.
So Stop. Speaking. For other people. Especially when you complain on some content creator brainwashing. The only thing that actually happening here is you and me defending specific vision of the game. If you want it to defend, bring something else. Not only “people feel so”. My first post under this thread is literally about this. Even if it was addressed to other personal initially. I told this person that focusing only on feedback as arguments is initially bad idea, because it plays along to emotion x emotion fight, rather than actually meaningful discussion. Seems I have to repeat same stuff again.
Stop making it evolve around emotions, because when you do like this, you heavily neglect emotions of others. And you consciously putting other person in unfavourable position, because you are pretty acknowledged that this person can’t argue for emotions. No one can and have right to because it's subjectivity and people can provide different conclusions from same initial. It's ineffective way to develop discussions. It's just a way to validate position when you don’t have other tools.
It's just a straight goal shift here, and I don’t feel any sense in this dialogue anymore. Because this is a return to the same point where my first post here started. And I’m pretty sure, next posts will force to repeat same stuff but in another wrap up from both sides.
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@Milkymalk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015990#Comment_4015990
Because if one survivor is hunted by the killer in the void, there are three more survivors out there doing gens. If two survivors go to the void, and they are NOT broken, the killer had to follow them in order to not have them heal each other without any danger, and to do that he would have to give the rest free reign. Fleeing to the void has to have a downside.
Yes, and I don't deny that void should have downsides. But for both sides. Void also naturally slow downs gen progression because people want to farm cristalls and beat pumpkins. Yet this year this slowdown is so unappealing people prefer to stick to gens, using voids more like a transition between loops
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015979#Comment_4015979
This is assymetrical game. It should be balanced around assymetry. 50% rate should be justified by actual play and not handholding as it was on PTB. Last official stats from devs showed 40/60% average rates. Devs claimed them as what they always wish for their game. Psychology is just a way to explain why it's happening.
While the average is fairly balanced, as it should be, it still does not take the more extreme cases into account, where some players can manage an 80-90% kill-rate. Many of which are inflated to such numbers, because of tunneling.
If we got rid of the tunneling and slugging, then we could have gotten more accurate data on what the TRUE average is.Take out the cheese strats = Get more accurate data on how the actual Kill Rate is sitting at
More accurate data = Easier to buff/nerf certain characters accordingly.So, take out the problematic aspects of the game, then gather data from that point, and finally make adjustments based on the new data gathered. In the end, I think everyone would be happier with the outcome of a truly balanced game, both killer players and survivor players alike.
where some players can manage an 80-90% kill-rate.
But same with survivors. I mean… looking at people I’m acknowledged with or it's their friends.
I have 50/70 proportion as survivor/killer, despite playing solo q and not S tier killer. The proportion of 20% + keeping as same in both cases. And I don’t slug for 4k, and don’t farm my teammates. I don't bring meta every match.
I don’t find reasonable to balance game around extremes. It's like current pallet update that just doubled amount of them. Is it reasonable? In some sense yes, because S tier killers more in demand. Is it actually fair or solve issue of dead zones/disproportionate play? No. In general, pallet density provoked more people to play S tier or sweat, and made general experience worse.
If average rate is what devs were aiming for, then it’s no need in changing fundamentals. I don't deny tunneling need adjustment. Solo need more tools for dealing with it. Showing hook stages for killer was unnecessary from the start. Maybe hiding phase progress so killer wouldn't feel the urgent need to camp until struggle phase will hit, and for doing this they actually should heavily focus on it, less paying attention to other stuff. And S tier killers need to be seriously addressed - they should be have build up power concept instead or having great punishment in some sence, like Nurse suffering from blindness after blink to prevent excessive aura read abuse or greater cooldown of tokens for Blight from the start of the game, so he need to hook more for getting less excessive cooldown.
No one denies here tunnelling can be adjusted. It's more about should it be removed completely as effective approach. I still don't see any valid reason beside sentiment.
Another reason of inflated rates for some people is absence of SBMM or weird win conditions. Like killer can do 2 kills only every match yet keep 50% killrate. Yet from game perspective it would rather should count as tie for both sides and don’t influence on overall win rate. We have big gaps between players. Yet tunnelling isn't the thing that defines this gap. It's not the thing that actual distort stats. Stats gathering from the start is build in rather unreliable method and don't always reflect their actual skill
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015680#Comment_4015680
That's what I was hoping for
They did broken and exhausted for survivor, idk why it’s impossible to make same for killers. I would genuinely be curious about seeing 115% Nurse or other killer with no power. Some killers are pretty limited already - you can't get condemn as Onryo, Myers fishing with portals doesn't really a thing anymore
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015922#Comment_4015922
So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible
Quote me.
Where this variations in studio?
If YOU want to claim that none of them can work, it is up to YOU to dismantle each and every single one of them. You are the one making the claim, you back it up.
it’s in psychology when u play alone against team.
Psychology is not balance. How you 'feel' about things doesn't change the balance of it. Whether you have a 50% winrate that feels good, or you have one that feels bad, both are balanced.
Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”
Players always choose effectiveness if they don’t handicap and handhold. Saying “u have to play less effective just because other part feels frustrated encountering it” is not making game fair. It’s making the game unintuitive and players brain turned off chase auto pilot machines. Thanks nuh. If u want to focus on pure chase and cancel any sense of logical macro knowledge, than this game shouldn’t be 1 vs 4 from the start. Or macro should be absolutely the same for both sides, which isn’t in this game, because it’s assymetry.
And anti tunnel on PTB didn’t provide at least nerfed version of such effectiveness. It put everything to linier and limited gameplay. Macro gameplay died from killer side in sake of emotional comfort of other, yet this macro didn’t die for survivors. Moreover, it was buffed and more easier to pull at. So nothing was actually compinsated. Hook incentives is a crutch of this system, not an actually working solution.
And in all of this, you have not mentioned kill or win rates, and thus balance, even once. All of this is pure speculation on the subject of game design. None of it is substantiated either, because guess what?
I never played like that.
So your assertions about how people play the game is already proven to be a generalisation at best. Pretty sure @crogers271 and @cogsturning have both also told you that they don't play like that. And others have said the same.
But again, none of this is even touching on balance. All of it is gameplay design, not balance. If you want to prove that it is fundamentally destroying balance, talk about kill rates and win rates, not killer sentiment or game feel. Neither are those are in the domain of balance.
If DBD failed after 9 years in removing tunnelling, maybe then they need to build gameplay around it then.
Quick question: What, in those 9 years, have they attempted?
Because unlike the list of possible ways to implement anti-tunnel, the actual anti-tunnel implemented into the game is a very, VERY short list.
This is almost literally, word-for-word, 'We have tried nothing and are all out of ideas'.
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance
Quote? Okay. Here above. If you have hard time with reading again and need quotes of stuff you messaged an hour before… Just to get to know - talking that some concept impossible to balance is also arguing about balancing. You can’t be selective in this terms. Everything is possible to be argued in this regard or nothing.
Psychology is not balance. How you 'feel' about things doesn't change the balance of it. Whether you have a 50% winrate that feels good, or you have one that feels bad, both are balanced.
This is assymetrical game. It should be balanced around assymetry. 50% rate should be justified by actual play and not handholding as it was on PTB. Last official stats from devs showed 40/60% average rates. Devs claimed them as what they always wish for their game. Psychology is just a way to explain why it's happening.
What, in those 9 years, have they attempted?
- Bt base kit.
- Anti face camp system and Remove of hook grabs to give more opportunities to rescue to prevent tunneling being actually free.
- The anti-tunnel perks existed since first licences chapter.
If
YOUwant to claim that none of them can work, it is up to
YOUto dismantle each and every single one of them. You are the one making the claim, you back it up.
I did in post. You ignored or said “it is not actually true, it's working”, but when I asked for proofs, you firstly backed up and failed to provide it. Because you didn't play PTB or just refused to show gameplay. Anti tunnel works on it's own, doesn't work with balancing.Hens showcase pulled one of the most broken killer as Blight with extremely handicapped survivor team showed. If BROKEN killer can’t deal with this system, not broken killer can’t compete at all. Only if their opponents are acknowledgely worse by skill set in advance of game had broken rgn. After this they put other problematic killer post rework as Clown. No chances. Person on killer was as experienced as his opponents. So again - it is players playing against system and not against players, pushing broken stuff more forward. If you are claiming that anti tunnel can be balanced, it's your duty to prove it. Which you ultimately failed. Create a custom game in future PTB, provide balancing for match, select players of the same level. After this you’ll be able to prove it can be balanced at least in ideal sterile condition. Saying “base kit pop is enough” isn't a proof of this system to work, especially when people explain why. Hens gameplay showecase proved simply better than this. Many videos proved it better.
I’ll ask again - why this system have to exist beside just emotional demand. And why this demand is healthy and prevalent one. And why we pretending it’s people false they refuse to adapt to changes, while the only reason this PTB was proposed is some people failing to adapt to tunneling. “Adapt” argument doesn't work here because backfires.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015923#Comment_4015923
So, your only response is to confirm exactly what I said
You will adamantly refuse anything simply on principle, no matter what the details are, or compensation.
Your feedback is simply "no" regardless of the question. Unless it makes the killers job easier.
Why I should adapt to your proposals when you failed to adapt to concepts of tunneling first of all? It’s not me who started this. It’s you complaining people can’t adapt to your ask. But you doing the same, refusing to adapt to tunneling.
You seriously accepting attention to your feedback when ignore others? Well then
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015903#Comment_4015903
Like haste builds on already fast killers? Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq? Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush? Elusive abuse? Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta? Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
All of this is just doom posting speculation. You've already decided that you don't like it and are working backwards from that conclusion to make up anything that cancels it. Including claiming the opposite of what's literally in the patch notes:
Like haste builds on already fast killers?
Has nothing to do with anti tunnel. If anything, haste got the same treatment as anti tunnel, where "addressing haste issues" like stacking, was proposed, but pulled because people screamed. In fact, hate was demanded to be addressed "because haste is too powerful" and "hate stacking breaks the game", until they went to fix it... Then they pulled the plug on it because people screamed (sound familiar?).
In reality, what the loud people wanted was MFT and hope deleted and not touch killer... Which, come to think of it, is exactly where we are now, isn't it?
Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq?
These are just examples that people are manipulating the devs and lying their asses off to get what they want. People have claimed for years that "spreading hooks needs to be incentivized", and "reward me for not tunneling", and "make base kit regression better and we'll tunnel less'.
All lies.
Because when the devs listen to that feedback and give exactly what people asked for with it, now it's written off as "nothing" and "garage". Most disingenuous crap I've ever seen, honestly.
Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush?
This is just making things up, move of that is in the patch notes. Regression was buffed with ruin and base kit in this ptb, and, for the record, ruin buff made it live.
Gen rush buff? The biggest thing you can do to prevent gen rushing is not wait around a hook and go chase someone doing gens. This also touches on something I'll address later.
Elusive abuse?
I saw one issue with elusive that's easily, actually trivially fixed, depending on how hard it is to code: making them not attackable as well as no collision. I've been saying for years that collision isn't the problem, but apparently they didn't listen
That doesn't mean the system is bad, just needs a tweak. Calling it abuse is because, again, your looking to pull the plug on everything from the start.
Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta?
Which is it? Gen rushing buffs or are people hiding (despite anti hiding) and not touching gens?
You're so panicked about this, you can't even finish a paragraph without contradicting yourself.
Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
This, right here, is the reason people are panicked: you cannot think of any other way to play the game at this point
After years of "lul survivors just can't adapt", and "git gud" in nerf patch after nerf patch, the single most, biggest reason people don't want anti tunnel is exactly this:
You. You don't think you can adapt or play in any other way.
@Firellius said it: "you've tried nothing and are out of ideas."
The idea of leaving a survivor on hook, who physically cannot do gens, and stopping gen progress elsewhere isn't just a concept that's foreign, you can't even consider it as an option at this point.
Tunneling had become more than a crutch, it's literally the only way that you, and others, can even consider playing the game now. Which would be fine, if it actually drove gameplay and interaction, but it does the opposite.
It distills the entire match down to one simple formula of "can the killer hook someone out of the game before about 4 gens are done". Killers who do this excessive are creating a race condition on the match, then immediately complaining about the race they are solely responsible for.
Killers create the gameplay. Unless the survivors have something to do, they will do gens. And since literally any other option survivors might choose to do gets deleted, then the only option left is gens.
You can play differently, you can adapt to any tunnel changes, even if you didn't think you can. I promise you aren't as bad a player as that, so so believing that you can't adapt or function if they do literally anything about this issue.
You can play differently, you can adapt to any tunnel changes, even if you didn't think you can. I promise you aren't as bad a player as that, so so believing that you can't adapt or function if they do literally anything about this issue.
I bet you can do absolutely the same with tunneling, as me and many other players who also play survivors do on daily basis. I adapted to already existing reality, not my issue you personally struggle with it
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015903#Comment_4015903
So just because I told you can’t really balance concept of anitunnel, it canceled everything I was talking about how unbalanced this PTB was with provided examples?
No, you started from the conclusion and then your argumentation wound itself into completely baseless twists and turns to try and support it.
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance on a conceptual level because DBD is far too complicated and has far too many moving parts to make such a claim and give it any kind of basis.
But like I illustrated, your argumentation just openly divorces itself from reality in order to reach for the conclusion you desperately want to be true above all. If you're willing to go to such lengths, your feedback is just not trustworthy because if you're willing to lie to yourself like that, you are definitely ready to lie to everyone else.
but it’s straightforwardly hard for you to accept that idea of anti tunnel from the ground is breaking balance in the game
How is it not for you?
Because the base concept of anti-tunnel has so many possible variations and forms and different ways that it can be filled in that it would take years to dismantle every single possible form of anti-tunnel and declare that, truly, there is no possible way of doing anti-tunnel without breaking the balance of the game.
It's suffused with 'We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas' energy.
If you're not willing to put in the effort to even consider the mere possibility of a balanced anti-tunnel system, how is your feedback not going to get tainted by that very premise?
So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible because this game is too complicated, but pushing this mechanic live to complicate stuff even more - is a thing we need. Okay. I understood that everything you can’t talk about is impossible to argue because it’s too complicated for you then. So the only thing you are keep doing blaming people they are wrong just because they don’t accept a fundamentals of what you are asking for
It is practically impossible to argue that anti-tunnel is impossible to balance on a conceptual level because DBD is far too complicated and has far too many moving parts to make such a claim and give it any kind of basis.
anti-tunnel has so many possible variations
Where this variations in studio? Because the only thing you were doing was defending already existing PTB concept. I haven’t seen any of other proposal from you. Like actually different variation that could work
If you're not willing to put in the effort to even consider the mere
possibilityof a balanced anti-tunnel system, how is your feedback not going to get tainted by that very premise?
It’s impossible. As much as it’s impossible to balance 1 vs 4 gameplay. That’s why.
it’s in psychology when u play alone against team. Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”Players always choose effectiveness if they don’t handicap and handhold. Saying “u have to play less effective just because other part feels frustrated encountering it” is not making game fair. It’s making the game unintuitive and players brain turned off chase auto pilot machines. Thanks nuh. If u want to focus on pure chase and cancel any sense of logical macro knowledge, than this game shouldn’t be 1 vs 4 from the start. Or macro should be absolutely the same for both sides, which isn’t in this game, because it’s assymetry.
And anti tunnel on PTB didn’t provide at least nerfed version of such effectiveness. It put everything to linier and limited gameplay. Macro gameplay died from killer side in sake of emotional comfort of other, yet this macro didn’t die for survivors. Moreover, it was buffed and more easier to pull at. So nothing was actually compinsated. Hook incentives is a crutch of this system, not an actually working solution.
So far, neither the developers nor the community have been able to figure out how to balance this "anti" system, and at a high level of play, it simply doesn't work. Because you said it yourself—the game is very complex. Matches vary. The anti-system ignores the fact that the game is complex and should be played differently. The anti-system sets a robotic template, ignores the game's previous complexity, and turns everything into a mess, with people playing against mechanics, not against other people. It sounds as pointless as removing all anti-tunnel perks and BTs and pretending the tunnel doesn't exist. Both of these positions are extreme and potentially can’t be balanced. Because they are an extreme version of position. At the very least, the anti-system ignored the fact that the tunnel could have been caused by the survivors themselves. Mistakes were simply ignored, and responsibility for them was placed on the other side. You either forgive mistakes and follow the requested template, or you punish them, but the system then penalizes you.
Again. Do you want an anti-tunnel? It's better to create a different game altogether, where the concept of targeting isn't required at all and isn't effective thinking. Which means anything but 1 vs 4
If DBD failed after 9 years in removing tunnelling, maybe then they need to build gameplay around it then. Which they never did actually. We simply don’t have actual mechanics that considering such play, beside crutch perks and base kit BT. It’s not considering as a game sequence in match and never was.I feel I don’t need to answer on this nonsense anymore. Because I’ll have to repeat same stuff over and over again.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015900#Comment_4015900
Again, your post had nothing to do with balancing the PTB and instead sought to supplant it with something else that wouldn't fix the issue. I didn't even come into that thread discussing any of that, I only pointed out a faulty argument and you spun it into all of this.
I want to set a challenge for you: From here on out, any time you want to make any claim of what I said, include the accompanying quote. Because you can't be trusted to read my words and not horribly misinterpret them.
So just because I told you can’t really balance concept of anitunnel, it canceled everything I was talking about how unbalanced this PTB was with provided examples? Like haste builds on already fast killers? Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq? Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush? Elusive abuse? Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta? Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
Yeah sure. My post wasn’t about idea how to push weird anti proposals. My post was about how unbalanced this concept is from the ground and that the game should focus on solo QoL instead. That’s the point — I was talking about how this concept works just as braindead tag shift meta rather than actual QoL, but it’s straightforwardly hard for you to accept that idea of anti tunnel from the ground is breaking balance in the game -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015879#Comment_4015879
I can’t quote out personal messages, so go to reread this again in DM, mr “quote me”.
And you decide to send me a screenshot in which I remark to you that the anti-tunnel changes aren't driven by balancing concerns.
THAT is your proof for me saying 'I don't care about balance'?
Why I should listen person who bring emotional regards of anti tunnel PTB
Because like it or not, the reason people want anti-tunnel in the game is because of sentiment.
under the post about balancing considerations
Your post scrapped the entire concept. That's not 'balancing considerations', that's rejecting the entirety of the PTB. And with your suggestion increasing the likelihood of tunnelling, it's also rejecting the reason people want anti-tunnel. You're just off in your own world and refuse to let anyone tell you that your idea wouldn't work.
Then cheaply trying to argue with this balancing, and when I asked you about proofs of your “this incentives is good enough” “nothing was actually problematic”,
Wow, neither of those were things I ever actually said, again. It's almost like you're strawmanning. Like you're fighting out some, I don't know, grudge, maybe?
Listen. If people despise concept from the start, it doesn’t mean they didn’t try PTB and can’t provide feedback.
The problem is that you disqualify your own feedback. You have already declared that your feedback will -always- be negative because you are fundamentally opposed to the idea of 'anti-anything'.
That is the problem. Your feedback will always come from a position of wanting this patch to fail. Same with CoffeeCrashing. That taints your feedback and in many cases makes it unworkable.
You want to talk about balance, let me illustrate the point this way: Even if the changes were balanced in such a way that we saw an across-the-board bump in kill rates, you would still be opposed to them on the basis that it rejects tunnelling. You will always oversell the drawbacks and undersell the advantages because you want that PTB to fail.
For example, you claimed the incentives weren't impactful, which is pretty unreasonable to try and argue when one of the top 10 most picked killer perks was basekitted in its entirety, on top of two more benefits. That is impactful. You are not going to convince anyone that, in the current state of the game, it doesn't make a difference to have Pop Goes The Weasel equipped rather than an empty slot. Everyone swears by that perk, and they have good reason to. You can't then claim that getting that entire perk for free and opening up an extra perk slot isn't 'impactful'.
Your desire to see this patch fail has you calling Pop Goes the Weasel, a perk many killers say they feel forced to run, 'not impactful'.
That is the way your resentment towards the very concept of anti-tunnel is tainting your feedback.
So how exactly is anyone supposed to take that kind of feedback seriously?
And that was the majority of the feedback, because the idea of a repair speed boost for low hook count kill was also derided as being 'too strong' before the percentage was even shown.
People that fielded these kinds of arguments want the patch to fail, so why would their feedback not work towards that goal?
Do you really expect people being able to dispute with you in normal way when the initial ground of discussion is that low?
Do you not realise that you have that exact problem? You reject the premise of anti-tunnel and then expect everyone to agree with that in any ensuing discussion.
When talking about how to reduce tunnelling, the feedback of someone who does not want tunnelling to be reduced in any way, shape, or form, is not going to be meaningful. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. You can argue about whether tunnelling should be reduced, but you can do that in a separate thread. Not in any discussion (or PTB, for that matter) that is focused on making anti-tunnel work.
Maybe read a whole DM, where on my messages that my post about balancing PTB, you always tried to say “I’m not here to discuss balance, I’m discussing the need of this PTB”. So, simply shifting goal post to the field you comfortable to discuss at. Which is never about balancing and always about emotional feedback
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015877#Comment_4015877
I'm pretty average, yeah, but you're talking to me like I dont understand the "real" DbD. Out of 200+ matches my 30 day KR is nearly 80%. Do you think I don't get good people? Last match I played:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GPPHXZB52MJU/199f67df90f37-screenshoturl.jpg
3man on top. Super coordinated. Second chance and endurance perks. I get plenty of this, and this isn't even a killer I've used much. I have played the game. I know what the good people look like.
You said the good players don't complain about tunneling. Then you said the 12k hour experienced players complain about tunneling. Which one is it?
Are you basing what you do on complaints? Who cares what people say?
Are you basing what you do on complaints? Who cares what people say?
I care what people say when they actually showed some sense of competency. The only thing about tunnelling I see it’s either frustrating which is pure emotional sentiment and it never would be about competency, or people calling it uncounterable, which can be break down by many arguments. From that the issue of S tier and not other one, to that it is counterable.
I didn't say people with 12l hours experience complained. It was in different sentences. I told about people complaining on my style of play even with humble loadout. People like this:
Just straight away are more mature than players like this
And the difference they had is only about matter of experience. I played these matches absolutely the same way. No hard tunnel, just spreading between two hooks. The difference is in weight of experience from both me and opposite side in micro gameplay. The match above was way harder, because people relied on their loops more than on perks.
People who actually was better then me never trolled/harrassed at the same time complaining about tunneling. They just take their win and proud of this. They can mock, I accept this, because it's a game and people can celebrate. I don't really want to sweat for people below and prefer “busted MMR” but with guys above who doesn't bothered by the way of how I’m playing, as much as me. I don't cry in EG and blame people if they won, even if it was unfair match. Because unfairness doesn't come from way of play. It comes from RGN, base mechanics and lack of SBMM. And playing sfw/tunneling doesn't related to any of this.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015820#Comment_4015820
Ok chill, I said I was not young. I didn't say I was playing DbD from my nursing home bed. I'm not stuck in the past, but I've seen those changing trends and I don't think many of them have been positive for humanity. I'd say things are much worse than they were 20 years ago, at least where I am, in regards to human behavior and general mindset. But they're better in other ways. Social media was just a mostly harmful idea, and I think the future of purely human ingenuity and thought is ending and I don't love that.
You can’t call them brainwashed zombies by default, especially when you yourself staying away from this part of culture and don’t really understand this.
I don't watch them, but I see how they're regarded and how people talk about them. I said I don't know who those people are, and that's true, but I've heard their names. Over and over and over and over. "This new so-and-so video explains everything." "Whoever-the-hell had a great idea." "Some-dude showed how the new ideas are bad." I don't know if a day passes without one of these remarks. At least on an active day. Pretty sure you can find a video or two in this thread.
Anything can build, form, and contribute to people opinion
Sure. Everything you take in makes you who you are. Some people just have a really strong sense of self. Some don't. Some are trend following basics. As for fictional influence, I've been watching horror movies since I was a little kid, but my line between fiction and reality couldn't be any stronger. Nothing in fiction scares or disgusts me because I understand it's not real. But some people actually do act out their violent fantasies through games. And hey, that's fine too, as long as it stays in the game.
Some people can be cancelled, but another one will spring up to replace them. Many despicable people maintain positions, whether it be celebrities, content creators, or politicians. The cancelations are very selective. And yeah, advertising is just as bad. I don't think I'm overstating the problem. If there's garbage trying to influence you 24/7, some will get through.
Somehow this is more off topic than the DC stuff...
Straightforwardly selfish mindset
I don't care as much about tunnelng for my own sake as much as you seem to think. I don't enjoy it, but I also don't see it every game. Plenty of killer-players cope without it, myself included. But if I'm selfish for wanting tunneling combated, then you're selfish for wanting it to stay, because you yourself benefit from it. You say you want to improve and be competitive. Then improve. The only opponents who've ever impressed me are the ones who land their hits, mind game well, have great macro plays, and keep up constant pressure all while spreading hooks. These make me go, "holy hell, this person is far above my caliber" and I couldn't care less that they beat me because they're fantastic players and I love to come across those. No tunneler has ever made me think this way. I don't care if you have a 90% KR and are a top player in the game. I've never been impressed, and I never will be.
You will be surprised , but I regularly have games where I don’t tunnel. I barely hardtunnel even - before first kill most of the time I have at least 5-8 hooks. But I clearly make difference when you can do it and when not. Expecting killer not to tunel when 3 first gen popped within 2 minutes of the match is baffling. I don’t need this git gud myph because I’m already sure enough my lobbies is pretty different from yours. You were complaining on try hard survivors as well. I welcome them. As you noticed, I never cried about this forum on full stacks, didn’t demand any nerfs for survivors. I’m fine with people having benefits from the way they are playing. This game is about taking benefits. As soon as survivor can potentially make benefits from playing in team, as soon as killer will tunnel, people just have to cope with it when they face opponents who have opportunity to take this benefits while they not. Because it’s their conscious chose go to the game with specific set up. I don’t expect regular 4k playing trapper. I wouldn’t expect coordination from my solo q. I wouldn’t ask for nerfing opposite side and yk it.
I don’t want to “impress” playing nice every day, just because lol, of course my opponent will take it happily when I artificially handicap myself just because they can’t deal with it in other way. But even so, I somehow still have to deal with benefits they can get. No, thank you. When I feel people can’t deal with me I more likely would relax and don't play through pressure at all. If I see that people know how to play or at least have the gen efficiency, I won't give them a free win.
I never heard complaints about tunneling from players who actually good in this game. So I doubt I needs this appreciation from players who lack some good macro/micro play from themselves
As soon as such lobbies freely exist, can be regular and can get benefits from in game mechanics, I wouldn’t expect from any benefits being taken from killers beside nerfing some S tiers. You even don’t need such items to stomp half of the roaster most of the time. Sure, if killer wouldn’t be able to tunnel I would be pretty happy to it, because I can get benefits from my funny busted stuff as survivor, and they aren’t :₽ I can enjoy playing my sfw. They can’t enjoy dealing with me, because they wouldn’t have options for pressure anymore aside of playing S tier with same 4 perks. Just in sake of facing actually good teams.
I can revert stuff and do the same — times I was genuinely impressed from the team is time when survivor looped me two minutes in total and I had one gen left, so people literally force me to either give up or being satisfied with one cheap kill in case of tunneling. And it was solo q. This is actual skill. Just do it. Oh wait… “It’s to sweaty and unfun”. Then why I have to sweat as much when majority even unable to do it themselves usually? Comp area is tunneling and genrushing. So, nuh, I don’t see the logic here.
I’m already improving. Damn, I was playing with only whisperers or pursuer in my load out and were time to time facing 12k hours players with full meta. People were able to complain on THIS load out in games, even when I didn’t hardtunnel/slug. Or they complained on tunneling when literally was bringing the strongest stuff for their playstyle. Ok, I didn’t tunnel whole match, hooked everyone twice, but brought some meta — what I hear? Complaints. So, it’s not about appreciation. It’s about inability to take L from other side and expecting limitations of opponents.
If games decided me having 1k 90% of the time have to deal with people who have 3 times more hours and I still have high rates on daily basis, maybe I already improved enough, and it’s not a matter of cheesy tunneling, but some people being allergic to opposide side being able to take benefits at all. For me the actual difference between strong and weak player is how often they bring full meta to help themselves. So… why I need aprovements or appreciation from other people, when I already kinda regularly getting this no matter do I tunnel/not? Actually good people either pressed gg or complimented me already, so I’m pretty sure I don’t need anymore. So don’t tell me about improvements and appreciation pls. I already doing it and got what I wanted from people who actually mattered for me. I don’t play to impress survivor who regularly crying about tunneling, but able to find any excuse for benefits they brought themselves. I play for the other kind of people. And for myself mainly. I could go further and would go further, sure, but as I told before, I have different priorities. And it’s not a creating an impression of good guy on people I usually would likely to outplay anyway. My improvements is focusing on micro currently, so I’m playing m2 only. I am preferring to handicap myself in other ways.Don’t see any sense in repeating same stuff anymore
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015800#Comment_4015800
Yes, pay attention and you'll see the generational divide here. It's not everyone, but many people who've stated the same age range to mine feel a similar way. Many of us hate what's happened because of streaming and e-sports. Games have become very public and performartive, when they were once private or amongst friends. Once, your goal was to beat your own score. Then it was to get on top of the leaderboards or improve your KDR, but not to show off for other people, for your own satisfaction. Youtube was a thing, but not like it is now. Now people want eyes on them and do things for attention. Even I'm now worrying about my stats because I feel like they have weight, despite having no audience, and I hate that I feel that way and I wish they never made them visible.
living in CIS region last years showed me enough of people being actually brainwashed or lack of self concern
I'm defintely not comparing it to socio-political brainwashing. The word is hyperbolic as I'm using it. And I'm not saying you're a zombie because you're young. Not at all. But everywhere I go, I see people (of all ages) staring at screens, absorbing other people's views and antics while doing zero research themselves. Today I saw someone use ChatGBT to form a single sentence about why they liked their job because they couldn't think up a generic lie for themselves. It's difficult for me to believe people are thinking for themselves nowadays. I hear more people say they heard something from Tiktok or X than from a valid news source or a book. It's not everyone, but it's a lot of people.
I think these popular creators have more pull than you think, but it's subtle. They have charisma, that's why they're popular, and they can win people over without them even realizing it. I don't mean a 180 flip, but if you're on the fence or, more likely, don't understand a topic well, someone else can convince you if you're not super self-aware that it's happening. People are easily influenced . Even one regular person someone respects on a topic could potentially sway their view. This is just humans.
Personally, I don't think many of the forum users are a good sample. You don't join a forum and post regularly for something you don't have strong feelings about. None of my friends are here except the ones I made here. And you wanting to do this as a job is certainly not a typical perspective either, even more so than the rest of us.
Like, tunneling is frustrating, but people for 9 years keep fighting for to be able do it?
I agree with most of this. To me, the way to reduce tunneling is to make killers fairly even in power, I agree. The problem I see right now is that many people have inflated KR rates because of this tactic yet they don't have the true skill to maintain those rates without cheese tactics, so the rates are just off, and the whole game is off becuase of that. The tutorial is trash. I want the wincon for survivors changed.
But you can't convince me to bring perks to counter these tactics. I refuse to bend on this. I won't throw my build in the trash to conuter some people's choices. And most are useless now anyway. I got tunneled out by Blight at 5 gens yesterday. Got 6k points. Perks would not have saved me.
I don't think you necessarily need "anti" tunnel, but if you make it very, very hard to get value from, people will stop. Make DS basekit or something. Bring in Elusive. Give people super haste off hook. Just make it a waste of the killers time and they'll naturally stop.
It's not everyone, but many people who've stated the same age range to mine feel a similar way. Many of us hate what's happened because of streaming and e-sports. Games have become very public and performartive, when they were once private or amongst friends
I mean, they are a whole generation who simply more solvent these days, and that's... okay? The world is changing, and so are entertainment options. I grew up in an environment where games were both a competition and a way to spend time with friends. I mean... lol, those two things aren't incompatible, and games have even evolved in that regard today
I can’t fit this thing myself because I simply didn’t hit age where younger generation is a whole grown up group. Yet I hope I would be able to accept that trends can be changed.
And of course content creators would have a pull. As well as your own age here is pulling this convo to such a way. But how it denies the fact that mature and mindful people able to have their own minds and thoughts about stuff… We literally living in era where one click and some person can be cancelled, doesn’t matter by actual reason or some ridiculous thing. So you heavily exaggerate influence of celebs on people mindset. They are influencing as much as advertisement you looking at or some actors from films, the only difference is other format and parasocial relationships, but this is straight off topic here.Anything can build, form, and contribute to people opinion. Internet and content creators doesn’t work in some special aggressive way. Like you are literally accept concept of games, and you are playing yourself a pretty violent game where one role is supposed to kill. This theme is pretty romanticised in this game because it’s not real - yet you make a clear difference between graphic and actual violence. Then why it can’t be applied to content creators and people who able to divide influence from their internal thoughts — You can’t call them brainwashed zombies by default, especially when you yourself staying away from this part of culture and don’t really understand this. I honestly starting to feel concern, because it’s looking like conspiracy talk rather than healthy conversation.
I don't think you necessarily need "anti" tunnel, but if you make it very, very hard to get value from, people will stop. Make DS basekit or something. Bring in Elusive. Give people super haste off hook. Just make it a waste of the killers time and they'll naturally stop.
It is anti. Literally. And here we are again. “It can be counterplayed, but this is frustrating, so it should be stopped by making the same thing but for other side”. Idk. Straightforwardly selfish mindset, as much as selfish as grumbling that the modern generation treat games differently. It’s not compromises, it’s “me matters more”. When you aren’t even able to prove you are an actual majority or vast player base
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015785#Comment_4015785
It would never would be good for you and I know this.
Put your grudge against me aside.
Your feedback doesn't work for this patch because you don't want this patch to work. That is the problem.
Someone who does not want the patch to work isn't going to give feedback that will make it work.
Nuh, as much as u unable to keep your grudge aside of players who believe tunneling isn’t uncounterable thing
I made a post once why it didn’t work. And I still remember what you told me - feedback and balance discussion doesn’t matter for you. The only matters is emotional sentiment. So no, don’t pretend you are caring about working feedback. You always cared only about people who was sharing your statements.
You literally went to my post about balancing PTB only to cry about that balance actually doesn’t matter and you want to talk about emotional need of this changes, so my post have to be neglected because it doesn’t considering personal emotional value (maybe because I CAN’T discuss such stuff?????). Despite me trying to explain why some changes was bad there and why. So stop playing this silly games pls. I wouldn’t try to argue with you anymore just because you are so into your obsession about tunneling that even some tryhard sweaty killer would be jealous about how much you are thinking about this
You are keep fighting over nothing. Accept that I don’t share your desires and cope with it, rather than trying to shut down any feedback. I at least played this PTB and made a post when it was almost ended, rather than crying even without trying
It always be your problem I don’t like this concept. Not my or devs
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015781#Comment_4015781
Just because they may have different lobbies?
No, because they have different agendas. You cannot tell me people making money off this are going to have an unbiased take and not try to use their audience to push it through. That's just people.
It just looks like you are trying to defend your position
Which position is that? That people should think for themselves?
people use some content creators you personally dislike as example
I cannot stress this enough: I do not watch content creators. I don't even know who these people you're listing are. I'm not young. When I was, we just played games. We didn't watch other people do so while they blathered on about it. The idea is nonsense to me and I've seen the concept harm gaming over the past decade.
So… do you like it or not, position of such people actually would likely to correlate with position of regular players and that’s why these players using their words in attempts to reinforce their sentiment. It’s not your position more likely
Is it not my position? Who knows? It's pretty unlikely I'll find out because I'm not going to watch a video. Type your thoughts.
So… are u sure you aren’t trying to reinforce your opinion with “I am majority then I am right”?
I play this game everyday. Sometimes I have more than 500 matches a month. I have a relaxed opinon, but I am in no way the majority. I have a fair amount of friends though, and they are less intense than me. And one by one, they're drifting off to other games. And more and more, I'm playing killer alone instead of survivor with friends because my causal friends are unhappy and are leaving the game.
I cannot stress this enough: I do not watch content creators. I don't even know who these people you're listing are. I'm not young. When I was, we just played games. We didn't watch other people do so while they blathered on about it. The idea is nonsense to me and I've seen the concept harm gaming over the past decade.
So, it turns out to be an issue of misunderstanding cause of generation differences? Than it’s understandable, but makes it… even sad in some point, because it basically a prejudice thing. I hope we just go
I’ll bring some personal stuff here. I am game design student and highly interested in marketing. So if I’m getting to the game, I would likely to visit content both about production from devs and community itself (last thing especially). Recently I finished remake of Silent Hill 2, and after this went to visit some play through of other people and devs interviews. It was my hobby even before I got the chance to work and study for this industry, and I know a lot of people especially my age doing the same.
It doesn’t cancel the fact people like me have our own thoughts about the game. It doesn’t mean we blindly follow creators. I might change opinion, but it never would lead to extreme point just because some guy with bunch of m viewers told I’m wrong. If person doing this in game, they would likely more to be “brainwashed” in every term. So it’s not about people watching creators. It’s about people having Illiteracy online or in real life can be easily influenced as well. But to be honest... I hardly ever see such people. I would be eather optimistic here and believe that people rather misunderstand each other and it created an impression rather than actually… like this. I really don’t want to go deep, but just… living in CIS region last years showed me enough of people being actually brainwashed or lack of self concern. Content creators is the last issue of this community. Toxicity demand? Issue. Tribalism? Issue. Some popular guy having opinion and majority agree with them? Like… nuuh… you may not like it, but it’s not a problem.I play this game everyday. Sometimes I have more than 500 matches a month. I have a relaxed opinon, but I am in no way the majority. I have a fair amount of friends though, and they are less intense than me. And one by one, they're drifting off to other games.
And I also active player myself, but vast majority of my friends are having a tendency to be more competitive. Like, I was brought to the game, not me accidentally founding it, and I can say only one of my friend is actually more chill. And many of my friends also left the game, because current situation of game is not about players playing with each other, but rather meta handholding. So you see, we don’t have regular player base here active on forums. And we can’t be their representative. If looking on media, community was always into some kind of competition, challenges and try harding, yet being able to meme around it and bring it in semi casual way is also important. The things started to changed only in recent years, when meta literally became chokeholding such demand. And it’s messed up in such a big extent we can’t say a lot what actual majority asking for. And even if they are asking - are they right? Or is devs reaction to ask is right? For me currently I see a trend of extremal changes I don’t really like. We either push anti tunnel, either nerf OTR and bring hook stages. We either havily nerf stealth, then bring fog vials, and then nerf them even heavier. I can’t say trying to appeal to majority is a right way for this game anymore. DBD should gain specific identity before doing this. Or working purely on compromises terms.
Like, tunneling is frustrating, but people for 9 years keep fighting for to be able do it? So why just not accept it as a thing and actually work for direct QoL?Firstly, heavily nerf S tiers or bring build up power concept to every killer power, rather using multi tool approach. Secondly, make gameplay actually around it. Survivor hookes/slugged? Kindred and troubleshooter. Teammates see anticamp progression and antitunnel perks. DS or any other antitunnel perks should have a priority in shrine of secrets and always take at least one slot. Decent hook rgn and map changes to prevent bottlenecks or unfair spawn… Return ability to stealth in easier way if killer made a mistake and lost a target. Finally, made a tutorial and bring some literacy to this game. Many killers can create nasty hook pressure with their power, and it’s really hard for player to figure it out themselves. Tutorial is nothing in this game. Finally, encourage people who was tunneled, and their team escaped, because they actually contributed the most for the match… currently game simply denies how actually important is to be acknowledged that player can start to play aggressively at any moment
And finally, let people chill enough during events, where tunneling or genrush isn’t a potential thing, so people shouldn’t be worried their opponent can put them to stress point. So events will start to have actual meaning, idk…
Anti tunnel is simply bringing other system, that people will be rant about over and over. It’s IMO, I personally had enough of this. When game already have stuff that requires work and improvements, people asking for crutches. This is already some level of learned helplessness.
I just can’t believe you can make an anti tunnel good thing. As well as making tunnel absolutely free in this game. Compromises… It’s all I wish for this game
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015762#Comment_4015762
I despise concepts of “anti” from the start
What good is your 'feedback' going to be if this is your starting position?
Because this is part of the problem with a 'feedback' driven axing of this particular PTB. Lots of this feedback wasn't based on the PTB at all. The vast, vast majority of this 'feedback' came well before the PTB.
I get that some folks don't want this change. But others do, and it's ridiculous that the feedback is taken specifically from the people that don't want any change like it. Were the rat-players consulted about the Distortion nerf? Were the bodyblockers consulted about the OTR nerf?
Time and again, when survivors express discontent about a change, they're told to suck it up and adapt. But when the ball is in the killers' court, we've got people who are against everything from the get-go. As stated before, the only difference is in the noise you make, not the validity of the complaints.
Cry louder, lower your standards, and just browbeat the devs into compliance. And so the game's design and balance is not in the hands of those who know the game and know what they're doing, but in the hands of drama queens who know how to make a fuss.
It's no coincidence that the person in this thread whose stance essentially comes down to 'I refuse to adapt to any change that may negatively impact me' is also the person whose complaints have been taken, verbatim, and implemented into the game.
What good is your 'feedback' going to be if this is your starting position?
It would never would be good for you and I know this.
As much as you claiming opinion of people who doesn’t like this concept should be ignored because other group asking for controversy, as much I see I have the right stop taking your opinion seriously at all. YK, it’s pure subjective thing, and I’m pretty sure you know why I stopped to take your opinion that seriously long time ago, sorry if this something you don’t want to hear or it’s too rude
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015762#Comment_4015762
It's fine to agree with someone. But there are people here who can't seem to write out an opinion or make an argument of their own without posting a video. A video isn't a good way to say things. I'm not going to watch someone whose job it is to play—and doesn't represent regular players—long-winded commentary on a game. Just the patch notes and discussing scenarios and exploits with other regular people was enough to gather a base opinion for me. I watched a few video on mute. What I saw was mostly extreme exploits of the system. I imagine if they released the basekit BT nowadays you'd see an uproar about body blocking because of it.
You don't think many people hear the opinion of someone they like and listen to all the time and form it into their own opinon? Maybe without even realizing they're doing so?
; they hadn't even tested it themselves (just like they aren't really active players)
Is this fair? Many people, if not most, don't have access to the ptb at all. Lots have expressed their unhappiness about that.
Is this fair? Many people, if not most, don't have access to the ptb at all. Lots have expressed their unhappiness about that.
Talking about is this fair/not is shifting from what they are actually talking about. I don’t see that consoles players can’t play the PTB fair. But it’s not an excuse to behave like I mentioned above
and doesn't represent regular players—long-winded commentary on a game
Just because they may have different lobbies? Why they can’t represent regular players? Just because your lobbies are different, it doesn’t cancel the fact that many other regular players experience absolutely the same content creators are talking about. You know, this same content creators have to play with other 4 players in match usually, and 90% of them are common, regular players.
SpookyLoops and his video clearly represents chill and casual part of gamers. He is doing some hard challenges, but his lobbies lack of try harding. He is one of the most popular creator. He is highly appreciated in community. So… why he doesn’t represent regular playerbase?Otz no longer a sweaty player and do more some kind of research, support pretty casual view point on the game. And after so many years, image around him is controversial - people aren’t agreeing with all of his claims. Not anymore.
Hens is 50/50 player who belongs to some kind of competitive area, but he provides ton of footages to support some of his views, and validates his opinion with actual games.
OhTofu is may belonging to comp, but listening many podcasts, it’s pretty clear he is more into entertainment rather competitive now.
How many… actually popular content creators we have who belongs to actual comp/ try hard pub area? Like are you really sure people put some Knight Light as religion? Gamma, Tru3? Their channels, as well as opinion, are pretty niche and you aren’t going to see a lot of people putting them as representatives. Even if they bring their footages as an example, it doesn’t mean they validate every of their opinion. Moreover, such players are highly aware with difference between pub and comp, as well as their audience.
If people blindly claiming everything that X creator is telling is truth and it’s massively common here — it’s their personal issue. I, honestly, haven’t seen it on this forum or some medias. Again. It just looks like you are trying to defend your position just because people use some content creators you personally dislike as example. But… if these creators became popular, it means their content feels relatable to people or they appreciate this. So… do you like it or not, position of such people actually would likely to correlate with position of regular players and that’s why these players using their words in attempts to reinforce their sentiment. It’s not your position more likely. But maybe, you just aren’t actually belonging to “that” part of regular players, yet can’t even accept such concept.
People create their own idols, based on their own needs and interests. If these people didn't reflect the reality of the game, they wouldn't be trivial to watch. If these people wasn’t demonstrating something majority asking for, they would get much less attention and appreciation.So do you see the conflict? Again, you still attempting to appellate to some imaginable regular player base. And you highly defensive towards everything you find regular playbase sentiment and more likely highly neglectible/ aggressive to what doesn’t suit to your personal image of this regular playerbase. So… are u sure you aren’t trying to reinforce your opinion with “I am majority then I am right”? Maybe nor you, nor me should appealing to this principle at all then, hmm?
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@Shroompy said:
At least for things like map changes/new maps, character and perk changes, and new mechanics. We know they can change/modify a character and maps on 2 different gamemodes thanks to 2v8.
Having the entire playerbase be able to test out changes like these rather than just Steam players would help a tone with feedback and you can even add BP incentives to encourage people to test out these changes.
I think it’s because some changes on PTB, especially last one, is not about adding few new mechanics and assets, but changing fundamentals.
Or actually like trying a whole new engine version. I’m just afraid it is not technically realistic to put betas as event. Because well, they are a whole different version of the game.
Just making two different Michaels for the game will require to double the space for them, because from code perspective they are different characters
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@dramafinesseXD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015699#Comment_4015699
I know the counterplay it’s just kinda a boring counter play tbh
Before you were talking about completely different. Your whole post is about how this thing unmanageable and cheese, and now you change the tone suddenly…
Whatever -
@dramafinesseXD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015275#Comment_4015275
I don’t know if you know this but ghoul has a lot ALOT of animation bugs sometimes he doesn’t pull up even though he’s pulled up sometimes he’s still pulled up on your screen but he can m1
I know about his animations bug, but they aren’t related to what I’m talking about. Because when killer cancel power his tentacles has clear transition to become less stiff + u are getting notified with specific sound. And no matter how much I’m playing against this killer, this sound never was bugged itself and indication is pretty clear. I’m talking about moments where he is not leaping but waiting for you to drop pallet to vault later.
If providing other examples
Nemesis/Xeno/Executioner/Houndmaster/Huntress/DeathSlinger will wait for survivor to drop pallet before insta hit. So, the wise counterplay is to pretend you are about to drop and bait this killer for m2, so they can’t insta m1 you later. Same with ghoul, but it seems people don’t really get this yet. Because it’s actually pretty unintuitive. But you have to learn - if you are dropping pallet when he is in front of you, you will get a down. It’s not the scamper, not the wesker vault mechanic. You have to force him a bite or cancel of m2 before drop, and don’t let him body block you. And his bugs aren’t related to this thing. Because in this moment he doesn’t do leap. This killer is completely counterplay shift w and you can predrop only when u get this small window of time, or when u are sure he run out of tokens. And yet still, you don’t need to win 50/50 every time.
Ghoul is problematic and I don’t deny it. But the point are u providing here as complaint is manageable as soon as you learn counterplay
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I think killers gonna have 10% rate above than survivors no matter what. Just to keep it balanced around asymmetrical genre and that fact that killer is considered as power role. Because it’s simply more simple to bring meta on killer, while for survivor to bring actual meta they require to be in full stack. Always
But if bringing the highest point of potential meta both sides can bring this potentiality is way higher for survivors. You can win against everyone below S tier if bring comms, and simply playing the most safe possible with all items you possibly can get. One survivor with anti slug, one survivor with reset, one survivor with rescue off hook build, one survivor with chase build. Everyone has DS on top — killer don’t have way of pressuring even if he’ll bring the dirtiest strat possibly.
I thinking this sounds kinda logic. Survivors will be potentially able to be boosted at their highest point as possible, but you are unlikely able to pull of this trick on routine basis because it requires 4 people with same level and time schedule sitting in Discord
Killers are less busted by mechanics, but able to pull it more frequently
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Genuinely, I like the idea of void being some kind of area where both sides are suddenly get rid of their personal bonuses, so it’s pure 1vs1 with m1 chase
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@Cassiopeiae said:
Where's the option to leave it as is?
If anything the only change should be to adjust hatch escapes so that they count as a win for that individual survivor instead of a draw.
It seems you can’t really edit polls, and I realised about this option too late
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015618#Comment_4015618
Ok, let’s discuss what actually is happening here. There was a massive massive amount of negative feedback about the PTB, and BHVR reacted to that feedback.
And now we have a group of people that want all of that feedback to be ignored, and want PTB feedback to be declared as invalid for major balance decisions.
The actual compromise is for major changes to be tested in PTBs that are completely separate from patch releases. And BHVR would very clearly tell us these PTBs are only for feedback gathering, and there is zero guarantee that anything on these PTBs will ever reach live.
Having major changes on PTBs, that are connected to patch releases, is an issue for both sides of the game. Because one side will be in a panic to try to get the changes cancelled before they reach live, and that other side will be entitled and feel like the changes should happen just because they existed on a PTB.
I don’t support such people, at least because adjustments they are asking about will be brought to next PTB, if devs not gonna suddenly change their mind again. So, anti tunnel wasn’t actually cancelled. Just postponed again (maybe because it’s really problematic mechanic that at least half of community would never actually fully accept, hm).
But I understand them. They feel killer got their broken toy in face of Krasue with her braindead mechanic, yet their own broken toy wasn’t released. So (maybe) they try to cover it with an ask that “maybe it’s broken but it should be released so everyone can prove in it”. I don’t support this, but I understand. Devs made a mistake with Krasue, and it fueled tribalism. It’s more a matter of principle rather than some rational ask
Average person don’t care about objectivity and actual playtest/feedback. I got it when played PTB and showed that instead of actual test/experiments, the only thing people were doing is consciously exploiting same stuff over and over because they’ve seen it from some content creator, e.g haste builds on killers and plot twist bug. I played for a week and barely was getting matches where people were actually experimenting with builds/killer/mechanics.
Expecting this from community shouldn’t actually exist tbh. PTB was valid when it was a small game. Now it’s too many layers to it, so people don’t play PTB for test. They play for short joy of feel they can deal with changes in advance and maybe even touch some broken stuff and play with them, because going against actual set up of games is mostly considered funny (not in DBD only). It’s devs responsibility, but some uncertainty from their communication leave people deal with their frustration on it’s own. And because human mindset don’t really fit to the concept of self awareness, people start to blame others. To build self validation they also starting to create facts to present their ideas as factual/majority approved one. And basically you can’t deal with it from more rational perspective. More likely, you’ll start to do the same.
So again, I would rather highlight a need to not contributing to such convos yourself. Accept people want anti tunnel. If you are against it, bring cold facts to support your own sentiments. And don’t pretend they are approved by majority and it’s an only argument that gives validity. If more people would behave like this this forum would be less about rant and more about actual community contribution
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015525#Comment_4015525
That is basically saying…
The feedback is more important than the actual PTB data, which means that when players create feedback, even though they didn't actually play on the PTB, that is completely valid.
It also means that changes can be made based on PTB feedback, even though the entire PTB hasn't happened, because the goal isn't to collect as much PTB data as possible.
Just the hot take… idk…
As person who played PTB myself it’s pretty silly claiming this PTB is representative thing that provides valid feedback. It’s not and never would be, because even in actual game it’s impossible to build valid stats and it seems people playing different games here and there
So both opinion about is PTB showed that proposed changes just needs adjustments/or should be cancelled completely doesn’t have any actual ground beside people’s subjective opinion. You can’t talk about this objective from SUCH perspective. At least well, because on its own devs never showed stats and both you and them just appellate with attempts to build your own facts here, which isn’t contextual true
Both you and people above literally fighting for proving some an ephemeral position, purely because you're trying to convince the other side that your opinion is the majority/valid. Something you both will never actually prove. Because well it’s all attempts to wrap up subjective things to some stats or overall position.
Reviews changes and community feedback showed that the actual majority doesn’t want to see that thing going live in any state. Do people like it here or not, doesn’t matter. People should stop behave like this PTB was completely cancelled, because devs themselves claimed that they will provide next version of this absurdity in next PTB.
Maybe it’s time to stop trying to use this cheap “I’m right because others think the same” and use actual takes that can be at least somehow used around something you actually can call discussion and not a fight
It’s fine to accept that your position is subjective. It’s fine to use objective facts to reinforce a subjective position. And it's very strange when, day after day, people on this forum try to pretend that the way they play this game is the most common and popular. So their opinion deserves the most attention and others should be shut down. If person can’t talk about objective balancing and keep it in objective frame, then at least this person should stop to behave like their opinion is unanimously true
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Okay, if returning to topic, holy, this 4 gen is indeed crazy
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This thread is a definitive of us vs them + doomposting peak in current DBD era