jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495282#Comment_3495282
"Have killers needed sweeping basekit buffs as a direct result of the survivor HUD? Not really"
I kind of disagree with this premise. Do they struggle most games because most survivors play badly? No. Do they struggle against against good players? Yes. Only winning when players play bad regardless of your play even if that isn't the majority of games doesn't tell me they're in a good spot. I care about good vs good matches as that's an actually objective measure of game balance. I understand we're just going to fundamentally disagree here though, that's fine.
"anywhere problems do arise it tends to have more to do with items and perks, or map design"
I mean this has been since the games existed and still does today. This is most matches as well. Like 70% of the maps are very unbalanced for example.
"The survivor HUD was just a good addition that didn't really end up making killers weaker."
I think it did some. That said, if you do believe that it didn't, then that means the real issue with solo queue never had anything to do with information, it was simply bad players making excuses. The biggest advantage of swf isn't info, it's guaranteed good players. By that criteria it means bringing solo queue to swf is an impossible feat since it's a skill issue. Which also means at the end of the day all this Kindred change is for is making bad players win more, not to actually get them closer to swf level.
I think the game tries too hard to make people win games that they don't deserve to be winning.
Killer players only struggle against good survivors if you define "good survivors" as players who are capable of making the killer struggle.
If you define "good players" as those who have a general idea of what they're doing and how the game plays, no, killers of comparable skill don't struggle against them. Now, I'll grant that you aren't at all guaranteed to get players of comparable skill to yourself - I've had multiple seven-thousand-hour players in my games recently and I personally only have a fraction of that - but that's not a balance issue, it's a matchmaking issue.
As for your last paragraph there, it's not about winning. It is completely impossible to actually make solo and SWF equal, I agree with that, but solo also feels bad because of actual game design elements outside of your control but inside BHVR's control. They can't force your teammates to make good decisions, but they can address a lack of information that the game must necessarily balanced around you actually having. SWFs exist and can't be removed, so it must be assumed that a good chunk of the knowledge SWF pass to one another is known by all survivors otherwise balancing is impossible.
TL;DR winrate isn't everything and solo needs balance changes that aren't directly related to whether those players actually win their matches.
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@Blueberry said:
I mean last time we pushed for the HUD under the assumption that by bringing solos closer to swf we would then buff killers closer to swf and that basically never happened, so I'm a little hesitant to support this based on the track record.
I feel like a lot of people leave off the "if necessary" part of that sentiment, though.
Have killers needed sweeping basekit buffs as a direct result of the survivor HUD? Not really, killer's not exactly struggling in general and anywhere problems do arise it tends to have more to do with items and perks, or map design. The survivor HUD was just a good addition that didn't really end up making killers weaker.
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I agree. The HUD changes helped in this regard, but I still think that basekit Kindred would be the final nudge solo needs to make saves functional.
Not even for really coordinating saves, just to ensure that someone only ever goes to second stage because of bad decisions, not because of lack of information.
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How do you mean? There may be a few stumbling points but I think the power design behind Sadako right now is pretty clear. How does it translate to the devs being clueless?
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Better, undeniably, but it's difficult to tell by how much.
There's a lot more thought and skill that goes into playing her now that she has to be more aware of what survivors are doing instead of focusing one guy down, which I like. The Reiko's Watch nerf does suck and I'm against that, but that's really my only complaint so far.
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@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491931#Comment_3491931
Lord almighty, the effort to fanboy is strong. You were already going to hit them regardless. You were already going to wound them regardless. They enter a locker to avoid the hit and force Sadako to grab them, knowing that it's worse for her.
You don't like the punished word and will use that to avoid actually building an argument? Fine. I'm still waiting for an argument that defends grabbing being worse for Sadako. Can you defend that?
How on earth is it fanboying to not consider a hook a bad situation for the killer? Yeah, you don't get your two stacks of Condemned, but you do get a hook, and that's much more valuable. It directly progresses the survivor towards death more severely than the Condemned, and it can't be undone.
I literally don't care if a survivor hops in a locker in that scenario. I'm getting a hook, that's more valuable than a single proc of Condemned application. No argument is needed here because the killer isn't being pushed into a negative situation.
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@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491922#Comment_3491922
You don't understand. If you're chasing a wounded survivor and they know they're going to get hit they can just enter a locker. Sadako is punished for grabbing instead of hitting them down. She will not build stacks. When she hooks him, it will not build stacks. And to top it off, the tape they are carrying is destroyed. Amazing!
...That is not a punishment. That is a hook. You need those to win in most cases. You are still coming out ahead, and just aren't getting maximum value from that situation.
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@frozzenk said:
It's comical how tapes can now just be picked up and delivered 5 steps later to the nearest TV and the way to fix this is to use an iridescent addon. This just baffles me. To people who are defending her rework (for some unknown reason, fanboyism maybe?) I'd honestly like to see your argument to defend this.
While you're at it, please do try to defend how she is punished for grabbing someone. As you don't build stacks on grab nor hooks, if someone just enters a locker they are bypassing your power.
I'm maybe not the best person to defend that choice as I'm kind of on the fence about it, but it is worth mentioning that they do at least have to walk to the nearest generator in most cases, which might not be that close. Still, to address the change itself, I'd assume they didn't want removing Condemned to be as difficult considering the intent was for it to build up quicker on average, which does somewhat make sense.
Like I said, though, I'm on the fence. I'll be playing Sadako on Live to better form an opinion on these changes, but I suspect that's one change that probably will need looking at.
Also, you are not punished for grabbing someone. You get a down when you grab someone, which in 99% of cases means you get a hook. That is not a punishment, a hook is better than a stack of Condemned.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489670#Comment_3489670
The intent is likely make Condemned unviable as Survivors don’t like it. Which is being done. Any changes for the people who actually playing her are an after thought at best.
Condemned should be reworked to something other than a mori. Also after all this she STILL has her lullaby, stealth killer with a lullaby.
If the intent would be to make Condemned unviable, they made some weird decisions. Holding tapes for insurance no longer being riskless, removing the ability to insert a tape during Sadako's weapon cooldown, making Condemned apply globally instead of to one person...
In short, if they wanted to make Condemned unviable, I'm not sure why they buffed it.
Agreed on the lullaby, though, that's still unnecessary.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491737#Comment_3491737
Yeah you're not seeing the problem.
Sadako has NO WAY of knowing who has a tape and who doesn't. The small risk of maybe getting 2 meager stacks of condemned is nothing compared to the huge reward that is knowing you cannot be condemned by any means until she finds you to which you can run and put it in the TV next to you(You'll have plenty of time if you hold W the second her lullaby appears on screen).
No way other than basic map awareness and human eyeballs? You can see what TVs turn off, and knowing where survivors are in a general sense is one of the big skills you learn as a killer player, not to mention that if they're nearby you can see the tape in their hands.
There's also info perks, and I thiiiink she has addons for this? Don't quote me on that, I'd have to double check.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491732#Comment_3491732
Whats the slowdown from taking a tape early? Spawn next to a tv then take a tape, work on a gen while someone else gets chased and you're set.
Well, what are they doing with that tape?
If they're just holding it, they're at risk of getting Condemned applied if Sadako interrupts them. That's where the killer's agency and skill expression comes in.
If they're transporting it to a TV, that is slowdown. It isn't much per tape, but it adds up, and it's passive.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491662#Comment_3491662
They removed getting a stack of condemned when taking a tape in the PTB and have no intentions on bringing it back since they didn't mention they would add it back.
Yeah? I must've forgotten about that.
That doesn't change the overall take, though. Either they get Condemned from teleportation, or they pick up tapes and you get either slowdown or the chance to apply Condemned + break the tape.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491653#Comment_3491653
Then whats the point in getting a tape in the first place or even using condemned...if they'll never be condemned or even have it as a risk then why pick up a tape lol
I'm not sure I'm following, sorry. They will be Condemned, because they're picking up tapes. One stack for picking it up, and if they aren't depositing it straight away, another two stacks for being hit, and then they have to start over.
Or, they do deposit it straight away, which is slowdown for you because they're not doing generators for that time. It may not be all that much time per tape, but it adds up if they do it multiple times.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491604#Comment_3491604
okay but you still have to find them to actually get that hit off and if she doesn't find a specific survivor carrying a tape in 3 teleports then that survivor wins and thats still a payoff. The 'risk' is still EXTREMELY negligible either way and for most won't outweigh the benefits early game esp now that she'll be essentially playing without add ons every game since her add ons effects are...yeah
That's where Sadako's main skill expression is, map awareness. You shouldn't have to be teleporting to find them, you should have at least some idea of where they are already.
That's not something that's only just true now, by the way, that's the biggest thing to learn for Sadako ever since she was introduced. She is a heavily map awareness dependant killer.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491627#Comment_3491627
If they pick up a tape, they are at risk of their Condemned being snowballed
Not really. If they're injured and holding a Tape they can just hop in a locker and force the killer to interrupt them rather than hit them.
I mean, sure, but I feel like getting a hook out of them supposedly denying you value from your power is... not exactly a downside.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491612#Comment_3491612
You can kind of snowball a Survivor's Condemned now
Only if the survivors let you. Any decent survivors are not going to let this happen.
How do you imagine they'll stop it? They'll have to pick up a tape at some point because Condemned is guaranteed. If they pick up a tape, they are at risk of their Condemned being snowballed.
The only thing they could do is routinely take and cleanse tapes between other actions while Sadako is obviously doing something else, but that itself gives some pretty consistent slowdown that adds up over the course of a match.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491424#Comment_3491424
Can I ask how in any way? They get the same stacks they did before if you had committed to the chase now they just get to instantly cleanse it somewhere else quicker than before
Because you don't have to commit to the chase. If they're holding a tape for insurance, and they go pick up another tape that they hold for insurance... you can hit and run them for more Condemned gain and another tape destruction.
Tapes basically have to be used as soon as they're picked up, which means one of two things. Either they're doing it regularly to cleanse a small amount of Condemned, in which case that slowdown builds up, or they wait to do it until the last second, which means that interrupting and ambushing them is strong to the point of it being potentially deadly.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491171#Comment_3491171
Exactly, it isn't anything new.
There are a ton of things that have been in the game for a while, that have recently become increasingly problematic. Similar to how Circle of Healing redefined the way Survivors value healing, the gen-kick meta redefined the way Killers value 3-gens. The Knight and the Skull Merchant were released into this perfect storm, and I'm predicting now that they are the catalyst for change in how Killers mentally approach a match.
As a whole, I don't think people want to be playing 60-minute DBD matches, and that is largely the deterrent from this play style becomming wildly popular. ...but I also know this community to be very stubborn. If Killers are really struggling to win games, they will turn to "3-gens, 60-minutes is all I can spare to play with you," and they will justify that behavior on account of "this is the most optimal way to play Killer, blame BHVR."
That is how I see things unfolding, anyway. I could be way off the mark, but it is still something to consider when deciding whether or not to nerf SM or address 3-genning.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491335#Comment_3491335
I think her main appeal for dropping drones on gens, rather than between them, is the Exposed status effect. It is low skill, high value, whereas placing drones for Stealth requires skill AND is reliant on other factors.
What would you think if the drones were solely used for stealth and tracking, the amount of drones she has is relative to map size, and then Survivors are exposed whenever they hack a drone?
She'd be Plague adjacent, in that Survivors effectively choose how they want to die. They can let SM build an undetectable network to traverse, or they can nullify her stealth at the cost of temporary exposure.
I made a post about how I'd change Skull Merchant in the feedback section a few days ago, and it did involve removing the Exposed- though I wouldn't make those other changes. I'd basically propose buffing stealth, increasing claw trap timers, and giving her a big addon overhaul so she has addons for all her potential playstyles - chase, stealth, hex defence, claw trap haste - without needing to invest purple-level price points on the usable ones.
Her power is modular and versatile even on the live servers. I'd propose leaning into that while lessening how threatening the drones are for generator defence. How you play SM should be informed by what addons and perks you bring, and she does have that versatility already.
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@the_voices said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491557#Comment_3491557
Load into a match as the new Sadako. Survivors take the tapes from the gens they work on. Now don't have power for the rest of the game. That is the problem here.
Load into a match as new Sadako. Survivors take the tapes from the gens they work on. As soon as I hit one of those survivors, their Condemned goes up and they have to get a new tape. If they hold onto that one, I hit them again and their Condemned goes up and they have to get a new tape.
Survivors cannot hold Condemned gains hostage anymore, because holding a tape is now actually risky. It's insurance against passive Condemned gain at the price of putting yourself at risk of much higher Condemned gain for being caught. In addition, a healthy but fully Condemned survivor can't cleanse their Condemned in Sadako's face while she's right on top of them anymore.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491464#Comment_3491464
There were many players that played her without the Ring Drawing and didn't need to slug for her condemned play style to work. That was a skill expression because they had to chase survivors into TVs, predict when to teleport, keep track of all condemned stacks and figure out TV the survivor would have to run to. That is ALL GONE. What is left is: "Just teleport, bro. It won't do anything but hey..."
They literally Freddied her! Like, why would you play her now? There is 0 reason for anyone to pick her over any other killer. She doesn't have anything special about her anymore. Teleporting is nothing unique, playing for condemned moris will no longer be a thing regardless of how you try to achieve that, her good addons were butchered, her chase power was and is still a steaming pile of garbage and they reduced her lethality even further with the tapes no longer applying condemned stacks to the whole team when you hook someone. That is 100% a bad decision. Not only that. It is downright stupid! Yes BHVR, I am calling this decision stupid.
This is effectively a nerf for anyone, who invested time into mastering a weak killer to make them stronger. If this is what BHVR's reworks are going to be like, then please for the love of the entity, don't EVER rework a killer again. They already have a problem named Wesker and now they make it worse. The less killers there are that anyone would even think about playing, the more the other killers will be played! And that is the best case scenario. Worst case, people are going to stop playing, which means less money for future content.
Really, BHVR messed up horrendously on this front and they deserve the negative feedback they will get these next days. Next time, save yourselves some time and just make number changes. If you are going to destroy a killer regardless, then that is the easier way.
Worst case scenario for what you're describing, the same level of effort and skill goes into predicting where survivors with tapes are. That's how you play for Condemned now and it is unambiguously buffed.
Sadako doesn't have a chase power, so it can't be a steaming pile of garbage. They nerfed her ability to mindgame and I agree with criticising that, it's my one real issue with the changes.
They literally didn't Freddy her because she has the same power. You may engage with it differently, but Freddy's power was changed on such a fundamental level that the only connective tissue between what he had and what he has is the distinction between awake and asleep survivors- and even that distinction means something different between versions. Like I said, it's more equivalent to Leatherface and Doctor; the same pieces of the same power, but rearranged a little.
I do not agree with your conclusion (obviously, lol). I think pretty much everything about Sadako except for her demanifest mindgames was buffed, her skill expression shot up massively (with the potential downside of raising her skill floor considerably), and she'll be overall a stronger, smarter killer than she was on live or on the PTB. Time will tell what additional changes may be required, but people are being far too quick to discount the smart and impactful changes in this dev update.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491464#Comment_3491464
It feels weird you criticize teleporting mindlessly (something that would only make you waste time playing pre-PTB Sadako, as you obviously needed to go to the TVs that had survivors nearby and you had to take into account the ridiculous 100 sec cooldowns) while applauding the global Condemn change, which actually REWARDS you for spamming teleports mindlessly. This new update killed her chase power by nerfing Reiko's for no reason and removing Bloodlust from Demanifested, which demotivates her players to try and mindgame with it, and the specific changes announced today make the slugged playstyle even stronger. What's the point in hooking anymore? For old Sadako hooking next to a TV meant adding condemned stacks to two different survivors, PTB Sadako at least had the "hooking gives condemned to others" which promoted tunnelling, but changing that without going back to her old mechanics just switches it from promoting tunneling to promoting slugging.
You now have a killer with no chase power and her teleport/Condemn power can still be completely turned off too easily. You will struggle much more than every other character with getting downs, and the mechanics (aside from making her feel mindless and completely unlike the movie version) reward you for letting people on the ground.
I'm sorry you had to play against a slugging Ring Drawing Sadako, it's a really annoying playstyle, but not everybody played her like this and this update butchers the killer entirely for everyone, and consider that to fix that one problem the Ring Drawing nerf was all that was needed. This change will only make her kill rates skyrocket, make Slugdako even more prevalent, and the (few) Sadakos you'll see from now on will either be much more annoying to play against or downright unable to do anything at all, depending on your team.
How is slugging stronger? You don't get anything for doing it, at least in regards to her power. Ring Drawing doesn't apply Condemned, the tape is removed on hit so you aren't getting any more Condemned from them when they're picked back up... you just get normal slugging value here. Am I missing something?
Sadako's basically never had a real chase power, and that isn't a requirement either. I'm on board with criticising the addon changes there, I think those were unnecessary, but it's not as though mindgaming in chase with the passive flickering was ever her main draw or intent, it's more of a nice bonus. She's just not a chase focused killer and never has been, that's fine.
I've never played against Ring Drawing Sadako, that is a completely baseless assumption lol. I play as Sadako far more frequently than I play against her regardless of build.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491478#Comment_3491478
Current Sadako when you teleport, the survivors who get hit with condemn are highlighted on the HUD, meaning you can see "oh, these survivors are the ones here".
They made condemned "easier" by making it the main part of the power which don't get me wrong, I like the idea but in execution it just feels wrong.
Also I wasn't just talking about the addons, the fact demanifesting ends chase means survivors can infinitely vault windows unless you stay manifested which is needlessly punishing imo
Isn't that requiring more skill expression, though? You can't just aimlessly teleport and see "oh, survivors are here", you have to know where they are already and teleport with intent. That's requiring more skill, not less.
No comment on the second part, if it's just personal taste. That's fair.
As for demanifesting ending chase... yeah, I'm not sure. It does feel annoying, but it is also kind of how it should work, considering other killers. One could easily argue that requires more skill expression too, of course, but I don't know that I'd go that far.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491464#Comment_3491464
Using TVS for information on survivors
Playing Condemn playstyle without slugging
Manifestation/Demanifestation mindgames (They are still there but they got nerfed)
Just a few things worth mentioning
And I disagree I think this is a fundemental difference, their powers work completely differently now.
I'm not sure what you mean by using TVs for information on survivors, could you elaborate?
Playing for Condemned pretty obviously got buffed, considering now you can both prevent a survivor from removing their Condemned stacks and apply more of them on hit.
The Manifestation/Demanifestation addons being nerfed is pretty much the only genuine downside I would agree with here, but I don't think it's fair to say that lowers her overall skill expression at all, let alone considerably.
And the power obviously isn't fundamentally different, all the pieces are still there. It's much closer to the Doctor and Leatherface reworks; same general power with the same general mechanics, but the way you engage with it changed a little.
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I've seen a lot of people say that new Sadako has less skill expression, and I don't understand that even slightly. If anything, if there's a problem with Sadako after these changes, it's that she requires too much skill expression.
You have to showcase a ton of map awareness to utilise Sadako properly. You need to know exactly where the survivors are, when they've picked up a tape, which direction they're running to insert that tape, and you need to position yourself to actually take advantage of those things. The changes that make tape interruptions matter boost her skill expression massively.
Genuinely, what skill expression did Sadako players even lose? I don't consider slug-for-Condemned to be particularly skill expressive, and nor is teleporting aimlessly within ten seconds of emerging, so... what's lost here?
The changes aren't perfect but they're definitely an improvement, and to compare them to Old Freddy is especially off the mark. That killer fundamentally changed, Sadako hasn't.
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@Shadow_legend_69 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491417#Comment_3491417
The biggest issue I have is how easy it is to remove tapes and in turn condemed, this did nothing to address the fact that survivors only have to walk 3 feet to remove half their condemed and made it more difficult to spread more condemed to other survivors because once survivors figure out that placing a tape is a simple as logging in to the game they’ll understand that there is no risk to picking one up
It may not be as difficult, but it's much more risky. You can't do it whenever with a complete sense of safety like you can on live and you could on the PTB, because if Sadako interrupts you, that's it- the tape is gone, and your Condemned goes up, not down.
Those scenarios where you'd catch up to someone fully Condemned but healthy, you'd hit them, and they'd put the tape in during your cooldown while you couldn't do anything about it, they're gone now. That can't happen anymore.
The scenario on the PTB where you just pick up a tape for safe, easy protection against passive Condemned is also gone, because carrying that tape is risky now. If you're caught, the tape is destroyed.
Sadako is not going to be perfect after these changes, but don't underestimate just how impactful it's going to be for tapes to be destroyed on basic attacks. That's pretty huge.
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Pretty positive. The tapes being destroyed on hit is a really impactful change, imo, it makes holding on to a tape for passive insurance basically a detriment to the survivor now.
Plus, more teleport is great, big fan.
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I don't know, I think these changes might bear out pretty well.
Think about it, survivors now cannot just hold tapes to be completely safe from Condemned. If Sadako finds them, not only is the Condemned gain from a hit larger, but the tape is also destroyed, so they can't go remove the Condemned in that chase, they have to be 100% safe from Sadako before they can even start the process again.
I don't think Sadako's gonna be perfect after these changes, but there's some big stuff in this dev update. Destroying the tape on hit and being able to teleport more are pretty big buffs. It's definitely worth testing it out on live and seeing where it goes from there.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490657#Comment_3490657
The main flaw with Skull Merchant's design is in regards to how it functions and interacts with the environment and players.
Let me explain this the best I can.
When you look at Skull Merchant at a base level, it is incredibly simple. You have a Killer who places AOE fields that provides buffs to herself and debuffs to enemies close by. The AOE fields can be disarmed and debuff the enemy. AOE fields can be further modified with addons. On paper, this does not sound that bad, the issue is that DBD has a wider variety of complex and nuanced interactions between the Killer and Survivor.
Skull Merchant's entire power relies on placing AOE fields via Drones. Of course you can place these anywhere and their effectiveness have a wide variety of factors to consider when placing a Drone. Retaining back to what I mentioned before, with it debuffing enemies, it would naturally make sense for these Drones to be placed around Generators since they are an area where you a guarantee Survivors will go to since it is their objective to repair them.
Of course the discussion would end here, but there is also another thing you have to mention.
While the Drones can provides the undetectable status as well as moderate "anti-loop" from a loop, the Drone takes awhile to activate it's effect, and Survivors are given plenty of time to react to how they are used within a loop, which often results in them leaving a loop. Skull Merchant, upon their release, had borderline nothing goings for her within a chase.
She was later updated to receive a stacking Haste effect whenever a Survivor disarms a Drone and receives a Claw Trap. Survivors who have a Claw Trap on them would also instantly break a pallet upon vaulting it.
The situation that is created with this change is Survivors NEED to disarm a Drone for these effects to activate, Survivors are realistically not going to disarm a Drone in the middle of the map that nobody is going to run into. Survivors have to be obstructed to feel the need to disarm a Drone... so why not place them where the Survivors objective is?
As I mentioned before, you can get consistency by placing Drones at Generators before that change was made, and afterwards her core design still enforces placing Drones at the Survivor's objective. Her core design was flawed since it could never provide something substantial within a chase but provided something substantial when defending Generators, it was only a matter of time before people optimized her core design's gameplay loop to what it is now.
You could argue on and on about it being Shotgun Speakers or Adi Valente Issue 1 being problematic (which they are), or how the perks being used are carrying her, but the issue will always be her core design. She was never a chase Killer, it was never her design, she was meant to be a Generator defense Killer, and the only way to realistically change that is by completely reworking her power.
There's a couple flaws in reasoning here.
First, I'll go over the quickest and simplest mistake here- survivors do not need to hack a drone for you to get Haste. The Skull Merchant receives that Haste bonus whenever a survivor is tracked on her radar, which happens when they have a Claw Trap on and when they're standing in an Active Drone radius. Simple mistake, common misconception, but it does undercut this idea that SM NEEDS to place drones on generators because that requirement for them to be disarmed isn't actually there.
More generally though, I get the sense a lot of your reasoning here is based on the idea that the only viable place for Skull Merchant's drones is on top of generators, and that's faulty logic to rest on for two reasons. The first is that it's not actually true on live servers right now, but more pressingly, the second is that we're talking about her core design, not what she can currently do on live. Her core design includes stealth- if they buffed that, any Skull Merchant who wanted to use it certainly wouldn't be putting her drones on generators, she'd be putting them between generators so that she can leverage them for Undetectable and survivors would have to go out of their way to disarm them.
A similar principle applies without having to assume any changes to her balance. A lot of people seem to think that the only way you possibly even COULD use Skull Merchant's drones in chase is to place one down in a loop while you're actively in chase with that survivor already, but that's pretty obviously a bad idea on the face of it, given how long it takes for the drone to be placed, enter the Active state, and then how long it takes for something like Lock On to actually build up. The far better way of using her - right now, this isn't hypothetical - is to place the drones in key loops and between generators ahead of time, and then chase the survivors into them.
(There are flaws here, in that this playstyle is most useful when you use expensive purple addons and I personally don't think you should have to invest that much for her to have a viable chase power, but we're talking about core design rather than the hard specifics of her live balance.)
It seems like the people who think her power is fundamentally flawed and can never be balanced are incapable of viewing it as anything other than generator defence, when that's far from the only thing it's capable of doing even on live servers, let alone with some small-to-moderate number changes. Misconceptions and misunderstandings seem to lay under that take all the time, like the idea that Haste only comes from Claw Traps or that playing SM for chase would require placing drones mid-chase instead of setting them up ahead of time.
I hope it's clear that I'm not saying Skull Merchant doesn't need changes, because she does. What I'm saying is that her core design is far from a failure, and isn't so flawed that it can't be salvaged. It isn't even all that far away from healthy, in my opinion.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491096#Comment_3491096
1/8 perk completely countering 1/4 perk, without any interaction between two.
A perk being meme/weak doesn't really mean it should be allowed to completely disable single killer perks at only half a survivor's cost.
Again, it's No Mither. The cost there is pretty damn high, plus the survivor is playing with only two other perks until the endgame if they're using Plot Twist here. That's a massive investment just for the chance of disabling one killer perk.
Plot Twist isn't even weak, for the record, it's a good perk. This just isn't a strong use for it.
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I've said this before, but the fact that someone in your lobby is both running No Mither and used their one charge of Plot Twist at the very start of the match is more than a good enough trade for losing Corrupt early.
It's such a niche scenario that doesn't even wholly benefit the survivor that brought the two perks, I really don't think it's a problem.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3491067#Comment_3491067
From what I recall, Singularity received changes post PTB and even after he was released. However I’ve always had a feeling someone at BHVR doesn’t like Sadako based on her original and proposed kit. Fingers crossed.
All killers have, and even PTBs that didn't have killers in them received changes before they hit live. That's just expected and par for the course at this point.
That's what I mean, in case it wasn't clear. The idea that a PTB would hit live without tweaks hasn't ever actually happened, to my knowledge.
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@appleas said:
If they still go ahead with the ptb changes without tweaking anything, it goes to show that the PTB feedback section is a farce. The majority of the feedback from there acknowledges that her PTB form needs some changes.
Has that ever happened? It's definitely not happened for any PTB in recent memory, unless I'm missing something.
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I don't think endgame addons/perks are inherently useless and I really don't understand why some people do.
There's nothing wrong with having an addon that only works in the endgame for just the same reasons there's nothing wrong with having perks that only work in the endgame. They're meant to be leveraged for a comeback, or to decisively confirm a victory. BFFs on its own may not seem powerful, but combined with some perks it can be pretty useful.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490751#Comment_3490751
Actually, that is not right. This is a down grade of her chase potential. Right now, she has an inbuilt haste effect. By removing the lock on from her drones, you automatically remove that as well.
The main problem with SM is, that she forces survivors to leave gens way earlier than they normally would. If they don't do that, then they get hit / downed. This is what makes her 3 gen strategy so oppressive. Apart from always knowing when what gen is being worked on.
Lock On is the Exposed effect, not the Haste effect. The Haste comes from them being tracked on her little tracker pad, whether it's from being inside an Active Drone radius or from a Claw Trap.
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@MikhailVictor said:
They should geniunely disable DC penalties for a week or two and see which killers get most DCs (esp. at the start of the match), maybe it'll hint at their design fuckups.
Not really. Well designed killers like Hillbilly, Legion, and Wesker all get DCed on pretty frequently in my experience, and it's hardly as though there's design fuckups happening there.
People just DC when they're mad or they don't like something, when there's no penalty. It says nothing about the killers in question, and everything about the players themselves.
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It'd perhaps be useful if you elaborated on why you think her core design is flawed.
From my perspective, her core design has the potential to be one of the most interesting we've had in a long while. I can't think of another killer whose kit is as versatile and modular as the Skull Merchant's, and it'd be a damn shame to just throw all of that out because of the 3-gen problem.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490278#Comment_3490278
I do not think she is designed to be stealth killer. it would be weird for her to be better stealth killer then wraith. weird case of power-creep.
She wouldn't be. She'd just be capable of performing as a stealth killer. She would lack the lethality of Myers and Ghostface, and she'd lack the speed and invisibility of Wraith.
A better comparison would be Pig. People want Pig's stealth buffed, and that wouldn't make her a better stealth killer than Wraith. It would just make her capable of using stealth.
That was also only one of the things I wanted to encourage on the Skull Merchant's part. At this point I'm seriously not sure what your overall point is, I apologise if it's me missing something.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490265#Comment_3490265
so you want skull merchant to have 8 drones base-kit? With 8 drones base-kit, you can put a drone on all 7 generator and inflict oblivious on every generator. that buff her stealth but now you can 7 gen the entire map. I think your better off playing wraith or a killer that has undetectable status. at this point, I am confused.
...What?
No, I want her to be able to set up the drones she has and actually use Undetectable because it doesn't fade out as quickly. I also only want that to be an option; as I said, Skull Merchant's power is modular and versatile. I want her to be able to do that if the player wants her to, and I want her to be better at chase, better at utilising claw traps, and just a little weaker at protecting generators and hexes.
You're aware she doesn't have to place her drones directly on top of generators, right? If you're playing her for chase even on the live servers, you're usually looking to place them between generators, and in important structures.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490257#Comment_3490257
oblivious and undetectable was at its max-power level on that match. there is no point in buffing it because it is already at its peak power-level. The survivors countered nearly perfectly with speculator gen-rotations. it was impressive play. the legit only aspect that they did wrong in that match was missing skill-checks which extended the match. nothing else. everything else was near perfect.
I'm not sure I'm following your point, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to ask for some clarification.
So, you say that there's no point buffing her stealth because it didn't help the SM three-gen, but I don't want her to use the stealth to three-gen. I want her to use it like a regular stealth killer, across the entire match, to sneak around and get the drop on survivors. I don't want her to use it in a tight area where everyone obviously knows where she is because she's alternating between three close-together generators.
Why is it relevant, then, that it wasn't any help in the three-gen video?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490248#Comment_3490248
they were staying exposed because healing is too time consuming vs that type of gen-lock. the map layout was to unfavourable for survivors to heal efficiently and progress generator. as a result, the team committed to not heal and ignore drones. Exposed and undetectable/oblivious had a low impact on the match outcome. The bulk of that match was kicking gens, missing skill-checks and team eternal working out how to break the gen-lock on that map. torment creek is like farm map. farm maps loops are unfun to play on as killer so 3 gen is recommended.
...Yes. Undetectable/Oblivious has a low effect on 3-gens in general. That is why I want to buff it, and the other things that Skull Merchant can do that isn't 3-genning.
I am not aiming to improve Skull Merchant in areas that are relevant to that video. I want her to be worse at the things that video showed.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/384363/fixing-the-skull-merchant
one question. why is the exposed a problem? Watching otz video on competitive skull merchant game. Just look UI for survivors.
everyone is injured. The expose is not doing anything in 45-50 minutes. everyone is already exposed. something else to notice is that nobody has claw trap at 45-50 minutes.
I explained why- it stands to reason that 3-genning typically involves leveraging the threat of Exposed, and in addition, I have personally found the Exposed to be a finnicky and unreliable mechanic that doesn't really mesh with the better ways of playing Skull Merchant. Removing it should, ideally, cut down on your average 3-gen match, and it'll allow things like stealth and other builds to be more viable because that threat isn't there to make it overpowered.
I wouldn't put too much stock in that Otz video, by the way. Even setting aside the usual caveat of it only being top tier players, your other comment here makes it seem like you think my proposed changes should help in that scenario and, uh, no, I want to prevent that scenario. I want Skull Merchant to be better at doing other things, and worse at doing specifically that.
Though, for the record, mizark is right in saying that those players were probably staying injured because of the Exposed. They're oneshot either way, so why waste time with healing up?
(Also she, not he.)
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489670#Comment_3489670
Well, whatever they are doing, it is clear that it will make this killer even less appealing to play. Players won't pick her up for the 25% of a condemned stack any time she teleports, her "reworked" addons or her immunity to stuns as long as she is demanifested. The devs just made her incredibly boring by removing any skill expression she used to have and made her problems even worse. Slugging is now an even better option than before! If that doesn't scream: "bad design" I don't know what does.
And for the people that did play her before, it is cruel to take away everything that made this killer unique and replace it with a shallow and watered down version, that is ultimately less enjoyable than before. They basically give her the Freddy treatment, where regardless if she's stronger or weaker than before, she will no longer be unique, which begs the question: "Why? Why should I play Sadako over any other killer, that does basically the same but much better?"
None of that translates into asking why BHVR would intentionally choose to make her weaker on purpose, because they did not make that intentional choice. They were aiming for improvement and fell short. That is what is relevant here.
I am not defending the PTB Sadako changes. That isn't what's happening here.
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This is the problem with trying to boil every single update down into a strict nerf or a strict buff. The answer to your question is... they aren't! They're reworking her!
It's not even that the intent is to make her weaker. The intent is to make her stronger! They just need to change a few things because it's not quite hitting the mark on the PTB, and that's exactly what the PTB is for. This way of looking at things is deeply unhelpful and actively obscures what's going on.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487212#Comment_3487212
I didn't catch the original reply to someone else, so that's fair.
I checked the other reply, and that didn't address my comment about BT being 'basekit' already because everyone knew to bring it, nor did this quoted reply to me. The only fair argument I've seen is "Survivor's got 3 perk slots instead of 4", which I mentioned in my post that you didn't address. Also I would argue new BT isn't strictly better because the most egregious turbo tunnelers can still hit a Survivor with little to no difficulty even with 10% haste. But there is a fair argument to be made against 'bog standard M1 Killers' tunneling and BT buffing greatly against them.
Now if you are using the version of BT prior to 4.7.0, which only worked with the Killer's TR, then yes 4.7.0 'fixed' BT. I'm however talking about 6.1.0 specifically changing most things for the worse (although the basekit T1 Brutal and STBFL I think are fair buffs since it mostly helps 'bog standard M1 Killers', but not 90s gens without 65s or longer hook stages, as that buffed camping).
I disagree with the notion of having more agency when tunneled now. 'Basekit' BT gave Endurance for 12s, or (4*12) 48 normal meters, whereas truly basekit BT gives Endurance and Haste for 10% and 10s, or (4.4*10) 44 normal meters. That is less distance with less anti-tunnel capabilities to stack with it as well. The only change I think would be needed is anti-tunnel Endurance not Deep-Wounding Survivors. If they can stack that many forms of Endurance that are lost on doing a single CA, let them, just also remove collision during anti-tunnel Endurance so they can't bodyblock. I don't think any form of anti-tunnel Endurance has significant value while it can't be activated while Deep Wounded by any means (particularly the Pinhead add-on and Legion, for the worst of examples). It's easy to chase and hook anyone else, and with a hook rescuer there has to be someone else to chase. Heck, I'd even be fine with removing basekit BT/OTR on kobes if that was the case (maybe not removing it from Deliverance/Slippery Meat though, argument to be made).
TL:DR 6.1.0 buffed tunneling on average, as pre-6.1.0 it was 0-4 layers (realistically 1-4 as everyone would at least bring BT, if nothing else), and post-6.1.0 it is 1 and only 1. There is an argument to be made for in comparison to much further in the past (which is not what I'm arguing against), but when limiting the discussion to 6.1.0's changes, tunneling was buffed.
So, first of all- Borrowed Time was a popular perk prior to 6.1.0, but you couldn't fairly call it "meaningfully basekit" unless you self-select only to the very top tier of players, and even then they didn't bring it all the time. The fact of the matter was that you were at the mercy of whether or not your random teammate thought to bring BT, and that's not a roll of the dice you were guaranteed to win whatsoever.
Second, prior to 6.1.0, Borrowed Time did not give Haste the way the basekit mechanic does. Even if you're hit immediately, you're operating with two degrees of a speed boost to get you far enough away from the killer that you're probably at a loop, and that's where you start having agency. That putting you in Deep Wound is definitely annoying, and I personally support changing that mechanic to not be true Endurance for that reason, but there's no way of conceptualising that as anything other than better than you would've been before 6.1.0. There's a difference here between "not perfect" and "meaningfully a buff to tunnelling", and we are very squarely in the first camp.
I went back and checked your original post to see where this idea of four layers of anti-tunnel came from, as there were only ever two and one of them wasn't in your control, and if you're going to count Dead Hard and the syringes as anti-tunnel then you must necessarily count every other perk that isn't actually anti-tunnel but might help you out while you're being tunnelled. How about Sprint Burst? That wasn't changed and works just as well. It's certainly not anti-tunnel, just as Dead Hard certainly wasn't anti-tunnel, so there's absolutely no reason to count one and not the other. Why not Made For This? Lithe? Quick and Quiet? None of these are anti-tunnel and only might help you, exactly like Dead Hard-- with the difference being that none of them are as overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered as DH used to be, of course.
So, then, if what we had before was 0-2 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike) and a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled, what we have now is... 1-3 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Basekit Endurance + Haste guaranteed, then Borrowed Time to throw off killers waiting out the ten seconds and Off The Record's other two effects more than its Endurance) plus a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled.
Honestly, reading that back as I type it, I think we should acknowledge the other anti-tunnel tool that your teammates can bring, Guardian. Nobody does, I'm aware of that, but it is technically a potential source of anti-tunnel if we're counting Borrowed Time.
This is pretty clearly an objective improvement over where we were before, regarding tunnelling. The RNG is gone, you now cannot be downed immediately no matter what, and there are tools that can help mitigate how powerful tunnelling is. It's not perfect, and it could stand to be improved a lot, but that's not the argument we're discussing here- the argument I'm contesting is that tunnelling was buffed in 6.1.0. It wasn't. It was nerfed, albeit not by as much as it could've been.
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@BlueMoonBRUHMOMENT said:
There shouldn't be a "In defence of bloodlust".
This conversation was sparked because of the introduction of MFT....
MFT and Bloodlust are not comparable. Bloodlust is for when you have trouble downing a survivor, MFT is for when you want to extend chase.
Quite literally the polar opposites.
ALSO: bloodlust is lost when you hit a survivor or break pallet. So if bloodlust happens, a survivor can just loop a really strong pallet and break bloodlust.
This opinion has been around a lot longer than MFT, I'm not directly responding to that comparison. If I were, I'd have been talking about that comparison, lol.
This is about the wider opinion, and why I've disagreed with it for longer than MFT has existed.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487998#Comment_3487998
Expecting people to read the OP is mistake #1 on the forums.
They say the definition of insanity, etcetera...
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488004#Comment_3488004
I was actually referring to them more in a general sense. People can utilize it at 5 gens for an easier game or during endgame to almost guarantee they get a kill depending on the mechanics.
Gotcha.
Well, they're definitely harder problems to fix, but I don't think it's completely impossible. It'd be best to start from the position that tunnelling, camping, and especially slugging should exist, but they should be legitimised and defanged as tools that killers can utilise, but that survivors can answer. We saw something close to that in 6.1.0, when the most egregious form of tunnelling in the game was removed and survivors started having more agency in those chases, but I do think it could be improved further. I'd probably look in the direction of either converting the basekit Endurance into something similar to the Mettle of Man effect, or just replacing it outright with a lack of collision, ensuring a killer can chase them if they want to but there'd be no shortcuts to circumvent either the basekit protection or any anti-tunnel perks that are in play.
For camping, I like the devs' idea, as I said! I'm gonna hold out on commenting too much on camping until after we've seen that system in action, because I like the broad idea but I don't know enough specifics to finetune or critique it.
Slugging I think is closest to where the balance should be for tactics like this. If one person's being slugged, the team can respond to that without requiring the use of perks or even really all that much coordination, but there are still plenty of anti-slugging perks that survivors could bring if they want the extra oomph. There's some edge cases like bleeding everyone out for four minutes, which I'm not sure how to fix, but slugging overall isn't in too bad of a spot.
Tombstone Piece has just gotta go, lol. It's too strong, there's no justifying it. I would like to see that happen as part of a wider Myers overhaul to bring him more in line with modern killers, but if it has to happen first I wouldn't complain. It's busted.
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@DavidHypnos said:
This may be off-topic but I’d just like to get your opinion on this. You mentioned that looping for a 5-gen isn’t healthy overall but how is that in comparison to games that end abruptly for a survivor because of tunneling, camping, slugging, tombstone myers (which I’ve seen a lot of lately), etc.?
As a survivor, I can’t imagine giving up on a chase just because the killer is putting all their focus on me. Bloodlust will help that chase, but sometimes those games that go by without a single hook are due to bad gameplay and decision making on the killer’s part rather than anything in the game that’s broken. As a killer, I never tunnel or camp and know when to quit focusing on a specific survivor. On that note, there are times that it may seem like I camped or tunneled because the survivor/s simply made bad decisions or played poorly. This is true of me when I play survivor as well. Sometimes my game ends very early not because I was being tunneled or camped, etc. but because I made a terrible mistake or did something stupid.
Just to note, I am totally in favor of bloodlust, and I honestly believe a lot of the arguments we’ve seen against it lately is just people responding to the plethora of complaints about Made for This.
I guess my overall point is… there are plenty of things in this game that I believe aren’t “healthy” but that help one side get an advantage especially when they’re in a predicament ie infinite looping, tunneling…. So how do we balance between these things so one side isn’t favoring more from specific gameplay mechanics over the other without asking the other side to relinquish something?
For instance, bloodlust and window blocking exist not to help bad killers but to help them deal with looping which can be problematic - imo it does this without tipping things too far in the killer’s favor so that a skilled survivor can still gain an advantage without abusing the loop. So when it comes to something like tunneling, which I believe is an example of something that’s unhealthy, how do we create a mechanic to do what bloodlust does to combat at without denying killers their power?
I know I took this in a different direction - I just want to get some takes from people I believe are very level-headed.
To be clear, I assume you're referring more to the accidental versions of tunnelling and camping via poor survivor gameplay? In the same way that killer's poor gameplay can make trials stall out, a survivor's poor gameplay could result in tunnelling or camping without the killer actively going out of their way to do it?
I'd say I don't think those two problems are necessarily on the same level, if so. When a survivor makes a poor decision, that's still giving their teammates and the killer more things to do in a general sense. If your teammate runs into the killer too soon, well, now you're doing something other than sticking on generators, because you have to go save them and then ideally take the killer's aggro. That's active gameplay, versus the five-gen-chase causing stagnant gameplay.
Similar for camping, if a survivor's making a mistake by looping around the hook, stuff is at least happening- though I do feel for the survivor left hanging there, of course. I like BHVR's proposed solution of giving the survivor Deliverance if they're stuck there too long, I think that would push things along in a way that doesn't completely neuter the killer.
If you are asking about intentional tunnelling and camping, my answer would be different, but I won't go into detail there so my response isn't too long lol
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487991#Comment_3487991
I am just asking to removing this mechanic for forever. Most of maps are fine. If there is some problematic maps, they can be re-balance again.
I just don't love when killer abuses bloodlust on weak - mediocre loops when you outplay them with mind-games.
Right, but my post is not about problematic maps. That isn't why I think Bloodlust is a good mechanic.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
People love to call haste effects op (MfT mostly) but then they are okay with Bloodlust.
Bloodlust was needed when infinite loops was in game but this is not case anymore.
This outdated mechanic should be removed from game because we don't need it anymore.
I mean, I laid out a couple reasons I think it's a worthwhile mechanic. It's kinda the whole thing this post is about?