jesterkind
jesterkind
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I guarantee you that feeling will change for TCM once it's been out a few years, if it lasts that long.
That's the real reason DBD feels so different (and worse, even though it's actually improved a ton since those days). People didn't know how to play when it was newer and that made it feel more relaxed. Now they do, and that means they know when they're messing up and they know that their opponent will capitalise on it.
It's the case with any game, not just DBD.
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I don't know, but I love it, they're so fun as fake names.
Though, to take a crack at guessing why, I'd imagine it has something to do with correcting for people already knowing what perks in the game currently do. This way, you're relying entirely on the thing they're actually testing, which is the way the information is arranged on the perk card- you can't take any shortcuts and fill in any gaps that might be there because you already know what the perk does.
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There's at least one, right here.
Skull Merchant's potential is strategic, not mechanical. Sure, the actual interaction of putting down a drone isn't particularly enthralling, but figuring out the ideal spot for what you're trying to do and then chasing survivors accordingly is definitely engaging! Right now the only really viable build (other than That One, obviously) is to play her for chase- you run double-purples and set her drones up as traps to steer survivors towards, and that's basically the same draw as Trapper.
If she were changed appropriately, you'd also get to figure out the best places to place her drones to use them for stealth, or you'd bait survivors into hacking the drones so you can use the claw traps, etcetera. Skull Merchant as she is right now may not be that fun, but that's just because she isn't as good as she should be at the many interesting things her kit does.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3519189#Comment_3519189
I would love for them tp chuck in a licence that's not one of the big ones, just to show not being well-known does not mean it's not worthwhile. "The Magnus Archives" has killer and survivor value for its own universe of DBD!
Speaking of "Worm", I've not heard of it but may have an eye out to see. "The Magnus Archives" has an episode called "The Worms" which is a very grim and sobering episode to imagine.
My girlfriend's super into Magnus Archives, I got a couple seasons in before taking a break- it'd be a tough license but I do think they could find a way to make it work. If nothing else, BHVR are really good at translating non-obvious characters into DBD at this point.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I got REALLY EXCITED when I read the killer known as The NotJake, because the NotThem are characters from "The Magnus Archives", which is an amazing horror podcast and I'd love for something from there to be included in here.
Really hoping this would happen - don't get my hopes up unnecessarily!!!
Plus the perk sounds okay too (maybe some number changes, but otherwise).
Similarly, I had a moment when seeing "The Snail", since there's a character called that in a novel I like called Worm.
Even more niche and unlikely to make it into DBD (and ol' Gregor wouldn't be the best choice of killer anyway), but man, the dream is still a sweet one...
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I'm deeply amused by the character names more than anything, ha.
The actual mechanics of these perks range from kinda useless to kinda busted, hypothetically. I love the idea of Harming Hands, myself.
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It's a good, but not incredible, perk. People love to pretend it didn't get buffed in 6.1.0 because they think the downside it also got was too harsh, but that buff isn't nothing. Cleansing bones silently is the most real application, and if there's no line of sight, it lets you be a little more aggressive in getting rid of powerful hexes. Niche, to be sure, but certainly impactful.
That said, I do think the action speed penalty on cleansing/blessing and chest opening is too much. -30% is a lot, and while the buff they gave it was potent, I don't think it warranted a downside that severe. It's a good perk but can be tricky to use because of it.
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The Skull Merchant's core design is not only not a failure, it's one of the best core designs we've ever had.
Note that I say core design here, not live balance. The version we have is both obviously problematic and too weak to reach anything even close to its full potential. But, with 3-gens addressed and some number changes (+ some moderate adjustments outside that, but nothing too huge), the Skull Merchant would be one of the most versatile and interesting killers we've ever had.
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The win conditions are pretty obvious in their general shape, though some specifics are up for interpretation on the killer side.
For survivor, it's pretty clear: Escape. If you escape, you win. If you didn't, you lose. That's how the game is designed, that is the thing that all survivor actions are heading towards as a goal, so it's the win condition. Pretty straightforward.
For killer it's a little more ambiguous, so some level of subjectivity and personal interpretation is gonna come into play. The game is clearly designed around killing survivors as your goal, so the win condition clearly must be that, but exactly how many is a little less clear. I'd personally say at least three is a win, as it's more than escaped, that's just my opinion on that front.
Of course, the game's win condition doesn't have to be the only thing you care about. You may care about altruistic plays more as survivor, so a three-out game with you as the only kill can still be a win for you even if the game you're playing counts it as a loss, for example.
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Yeah, it's pretty easy. For Knight, don't place your guards down in a loop solely to make survivors run away. Bang, you're playing an active and interactive Knight.
For Skull Merchant, don't try and do the above with your drones (it doesn't even work as well), and don't 3-gen. Play her for chase with trap-drones set ahead of time, play her to try and use the claw traps more, heck, try and use her stealth if you're really committed. It's harder for her because she's not as good in her more interactive playstyles as Knight is, but it's more than doable.
No matter what you do, though, some people are gonna think the killer is boring. The most pure chase killer in the game, Legion, gets a bad rep from some because they don't like mending, so you really can't please everyone.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3515858#Comment_3515858
Not the Seal Team Solos that everyone talks about😱
I don't know what kind of SWF's and solo's you've been facing, but I'll trade in a heartbeat.
What?
I don't know what that first part means, but to the second part- the only times I can be sure I'm facing a SWF (outside of matching names) is when they play very altruistically, which is a good thing for both of us. It's a more active trial, there's more interaction, and there's much more I can punish because survivors are going out of their way to run into me. That's a good thing, and it helps a lot with trying out new killers or experimental builds.
What I don't want when I'm playing a new killer or an experimental build is a team of solos who play ultra safe because they don't know if they can rely on their teammates. I want cocky and in-your-face survivors because they're much, much easier to punish and their generators tend to go slower because they're all messing with the killer.
Granted, if those survivors are all really good loopers the match can be miserable, but that's true of solos too.
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Wouldn't that work against you if you want to play relaxed or try an experimental build?
You're more likely to get that if you're facing a group of friends who'll play altruistically and have a higher chance of messing around than a team of solos.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514470#Comment_3514470
The healing nerfs went to far, which is obvious from the outcome.
Healing, as well as booning, were *good* things for the killer. Time spent looking for a totem, blessing, running to and from the boon aura, and even the ~22s spent self caring were all time spent not on gens.
The devs did exactly what killers asked for and 'made healing suck'. Killers seem to have had this vision of survivors running around blindly, looking for heals and wasting minutes of time for those same health states.
But that isn't the end result. The obvious outcome from 'making healing suck' is that survivors will stop doing it entirely. All that time spent setting up, running around, and healing is entirely on gens now. No one bothers setting up a boon at the start of the game, instead they just get on gens.
If 'gens fly' now, that's 100% the reason. The only secondary objective survivors have ever voluntarily chosen to go do was deleted completely.
As with dead hard and various other changes over the past year, killers got exactly the change they asked for, it just isn't what they wanted.
This argument is resting on a few faulty assumptions, though.
The main thing it's resting on is the assumption, stated outright so I hope you'll agree I'm not putting words in your mouth, that healing was overall a net positive for the killer. Survivors had their strong sources of healing, and in exchange, killers got the time investment the survivors were putting in to heal as generator slowdown. The issue with this is that healing speeds were so fast before that the killer wasn't getting anything at all from it. Injuries weren't slowdown or pressure, because survivors could and would heal themselves faster than a teammate doing it multiple times per match, with the only real investment required being at least one CoH and a medkit with good addons.
Another thing your argument seems to be resting on is this statement that the devs "made healing suck", which I find an odd statement considering the devs didn't even touch healing in general at all after reversing course from the PTB. The only healing that they changed at all was Circle of Healing and medkits, neither of which were even made to suck, let alone comprising the entirety of healing. Even self healing wasn't made to suck entirely after the nerfs, it was just made no longer faster overall than having a teammate do it without serious investment, which is pretty obviously how it should be.
Now, I do want to make clear that I don't personally think it's a problem that survivors stay injured, even if I don't actually see that bearing out as the reality in either my killer or survivor matches- survivors can heal up perfectly well, and they do in a majority of my matches. I don't think that staying injured would be a problem, though, and I think even the strongest 'stay injured' tools in the game don't fully overcome the inherent risk of playing minus one health state. I just think it's wild how many people seem to think healing became completely impossible just because you can't specifically self-heal faster than having someone else heal you as easily anymore.
To put my two cents in on the gen speed argument, if your gens are flying (and it's not the survivors bringing busted toolbox and perk setups), it's probably a lack of macro pressure on your part. That may not be your fault, good luck applying macro pressure as Trapper on Mother's Dwelling, but it is probably what's happening.
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Not really. The biggest problem child perk right now is probably Made For This, which could use a light nerf in the form of removing its Endurance element, because that's too much. Everything else... mostly fine.
Oh, this wouldn't really be a nerf meaningfully, but Adrenaline shouldn't directly affect Freddy's power, it's messed up that it still does.
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I'm always surprised to hear that other players are having such a hard time getting healed in solo queue. My experience is more likely to include my teammates wasting time following me to heal me rather than everyone stubbornly refusing.
You only really need to self heal once or twice in the average match, in my experience, and there's plenty of good sources for that. It takes some time, obviously, healing yourself shouldn't be as fast as someone else doing it and it certainly shouldn't be faster, but I really don't think it's had that detrimental an effect on solo queue.
Heck, right now we have a lot of good perks that help you stay injured. Made For This, Resilience, Iron Will... healing isn't unapproachably hard and it isn't a hard requirement against a lot of killers anyway.
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Part of the problem is perception, I'd say. Boons aren't actually in that bad of a spot- two good ones, one decent one, and one bad one is a pretty alright spread of perks.
Hexes, though, are struggling a bit more- but it's not as bad as people say. You'll have people saying that the only viable hexes are Devour and/or the Plaything/Pentimento combo, but that isn't really true, it's just that the other hexes have more of a risk associated with them. Now, that's not not a problem and I'd love to see hexes get a little bit more of a boost to raise their RNG floor a little, but it's far from them being unplayable.
Haunted Grounds, Blood Favour, Retribution, new Crowd Control, Face the Darkness, and Undying are all perfectly usable, they aren't bad at all. Running the risk of losing them before they do anything is rough, but it is still just a risk and what the perks do is worth it in a lot of cases.
In general, what hexes and boons both suffer from is the kind of meta-brain-poison that leads people to immediately discount anything that isn't the most powerful tool they could possibly bring. Why bring a pretty good perk like Shadow Step or Blood Favour when they'd take up a slot you could put an incredibly good perk into? That's the kind of issue that it's harder for developers to fix, so I'd say even the buffs those perk types could use wouldn't be enough to fully fix the overall problem because of it.
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Absolutely, if she isn't 3-genning.
Once that's addressed, which I'm holding out hope will include the kinds of changes Skull Merchant needs to embolden her other playstyles, things will undoubtedly improve even if they aren't perfect.
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This seems like an overreaction. The turrets could be tweaked a little bit so they're harder to stack in the same spot, but bare minimum you have addons to track them and weaken their effectiveness. In exchange, you get an incredible map traversal tool, a little bit of stealth, and a damaging M2 that looks like it might be one of the stronger ones in the game, at least in terms of spawning a projectile hitbox instead of moving the killer.
The killer having counterplay doesn't mean they're SWF bullybait. It just means you have to play around that counterplay.
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I had one idea for Clown, which I think would even make a good replacement for his instadown addon if BHVR ever decide it's not worth trying to balance it, lol.
The addon would have this effect:
- While reloading, the Clown can see auras of all survivors within [x]m of himself.
That's it. Just a nice, straightforward tracking tool that helps turn Clown's downtime into a recon mode. The radius couldn't be too long or Clown could spam-fake reload to have permanent uptime, but large enough that you can catch survivors leaving loops or on the other floor of buildings.
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Not to be rude, but was there some kind of point to this post?
Everyone does know Skull Merchant needs changes, and we also know that BHVR is already looking at both her + 3-gen holding in general, so this kind of persuasive argument isn't really necessary- everyone's already on board and changes are already being designed.
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As long as the killer is fun to play and a design that can be buffed without causing problems, I don't much care if it's weak when it hits live servers.
We also haven't had three awful killers in a row. Singularity is great, he's just hard to play.
(I'd go as far as saying Knight and Skull Merchant are still well designed, or at least designed such that they could be fixed, but I can't deny they are causing problems.)
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I don't think complete immunity is the way to go, but I do think those two perks could be given anti-haemorrhage components.
Say...
Resurgence: When you are unhooked, in addition to the perk's regular effects, you clear the Haemorrhage status effect.
Solidarity: In addition to the perk's regular effects, if you reach 50% heal progress from healing someone else, you clear the Haemorrhage status effect.
That way the perks do their job without being harmed by the status effect, but the status effect can also still affect the survivor who brought them if they are hit by it when not actually using the perks- when healing between hooks for Resurgence, and when being healed by someone else for Solidarity.
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It'll be old original characters that haven't gotten a tome yet, based on the way this change was talked about at the time.
Unless the Alien license holders agreed to a licensed tome, anyway. Then it could be that. Default assumption though should be that it'll be an original character getting the tome imo
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I don't particularly think any of these need a nerf, at this point. Then again, Prove Thyself didn't either, so community feedback does put a bit more pressure on some of these even if they wouldn't warrant it otherwise.
At most, I'd maybe see Windows getting a shorter range, but even that's a stretch.
Well, except for Adrenaline getting its Freddy-specific element removed, but at this point I wouldn't even call that a nerf so much as necessary standardisation.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506299#Comment_3506299
And we're positive they haven't canceled the changes?
Last we heard about them was the recent reddit AMA, which wasn't that long ago. I doubt they've been cancelled.
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Why would that mean they'd need to be removed...?
It should surely mean that they need changes, which we already know they're getting.
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I agree with removing de-pipping, it doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore.
Caps on bloodpoint categories is generally fair, though, especially the altruism category. If you only stick on the objective and do nothing else, you kinda should get fewer points than players who do more. There's gotta be some kind of incentive not to be glued to generators the whole trial, and right now all we've got for that is bloodpoint categories and rift challenges.
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@shalo said:
I'll have to skip all the Singularity challenges, Biopods are always EMPed before I get a chance to use them.
Replace them! You can shoot at a disabled Biopod to destroy it, then replace it with a non-broken one. You have to be pretty quick on the draw, but if you're on a favourable map you should absolutely have time to replace it and target the now EMP-less survivor. You're also gonna want to space your Biopods out a little, so your last resort can at least be to chase a survivor into range of a second Biopod once they've used their EMP.
This challenge isn't too hard, you just have to get a mostly decent match as Singularity. Map offerings might help with that- go for any of the open maps with trees on them, those trees are great Biopod spots. McMillan is probably the best realm, but a couple others do work.
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I've never understood that take at all. She has some surface-level similarities to Predator, from what I've seen, but she pretty clearly isn't a failed license. Far too much effort went into her for that.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3499679#Comment_3499679
The general problem i have is. The challenge should be achievable by playing the game "normally" and working with teammates, healing teammates, and doing generators and generally trying to escape. Once the challenge gets away with that. Or that the "normally" aspect becomes so difficult that you can't play normally. An example is this one, or another one they had before was to like, use some perk and finish repairing 4 generators in a single game. So you had to actually be on 4 of the 5 generators as they finish. Yeah, doing gens is part of the game, but in order to make sure you are on 80% of the gens that get done means you can't play "normally" to get it.
Which this general archetype of challenge is. You don't have to go out of your way to get it and normal gameplay will fulfil it.
(In general, again. Two minutes in one match is a lot.)
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As others have said, I personally use "overtuned" when talking about something that is too strong, but isn't so much so that it's genuinely overpowered. Just... a bit too much as it is.
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There's two I want from RE but only if they can get the legendary skins to change the way the powers look - but if they did, the Twins into Angie and Donna Beneviento would be fantastic, as well as the Knight into Lady Dimitrescu and her daughters.
Elsewhere, I'd like to see some DC characters make it into the game as legendary skins for other characters. Trickster into Joker and Legion into Punchline, mostly.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3499538#Comment_3499538
If the challenge was to do it in multiple games. Sure, but 2 minutes is a long long time for a single game. Typical game of DBD lasts like 8-10 minutes. So you have to be in the terror radius but not chased for potentially 20-25% of the match? There is no way you can do that legit in any consistent way.
If we're moving from criticising the archetype to criticising this one specific version of it, yes, I'd tentatively agree. I haven't tried it yet, but it does sound too high where the other version of this challenge aren't.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3499379#Comment_3499379
yeah it does. Good challenges for survivors are things like:
- Stun the killer X times
- Blind the killer X times
- Use X perk and do whatever the perk is (but not in terrible ways like the teamwork ones)
- Escape as X Survivor
- Unhook X Survivors must be safe unhooks
- Pick up X survivors off the ground
- Do X generators
- Do X coop actions
Those types of things that are things that you actually would normally do in a normal game. Yeah some people might argue that blinding is less useful then gens, but flashlight saves are a thing and you can still be useful while doing the challenge. Bad challenges are:
- Hide within X meters of the killer while not in a chase for Y seconds
- Hide in killer's terror radius for X minutes while not in chase .
- Any of the glyph challenges that give you debuffs
- Escape while your teammates escape, you must remain in the trial while they escape (these are dumb because you have to wait for you teammates to leave first, you should be able to just leave and you get credit if any teammates escape)
- Loot X chests
It only encourages you to be useless if you assume that the only way to tick it up is to go actively hide and do nothing else.
But you don't need to do that. You can progress generators in the killer's TR and it isn't even always a risk, and that's just doing generators, not any other action.
You literally just need to be in the killer's terror radius. It can be a little inconsistent but it doesn't require you to be useless.
Though again, I'm talking about the challenge archetype here. I do think two minutes in one match is a little harder to do that way and might encourage players to go follow the killer around.
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I'd say so, yes. It depends if you play killer or survivor- I'd say killer gets more out of this chapter than survivor, but it's not nothing on either side.
Killer gets a pretty strong killer, one incredible perk, one decent perk, and one kind of okay perk. No real failures here.
You do get two survivors which is a higher density, but the quality of the perks isn't quite consistent. Leon has two strong perks, one of which is a very fun active perk in Flashbang, and one decent perk to help track generators. Jill has weaker perks that are all still usable, and Blast Mine is an especially fun perk as well.
All in all a pretty solid all-rounder chapter, imo.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3499366#Comment_3499366
A hot take of mine is that they should encourage you to be less useless a lot more than they currently do tbh. It strains the weakest role in the game and makes it even weaker as it is rn
This challenge archetype does not encourage you to be useless, though.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496801#Comment_3496801
I think the issue is how actively useless you have to be to complete these ones TBH. I dont like that Solos are so weak and then ecnouraged by the archives to go and crouch in the TR for an ENTIRE 2 minutes.
That's what I'm saying, for the majority of these challenges you don't have to be useless. You don't have to go crouch in the terror radius, you just need to be in it and not in chase. That happens way more often than you'd think.
Two minutes in one trial is pushing it, though.
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Fully agreed. Skull Merchant has a fun and interesting kit that, with changes, could be one of the most versatile and strategic powers in the game.
I'm glad you gave her a shot! She's a lot of fun. I'd also recommend playing a hyper-aggressive trap playstyle by chasing survivors into drones you set earlier, and equipping Enduring + Spirit Fury to disrespect pallets. With the right addons (sadly all purples), it's surprisingly effective.
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Wraith with Shadow Dance addons + Brutal Strength. Maybe Fire Up if you really wanna commit but idk that it makes that big of a difference.
The best part about doing it that way is that if you add a few select other perks (Eruption, Nowhere To Hide, maybe a few others), you actually have a pretty solid build overall.
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Two minutes is a lot, but I find a lot of people overstate how hard these challenges actually are. You're in the killer's TR a lot more than you'd think you would be unless you're unlucky enough to face a stealth killer, it doesn't require going out of your way to follow the killer and urban evade in a corner or something.
For two minutes in one trial, though, you may have to be more proactive about it. That is a really high number for one trial, kinda too high.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496345#Comment_3496345
Killer-mains always dismiss the amount of time it takes to find a totem and bless a totem. It's as if that doesn't even exist when they take that into consideration.
For survivor-mains, finding a totem and blessing a totem makes CoH virtually worthless, as shown by the pick rate.
Pickrate is a great benchmark to tell if survivors/killers see perks as useful.
Where did this idea of mains come in? I actually use boons occasionally when I play survivor, because I think at least two of them are pretty strong.
Are they the top tier of things you can bring? No. Are they worth bringing? Sure, they fit in a few different builds depending on which one you're using.
Pickrate reflects absolutely nothing but overall community perception. It goes the other way, too- not only are there assuredly good perks with low pickrates, there are objectively and provably bad perks with extremely high pickrates; Self Care was one of the top three most picked survivor perks last time we got official data.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496330#Comment_3496330
CoH is not beneficial, it was nuked from orbit, to the point survivors don't see it as beneficial. It's currently sitting at 1.8% usage and you can see that's it's still dropping in usage.
That's just pickrate, it only loosely correlates to the perk's strength.
As I said, it's a shame that old CoH was seen as the benchmark, because it makes the other boons look worse than they are and means people discount the current version even though it's perfectly usable. Hell, it's even pretty strong- even when situational, a 100% healing speed increase is nothing to sneeze at, just look at We'll Make It.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
People have been asking for years for a 'secondary objective' for survivors.
BHVR tried this with boons, but, entity forbid, those actually were beneficial to survivors, and we can't have that now. So they got effectively removed.
Now they're trying it with killer powers, where investing time to interact with the killer's power is time not spent on gens. I suspect this phase probably won't last long either.
What people really want with 'secondary objectives' is doing something besides gens that provides no benefit to survivors and no detriment to the killer, and it then has to be mandatory because there's no incentive to do it. Essentially it's expecting a mechanic that forces survivors to be afk.
I feel like this is a little misleading.
Your two examples are off, mostly. Boons as a whole haven't been touched since their introduction in Mikaela's PTB, iirc, and even three of the four we have also haven't been touched. What happened was Circle of Healing was nerfed due to it being overpowered- not just because it was beneficial, it's beneficial now, but because it was too strong. Boons as a whole probably were an attempt at a secondary objective, and it's a shame they had to live in the shadow of CoH for so long, because now people will claim they're "effectively removed" after the one clearly OP one got nerfed to just be pretty good.
Second, I don't think it's accurate to say there's a "phase" of killers with powers that force interaction, because BHVR just kind of do those every once in a while. Pig was the first, Plague was probably intended to be one, Pinhead wasn't part of the recent batch... it's just a thing they do sometimes. They probably will do other power ideas soon, I don't think it's directly related to the idea of a secondary objective- maybe at most they're more inclined to think of powers that push for interaction these days, but that's not quite the same.
That being said, I'm not necessarily defending anyone who calls for a secondary objective. I just think it's important to be accurate.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496218#Comment_3496218
Chess suggests that she actually requires thought...
Yes, which is why the mocking nickname caught on. People believe it to be incorrect, and considering people generally only think she's capable of 3-genning they are correct that what they're thinking of doesn't require any thought, so they're using a sarcastic nickname. That's where it came from.
To the wider topic, just so I'm not entirely derailing: I don't agree, partially because what's described has already existed in the game with Pig for a long time. Powers that survivors have to interact with are totally fair game, and the three killers in question have flaws that lay elsewhere. Different flaws, at that- Sadako is (potentially, still early days) overtuned where Singularity is perceived to be undertuned.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496213#Comment_3496213
Because her actual nickname is "Dull Merchant" and it irks Dull Merchant players that she's so boring so they're trying to rebrand her.
Didn't work for Coke, won't work for Dull Merchant.
It's because someone said on twitter that Skull Merchant is like playing chess. Both nicknames come from people who dislike the character, neither of them are flattering.
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We already know they're planning something, though we don't know when it'll be.
I certainly hope it isn't a Freddy-tier rework, though. On top of that not being necessary at all, it's fundamentally a bad idea and they should never do it again.
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As much as Sheva deserved more of a spotlight, she is objectively a less important/referenced character in the RE canon compared to Rebecca. Sheva was a side character in one game, Rebecca was side character in one and main character in another.
The other thing to consider is that full characters get perks. Maybe BHVR just had better ideas for what perks Rebecca could have- and considering the perks Rebecca got, I'm inclined to believe that.
(Though it is also worth mentioning that Rebecca's source material, Resident Evil, is one of the most beloved and influential video games of all time, and Sheva's source material is... Resident Evil 5. Granted, Rebecca's also in RE0 and that's where most of her actual character comes from so it balances out a little, but still.)
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@Blueberry said:
"The lack of information still both feels bad for good players"
I disagree. The information feels fine for actual good players in my opinion. The people typically complaining are the bad players.
" if it is needed then BHVR certainly will"
That is a massive IF. Given their track record which is extremely bad, I don't feel they have a good understanding of their games balance to even know "if" it's needed. I feel like this would be trusting someone you know to make the right decision when they've made the wrong decision 90% of the time in the past.
"when the information we're talking about here is useless in the hands of poor players and would only be nice to have for good players."
I mean we did already say the game's not balanced around good players. So that would be buffing people that already have an unfair advantage.
"Take this thread's particular example- I can't conceive of a world where half a Kindred basekit is actually going to require killer buffs to compensate. It just isn't going to have that kind of impact, at worst it'll prevent the handful of matches you might have where someone goes to second stage or dies without a save because you got particularly disorganised solos."
This would essentially make the team way more efficient on gens in a world where gens are already going too fast. The HUD realistically already shows this anyway. 1 on hook, 2 on gens, 1 on nothing. The one guy on nothing is obviously going for the unhook in 99% of the situations unless it's some random new person with sub 50 hours hiding in a corner which isn't really representative of anything.
"What half a basekit Kindred would do is bring solo queue to a point where it's a better basis for overall balance, and it'd make solo queue feel a little less frustrating as players don't need to give up a perk slot to get super basic information. Those don't necessarily translate into killers directly getting weaker. A great parallel here would be the DC bots just added- those are undeniably a survivor buff, as players no longer get 1v3s they can't possibly win because someone DCed on first down, but it only does that. That change didn't require killer buffs to compensate, and half a Kindred basekit wouldn't either, imo."
I think that isn't a fair comparison at all. A DC is objectively a downgrade so putting a bot in is just fair. Your example is a buff, however small you want to elude it to. You're nearly equating it to a QoL like the bots, of which it is not. It is just objectively more information.
I still don't understand why you feel this basekit half Kindred would fairly be needed for solo queue. Are solo queues unfairly losing or "having a bad experience" specifically from lack of information? I don't think so. All the frustrations that currently exist in solo queue are skill and matchmaking ones, not balance ones in my opinion.
Btw I appreciate the cordial discourse, it's rare on here.
I think it's unfair to label everyone complaining as simply being bad players. Certainly some are, but the quality of an idea shouldn't come from those who argue for it, it should come from the idea itself.
But, even if we set aside the game-feel argument for a moment, there's still the balance idea. I don't actually agree that the game is balanced around bad players, it feels more like it's currently balanced around generally decent players who don't choose to play 100% optimally all the time, which is a different concept - there's a difference between default Claudette self-caring in a corner, and a decent player that likes doing archives and gimmick builds, after all - but the fact remains that balancing the game around even decent players means acknowledging the elephant in the room that is SWF.
Now, SWF is made into an unfair boogeyman a lot of the time, I won't deny that. Your average SWF is not an unbeatable menace that is guaranteed to give you a miserable game, and I won't pretend they are, but I will state the claim that the average SWF is still inherently affected differently by balance changes to even an above-average solo queue player. Regardless of exactly how skilled a player the game wants to be balanced around, they still need to push for solo and SWF being affected more equally by balance changes, because regardless of skill level they currently aren't.
It doesn't take skill to say "I have -insert teamwork based perk-" or "I'm going for the save", and so those two specific callouts need basekit equivalents for the whole game if balancing is going to be properly effective.
As for the efficiency on gens argument - this is a separate argument to the balance one, to be clear, and... I think you're maybe right, but I think you're exaggerating the effect of it. You don't exactly lose a ton of gen time when two people go for the same save because they didn't have Kindred-- it isn't nothing, and it'd add up if it happens more than once, but I would personally say I don't think it's game-changing. That is why it's a buff, btw, and not just a QoL change like that challenge tracker they added- I am open about it being a solo queue buff, I won't deny that. I just don't think it's a buff that means killers must necessarily be compensated in some way, because all it does is remove the hypothetical bottom of the barrel when it comes to match quality.
By which I mean- it won't make your average opponents actually better than your average opponents now, but it would raise the floor of how below average they can be, if that makes sense?
That's why I equate it to the bots- an early 3v1 shouldn't be considered a genuine advantage, but the absolute bottom of below-average resistance a team can put up. The bots are a buff in that they prevent this from being the bottom, but they don't actually raise the average. I'll grant they have less effect on the average match than solo queue buffs, because they won't even ideally be in the average match, but the overall principle remains the same. Getting an extra hook state or the opponents losing slight generator efficiency because nobody equipped Kindred shouldn't be considered a genuine advantage, it should be that bottom of the barrel; value you got because something went wrong, not because you played well or your opponents played poorly. If your opponents still play poorly, that info isn't going to help them still, so that's why I think it's an acceptable buff.
Regarding killer balancing, too, we're kind of at the point where there's not much that killers need in terms of sweeping basekit buffs. I think what BHVR would probably do is look at which killers struggle in response to any given survivor change, and look at tweaking them specifically in some way. I think that would be just as effective and acceptable as basekit changes, but I think people overlook that kind of thing in a sort of, one-for-one "they got something we should get something" kind of attitude, which I think is a little narrow-minded.
Any time, cordial discourse is why I joined the forums, lol.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495324#Comment_3495324
"but since whether or not the player in question loses isn't relevant to my argument here"
You're saying it's not about winning and it's about not knowing information on your teammates but I'm saying that isn't actually the case. I'm saying the lack of information is being used as a scape goat for playing badly and why it feels bad.
The HUD is currently giving a significant amount of info. More than enough to make good choices. More info shouldn't be needed for a good player. I feel like we're trying to give so many bumper lanes for bad players to make them win games they shouldn't be winning.
"solo players must necessarily be given some of the information the game is balanced around them knowing. Otherwise their chances of winning actually will go down."
I would be okay with this. I'm just referencing as I did in my first post that they are highly unlikely to bring killers to that level necessary if we did give all that info to solos equal to swf.
"Basekit Kindred and the ability to see your teammate's perks in the lobby + match details mid-game are the last things needed for that, imo."
As said before, I just see them doing this and then doing nothing to killer to bring them to swf level. If in a hypothetical world they actually did, then I'd be fine with this.
Right, but whether or not people are trying to use the lack of information as an excuse for poor play is irrelevant. The lack of information still both feels bad for good players and is presenting a balance problem insofar as you can't balance around SWFs while they have basic information solo queue lacks.
(I'm not referring to really advanced callouts here, but just the ability to say what perks you have and who's going for a save, which my suggestions there would remedy. SWF are always going to be better than solo and that's fine, but there is a baseline solo needs to meet that it current doesn't.)
For your last point, if it is needed then BHVR certainly will. I think too many people just assume it obviously would be, when the information we're talking about here is useless in the hands of poor players and would only be nice to have for good players.
Take this thread's particular example- I can't conceive of a world where half a Kindred basekit is actually going to require killer buffs to compensate. It just isn't going to have that kind of impact, at worst it'll prevent the handful of matches you might have where someone goes to second stage or dies without a save because you got particularly disorganised solos. Those matches don't happen frequently and it's pretty obviously fine to lose them in exchange for the game's overall health improving.
What half a basekit Kindred would do is bring solo queue to a point where it's a better basis for overall balance, and it'd make solo queue feel a little less frustrating as players don't need to give up a perk slot to get super basic information. Those don't necessarily translate into killers directly getting weaker. A great parallel here would be the DC bots just added- those are undeniably a survivor buff, as players no longer get 1v3s they can't possibly win because someone DCed on first down, but it only does that. That change didn't require killer buffs to compensate, and half a Kindred basekit wouldn't either, imo.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495313#Comment_3495313
Never have I played a solo queue match (and like 95% of my games are solo queue) and thought I lost because of balance problems or lack of information. It was either me or my team making bad plays. If either of us are making bad plays, we should lose. I don't see the issue with that.
"but solo also feels bad because of actual game design elements outside of your control but inside BHVR's control"
This feels bad is actually from them playing bad, not a lack of information. This is lack of accountability on their part and making excuses.
I think the game is currently balanced around a solo queue group of like sub 300 hours each.
I've had a few matches like that myself, but since whether or not the player in question loses isn't relevant to my argument here, neither are those anecdotes.
There is no amount of good play that will overcome the fact that you just don't know certain critical things in the basekit currently. This was even more the case before the HUD update; there was no amount of good play that would make up for not actually having any way of knowing what your teammates are doing at base, and needing to run perks to remedy that is exactly why it felt bad, not a solution to it feeling bad.
Again, though- if the game is balanced around a good SWF, which seems to be your implication and is something I'd mostly agree with, solo players must necessarily be given some of the information the game is balanced around them knowing. Otherwise their chances of winning actually will go down.
Basekit Kindred and the ability to see your teammate's perks in the lobby + match details mid-game are the last things needed for that, imo.