jesterkind
jesterkind
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@[Deleted User] said:
My issue with Bloodlust: all of the areas where it's ok come down to bad map design more or less, and it gives value for poor play elsewhere. The instances of Bloodlust 1 are correctable.
The instances of Bloodlust 2 and 3 are skill issues 99% of the time, and I think the genre needs to stop hyperfocusing on the power role aspect in those situations. If you take absurdly bad pathing, take corners like you're driving a semi truck, etc, I should make that window. We get so caught up in making sure the power role feels powerful. They can. Play the game well and bloodlust 2 and 3 will almost never happen. I genuinely can't remember the last time I was in 2 or 3 on killer.
My point has a lot more to do with keeping trials from stalling out than it is being overly concerned with poor play. There's a line, obviously, but it's healthier for the game to give a nudge to poor players so the trial actually progresses in a way that isn't mind-numbingly boring than it is for the game to allow one chase to last five generators- even if that length would be earned on a strictly skill-focused level.
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@Pulsar said:
I think that BL1 should stay, but BL2 and BL3 can go.
I'd be more or less okay with that. I don't know how much those two tiers are actually helping lower-skilled players with bad map design, even.
Still, here I'm arguing more for the concept of Bloodlust rather than its absolute numbers and implementation.
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For survivor, I'd say it's probably Botany Knowledge. It astounds me that people think its change in 6.1.0 was even overall a nerf at all, let alone a nerf that killed the perk- it's exceptionally good at shaving off time in general, it synergises well enough with Self Care that it makes that perk usable (albeit at risk of sloppy butcher and related effects), and it can even be used in medkit builds if you're a little careful about it.
Prior to its recent buff I'd also have said Deja Vu. It's good now, but it was good before too!
For killer... harder to say, I think most of the perks I use are considered pretty good. Maybe Eruption? I've seen a lot of people act like that isn't worth running, so I'd say that's probably underrated on those grounds. Is Brutal Strength underrated? Maybe that.
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@Kedasa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486908#Comment_3486908
Stupid idea to make them lose collision. You say they can't use it as weapon? It won't last long until the first survs use that lose of collision to flashlightsafe and palletsafe a downed mate, because they dont have to fear getting hit. And to make it impossible to tunnel someone out would be way to much, because the gens go way to fast.
The best way to go against tunneling is slowing down the game. For example by making Hex Totems invisible. So Survivor have to cleanse every totem until they find it. Would be much fairer for Killer with the 90% crap totem spawns. The game lasts longer, because Survs need to find the totem -> Gens arent powered as fast -> Killer isn't forced to tunnel to slow the game down.
The flipside of that argument, though, is that slowing down the game that much makes tunnelling even stronger when killers choose to do it.
That's the trap you risk walking into when you assume players only tunnel because they're forced to. They already aren't forced to, it's by no means necessary to win games, but it sure is easier and that's why people choose to do it. If you want to lessen the prevalence of tunnelling, you do have to do it by making it weaker and harder to do, because nothing else would actually work.
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Not quite what you're saying here, but related, I've been wanting a Moira Burton legendary skin for Rebecca since she was added into the game.
C'mon, Moira even goes for flashlight blinds in her game, it'd be perfect!
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486292#Comment_3486292
I'm sorry you must be confused, they buffed Tunneling in 6.1.0. Every Survivor knew to bring BT anyways, so it might as well have been basekit (to be fair along with 3 Survivor perks instead of 4 as a result). Before 6.1.0 you could have 2/3 powerful layers of actual protection against Tunneling, as you had BT, then DH, then DS (or the last 2 swapped in order). Heck, even on occasion you could use a Styptic or Syringe after DS and get a 4th layer. Now DS is a joke unless only used to reset Deep Wound, so you have 1 realistic layer, because if the Killer has functioning ears they know whether to hit you off hook (OTR) or wait 10.00001s (basekit BT). The only anti-tunnel perk doesn't work with the other anti-tunnel feature. You can't even DH after hook anymore because it also uses Endurance, which idiotically doesn't work when Deep Wounded due to meme YT vids during that PTB. So 6.1.0 hard buffed tunneling, it didn't nerf it.
So Pre 6.1.0, you could have 0-4 layers of anti-tunnel chase delay. Post 6.1.0, you can have 1, and only 1. An average of 2.5 is more than an average of 1.
Already addressed that, you might wanna scroll down a bit.
But, as a refresher: The most egregious form of tunnelling that existed in the game, being downed as soon as your feet touched the ground from an unhook, was completely removed. In addition, you have a speed boost during the ten seconds of Endurance, so while you're running and while the killer is waiting it out, you get further and have a higher chance of reaching a pallet or window than you would have otherwise. These are, undeniably, nerfs to tunnelling.
In addition, there's stuff like enabling stealth-focused anti-tunnel via OTR, and Borrowed Time being buffed. These are less impactful, but still worth mentioning.
Literally the only thing that got any worse wrt tunnelling in 6.1.0 was DS getting its timer nerfed, and I'm in favour of reverting that specific change. As I already laid out, though, that doesn't outweigh the noticeable nerfs to the most egregious forms of tunnelling. As I said earlier, barring some specific killer interactions, if you're being tunnelled now you actually have agency in it, unlike before.
TL;DR, the only way you could possibly come to the ludicrous position that tunnelling got buffed in 6.1.0 is to not remember just how bad tunnelling used to be.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486742#Comment_3486742
Are you trolling me or new? Coz I'm too tired for this
I'm neither, and I'm not sure why Self Care would need to be removed myself. Is it just because finding the right numbers for it is difficult, or?
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@xerox8521 said:
Remove the 3% and keep the Endurance effect. Problem solved.
I don't know that anyone would use that perk, though. That'd effectively be demolishing the perk and dooming it to languish in the depths of mediocre tools nobody ever thinks to bring.
Better to do it the other way around. Keep the 3%, because that's the useful and engaging part, and remove the Endurance, because that part is just a cherry on top the perk doesn't need.
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Why would it be visible?
I don't understand why so many people think the default expectation is that you should get to see your matchmaking specifics. Most games don't let players see the inner workings like that, and if you are ever shown your MMR number, it's almost always exclusively in the ranked mode and not the other modes-- a mode that DBD does not have.
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I think it's disappointing, but only in the "oh well" kind of way. This is what the Prime Gaming subscription rewards usually are, DBD was just well above the average in terms of quality for a while.
Side note, this is not a subscription that is paid for. Amazon Prime is a subscription that's paid for, and part of the benefits of Amazon Prime is Prime Gaming, and part of the benefits of Prime Gaming is a set of in-game rewards for a large number of games that includes Dead By Daylight. It's so far down the chain from the actual purchase that it's definitely not fair to consider it a paid reward. It's a freebie that came with a wider purchase.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486292#Comment_3486292
How they nerfed it? Are you joking?
They actually buffed it?
DS nerfed. Mini STBFL added to killer base-kit. Speed boost reduced from hits.
Oh yea, we got base-kit BT which is so garbage. Anyone can count 10 seconds. And if you have not strong loop to near you, you are dead. And it does not matter even if you have it, thanks to killers like Spirit, Nurse, Blight, Wesker etc.
They nerfed it by... making it so the killer cannot down you immediately after you're unhooked? Giving you a speed boost, too, so that while the killer is waiting it out, you're getting further away from them than you would be otherwise?
That wasn't a buff to tunnelling. DS being nerfed is the only thing that could be argued as a tunnelling buff, and while I do think it deserves a longer stun, that alone doesn't outweigh the fact that the most egregious form of tunnelling was completely removed. Any time you're being tunnelled now, with a handful of killer-specific exceptions, you have some agency in the matter.
I'm not saying there's no problem with tunnelling currently, but it's unfair to ignore what the devs have already done to lessen the issue. It did, genuinely, use to be worse than this. The devs did implement anti-tunnel measures before, they haven't completely ignored it.
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I mean... they have? They nerfed it a year ago, in 6.1.0. They also did add OTR as another viable anti-tunnel perk, as well as buffing Borrowed Time relative to where it was before.
It may still be bad, but back when you could be hit the second your feet touched the ground from an unhook, it was noticeably worse. Progress has been made, albeit slowly.
That being said, reverting DS' stun time would be a great change to help that along.
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It's just not worth spending the time or energy getting mad at, that's all. It's got some problematic synergies that can be addressed, but other than that it's just... fine.
In a broader sense, it is nice to have viable alternatives to extant Exhaustion perks without having to create new perks that inflict Exhaustion, too.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485958#Comment_3485958
There wasn't all these posts about gen-speed, pre healing nerf. Now ever other post is "gen speeds are too fast".
Yes there were?
There's been posts about how generators are too fast for as long as I've been on the forums, they were just diluted by posts about how healing speeds were also too fast. On that second part, they were correct, which is why healing speeds were adjusted.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383896/i-miss-old-coh-and-medkits-so-much-man
Killers don't seem to be realizing that healing is what was slowing down gen speeds.
Survivors are spending all that "healing time" on doing gens now. Killers really have no right at all to complain about gen-speeds when they don't want survivors ability to heal to be valuable. You make healing so useless that survivors don't value it, then all they do is gens. I know I'll just do gens injured now.
Healing-time use to give killers a bit of a breather, while survivors reset by healing.
I'd say the game is actually worse for the healing changes. Killer have to constantly keep survivors off gens which is stressful, no time to breath while survivors reset using healing. And look at all the Killer complaints about gen times being too fast. It's all related to the healing nerf.
The problem, though, is that self-heal speeds before were too fast for it to actually slow down generators by any meaningful amount.
If it was just one medkit with no additional speed, maybe, but that isn't what people used. They used speed addons, they used perks, they used CoH specifically, to make their self-healing so fast that the killer got no meaningful slowdown from an injury. Your choices were to commit to the chase, or try and commit to a different chase, because the second you left someone they could heal in seconds and be back on their generators.
Now healing would slow down generator speeds, because it actually takes time to do. Personally speaking I don't mind players choosing to stay injured, that's a risk I could capitalise on as a killer, so I agree that killer players should be more aware of what decisions survivors are actually making and how they could respond instead of knee-jerk complaining about gen speeds, but I absolutely disagree that healing brought any gen slowdown before. It was simply too fast for that to possibly have been true for teams that brought any source of heal speed.
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What would you propose replace it? Killing survivors is an extremely integral part of Dead By Daylight, it's been the killer's goal and win condition since day one. I'd struggle to even conceptualise of a version of this game that isn't based on killing survivors.
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If there weren't any DC penalties, people wouldn't have any reason not to DC. Even with the bots implemented, DCing is still poor behaviour that should be penalised- the bots are intended to make things less miserable for the players that stick around, not to encourage people to just ragequit out of matches that don't go their way.
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Probably now, all things considered.
Previously I would've said it was immediately after Mikaela released, because a lot of the changes that happened around the same time were very healthy and Circle of Healing was killswitched for a short period after its release so you didn't have to deal with how overwhelmingly strong that was at the time. However, since we've had a lot of changes since then that made the game a lot better... yeah, I think killer's most fun now. The least amount of obnoxious nonsense to deal with, and a pretty respectable amount of variety in what you can bring too.
Maps are a problem, but that's always been the case, so that metric shouldn't really affect much.
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I've always thought she'd make a great legendary skin for the Knight, if they could change things so the skin changes what the power looks like. Sending out each of her daughters would be a sick way of implementing her and her House into DBD, imo.
The only slight stumbling point is that the guards are all distinct and the Dimitrescu daughters aren't, but I'm sure BHVR could figure out a way of addressing that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
I used to not use add-on on nemesis because they all sucked and were completely useless but I use this add-on to mitigate is bad early game with corrupt.
that effect is underwhelming. if you want to buff it, make survivors get put into the dying state whenever they are infected and hit by tentacle whip in tier 3.
you could put drawback that increases amount of time needed to go to tier 3 by 55%. in other words, you need 24 points to go to tier 3 instead of 15.
That'd be wayyyy too much, Nemesis is already a pretty good killer even without addons. The tentacle whip doesn't need that kind of buff, even via addons.
Something like my suggestion would be the kind of effect that would be balanced with the whip, because it's already very good.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483157#Comment_3483157
I found SM's lore to be, quite frankly, worse than fanfiction and almost completely nonsensical.
Good for you?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483150#Comment_3483150
Trickster I've warmed up to.
The game would be better without SM. No Killer has ever been this hated, not even original Legion.
For that last point, I meant more their character concepts and story, not their mechanics. They're both much better inclusions into this horror hall of fame than people give them credit for; Trickster is pretty much the best horror story this game's come up with period, and Skull Merchant's core is interesting and novel enough to more than justify her place in the game.
Mechanically, they're both in trickier spots, SM more so. I do, obviously, stand by her being able to do more than 3-gen, still.
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Skull Merchant is in fact capable of doing more than stalling by defending 3-gens, people just don't want to put in the time to figure her out and, separately, are incredibly easily swayed by overall perception.
She's also not the only killer who can 3-gen to a problematic degree. She's part of the problem, but it doesn't solely revolve around her.
While I'm at it, the two killers who get the most flak for seemingly not feeling like they belong in DBD - Skull Merchant and Trickster - are two of their best original creations who deserve their place in the game the most.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481492#Comment_3481492
1 i-frames weren't necessary to make the distance from old DH significant, like you said it can be activated whenever you want, and that's significant enough as it is. There's a reason why DH's rework scrapped the distance part instead of the i frame part. DH's distance was very much free vs all killers and reliable/uncounterable vs most without needing to consider i-frames 2 Bloodlust does not really counter MFT, it only counters it as much as bloodlust does what it does, and it does that even when MFT isn't being used, MFT will *always* make it take longer to catch up. 3 Holding W for distance with MFT is a bad idea, just like using old DH to get distance in a straight line, its value comes from using it around loops, where it can easily buy as much time as old DH would over the course of multiple loops being used
In order:
1: As I said up above, the only reason the distance was completely free and reliable was the i-frames. If you didn't get i-frames, a large number of killer powers would completely undo your attempt at making distance, and it separately wouldn't be immune to a handful of other killer powers like Trapper's bear traps either. It was the i-frames that made it reliable, when combined with the distance. The distance alone wouldn't have been as powerful by a very wide margin.
2: Bloodlust counters MFT insofar as it makes the chase end quicker than if you didn't have Bloodlust, but that was really just brought up to support my argument that holding W with MFT isn't a good idea. Leading to...
3: So, this idea that MFT would gain as much value as DH over time already kind of undercuts the idea that it's anywhere close to as bad or even comparable. Dead Hard did not need to happen over the course of multiple loops, where at any point you are vulnerable to killer powers and killer mindgames, it just gave you that time straight away, because it could not be countered or reacted to in any way.
I'm not necessarily saying that MFT is completely balanced, though I personally do think that the 3% Haste on its own with its two restrictions is pretty fair. I'm saying that Dead Hard was a level of broken that MFT couldn't even dream of, and nor could Dramaturgy. This is true primarily because of Dead Hard's i-frames removing all reaction or counterplay from the killer, which Haste alone does not.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481513#Comment_3481513
Tunneling is the ONLY way to play DBD,...
He said so already.
Oh, right. Brainfart moment.
Obviously, I disagree with that statement, but fair enough on it having been said.
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Why are you chasing someone who was unhooked less than ten seconds ago, though?
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I strongly disagree with your assessment of old Dead Hard, and the thing that made it problematic hasn't been replicated before or since.
It wasn't just the distance, as any number of perks (Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing) already gave distance at the time- in fact, all of them gave you considerably more distance than Dead Hard did. The problem was that the distance was a burst you could activate whenever and that gave you i-frames. Those i-frames are why this distance was so overwhelmingly, disgustingly broken, because it guaranteed that no killer in the roster could do anything to stop it, whatsoever. It didn't have moments where it was uncounterable, it just was uncounterable, period.
That's why the devs, showing their understanding of why Dead Hard was so problematic, changed it to be a parry that gave Endurance, removing the i-frames entirely. They could have just removed the i-frames and kept the dash, which would've put it in a situation where it was only meaningfully uncounterable for a handful of killers, but they went the safe and smart route in giving it a new effect entirely.
So, then, we have to compare that to these two new perks. Dramaturgy first, as it's the closet comparison: Does it give distance whenever you want it? In comparison to Dead Hard, yes, but only mostly. There is a wind up portion that old Dead Hard didn't have, but it's pretty short. You have to be healthy, but that's a health state requirement similar to old Dead Hard, so it's in the running to be compared to that perk. Then, we must ask the more crucial question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?
...No. Haste is just Haste, it doesn't render you immune to any killer powers, let alone all of them. It also doesn't even really mess with any specific killers either, it's in a pretty fair spot. Cage's strongest perk, no doubt, but not overpowered and definitely not the same as old Dead Hard.
Next, Made For This. Does it give distance whenever you want it? No, not in a meaningful way. Holding W with Made For This only gives you a moderate distance gain in a way that doesn't prevent a killer from using their power where applicable and will, inevitably, be countered by Bloodlust. Not nothing, to be sure, but not strong enough to warrant discussion, especially not in comparison to other Exhaustion perks. The stronger use of MFT by far is to use it in loops, where your smaller hitbox and increased speed make turning corners easier, and that's where we'll ask the second question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?
Again, no. It does mess with some specific killers more than Dramaturgy does, but the majority of killers can mindgame and M1 loop to counter it (though it gives the survivor an edge, as it should) and a majority of killers again have powers that directly respond to a survivor being harder to hit with an M1, because again, Haste is just Haste. It isn't i-frames, and it isn't even close to i-frames.
While both perks can absolutely be debated, especially Made For This, invoking the spectre of old Dead Hard is just inaccurate here. Neither of them are close and they never could be because they do not contain i-frames, which was what made Dead Hard's distance free, reliable, and uncounterable.
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I do agree that removing the BP bonus from Prove specifically is a poor idea, but to be fair, there are reasons to want to control how much BP people are earning and spending. Managing video game economies is, like, a thing, it isn't always about real-world revenue generation or anything, it's about what people have access to with what regularity- the same reason there's a rarity system in the bloodwebs too. I don't think BHVR have done anything to harm or aid this economy recently, for the record, but it is obviously a thing that like... exists.
To the wider point, I wouldn't necessarily want to see all the things you're talking about as benefits of old BBQ/WGLF/PT being on perks. That way, only the players who bother to run those perks are actually getting the behaviour incentives you're talking about, which means it's unevenly distributed. I'd sooner look at giving the player basekit BP boosts for doing the actions being discussed here, because then it evenly distributes across everyone- or at least, everyone who cares about BP, which admittedly isn't everyone.
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Not entirely, but there are some bad ones. I think people focus too much on the bad, though, because there are some great breakable walls in the game!
Some examples:
- The alternate ways up to the second floor on Midwich are a good example of how to make breakable walls into a "spend time now for efficiency later" situation.
- The breakable walls next to generators on the Game provide the killer with bottlenecks where approaching from one angle heavily impacts where survivors can run but at the same time repairing that generator removes this benefit, adding more tactical gameplay. Not much, but some.
- The main structure in Torment Creek has a breakable wall that some killers want to leave up, but others would want to break, which makes the structure play differently depending on who your killer is. Huntress, Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, and a few others would want to force the survivor to take the window, but others would want to shorten the way around and break the wall.
- While the Badham main structure absolutely sucks, I actually quite like its breakable walls. It makes it so survivors are stuck with fewer ways out, but it also means you have fewer ways out when trying to get to a hook, making your timing on breaking the wall important.
In general, I would say any time a wall promotes literally any kind of tactical decisionmaking, it's a good one. Walls you just absolutely have to break whenever survivors start using that structure, or walls that you never want to break at all, are the ones I would say are poorly implemented.
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It's really not that impactful. I'm playing your typical M1 chase killers - Clown, Trapper, Legion - and while I notice MFT in a few of the games it's in, it's hardly losing me games. Almost every killer in the game has something they can do about MFT, and the ones that don't are both weaker anyway and just have to chase normally, which MFT doesn't prevent.
When MFT stacks with stuff, then it's a problem. On its own, it's an edge in chase but it isn't overwhelming.
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I disagree, I think it's both.
A Commodious Toolbox with the right addons is undeniably busted, but "the right addons" very much includes the Brand New Parts. I'd have liked to see it all tackled at once, but any removal of ridiculous gen speed tools is good, on either side.
Now that BNPs are shaping up to be a lot more fair, that leaves toolboxes across the board needing changes- because while a Commodious with charge/speed addons is broken, a brown toolbox with no addons is borderline useless. Rebalancing across the board is a good call, imo.
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@Seraphor said:
Clap trap
...Wow, I really messed that up. Those are on opposite sides of the keyboard, how in the heck did I manage that...
I'll keep it up or this won't make any sense, lol.
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Survivor-only paragraph bringing in John Constantine from the original Hellblazer run. Not the newer stuff, the OG comics run would fit best in DBD.
I'd also kill to see some mainline DC stuff. Even if it's only skins- Punchline skin for Legion? Joker for Trickster? There's good options there!
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476561#Comment_3476561
it is not unrealistic during that time to have at least 3 matches were you’re being slugged to death, hold hostage by a 3 genning Skull Merchant, facecamped by a Bubba with Deadlock and so on. You just to have endure that according to your logic?
Yup.
The only one of those I'd consider fair game for DCing is the 3-gen scenario, since expecting someone to stay in a match for over forty minutes is definitely too much. Expecting them to wait the four minutes it takes to be slugged to death (if that even is what happens), or the two minutes it takes to be camped to death, though, that is absolutely reasonable. It's part of the game and in both scenarios DCing completely prevents your team from even trying to make a play to swing things.
Not to mention that there are anti-slug perks in the game that you could bring if you hate being slugged so much you'll DC and eat a longer penalty than just waiting out the slug timer.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476519#Comment_3476519
Not true. 3 DC’s in the span of 48 hours is already 15 minutes. It stacks up pretty fast.
Right, but that's also already three DCs. If your internet is disconnecting you that much, it's definitely time to take a break from online gaming- and again, I know that's annoying, I've been in that position many times, but that's just how it is.
On the flipside, if you've DCed intentionally three times in that span of time... you deserve that penalty. Don't DC. It's not that hard.
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You don't hit hours and hours of DC penalty unless you DC a lot, and at that point, it kinda doesn't matter if you chose to quit or if you lagged out. If your internet is that bad that you're lagging out of matches more than every once in a while, the unfortunate reality is you really can't play team-based online games without running the risk of racking up DC penalties-- and trust me, I've been there, I know how irritating and frustrating it is. The fact is, though, it isn't the game's fault.
And, if you're the kind of person who spitefully DCs or ragequits constantly, you should be penalised for it. DCing heavily impacts the match, it isn't just about you. The game should have some basic quality control to ensure everyone gets a shot at playing the game properly, whether that's anti-grief mechanics or DC penalties.
Side note, I'm really not sure what comp modes have to do with DC penalties. Don't most online games have leaver penalties? Admittedly, I don't play that many, but they certainly should if they don't, unless they're like... a battle royale or something along those lines.
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...Dead Hard? Still? What's your issue with it, if you don't mind my asking?
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3475795#Comment_3475795
I mean they did give away a whole premium rift pass not long ago so yeah… but I feel like free BP should be a bit more since we do pay for Prime.
Pretty much why I'm not mad about this. Considering a full paid Rift track contains Auric Cells that means one of the more recent Prime rewards for DBD gave me Nic Cage for free. Can't be too mad about it just being the standard "in game currency/XP booster/charm-adjacent cosmetic" every once in a while.
More would be nice, but I don't think it's an insulting amount. More than a game's worth for sure.
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As far as Prime's freebie rewards go, this is pretty par for the course.
I don't mind if DBD's rewards occasionally dip down to the average, if most of them are still considerably above that average. Hell, even if they weren't, free BP is free BP.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3474383#Comment_3474383
Better than having a gen pop before I find a single survivor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471725#Comment_3471725
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471728#Comment_3471728
Prove Thyself is very strong in the early and late stages of the game where it is very likely for survivors to be grouped together. If all survivors spawn together on a large map, they can quickly rush a gen before I even find them. This is strong since it's basically like starting the game with 4 gens. In the late stages, survivors are more likely to be grouped on the same gen since there are less total gens. There is also a risk of a 3 gen, which Prove Thyself is very important for breaking. In these scenarios, Prove Thyself gives far more gen speed than any other perk. If Prove Thyself wasn't strong, the nerf shouldn't bother you much.
I mean, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. I'm just not going to celebrate it either, because it isn't going to matter. PT was never a problem, and nerfing it won't improve my killer games in any way.
The only impact it could have is if it makes my generators pop faster because survivors are actually spreading out, which is always better than grouping up with PT.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3474483#Comment_3474483
You don't really need no mither.
Lot of killers who use corrupt wants to use full duration and only injure survivors during that time.
Oni, Nemesis, Plague are good examples for this.
I mean, how're you gonna do it without running directly to the killer? Even if you do run directly to the killer, the purpose of Corrupt Intervention is to push survivors to find other generators at the start of the match, and your teammates will all have started doing that even if you somehow make a beeline directly to the killer.
That also uses up your charge of Plot Twist, which doesn't seem like a great trade to me.
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I feel like the fact that one of the survivors in your trial is running No Mither more than makes up for the fact that your Corrupt ends early.
I don't think it warrants changing on these grounds, it's a one in a million setup that would never become a meta strat solely because it's still a net negative for the survivor bringing it. No Mither requires very specific builds to work properly, and even then it's a risk. Getting to deactivate Corrupt doesn't change that.
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Background Player is still good, for the record, it wasn't obliterated.
Still, I think what's being missed here is that Background Player's PTB version basically required farming your teammates to use, unless you brought some very specific extra perks to pair it with. It's a little different from Plot Twist because the default use of the perk was negative, actually using its effect as intended without any supporting perks would - with no ill intention on any player's part - result in teammates getting tunnelled and farmed far more frequently.
Compare to Plot Twist, where the default use case of the perk is to spend a little longer healing yourself in a corner. It's not great, don't get me wrong, it'll take brains to use it in a way that isn't a net negative, but it's not actively screwing over your teammates in a very direct way, either. People can use a ton of perks to troll if they want to, their intentional desire to mess with the game wasn't what got Background Player changed- it was that players who had no such ill will and just didn't really think things through much would farm their teammates more.
That, combined with it just not being very good in general, got Background Player changed to something just as niche, but more usable and without that negative default use case.
(Also, we don't know if these perks are getting a pass...? The PTB isn't over yet, we don't know what's being changed.)
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In what way is gen defence no longer viable? There haven't been any nerfs to legitimate gen-defending perks since 6.1.0, to my recollection, they've only tackled the obviously overpowered/unhealthy stuff that needed to be changed. You can very much defend your generators, you just have to put a little effort in.
As for hook defence, I'm not sure how that's a playstyle? All they're aiming at so far has been people standing by the hook and not moving, which is the opposite of a playstyle, you aren't playing the game if you're just standing in one spot and not doing anything. Patrolling routes near hooks hasn't changed, intercepting survivors you see going for a save hasn't changed, downing a survivor that goes for a risky save is only changing insofar as you don't get to down them and keep the person on the hook... there's either been no changes, or the changes are aimed at pushing killers not to facecamp.
I'm also curious about your examples listed- why would killers need to be able to track and chase better without using perks? Those perks exist and they're good, they'll give you plenty of value. If you want to play for tracking, bring tracking tools. If you want to play for chase, bring chase tools. If you want to play for stealth, or misdirection, or anti-heal, bring those tools. They exist and not all of them even need to be buffed. Part of the issue here is that people seem to think killer's basekit is inadequate, and that they need a bunch of slowdown so they can tunnel out one survivor or they're helpless, and that just isn't true. You've got a lot of viable stuff to use, so experiment!
The only thing I can agree with is that hexes could use a little love to make them a bit more viable, but I would hesitate to call that enabling a single playstyle. Hexes do different things and support different playstyles depending on their effects.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3474039#Comment_3474039
The thing is, people will also attack anything remotely useful that is new.
And i am not referring to 3-4 chapters back. Remember all the scavenger doom posts? How people were losing their minds shouting "OMG INFINITE RECHARGE TOOLBOX" and saying how it would be impossible to get a single kill when the perk would go live?
How many scavengers do you see now?
You're not wrong, but PTB Scavenger was broken. It'd be more worth pointing to something like Blood Rush, that a bunch of people were immediately doomposting about very aggressively. That perk wasn't changed from PTB to Live, to my knowledge, and... nobody runs it because it really isn't that good.
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I officially have no idea what people mean by "competitive" anymore.
To the wider point, though, Dead By Daylight hasn't lost its horror vibe at all, it's just branched out into other kinds of horror. The last four chapters are a great example of that; you have Singularity as extremely classic sci fi horror with some body horror thrown in there for aesthetic, you have Skull Merchant as the equally classic concept of "The Hunt" from rich people who seek a more dangerous game, with some social commentary on vulture capitalism thrown in there to give it some spice, you have Knight as a slightly blander but still just as fitting grotesque medieval grimdark horror...
Admittedly, Wesker is a little less of a horror archetype on his own, but you can't ignore Resident Evil's place in horror gaming history. Even RE5 was noteworthy! ...Largely for being awful, but y'know, still. I'd argue Wesker himself doesn't need to represent a horror niche because he's from a broader license, so he just needs to represent that. Which he does!
With Nic Cage, you have horror comedy, which still very much counts as representing horror. Arguably that actually started with Ash, since Evil Dead is considered horror comedy (I think? Still haven't seen them), and arguably it continued with referencing the Scary Movie mask for Ghostface, but Nic is the first character that aims to represent it as authentically as the last four (three discounting Wesker if you must) chapters presented their niches.
I think people get caught up in whether they personally find a thing scary, and base their idea of horror on that. Horror is a lot more far-reaching, though, and Dead By Daylight has done a great job branching out to represent more limbs of the tree than before with recent chapters.
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@Pavel_Ch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472801#Comment_3472801
after a global nerf, they recently wanted to remove his speed addons
But they didn't...? That update was a Billy buff, not a nerf.
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Nerfing Billy? Unless I missed a nerf somewhere along the line, Nurse has been nerfed in the time between Billy's nerf and now, so that's a weird example to use.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3460395#Comment_3460395
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3460778#Comment_3460778
Looks like I was right about Prove Thyself being too strong. It's getting nerfed next patch.
Nothing I said is wrong, and the Prove Thyself nerf is unnecessary.
The BNP nerf, that's a much better and more impactful change. Nerfing Prove Thyself is going to do either nothing at all because it was never the reason gens went so fast, or it'd hypothetically make gens faster because people stop grouping up. Just because BHVR are doing it doesn't automatically make it a good or necessary idea, lol.
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@fulltonon said:
Ah yes, the "counter", when all those killer powers actually get countered by MFT to some degree.
Why do people keep thinking if a power marginally negates the effectiveness of a perk it will be considered "counter"? all of those powers actually gets reduced effectiveness against MFT, which tells those powers are getting countered by MFT, not other way around.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470923#Comment_3470923
And that's just your assumption, which will never be proven to be true or not, seems to be a pointless imagination.
If both are at diminished effectiveness, the one that ends up stronger is the counter to the other one. So, while MFT makes, say, Clown's bottles slightly weaker... Clown's bottles completely undo MFT, so they're a counter to it.
Same goes for most of the killers listed in OP's list and a few other killers besides. They all may be affected by MFT, but they're still the ones that come out stronger.