nars
nars
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Nah, the situation you describe only really happens against bad survivors. 5 seconds of working on a gen as survivor in a 3 gen scenario is pretty easy, takes more than that to patrol anyways. so one survivor does 5 seconds while killers off at another gen in the 3 gen, killer comes back and kicks it. Takes away the base 2.25s, then takes 11s to regress the remaining 2.75s of progress. Net positive for just one survivor.
If the survivors are smart though, they'll be splitting progress on gens so they are always getting progress while your away.
Ex:
- 3 gen scenario. Lets say it takes 18s to patrol all 3, 6 between each. Lets pretend theres one survivor on each.
- So, theres on survivor on each. It takes 18s to patrol all 3. Assuming the killer kicks every generator, thats an added 1.8s to the patrol time per generator. so, we now have 5.4s added to 18s. The patrol time with kicks is 23.4s
- so 23.4s for a full patrol. I'd imagine the survivors would run when they see their the next gen to get patrolled, so they get off abour 2/3s into that time then get back on when you go. so about 15s of progress per patroll.
(this scenario is obviously mathematically specific and is more to show that good survivors will get a net positive on gen progress in a 3 gen despite kicking)
Alright so 15s per patroll, kicks remove 2.25s. so closer to 12.75s per patrol, without doubling up and without added gen timers. Regression goes at such a slogged rate Im not factoring in the time its regressing before survivors come back. So 90/12.75= ~7 patrols before a generator goes off.
This excludes getting hits and hooks though. Faster killers can obviously patrol faster and ranged killers can get hits more consistently for slowdown. but if someones hit, it takes 16s to heal. so if the gens regressing then you lose 4 seconds of progress. so for everyone injured, excluding the progress gained while the killer was off injuring them, the total progress per patrol is reduced by 4s. but even then the 12.75s would still need 3 injuries just to be negligible.
while that math is pretty specific I think you get the point. gens will be gaining positive progress per patrol unless you are playing a killer with great 3gen, like mid merchant who can prioritize the gens being worked on and get quick downs thanks to lock on.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447123#Comment_3447123
Visual TR does 0 for people without disabilities. Sure the 1st implementation was too "forgiving" giving huge advantage against onryo. That's no longer the case. This is true accessibility feature.
Survivor HUD was never meant to be accessibility feature. It's purely gap-closing feature to allow soloQ to be less miserable compared to SWF. There's nothing more to it. Any competent SWF get exactly 0 benefit from HUD, because same and more information is already shared between them as is.
And FoV techs are mindgames. Especially when Oni runs at you with your ability and you just hide behind the barrel. If Oni sees you or expects you to do this, then you as a survivor just die. If you use shadowborn, you will see said survivor hiding behind the barrel - completely negating any option (AKA mindgame in this case) survivor could have done. Exactly the same thing would have been the case if stretched res returned to the game for survivors - it would be again possible to track killers above walls - negating anything they could do to get the hit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447122#Comment_3447122
But it's not QoL. It's removal of mindgames. That's the problem. If FoV could be adjusted without actually showing more information to killer, then I would call it accessibility too... That's NOT the case.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447078#Comment_3447078
Interesting. I see many tryhard blights taking the perk - knowing the players to not suffer from headaches... I wonder why if it's so bad...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447154#Comment_3447154
FoV techs work against competitive players. If you can't pull it off, then that's your problem. The case I was talking about before with Oni (and same thing applies to blights) is prime example that happens way more often in high level play then in average-to-beginner level.
Also it's not niche. Against competent blight/oni and to lesser degree nurse/spirit hiding mid-chase (for a very very short time) is one of very few options you have. FOV is paramount there.
And your example with deaf people ignores the fact, that they get LESS benefit than healthy people - visual TR gives exactly 0 extra information. That's the biggest difference. Even if visual TR is nice, you will not get extra distance on killer or escape a hit because of it (well the 1st implementation was broken - but it was rightfully criticized and fixed).
And again. You calling the perk F-tier doesn't make it so. The perk is very good on high mobility killers. You can call it F-tier on said clown where it only helps against 360's or window techs or any other animation-lock-fov-techs there are. That's not much. But on mobility killers, it's quite often difference between hit and miss.
- FOV techs are mindgames. Stealthing was a bad example though, and hiding behind a slightly taller object would completely negate this. Besides inthat scenario, theres absolutely more the survivor could have done. Run around the object so oni cant swing, 360 him so he misses. the 360 would work too, considering the limjted turn rate and massive speed hes going at. Happens all the time.
- That same information is already in the game, by just turning your camera the slightest bit. Blights wouldnt even need the extra FOV because a good blight hard-locks where the survivor is inside their head and flicks immediately. Same with nurse. And an oni is a special case, not really having to flick bc most of his hits the survivor is either right in front of him are just turned a corner. In both cases, fov doesnt change anything.
- Blights use it because it feels good to use on blight. People play blight for the speed its fun to go fast. Shadowborn makes a speed based killer feel faster. And if you are that good on blight, where you are bringing shadowborn every game unironically, then you'd be stomping without it. It only helps you not get disoriented when you do a slam, ever so slightly helping you see where the survivor is so you can flick on them. 360s only work on blight if you make him swing to the way, or abuse his limited lunge angle. In both scenarios shadowborn changes nothing. Plus good blights dont use the full lunge anyways, the initial hitbox is wider and more forgiving so they just wait til their super close.
- Yeah visual TR doesnt do much for healthy players you are correct there. But the difference again is that deaf people weren't hard locked from playing without spine chill. It was a lot harder, but it wasn't making them feel sickly. And if it did, I'd imagine that the demand for visual TR would be higher even if it provided some benefit to healthy survivors. People wont get much extra info than they'd already ahve without it as a hearing person. The same applies to the FOV. Someone isnt gonna get 360d if they just dont swing to begin with, and just wait until their in their crosshairs. OR better yet, just flick right as they even try 360ing. both result in a hit. FOV is only a factor in the first scenario, where it just makes the second scenario happen quicker. It just makes the more skillful thing happen more easily, it doesnt make something that wouldn't have happened happen outright. The player was gonna get hit either way. 360s that work are typically just clever abuses of aim dressing, which wouldn't change based on FOV. So 360s that work would still work just fine and just as often. Window techs as well, a good killer is gonna look left and right really fast. and if they dont see you, then their gonna look behind them and see you. And immediately swing and hit you. Or worse, the killer will feel your collision and just swing instantly. Not gonna work against a good killer, unless you manage to 360 them into the vault after. Which at that point isnt even a window tech its just a 360. Which I've already explained would still be ineffective against good killers, unless they do swing and aim dressing takes over (which isnt affected by fov). The only other FOV tech I can really think of off the top of my head is crouching right in front of the killer, so they dont see you. This is barely ever useful, only really good to sneak up on a face camper or something. Which is getting nerfed anyways. FOV techs actually dont work that well, even against good players. And even if they did they aren't core to DBD and shouldn't be held above players having to use 3 perks jus to play killer. and since all 4 perk slots are core to the game, and these rarely usable techs aren't, we should prioritize accesibility.
- No, its not. Blight has a limited turn angle and realistically can only be 360d if he misses a swing, something good blights dont do by accident. bumping something instantly makes you face away from the survivor, and you have to flick back quickly if you want the hit. Its only ever really impactful if you are trying to 360 him during a bump, something that rarely comes into play and works even less bc you can just instaswing right when their in front of you. Nurse is a little different though. As a completely flick reliant killer nuse benefits quite a bit from shadowborns addition. But good nurses are gonna flick you either way so the difference is negligible. Wesker works similarly to blight, except being way easier to 360 bc he can't lunge when hes not perfectly accurate and instead has to correct with his second dash. Not changes by FOV at all, he will still flick you fi hes gloing to and he wont if he wont. Theres really never a situation where hes so close that extra fov is meaningful to landing a hit.
but in the end its your choice.
otz's perk tierlist
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@Emeal said:
I don't think you can pin the fault of being a motion sick prone person buying the game and then not investigating the game first before purchasing, even more so. Morally or Legally. There is plenty of gameplay material for you to have checked. I understand you want POV to be handled better, me too, but don't try to guilt trip the Developers.
I don't want bHVR to associate the idea of POV options with such a bad argument.
it was just an example. And clearly if there are that many motion sick players then they didnt research that deeply. I wouldn't either, I'd just look at the reviews and think it seems cool. Unless theres some wacky shenanigans going on, I'd imagine most first person games that are just walking around and sometimes falling (like a typical shooter or something like re7) dont cause much motion sickness for the majority. Unless its something like portal then I wouldn't really give it that much thought. And even if that were the case and everyone did research super deeply and choose not to purchase, then why should they be locked from buying a game they want because the devs haven't accommodated their needs? In that case, it would be way better from a business standpoint as well.
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@Dark_Alex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447547#Comment_3447547
But I don't want to. Why is victory a skill issue for survivors, but it's up to the limit and no more for killers?
It's not fair.
beause the different game mechanics of the roles have separate curves of skill.
Using a pallet or a vault are very easy things to do, they become skilled when you can chain them for maximum value using different mechanics without having to drop.
As killer though, pallet counterplay is just loop until its dropped and repeat til they lose enough pallets then drop chase. On a higher tier killer like wesker, plenty of loops become insignificant when faced with a perfect double dash. But as a sadako, its a different story.
It mostly comes down to survivor resources game design. The counterplay is typically mindgaming the pallet down (still lose distance bc break), vaulting through the window too etc. Typically "survivor does thing --->killer reacts to thing". And most of the things killers can do without a good power is to just deal with it and lose distance. A sadako cant really deal with a TL wall efficiently, instead having to loop until the windows are both blocked. Then the survivor runs to a typical pallet loop, loop til its down, either repeat or drop chase. Against good survivors, weaker killers aren't likely to get more than 1-3 hooks before a bunch of pallets are wasted. Compare that to a nurse who just ignores the game, and can down you anywhere if their skilled enough. Or a blight, who effectively cuts every map in half and gains distance on the survivor fast than if he were walking while they were standing still. Killers that have effective ways to deal with most/all loops are the strong ones that win with skill while lower tier killers are left to just play the long game til survs are out of resources to chain.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446965#Comment_3446965
I was just showing how ridiculous it would be to add more FoV to killers in a same way by a same adjustment. It's just wrong. It ruins the game. If you need it, use the perk.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447014#Comment_3447014
It removes mindgames to too high degree. Read OP's 1st message - he doesn't want to get FOV-teched. That's basic part of game. Remove it and you can remove other things like survivor items "as a QoL change that affects nothing about balance "
except the difference between killer and survivor fov is the entire POV? one is first person and the other third. Survivors have plenty of situational awareness already which is why stretched res got nuked. But killers have such a choked fov its painful. And no FOV techs are not a core part of dbd, if it has tech in the name then its probably unintended. FOV techs only work on stupid killers anyways, with the exception of very fe that rely on being completely offscreen thus unaffected. So many killers are being forced to use shadowborn because killer fov makes them nauseous. They literally get sick without shadowborn, how is that okay for the sake of some barely usable techs?
Also, theres a fine line between techs and gameplay features core to the game. Yes, killer fov is choked on purpose to allow for more plays to be made. But its not fair to prioritize niche plays over accessibility. Deaf people dont have to deal with no TR every game, why should those with motion sickness be forced to use 3 slots just to play the game? Its essentially the same situation, just that deafness is a more severe disability.
- Deaf people cant hear TR --> All deaf people run spine chill --> BHVR takes notice and adds visual TR. Deaf people now get the 4th slot.
- Motion sick people cant play killer --> All motion sick people use shadowborn --> BHVR completely ignores them.
I mean, at least deaf people dont become physically ill without a terror radius. Its just not fair to hold FOV teching of all things over basic accessibility options. Fov would only meaningfully affect gameplay if it could become majorly extended, like 2 shadowborns. Nobody is asking for that, people just want a slider from current fov --> shadowborn fov. If such an increase really mattered that much, shadowborn wouldn't be an F tier perk. So, make an F-tier perk optional basekit so those with disability can play on equal footing. Yeah it'd be a sick QOL change for everyone else,but its like arguing that visual TR is op because it shows up before the heartbeat sounds begin. Its just such a miniscule difference then playing without it that the accessibility is so obviously more important.
Whats affecting game balance more, shadowborn or killers being forced by their disabilities to use 3 perks only every game? Survivors using adrenaline have to survive a whole game with 3 perks and are rewarded massively. Except playing with only 3 perks with motion sickness rewards you with... the game that you paid money for being playable.
FOV Techs vs Accessibility...
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446891#Comment_3446891
Uhm no sweaty 💅🏻
At any common rock loop he'll just catch you with his 4.6 speed
they meant run around a common rock loop when hes in power. Pretty simple counter. And since he cant hit you he goes into fatigue. At which point the loop resets. Good job.
Also, if his power doesnt work there do you just think he shouldnt be able to catch you? like "hehe I did this one thing so now I win". All killers work like this. Their movement speeds are chosen based on how often their power is a viable option. Huntress is 4.4 because she can almost always injure somebody. Spirits power is always good so hes 4.4 . Nurse can literally ignore physics so they made her super slow so she is forced to use power for hits. Weskers power is best at tall wall loops, but shorter tight loops are the most common type. At those loops, his power tends to be unusable. Therefore, unlike a huntress who can throw a hatchet, or a nurse who can blink, wesker cannot use his power to get a hit in that very common scenario. So hes 4.6 . Trappers 4.6 because his traps are unreliable, unlike hag whos 4.4 with very reliable traps that have a large activation range that always gets a hit when triggered.
Pretty simple. If his power isnt usable in that common scenario, he deserves to be 4.6 so he can function in that and other scenarios.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446867#Comment_3446867
He can literally blink twice just like nurse and if he fails the hit he's still 4.6. He also has recharge add-ons (nurse doesn't have them anymore because they were broken) and one to shorten the second blink to make the first one longer. He also has an addon that lets him hold the second dash before going into fatigue longer, making any mind game useless (uncounterable)
S+ tier
bestie your just bad.
"He has two dashes so he can hit if he misses"
If he fails the first one, then yes he can correct it. Just like, literally any killer with a charge function. Huntress doesnt lose all her hatchets after missing a shot. Why should making one error be that punishing, unless the killers power is strong enough to warrant that? It shouldn't.
"Guys hes literally just nurse"
Unlike nurse, he moves at 12m/s in dash. She moves 16m/s, with a lunge and she gets to choose where she lands. Wesker has no lunge, is locked into the set distance, and moves slower. They are only the same in that they move in straight lines. Nurse goes through walls, moves faster, is more consistent thanks to the lunge, is more versatile thanks to the choosable distance, and has a much shorter cooldown.
"If he fails the hit hes still 4.6"
So... if he goes into fatigue... and he hits you right after... then thats on you...? his fatigue is long. just run away. it isnt hard to understand. He doesnt have range like huntress or ignore game mechanics like nurse. So he is 4.6. You also didnt mention that because he is so speedy, his TR has basekit distressing. so you get to know hes coming a mile away. Im sorry but if you dont understand how to make distance you just suck.
"Unicorn Medallion is sooo OP you guys!!!"
No. Its not. Get a grip. All it does is open up for more plays in more situations. Yeah, super overpowered. You see that addon that buffs him one way, but nerfs him another? Super overpowered guys. Equal tradeoffs are bad game design bc im losing.
"Recharge addons are super duper op bc nurses were!!!"
Because nurse is the best killer in the game. With a 3 second cooldown per blink. And the TWO addons could be combined to a 4 second cooldown. Have one full blink before fatigue even ended. It was overpowered and bad nurses crutched it. But you see darling, the difference with wesker is that he is in fact not the best killer in the game. He is high-mid A-tier. And he only has one addon. A yellow that decreases it by 20%.
His base cooldown is 6 SECONDS PER TOKEN. See the difference? How nurses whole cooldown is doubly faster than his? It takes 12 seconds to fully regain both charges. So, a 20% decreases 2.4 seconds off of his cooldown. Down to 9.6s. Still longer than nurse with nothing. And since hes weaker than nurse, its not a big deal. If he had two addons it definitely would be. But he doesnt. At all. Unlike old nurse.
"Gold egg op bc I'm bad"
Really? Gold egg is such a mid addon. WHat do you even mean mindgames are useless? What mindgames are even to be had, using the extra time to walk around a corner and get someone? just stay behind the wall. You have 3rd person he doesnt. I am so lost as to what is even being complained about here. What, that if he misses he gets extra time to focus and correct? GOOD. ITS A GREEN ADDON. ITS EFFECT SHOULD BE IMPACTFUL. EVEN THOUGH ITS REALLY NOT. Are you really saying gold egg is uncounterable? You. Are. Just. Bad.
"S+ Tier"
So he is stronger than the killer that goes through walls, moves faster than him, is more accurate than him, has more room for error than him and has a shorter cooldown? And hes also stronger than that killer that effectively cuts map size in half with his power, and chase time as well thanks to the speed of a rush if you are skilled? Sorry no.
See that? 5th best killer. In A Tier. The tier where the unquestionably balanced killers go. This was made by otzdarva, someone with thousands of hours playing since 2017. I'm gonna guess you have like, idk less than that. You do not know more than this guy... or really anyone with any semblance of knowledge on this game. Bet your surprised that tricksters down in c tier, after all his knives are super uncounterable and overpowered to use.
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Really? WESKER?
Im gonna do the whole rundown here. Wesker has:
- Built in slowdown
- strong chase
- decent map mobility
- high skill cieling
- fair counterplay (in abundance)
He only gets the slowdown IF he lands his power. He only has a strong chase IF he lands is power. A crazy wesker will instaflick predict you and down you because they are GOOD AT the game. you cant be good at wesker without having a good understanding of how survivors think and move in relation to different situations. ALL the counters to wesker I could think of:
- Dodge the dash, not that hard.
- Bait it
- Fake a vault, sending him flying through it
- dodge the second dash so he loses massive distance
- go in a locker when the second dash happens
- run around stuff his power is useless on tight loops for the most part
- go somewhere really open so he has nothing to slam you on
- dont lose the mindgame
- outpredict him
- dont lose the mindgame
- git gud
Also, why doesnt a licensed killer deserve to be strong? Wesker is the most balanced killer in the game. Surely with a pricetag people should get bang for their buck. Its not like hes nurse. Actually, hes kind of like a nurse/blight hybrid with some plague mixed in. He takes skill to use well, takes skill to counter, and rewards skill with basekit slowdown and an injury. Go cry about nurse.
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@Gandor said:
I do play killer and ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE. It's like sure - give basekit shadowborn, but in exchange return stretch res for survivors.
That way it's also survivors that will see more then the game is designed to do. There will be no more mindgames, but at least it would be the same for both sides...
because accessibility QOL that affects nothing about balance is equal to gaining an UNFAIR advantage with an extended 3rd person view.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I just think making her teleports unable to go through solid objects without an iri addon would be enough really, and even then she'd still be broken.
it would just take the skillful part of her kit and get rid of it. If she predicted where you were, then you lost the mindgame.
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Contrary to popular belief, nurse has counterplay. nurse takes the core skillful aspects of chase and tunes them to the maximum, mindgames. Shes based entirely around predicting the survivors location and maintaining line of sight. Her counterplay includes:
- Breaking line of sight. This way, she is forced to blink for LOS and use the second to hit you. Meaning that you can double back, break los again, and do everything else that counters her while she doesnt have the second blink as a corrective safety net.
- Double backing. Pretty simple one, just rotate between double backing or choosing not to. That way she will have no idea what you are gonna do and will have to predict you. At which point you need to predict her actions and move accordingly. If you are good reading the killer then she will either be forced to do a risky long charge second blink, or go into fatigue and wait for a more secure hit.
- Faking vaults. This is something that works pretty well. Most nurses will just blink right behind the vault thinking they'll be able to hit you either way, but if done right she needs to use the second blink to do so. At which point you can 360, double back, go in a locker etc.
- Lockers. Actually stupid effective. Just jump in a locker when you hear her charge up/blink. She cant open it until after her fatigue happens, so if you wait to make sure shes in fatigue then you can hop out and continue the chase.
- Tall Wall loops. All of them have built in LOS breakage as a gameplay mechanic.
- W gaming. Making as much distance as you can until at a LOS breaking loop is very strong. She has to charge up a lot to catch up. If you've broken line of sight, you can force the second blink or double back. Both of which she is gonna have to deal with. Do this until at a good loop and she cant just down you for free.
- Pallets. To a very small extent, pallets can counter nurse. She can be stunned mid blink after all, and in after the blink but before the fatigue. If play around well you can force the second blink and play for a stun when she lunges. And if she doesnt, fatigue.
All of this combined makes her counterable. Its only unfair if you dont know how to play around her. YOu can break line of sight into a double back, or a triple back even (where you fake the double back so she half blinks) so she has to use the second blink or is completely out of range. You can force the second blink then double back. Really, if you break LOS then regular killer counterplay can work pretty well on her. Force second blink into a window fake, do that into a locker etc etc etc. Theres a lot that can be done against her. Just break LOS and play unpredictably.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446371#Comment_3446371
His base-kit well designed but everything else is bad. People are still abusing his busted add-ons and sadly there is still so much Blights abuses his hug-tech bug.
I think hug-tech should stay. On plenty of loops its all that makes him function. A basic pallet loop would make him just an m1 killer without. besides, if you predict which way he gonna come from or just run away (in some situations) then hes just wasted a rush/2 rushes or gone into fatigue. Outside of those loops all it does is either save you a token or increase his skill cieling.
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Blight, at base, is a balanced killer. He takes a lot of skill to use in chase, has plenty of fair counterplay and insane map mobility. The issue is his addons, i should not be able to halve pallet break speed while having no cooldown thanks to alch ring. alch ring should be iri if its gonna stay imo.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445764#Comment_3445764
give up quickly?
Others were able to suggest useful things here, and most of them weren't complicated
I mean, I have some cool rework Ideas that keep the core gameplay of area control. but by uncomplicated I thought you meant number tweaks/simple changes. Most of which wouldnt be able to solve her issues without either gutting her or reworking her wholly.
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yeah. game would be stale without them. It would also feel like a literal timer rather than a progression throughout the match.
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Med kits - Still valuable. The added 8 seconds is to make up for just one person off gens, and not having to run around finding someone. The efficiency is there for... some reason. With the charges nerf and stuff It wouldnt be so bad to get rid of that part I think. 3 heals from one med kit is strong, but because of the time nerfs it'd be fine imo. But ofc best to see how stuff plays out live.
map offerings - I love map offerings. If maps were balanced then they wouldnt be an issue lol. You'd think by now they could just stare at macmillan and go "that, lets do that right now" and voili balance but NOPE GARDEN OF JOY BABY
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@gnehehe said:
Tbh, an Iridescent holy beamer would be too much powerful 😃
I would literally die of happiness of their were a red beamer item oml
beamer is my favorite item lol
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celeste madeline.png@Skittlesthehusky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445685#Comment_3445685
yesss, good! id be happy to see it. gay pride! (celeste is v awesome by the way, ive heard such good things about it and i love some of the concepts)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445680#Comment_3445680
thats ok! relaxation is always good for the brain 😁
honestly i wish i were in your position right now, im stuck at work waiting for something to download so im spending my time on the forums atm HAHA, i'd love to be at home relaxing
their simple but they work well for a pfp
alladeline.pngalso made one of badeline for my aroace fren
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445647#Comment_3445647
Wait so you think survivors are OP? Lmao if that was the case then the kill/sacrifice rate should be lower than 50%, yet it's 60%
I think you're solely talking about SWFs in this aspect that all bring commodious, BNP, and do not stop to heal or do literally anything else and are god loopers as well as bringing the best map possible for them
In actual gameplay, ie solo queue, this won't happen at all lol
I dont recall ever saying survivors are overpowered. All I did was point out that killer is at a disadvantage right now, that doesnt automatically make me think survivors are overpowered. I'd actually say survivor isnt the issue, its the lack of effective generator regression. I dont want the 3 gen meta back, I just want to know kicking a generator will actually be useful. maybe buff it at base to 150% instead of 100? That way only overbrine would get it up to 200%, and it would be minimally worthwhile to actually bother kicking gens.
I'd like to mention that the killrate stats are from months ago, when the gen kick meta was in action. The meta very notorious for making the game unwinnable for survivors, by making gens lose all their progress at lightspeed. If the killrate was 60% average then, when killer clearly had the upper hand, I would wager its dropped since. Probably not my a major amount, definitely still hanging around the 50-60 area. But probably below the desired 60%, since most often gens get completed if the survivors know what their doing. Also, it doesnt need to be that low (less than 50%) to be telling of an issue. The difference between nurse, blight and spirits killrates of 61% and trappers 56% is just 5%. I'd imagine its maybe gone down 2-3% in average since the gen regression nerf. After all, if progress is staying, gens get done more. And if gens are getting done the gates are opening, meaning people are getting out.
I'm not just talking about SWFs, though they make it unbearably stupid. People in soloQ bring toolboxes and stuff all the time. Because their strong. Why wouldn't they, if they wanna win bring meta and toolboxes are definitely meta. Just one good toolbox can shift a game pretty fast, especially with multiple. Which, in my experience, there tends to be. Not to mention 1 bnp=25% of a gen near instantly. A BNP does 1/20 of all gen progress in 5 seconds. Just one is that good. A solo can easily bring a commodius toolbox and slap on a BNP with wire spool and get crazy value. Dont even need any perks. The point I was trying to make was that the lack of effective generator regression directly conflicts with how quickly progress can be accumulated. Survivors have started to catch on to this idea and have since been using more toolboxes and stuff from what I've seen.
All I really said was "Due to the innate lack of generator regression as of late, generator progression has become more consistent and potent" gen progress that happens is gonna stay bc gen regression is all but dead. So the more progress you get done, the better. Thats always been the case of course, the difference now being the killers options to counteract it have dwindled significantly. I think thats one reason adrenaline has spiked in usage so much. Its value became much more consistent. Stall perks were nerfed hard enough that it became more likely all the gens would pop against a killer playing fairly, therefore bring adrenaline. Thats probably one of the reasons tunneling has also spiked. Gen kick, while completely overpowered, did allow lower tier killers to win without tunneling. And now that the safety net of overbrine is gone, their last ditch effort became tunneling early. I think the update was a net positive though, which some changes dbd could be in its healthiest state yet.
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@Boons123 said:
The idea of this post is that you suggest your fixes and modifications in an uncomplicated and easy way for developers
Without spoiling the main idea of this killer power
Oh please don't make her power look too similar to another killer
The goal is to make it fun to play with or against It also made her have more skills to master
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MU5SDC875O5X/e6018893-5890-4668-87ac-e9f4230e07c4.jpeg
Nothing can be done with ehr current power without gutting her entirely or reworking her. Her core design is flawed, massive area control with exposure and info at once? nothing uncomplicated can be done to fix her.
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@uganda_calm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445647#Comment_3445647
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373124/slugging-is-too-rampant
I agree mostly with you nars but Trotay also has a point.
Yes, killers in this state of the game are not as strong or frighting as they used to be. And if you want to do something about gen rushing you really have to take 4 regression perks. Gen kicking a is useless mechanic if you dont build for it.
But i also think that slugging (only with 2 survivors left) is a very frustrating mechanic for survivors. And there has to be a way for 2 survivors to still win with 2 or 3 gens left.
So i think its best to not make a base kit chance but a new perk.
Learning from mistakes
Every time you fully repair a generator or unhook a survivor you get a token, up to 3 tokens.
When there are only 2 survivors left this perk activates, giving you the following benefits.
- If one other survivor gets downed while you are in the dying state you can pick yourself up by spending 1 token
- 50% haste for 5 seconds after picking yourself up with this perk
Once you used this perk 3 times it deactivates.
This is just something i thought of right now and i think its pretty balanced. It prevents slugging for 2 survivors up to 8 times if you combine it with unbreakable. In my opinion, base kit changes are a very hot potato and only should be made as absolute last option. If survivors hate one mechanic like slugging, 3genning or tunneling specifically they should build against it and not just be saved from all danger by the games base mechanics. As survivor you should not be able to counter every mechanic with just one build, its not the purpose of perks to make you a all rounder. They only should help with one or two things specifically.
You are absolutely right about that. Theres no frustration like being slugged for the 4k knowing theirs nothing you or your teammate can do to stop it. Right now, the only real "counterplay" is disconnecting, which is more of a necessary exploit than counterplay. I think that if everyone alive is down, you should be given to choice to bleedout but that doesnt solve this issue, more that of bleedout bming. We could make that universal and always avaliable, but then angry survivors will just instakill themselves at the first down. hard issue to solve, as long as kills dictate victories stuff like tunneling and slugging will be an issue.
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I made an edit of madeline from celeste over the gay pride flag for pride month as my pfp
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Probably the most tone deaf post I've seen all day.
Explain to me, how exactly are killers "buffed to gods"? Is it the gen kick meta-- wait actually that got removed entirely. Actually, most regression perks are either dead or reworked. And now pain resonance, the strongest regression perk, has been reworked to discourage tunneling. Or was the healing nerfs that went through that ptb-- nope actually that just nerfed med kits down to being fair. being able to save the time it takes to find another survivor, and have them heal you wasn't fair. Especially because you could undo a skillful play in 16 seconds.
Was it bc DH got nerfed? No, that cant be. There are still at least 2 very strong exhaustion perks. And with regression being dead, toolboxes can go rampant unpunished. one bnp does 22.5 seconds of progress in 5 seconds. 22.5 x 4 = 90s to undo a 5s BNP. Ah yes killers have been buffed to gods.
Come to think of it killers been getting nothing but nerfs lately. Gen kick's dead, pain res nerfed/sidegraded. Gens are flying faster than ever since theres next to nothing to stop them now. Most meta perks encourage playing fairly, like NWO and Pain Resonance. Deadlock is simply passive slowdown to prevent genrushing and double pops etc. Huh... almost killers arent gods...
Not to mention survivors been seeing buff after buff. Did you forget the soloQ hud? Or the anti camp changes? or basekit BT? all of which were implemented to streamline the survivor experience into a bearable and fun gameplay loop. Survivors are getting basekit changes to prevent unfair strats like tunneling and camping. Basekit changes to ease soloQ, along with killer perk nerfs making popping gens much easier. All it takes is a commodious toolbox with a few addons to destroy a generator.
So by my metrics killers are gods because:
- Their strongest meta got nerfed
- most regression perks are dead
- the meta perks discourage or are neutral to tunneling
- survivors have basekit anti tunnel, basekit informative hud and soon to be basekit anti camp
- med kits are fair now
- coh is fair now
- toolboxes are running rampant
- gen rushing is now unstoppable
- DH is finally done being overpowered
- survivors still have plenty of good exhaustion choices
There have quite literally been next to no killer buffs this year. In fact, one could argue survivors are "buffed to gods" though i wont because thats stupid and not true. All im saying is that theres more to work with there if one wanted to.
Seriously, if you are having trouble escaping right now its just a skill issue. I know how pretentious that sounds but for real. Right now killers can barely do anything about gens, have a terrible early game without corrupt, cant counter gen rushing and have to deal with all the gens popping almost every game. Im not saying its easy to escape right now, but gosh golly gee willikers is it easy by comparison to before.
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The Tangent: Part 2
Okay, so let me lay out the things you want in this post.
- Old hatch
- Basekit Unbreakable
- Killer nerfs (assumedly)
- Win every time you play a "great game"
Im going to start with old hatch............ WHAT. NO. I am not going back to that. Gone are the days of bringing a key and escaping for free, good riddance to them. It was unfair on all levels, letting all 4 survivors escape for something completely chance based. Or by old hatch do you mean the standoffs? BECAUSE ALSO NO. I refuse to stand on hatch for 3478384 hours just so elodie can hide until the server boots us. not happening. ever. please god. never. again.
Basekit unbreakable................NOOO. Slugging isnt fun and all but they kinda already tried removing it. There was a PTB back in august or september where after 45 seconds of recovering you could self revive. Some good cam from it, bleedouts were no longer a thing. Neither was slugging for the 4k. But more bad came from it. First off, twins was unplayable. Twins HAS to slug to function, and since unbreakable was buffed on that ptb to revive at 100% it would only take 22.5s to completely deny a fair earned hook. Secondly, pallet saves were uncounterable. Right now, if someones contesting a pallet save, you can either bodyblock the side their gonna pull from if possible or chase them away. If the first was impossible which is common considering loop design, then you had to chase away. At which point the survivor picks themselves back up with nothing you could have done. Same thing applies to flashlights. If a bunch of people are bodyblocking a hook then you have the option to drop and chase away, but it doesnt matter because tey just pick themselves back up anyways. Same with saboing and all that jazz. If you downed everyone though then everyone died instantly. All it did was buff nurse while nerfing everyone else. Yeah no, I'd rather not have killer become completely unplayable because you cant handle being slugged for a little while.
Killer nerfs.... I already outline how killer is actually in need of some buffs considering the current dbd climate. Maybe a 10s basekit deadlock or smth idk. But clearly killers are not gods, and in fact, do not need nerfs
you just need skill.That last one sounds reasonable on paper. But its not. Just because you specifically play well shouldnt automatically get you an escape. DBD is a team game and unless you are actively working with your fellow survivors to escape and they are doing the same then you shouldnt get to go. Doesnt matter how good you are at looping, if everyone isnt working together then you shouldnt deserve to succeed in a teamwork based role.
TL;DR your wrong get ratioed'
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445500#Comment_3445500
You were required to hit the 4 great skill checks when the toolbox was empty to refill it pre nerf, so unless you were running Hyperfocus it is completely rng dependent.
BNP is a thing that exists, plus commodius lasts long enough to hit 4 greats. Skillchecks come fast enough while toolboxing that its not hard to do.
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@Blathez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445584#Comment_3445584
I understand that this game is not easy to balance, but if there are 4 people down ONLY if the 4 are down there has to be something around like randomly one of them they can self-recover. I do understand that the're will always people that abuse of some certain mechanics. But from my perspective, it is not the fault of everyone, if some killers depend on a certain mechaniclike this one for me is bad design... But I that's another topic.
I love the game but sometimes is frustrating for both sides and this is one of the things, and you have to own a mindset in order to don't end at that this point...
Yeah I get it. I think to prevent this kind of thing, if everyone alive is down/hooked/carried then you can self bleedout. I dont really think its fair to just randomly self recover, as the killer had to work super hard to get everyone down to begin with. Plus it would kind of invalidate unbreakable. This way the bleedout bm situations are avoided and the killer gets to keep the hard earned 4k.
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Its fine. Its only every 30s, and its probably on the worst perks in the game lol. I get your concern but it gives such little information compared to other perks that swfs dont even use it. Fogwise gets more value lol.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445496#Comment_3445496
Thank you! I've heard many times that Campbell's Last Breath is a must have add on. I'll give her a spin tomorrow.
no problem, happy to help! Yeah campbells is absolutely busted. Just hold down the button and go 40m is about 2 seconds.
dont get discouraged if it doesnt go well just takes some dedication to learn her
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Wraith is a c tier killer. Burning him was just an unfair thing that should never have existed.
wish they'd kept it for nurse though.
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Slugging isnt fun and all but they kinda already tried removing it. There was a PTB back in august or september where after 45 seconds of recovering you could self revive. Some good cam from it, bleedouts were no longer a thing. Neither was slugging for the 4k. But more bad came from it. First off, twins was unplayable. Twins HAS to slug to function, and since unbreakable was buffed on that ptb to revive at 100% it would only take 22.5s to completely deny a fair earned hook. Secondly, pallet saves were uncounterable. Right now, if someones contesting a pallet save, you can either bodyblock the side their gonna pull from if possible or chase them away. If the first was impossible which is common considering loop design, then you had to chase away. At which point the survivor picks themselves back up with nothing you could have done. Same thing applies to flashlights. If a bunch of people are bodyblocking a hook then you have the option to drop and chase away, but it doesnt matter because tey just pick themselves back up anyways. Same with saboing and all that jazz. If you downed everyone though then everyone died instantly.
So if you played a killer capable of getting 4 downs in 45s then you got to 4k every game. So nurse and blight got buffed while lower tier killers got nerfed. This PTB also changed a lot of perks that mori people, like rancor. Tried making it so the next time you hook the obsession they just die, instead of the sick mori. same with devour. just making them less fun overall.
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@Luckyfer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445548#Comment_3445548
It's not only the killers beign OP lately or beign unfun.
It's a multitude of issues:
-Perks beign weak/not making a big difference as to enable playstyles
-No new gameplay mechanics...we still do generators 7 years later,even TCM and F13 had better and more interactive objectives.
-No new items,actually the works/nerfs unarguably made the items much worse,with only the flashlight beign better since the pickup animation buff in 2018 that made the flashlight near obsolete.
-Saboteur/Sabotage mechanic has been Thanos snapped,I know Trapper's a weak killer,as weak as killers get,but his traps beign immune to sabotage just made the perk,toolboxes and add-ons less appealing.
-Medkits.. the only item that were somewhat untouchable...the only item that was sacred and immune to the corruption as they only allowed 1-2 Self Care usage,have been nerfed..
Honestly the Medkit nefs felt like such a kick in between the legs,it felt like Developers were just listening,ignoring Survivors,to killers....as if they were under the killer's boot,listening to their every whim.
nah the med kits got nerfed bc they were kinda op. It was more than 1-2 self cares, it was healing at the same speed as a team heal 1-2 times. If you brought a yellow med kit with gel and gauze you could get a clean 3 heals out of one med kit. It was too strong because it made getting an injury near obsolete. Altruistic healing was just objectively worse, not only because you could just heal yourself. The time to find somebody and have them heal you made it so you spent plenty of time injured and vulnerable. Either go find someone to heal you (spend time off gens for more safety) or risk going down quickly for gen progress. It was an important gameplay decision that impacted the flow of the game depending on your choice. But old med kits could deny the need for the choice. Your teammate stayed on a gen, you didnt need to spend time finding someone, and you could start healing right as the killer left. 1-3 times with a yellow med kit, 1 yellow addon and a green. Just provided too much value.
So it got nerfed. The 8 seconds added are there to compensate for the time spent to find somebody to heal you, and the efficiency debuff is there so you cant stack charges and get as many heals as before. Now, you can get 1-2 heals 24s each out of a brown med kit with an iri and a brown addon. idk how I feel about gel dressings being an iri, but as long as its higher than green im alright with it.
impacted soloQ fr tho. Self healing was kinda necessary if you wanted a chance in the current dbd climate. Braindead teammates cant hold a chase and wont heal you so you gotta do both yourself. But they nerfed your ability to do that, making soloQ harder while leaving swf mostly untouched. Actually, thanks to the CoH rework swf got a megabuff and soloQ got an ubernerf. Med kits are still viable though, as are every item but keys. Flashies can still buy you extra time in chase when used well, and deny hooks in the right scenario. same with sabo boxes, Toolboxes will always be cracked so no need to explain there lol. good luck in the fog.
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@Luckyfer said:
The survivor state right now is a souless,unfulfiling,not fun and tedious affair.
And it's partly developers fault and the killer community.
The developers wanted strong killers and as unique as possible so they turned to the killer community,who more than gladly made the worst killers to play against/be chased by,such as :Demorgorgon,Wesker,Dredge,Artist whom you praise as beign good designed.
Well they're not,they're very much anti looping,and forcing the W meta to be put in use,and eventually the Bloodlust mechanics to set in,or in other words just a more fancy version of Legion from 2018.
And those survivors that stuck around and have knoweldge of this,form the SEAL SWF groups that terrorise the killers,by genrushing and picking the worst map offerings known to mankind..
There are no playstyle in the game anymore,no more chaser/flashlight/juker or healer/rescuer players...only gen jockeys who hope to waste the killer's time as much as possible when beign chased.
I have not in my entire DBD career,since Clown's release,felt more frustration losing as a survivor and absolutely no happiness when winning/escaping,
Sadly the only joy I get from the survivor gameplay is when I use the bad perks they make you do for the challenges,and go out of my way to make them happen.
And by joy I don't mean excitement that I'd get is from dropping a pallet in a nail bitting moment.
I mean as in fulfilment that I completed the challenge,probably a kin to what Dark Souls players feel.
Something has to change,and the developers would most likely be forced to make a difficult choice of either reworking a large amount of the killer's cast and add new gameplay elements as to not dissaponing the Camp---hookers community..
Or reinforce the survivor nerfs that's been happening in the recent years,as to accomodate new survivors to the playstyle,and milk as much as possible from them and hope new surivors replace the old one.
While I agree that survivor is definitely unfulfilling right now, I find it to be more a lack of content than game balance. Survivors pretty strong right now. Gen regression and stall overall received a heavy nerf, with the best regression perk in the game discouraging tunneling. Meaning any progress you gain is likely to stay.
Last we saw, the killrates were pretty good across the board. And those are from the gen kick meta, notorious for literally preventing any form of progression. Now that most regression is gone, I'd imagine they've gone up even if minimally.
But yeah you are right about recent killer releases. SM and knight are both 3genning anti loop garbage, boring to play as and against. Its not even like you have to time their anti loop, like a huntress hatchet etc. Just click button and W away. Honestly the killer community hates this too, W gaming is uninteractive and boring. makes the game a walking simulator. Disagree on wesker and demo though; they actually are well designed. Their anti loop can be dodged easily considering its a straight line. And because of that same fact its actually more effective against shift+w than most loops. Weskers power is usable mostly on longer loops or car loops and such. If you run him on a really tight loop then hes powerless to stop you, an M1 killer. Same with demo but even more.
Wesker is rewarded for landing his power successfully with some meaningful slowdown. Demo doesnt have that, instead opting for map traversal removable at any time by survivors making for some decent minimal slowdown. But dredge and artist? Yeah they suck. Just click button-->hold w. If artists birds didnt have their up close injury shed be fine, and idk why dredge remnant is even a thing. Just remove the locks on lockers then also remove the remnant, everyone benefits or smth idk. the devs need to stop making that kind of killer and make more weskers.
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@ClownGuy5 said:
Not trying to be a hater but like why does it matter? They're fictional characters. I still dont understand the movement of having to make a bunch of gay/trans/bi/lesbians to appease peoples own sexuality.
Again not trying to hate on it, but like at the end of the day a video game is nothing but pixels that have 0 feelings towards you or interact with you.
representation matters so that people can feel like their normal and accepted. If everyone was just straight and white then every minority wouldn't see people like them in media getting to be happy and live their lives. There was a very good example right here on the forums, about a guy with very homophobic family who saw himself represented in david king. It helped him feel normal and like he belonged, thats why its important.
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@Sally_S_gay_son said:
the only thing I agree is that the matchmaking system needs to be better
the last time I checked if you ready up as survivor your goal is to do gens and escape and if you ready up as killer your goal is kill the survivors, there's literally nothing else to do
all this talk about messing around, doing what exactly? Opennig chests and doing totems? Lol
This is not gta 5 online, I am sorry but imagine people wanting to win in a pvp game, shocking
I completely understand that we are all tired of this one game mode we have but please stop shaming other people who want to win, like if you do not want to go against people wanting to win don't play online pvp games
there are "sweats" aka good players who want to win in every single game there is
the only thing here that needs to be done is fix the matchmaking and balance the game to be as fair as possible on both ends, that's it, no one is entitled to other players playing the way they want
I never shamed anyone, I'm a pretty sweaty player myself. Its just a common term for someone playing to win.
Also, theres plenty of messing around to do as survivor. Generator roulette, meme builds, not playing seriously in general. just the general sillies, idk play leapfrog or smth. You know, playing dbd like the party game it was made to be.
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Absolutely needed the nerf. Being able to just completely refill your charges for hitting a measly 4 greats (especially since toolboxes give mor skillchecks) was too good considering you didnt have to do anything else to refill it. like the page says, built to last requires finding and hiding in a locker for a good 12 seconds. scavenger just gave you free toolbox.
But yeah this nerf is kinda wack. why not just rework it entirely, its kind of like DH where its core isnt good game design. So your only option is to either rework it or make it unusable, the latter of which is much easier.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445480#Comment_3445480
Cheers for that, very helpful. So I'd wager I'd be looking at a few months at least to become somewhat adequate with her. I play casual so I'm not fussed with 4ks or being god tier, but I'd like to at least get a good game going. The playerbase might just have to tolerate me learning the ropes for awhile lol
Lol yeah if your just looking for basic consistency, 2-3k on average 1-2 months seems accurate for console, considering the steeper learning curve. I did think of one more thing though, a few addons to use/avoid.
- never use the plaid cloth addon, you'll never wanna stop so you wont get the muscle memory lol.
- use wooden horse in moderation. It good for new players, making mistakes less punishing. But its the same situation as plaid cloth.
- heavy panting is prob godly on console, extends lunge after 2 blinks so you will get hits more consistently.
- theres one addon that basically gives blinks sloppy, its a green. definitely her best lol, especially if you are gonna run nurses calling.
- ALWAYS BUY CAMPELLS LAST BREATH ITS SO OP OMGFIUKASFH
- her iridescents are mostly just for memes, but 3 blink nurse is easy mode and combos well with campbells+bbq. Get one hook->uberblink crossmap->use third for hit-> ez game.
- <3
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@Nazzzak said:
Question for console nurses - how long would you say it took you to get the hang of her? Wondering if I should bother committing the hours to learning her
Pc nurse here, but I though I'd give my two cents. As a PC player with the extra range of movements thanks to MnK, I'd say it took me about 2 weeks to a months of consistently playing her to average about 6 hooks a game. To truly start killing with her it took me maybe a month or two of experience beyond that to do.
Console nurse is SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than pc. There is much less room for error in your movements. On pc, if I overblink I can flick back around real fast and blink back/swing. If someones trying to 360 me, I can pretty easily bap em right on the head no matter where they are. On console though, flicking is practically impossible within the short time span given. So if you want to land a hit, you need to predict them right, turn your camera mid blink (I do this on pc but I can still flick if I mess up somehow), not get 360-ed, make sure you are in range and then swing. If you aren't, repeat. Nurse is quite flick reliant for consistency, so any god console nurse has my utmost respect.
Some perks I'd recommend starting out are:
Nurses calling (free down lol)
deadlock (passive slowdown, doesnt need a hook or anything to work)
nowhere to hide (easy chase starter, can also land you a free hit if you have the aim)
im all ears (see nowhere to hide)
BBQ (obvious reasons)
NWO (endgame clutch ehe)
just thought I'd give what I can, even though im a PC player lol
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Those killers either have range or some form of down potential beyond m1.
That aside, cant wait to abuse MfT+B:dt+hope+blood pact. never catching up to me.
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@CorvusCorax86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445449#Comment_3445449
Plus, it takes a lot of time learning proper blinking. So far I've been able to win only with the add-on that shows me where I'll "land".
This is why I appreciate when someone really knows how to use her.
Yeah, that addons super helpful starting out. Shes super hard to learn, but if you want to I'd recommend taking the addon off and going trial by fire. Its gonna be super frustrating for a few games, but everyone who plays nurse has to deal with that to have that muscle memory lol,
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Not really, actually.
I've been playing since late 2021/early 2022 and have wracked up 1,600 hours. Probably at least 500 hours just on nurse. It was fun for the longest time though, for a few reasons.
- One, she feels super rewarding to play as you can clearly see your skill effecting the outcome of a match.
- Two, I'm competitive and winning is part of the fun for me so full meta was the way to go.
- And three, I come mostly from shooters like apex or valorant so her precise inputs and demanding timings really stood out for me.
It eventually became boring because getting kills was too easy. Survivors typically dont understand that breaking LOS, mindgaming and forcing a LOS blink are how to counter nurse and opt instead to use typical looping with extra steps. It wasnt becoming too easy because shes too strong, more because the perks I was using and the survivors I fought made it too easy. Like, its no fun to chase as nurse if I just LOS blink every time and they dont even bother reading me, or double backing or anything at all. The fun of nurse is half from the precise inputs and half the predictions. I'm of the opinion that nurse gameplay takes the barebones core of DBD and puts it on steroids, making your survivor dependent on how well you can read and predict each other. In place of pallets and vaults, you need to force a misblink or break LOS etc etc to win. I love that about her, Its why I gravitated towards her to begin with.
But yeah eventually I got to the point where It was just too easy to get kills and win a match. full meta loadout I tried running a personal build, pain res+CoB+nowhere to hide+free slot. It worked pretty well, and was also more fun to use than lethal+nwo+bbq+deadlock. There wasnt really much that just happened passively with my new build, pain res was interactive, CoB I had to kick something, at which point NTH would help me start a chase. But that also turned out to be too easy.
Now I'm at a point where I dont really play her much anymore. I mostly play huntress now, since she also requires precise timings and inputs to function. Nurse will always imo be the most fun killer for me, on paper at least. I really love the mindgames that go into a chase with her, how you are constantly on your toes on either side trying to break LOS or land that perfect blink. The precision, flicks, and just vfx as well made a for a "YESSSS" moment with pretty much every down. Until I actually got pretty good at her, and running full meta became boring. Then running soft meta became boring. Most survivors dont understand how to counter nurse effectively, there is counterplay imo its just very different. Survivors just give up If I snowball too hard, if I get midwich they just dc if they hear a blink (cant blame em).
Im unironically considering playing her with just shadowborn and infectious fright, because right now I can 4k without tunneling unless I absolutely need to. Unless I'm actively 2 hooking everyone before going for kills then I'm gonna get the 2k at 3 gens, adn at that point I've won. And if I hard tunnel from the start they just dont stand a chance unless I'm on leri's.
Im kinda hoping they nerf her in some way, without gutting what makes her fun to play. That way games would be more challenging instead of people just giving up or going down 10 seconds in because nurse is hard to counter.
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@SeannyD115 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443073#Comment_3443073
They could just make it like syringe and have bnp destroy the toolbox
yeah I 100% agree. You should have to choose between consistent value or a massive boost, not both. Too often I see a commodius with bnp and wire spool, so that even after the insta 25% they still get like 30s of 50% bonus.
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rip huntress ig
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Inner healing is a great perk. Also, med kits are still viable even though much weaker. A brown med kit with gel dressings and bandages gets you a decent enough 2 heals. Built to last makes it 5.
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nah its definitely gen rushing. Both tunneling and gen rushing are based around focusing entirely on your objective, to the point that nobody has fun. Except gen rushing you bring items and perks to make it happen rather than just a simple strat. A killer can do as much about gen rushing as a survivor can about tunneling. A tunneled survivor can make it to a loop with bt, sure, but their gonna be injured that whole chase and prob go down crazy fast. Sure a killer can try to pressure that generator, maybe kick it or smth. But since regression at base is worthless, and they brought things to make gens go even faster, you cant do anything. If you try to get pressure, you are spending time away from the gens. Committing to a chase means gen progress. And with gen rushing, one survivor can finish a gen in 40 seconds flat. The average chase is about 48 seconds, so if everyones gen rushing every chase means one gen goes off.
Especially bc of BNPs. 5s to get 25% progress, 22.5 seconds. Effectively 450% speed for a few seconds. 1/4 of repair speed to regress, so 22.5=90. 90 seconds, a whole generator, to a regress a BNP that was done in 5.
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it is he ^^^^
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443835#Comment_3443835
No, they are both very bad perks, and I don't think all exhaustion needs to be dampered either, the only problematic exhaustion perk is sprint burst. Blood echo specifically is a terrible perk, and does nothing if no other survivors are injured when you hook someone. And if the survivors have half a brain cell and they are going to heal ASAP instead of waiting to heal, which they already probably are doing anyways depending on what killer you are playing, so like, 2 killers in the entire roster, or if they are resilience gamers.
What? Sprint burst is probably the least problematic. What makes it problematic? i can see maybe the initial proc being argued as such. But it really just acts as a safety net to reach a loop if you get caught off guard. After that, you need to find enough opportunites to walk for 40 seconds mid chase which actively loses you distance. So if that happens, then you are a very good looper to get to walk that much.
Its the least problematic. Lithe provides a 99ed SB at all times, activates on vaults so it gets more distance bc the killre has to walk around. its super easy to use with a dummy low skill floor. except unlike SB, where the no skill players just use it to proc once and go loop (dont bother recharging), the no skill lithe users just have an eternal 99ed SB at all times with no drawbacks or changes to gameplay. Yeah, it activates on vaults but you are gonna vault to get distance even without it. So just play normally and you get max value, unlike SB.
I dont think lithe is op at all, im just saying its more problematic. Even though its barely problematic at all, Just in comparison to SB.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443741#Comment_3443741
Again with the assuming, I didn't ask the question to have my mmr analysed. Don't say 'MUST' because it's not truthful. I could bait dead hard out of any survivor, it's really not crazy hard if you understand how to do it properly. You aren't meant to swing at the sight of them and instead get up close and personal and then you bait. Running around pallets with dead hard can be countered: don't be desperate. Also Quentin has a perk to reduce that exhaustion to 28 seonds if I remember correctly.
yeah sorry man that came across worse than I meant. It was more a "lol those dh users must suck" than a "wow u must suck if you think that" sorry about that.
Yeah obviously you arent supposed to swing at the sight of them. one of the main reasons it was unhealthy, it removed lunging from the game is the surv had any semblance of reaction time. After all, a max lunge is 0.8s, vg human reaction time is 0.25s. DH lasts 0.5s.
0.8 - (0.25+0.5)=0.05s to swing through a dh. And only at MAXIMUM lunge range. Granted reaction time differs, but if they wait just a moment longer and focus any lunge outside of one lasting 0.25 seconds from start to hit will be DH-ed. Makes for unfun gameplay.
Also, how was dh counterable at pallets? You can lunge or they DH, or at the very least its not worth the risk. You cant wait it out or they get the pallet. And baiting relies on their stupidity, any good survivor would just not fall for it. In theory, you could swing and hit them during that buffer period where endurance is gone and they cant drop the pallet. But not only does that require insane precision, but is latency reliant. If you are at a range where you need to lunge to land in the buffer, you need to calculate for the dh timer, the distance, when to start lunging, then hope you get there before they drop. If you were just right in front of them then its easy muscle memory, but if you are that close then you would have just hit them before and dh would be a non issue.
- The main counter to dh, waiting it out, couldnt be done at pallets.
- Lunging is a core mechanic of killer gameplay that was removed by survivors having dh+reaction time. Perks shouldnt completely deny core gameplay mechanics.
- Baiting is unreliable as a mindgame and only works if the survivor is stupid. Flicking your camera isnt a counter, its a alst ditch hope that it'll work. Lunging has a sound cue and visual cue when it starts. If the survivor just waited to see your weapon move rather than your head, then baiting was useless.
- The buffer period was latency reliant, extremely short and way too inconsistent to be called a counter. If that period lasted about 2 seconds rather than like 0.2, then dead hard would have been balanced with ample amounts of counterplay. But it didnt, therefore it wasnt.
Waiting didnt work. Baiting didnt work. Lunging didnt work. Buffer period was unreasonably inconsistent. What could most killer realistically do other than eat the pallet and be on their way? You could just not chase the dh user, but since like 2-3/4 always had it you had to deal with it. You have to commit to someone eventually, at which point you either tunnel out the non dh users or eat dh all game bc you dont tunnel. There was no real counters to the perk at pallets, it was effectively og dh just with less room for error.
I actually loved fighting dh outside of pallets though. The mindgames and predictions made for interesting gameplay in deadzones and vaults. But in true bhvr fashion they didnt take community feedback and instead made it worthless.
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I mean yeah, you could run vigil and make using sb in chase easier. But for one, 28 seconds is still a lot of time to walk mid chase. And two, vigil is not worth using over some other perk. Why use vigil when you could bring deliverance, or adrenaline, or reassurance etc etc etc? Its very outclassed by those perks anyway, and skilled players dont need vigil to use sb.
Most often, people charge sb by walking after a pallet stun/drop or safe vault, or by standing still when they've chained to another loop. If they've stunned you, they probably outplayed you in some way. if their in a position to vault safely consistently, they've been looping well. Im not gonna say chaining loops is skillful on its own, but it at least shows a good understanding of pathing. All of these ways to charge SB involve some form of skill to acquire, whether its an outplay (360 into a vault, sick vacuum, pallet fake etc) or just making distance something skillful had to happen. If someone has enough time to walk for 28 seconds mid chase, then they've been looping well. Especially if they dont have vigil.
Because good SB users dont walk around to map to save it, it can be inconsistent how much they need to walk to get sb back. If they were on a gen for 20 seconds before they got found, its 20. If they got found 60 seconds late then they get the first proc, but they need to walk for 40 seconds to use it again. And if they got found 39 seconds in, they get a 99ed SB to choose if they want to use it now or save it.
- If they get found before the cooldown ends, getting it back is easier. But, the start of the chase is harder because you dont have that safety net to fall back on. you might get hit before you reach a loop, or have to use a pallet to avoid it.
- If they get found after, they get an easier start to the chase but a harder chase overall. Chasing without an ex perk is a big disadvantage, and now you need to walk for 40 seconds to use one. If the chase lasts long enough to get 40 seconds of walking, you have to have been looping like hell. Hence, mid chase SB is skilled bc chase is skilled.
- The scenario of being found right as your SB gets to 99% is so niche and rare its not even worth talking about. Yeah, its really powerful when it happens but it never does.
Heres the math of how much time an SB buys against non mobile killers.
SB moves at 6m/s. Killers go at either 4.6 or 4.4. sb lasts 3 seconds.
(6 - 4.6)3 = 4.2m of distance gained. 4.2/0.6= 7 seconds to regain those 4.2m.
(6- 4.4)3 = 4.8m of distance gained. 4.8/0.4= 12 seconds to regain those 4.8m.
If the survivor reaches a loop within those 7/12 seconds, then the chase is extended further. The initial proc of SB essentially means that you get to start the chase as if you were already at a loop. If ex isnt up yet, then for value you need to lose distance on purpose. And once you have SB back and 99ed as a reward for walking for however long, you can guarantee you reach one more loop.
The counter to SB is to just down them before exhaustion ends. The initial proc guarantees they reach a loop, so just loop them. If you think they'll get sb back just get the pallet down and go. In all the time they need to walk you are for sure gonna hit them once if you arent playing an m1 killer. And if you are, its a killer balance issue that they cant hit someone when they are actively losing distance. And if you dont hit them in all that time as a higher tier killer, they are just better and outplayed you really well.
So essentially, sprint burst acts a safety net so you start off chases with a loop at the ready. You are rewarding for actively losing distance with the power to reach another loop when you need to. it takes a lot of walking to recharge, and if you get it recharged then you have been looping well enough that you've had those opportunities.
SB is probably the best designed perk in the game. But if you prefer the dh meta, rip bc i dont think its ever coming back lol.
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If you think that SB is less counterable than DH, you must not be in a super high elo. People would just not fall for the bait, its not that hard to tell the difference between a bait and a swing. Smart survivors would just hold the dh and run around pallets knowing theres nothing you can do.
SB just provides a safety net and possible crazy chase value when done well. if you get caught off guard on a gen, SB to a loop. Cant get tunneled off hook bc SB gets you away, that kind if thing. It only adds 7 seconds of chasetime directly, 12 if a 110% killer. All it does it guarantee you reach a loop after a use. Outside of the first activation, you need walk in chase, purposefully losing distance for 40s worth of time just to proc it again.
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@jokere98 said:
does starstruck even work on survivors affected by Plaything? 🤔i'm not sure with it
My favorite build right now is Nowhere to hide, Overcharge, Eruption and Dissolution
Dissolution is my personal "addiction" perk on Wesker. It just feels awesome to grab survivor mid pallet vault, cancelling it, and then seeing, how they vault it again and instantly break it (or just slam them in this pallet/near it, that works too. most of the time they will vault it, since they don't get Dissolution notification until it's too late)
Kinda addiction on Nowhere to hide. I hate looking for survivors, that are playing stealthy near gens (and sometimes it can take very long time to find them), so, i just kick gen (and hope there is no Distortion 😅)
Added Overcharge+Eruption to the mix as some sort of gen regression, since i kick gens a lot for Nowhere to hide
As for starstruck, Sloppy butcher, etc M1 perks, i mostly use M2 (sometimes a bit too much), so, they have little to no benefit to me
I like to use pain res, corrupt, nwo, and deadlock. Great slowdown with strong early game, and room for an endgame clutch. Can use noed in place of pain res.
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while I agree new players have a lot to learn and earn in DBD, i'd say a better tutorial would do the trick. Simply telling survivors how to loop in the regular tutorial and not to run around wasting pallets would be great, along with an explanation of the UI and what the icons mean. If killers were shown how to chase a survivor and that its ok to drop chase, new killers would be better. then there could be an advanced tutorial, teaching survivors some basic tricks like faking and idk vacuuming or smth. Killers could be taught some basic mindgames as well.
New players do have a very limited selection of perks, yes. But a lot of the avaliable perks are very strong. The base survivors contain some of the best perks in the game, or just pretty good ones. Meg is fantastic for new players, SB providing a safety net if caught off guard and adrenaline being itself. Dwight has prove, enough said. Claudettes perks are pretty underrated too. Empathy is a great chase tracker, helps keep everyone healed and gives you great info on where your team is. Botany is the best healing perk behind CoH. Yeah, their all tier one and only have one perk slot. But thats just more incentive to keep playing the game. Hey, you like sprint burst? Well, if you keep playing it'll have a shorter cooldown! And for that same cost, you could use even more perks you like at once. That, and all of the cosmetic options and characters you can earn entirely for free entice new players to keep playing.
After a few matches you can use plenty of good perks in plenty of slots. A very good starter build is SB, adrenaline, inner healing and resilience. 2 of which are universal, the other two belonging to one survivor. So just play meg and you get a rounded build. And if you dont like her, one prestige will only take a couple days of playing to get. Most of the limitations put onto new players exists as reason to keep playing, and to focus more on the gameplay itself. If I could just use a meta build right off the bat, how would I learn how to loop? I could just use Lithe, deliverance, OTR and windows of opportunity to W game me into oblivion with very few consequences thanks to deliverace+OTR.
Thats one reason I dont really like the idea you presented, that new players will begin to crutch on their meta build before even learning how to play properly. And then when that build gets taken away in the next chapter, they are left to play with entirely new perks they probably dont really know how to use. If someone with the build I mentioned before is suddenly forced to use SB, resilience, prove thyself and decisive strike then the perks they loved just got taken away. So instead of seeing lithe on feng and going
"Wow, thats kinda like SB! Seems a lot easier to use though, I wouldnt have to worry about the cooldown not ending before the killer finds me. Cant wait to unlock that. And the same survivor has a pretty good tracking perk? Okay, how long do I need to play to get these perks?"
its something more like
"What? I was just using that build, what do you mean I cant anymore? I really liked it, now I've gotta use something entirely different until I unlock my build again... I dont even like any of the builds they've got this chapter. Ugh, now I've got to grind just to get my build again."
A new player right now formulates their own build based on the perks avaliable to them from the start, instead of a full meta loadout they get to have for a little while that gets taken away. It would also stifle variety, even new players turning to meta perks instead of finding something that they really like themselves. That'd happen eventually yeah, but for the time being we just have another meta survivor that didnt even need to unlock their perks.
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While I'd love to see more variety, its just too much to ask for. Making one map already has so many steps to do well. The concept art, renders, colors, sound design, visual design, tile placement, playtesting, size, polishing and so much more just for one. The only maps that have multiple variations as far as I know are the originals, from the release of the game. After all it'd be pretty stale to have just 3 maps to play this brand new shiny 2016 game on. So, they made more. Variety kept people playing. And I'm sure it took a lot of time and effort to make each one match the vibe of the others while also being unique in their own right.
The yamaoka maps got more variations because oni was a yamaoka. it felt lore significant and fitting to just update the yamaoka maps with variations than give oni one map. It probably takes less time to make variations of an existing map than make a whole new one, as the colors and sounds and models are all already made for the most part. The maps introduced with oni were all very unique though. No yamaoka map is like another, family residence is vastly different from sanctuary and vice versa.
TL;DR asking the devs to make 4 maps a chapter would just be far too much work every 3 months, especially with their current workload.