jesterkind
jesterkind
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Clown's the cream of the crop when it comes to countering Made For This. Running between loops? Purple bottle. Actually hugging loops tight? Purple bottle and yellow bottle. Made For This isn't a concern when you're playing Clown- or at least, the haste isn't. Technically he doesn't have anything for the Endurance, but that's less of a concern anyway.
Almost every killer has something, though, and even the ones that don't are mostly fine because it only makes M1 looping harder, not insurmountable.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470569#Comment_3470569
By old I mean endurance old, not distance version.
When you use DH, you are supposed to die, so you don't care about exhaustion. It would be amazing with MFT.
It wouldn't be that good with distance DH version.
Ah, I see.
Even then, it'd be more awkward and less of a good synergy than people claim. It'd be better than distance DH, though, for sure.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470219#Comment_3470219
That's simple, you would play them together.
Not old Dead Hard, then you'd be cannibalising your Exhaustion. It pairs well with current Dead Hard because you can only use that twice, meaning you'll have chases where you don't have it available and MFT picks up the slack.
Any other Exhaustion perk, including old DH, and you're not able to use either perk to their fullest because of the shared Exhaustion condition.
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@LobbyDodgerLeonidas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470467#Comment_3470467
But I think there would have been no motivation to make that change unless the kill rates were significantly impacted. They wouldn't want to upset the survivor player base with those changes. Of course we don't know, it's just purely speculation. Only BHVR knows
No motivation? They've been steadily addressing longterm problems over the past year or so since 6.1.0, they'd definitely have gotten to one of the biggest longterm problems in the game. Until recently, ultra fast self healing was only the second biggest problem in the game because of map design.
I'm assuming you wouldn't make this argument in reverse- that they never would've implemented the solo queue HUD without some killer change necessitating it. As an argument, it doesn't really work either way unless you assume BHVR do the bare minimum or only favour one 'side' of the playerbase- and as this argument doesn't itself prove either of those things, it's resting on nothing and can't really be compelling.
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@LobbyDodgerLeonidas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470405#Comment_3470405
Those stats were pre-HUD and pre Deja Vu buff/MFT/Resilience meta. The landscape has changed vastly since then. The HUD itself obviously affected the kill rates or they wouldn't have made those sweeping healing changes
I think that's a stretch. The healing changes they made were needed for a very, very long time, they hardly popped up as problems only after the HUD was implemented.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470338#Comment_3470338
Better to have 3-4 niche applications than none at all, if you ask me.
It's not three to four niche applications, though. It's one niche application that only three to four killers could even use- and of those potential four, only one gets any real use out of it whatsoever.
It is a loss, obviously, but it's a pretty miniscule one. Franklin's was hit harder by this change, and even that wasn't hit particularly hard.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470303#Comment_3470303
I mean, it worked on any killer with a Special Item as a part of their power. It was pretty useful on Wesker and Nemesis and I'm sure it would've been quite good on Singularity if the behaviour wasn't changed in the same patch.
I thought it already didn't work on those killers? I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the vaccine and the first aid spray already didn't count. Or maybe it was just those chests not counting, I'm not sure...
Either way, that upgrades it from one mildly useful and overhyped application to... three mildly useful and overhyped applications, which doesn't really change my overall point.
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I feel like this is kind of an overreaction. Only one killer got an interaction removed, I don't think it's fair to say that this perk was 'ruined' or 'nuked' because one specific killer can't use it to do a super specific kind of overrated thing anymore.
Hoarder suffers for the exact same reason that perks like Ace in the Hole or Plunderer's Instinct suffer. If chests and their loot were more worth going for, Hoarder would be a perfectly usable perk, but nobody has any reason to care about chests right now. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's going to be very difficult to meaningfully buff it while chests and their loot are in the state they're in.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469813#Comment_3469813
He got a whole mechanic basically pointed out to be redundant by his addonpass and they just had a sunken cost falicy of keeping it to the point he has 4 addons 1 of purple rarirty that literally does nothing because its so hard to overheat now. He wasnt nerfed to death but they coulda approached him a hundred times better than they did. (Also they even tried to nerf his engravings) but yeah.
Also...this was a thing.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NWYKJBWI4WIL/screenshot-20230702-133359-chrome.jpg
(Compare his addon pass to any other we've gotten. Even the higher tier killers like spirit and nurse still have a good variety. Spirit honestly they need to look at again)
I'm not making any wider points about his balance, the point is that he's not an unusably nerfed killer and so there's nothing wrong with this challenge. He has bad addons, and the recent uptick in map clutter has not helped him, but he's not so bad that there's anything to criticise about giving him challenges in event tomes.
Hell, he's not even one of the weakest killers at this point. It's not like this challenge is to 4K with Sadako or Trapper.
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I feel like this is the danger of repeating the exaggeration too much- people start actually believing it as though it's literally true.
Hillbilly was not and is not literally nerfed to death, he's just clunkier and weaker than he needs to be. He's still 100% viable and playable, and there's nothing wrong with having a challenge that requires playing him. Heck, if there's challenges for playing him, that means he's getting cosmetics and/or lore, which is good attention for a killer to get.
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As others have pointed out, including yourself, his addons need nerfing, and that would still overall be a Blight nerf. The survey had a little text box prompting you to explain what nerfs you think the killer you picked should get, so rest assured that BHVR are going to see how many people primarily have issues with his addons and not his basekit.
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Skull Merchant has a surprising variety of builds, in my experience. You've kinda got to accept that she's not going to be an S-tier killer no matter what you do with her, but with that in mind, her kit can do a pretty decent amount.
If you like any hex perks, she's good at defending those. It's a similar principle to defending gens with her, but it actually stands a chance of winning you the match because you're being active and actually getting hooks. Devour is a staple here, but you can make almost anything work. Simple execution: Set your drones on your totems and play normally otherwise, using the drones as an early warning system for which totems are being cleansed similar to Lifeguard Whistle Demogorgon.
Personally I'm a big fan of playing her as a chase killer. You'll want to bring some of the high-tier addons for debuffing/buffing with the active drone radius, like the aura-reveal or the Hindered, or giving yourself Haste and action speed, those ones. Then, bring Enduring, Spirit Fury, and the two perks of your choice; I like Deadlock and Brutal Strength for a slowdown-light build, but you could bring anything there. The way you play it is setting up drones not just at generators, but near strong loops, so you can push survivors into that area and manually activate the drone just before they run into it.
What I'm hoping for with her suite of changes is that they'll make stealth more viable on her. Her kit should be able to do it, but the values are just too low as it stands.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467435#Comment_3467435
I'm gonna reserve my judgment until I see what they actually do, but considering the entirety of their answer, my expectations are low that the change will make a substantial difference. I'm excited about the Naughty Bear stuff though, I always thought it was weird that BHVR never had Naughty Bear in this game outside of a charm and it's like their other most known and enjoyed IP.
The distinction isn't if it'll be a huge change that helps Trapper immensely, the point of contention is if they're changing him at all. People are saying the devs have stated there are no changes for Trapper because his stats are fine, even though the first part of that is wrong and the second part is misleading.
The Naughty Bear skin is pretty hype tho no disagreements there lol
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467316#Comment_3467316
I hear you. It's been a topic of conversation across our teams, but at the moment we do not have significant gameplay updates planned for Trapper. Partly because our data shows that his kill rate is pretty much where we want it to be (on average, even at high MMRs) but also because he holds a very important role as one of the simplest and easiest killers in the game. He's great for onboarding new Killers and we don't want that to change too much.
That said, we do have a small but very fun update in the works for our terrifying flagship killer! Those of you who watched the Anniversary broadcast may have seen the segment about the Naughty Bear Legendary skin coming for Trapper (which will have its own unique Mori). This will ship later in the year, along with a killer update.
That's exactly what they said about Trapper in the AMA. They don't have significant updates planned for Trapper so outside of the Naughty Bear Skin and Mori he's probably not going to get any better than he currently is as where he is what they seem to be shooting for in regards to him from the outset.
Yeah, and that says they have a "small but very fun" update, and that the Naughty Bear skin will ship "later in the year, along with a killer update". That's the answer where they say they have changes planned for Trapper.
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I appreciated the text box for explaining why and how a lot, too. That's nuance that'd get lost with just a dropdown menu.
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There are two things I'd like to say here:
1: Made For This is not an agreed-on overpowered perk, it's deeply contested and up for debate right now. The opposing opinion can't be discounted out of hand, it is just as valid as an opinion.
2: They literally are changing Trapper, the AMA answer everyone is citing literally said they have a small killer update planned, why does this keep coming up like this
To the wider point, it'd be interesting to know what stats BHVR track, for sure, but I don't know that there's any compelling reason they must tell us. It'd satisfy idle curiosity but there's no real cause for suspicion that should be addressed by telling us, in my opinion.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467218#Comment_3467218
MfT brings more value than Sprint Burst or Lithe, so the ideal perk setup would involve perks that can combo well with MfT.
MfT + dead hard is more value than MfT by itself. And MfT + Sprint burst or MfT + Lithe are both terrible combos, so we shouldn’t even be playing Sprint Burst or Lithe anymore.
Sprint Burst is still very much more value than MfT, as strong as MfT is. Lithe I'll grant you, I think MfT is probably a little stronger than that- but even then Lithe is more high-impact bursts of value, which is pretty likely to end up more useful more often than MfT.
Assuming we're looking purely at the haste, anyway. If you can manage to consistently use the Endurance then MfT does rate above Sprint Burst, but only then and that's not exactly consistently doable.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467165#Comment_3467165
There’s zero trade off when used with Dead Hard. The survivor gets full value out of their MfT, then right before getting hit, activated Dead Hard for an additional health state.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467109#Comment_3467109
I think we must be in wildly different MMR ranges, because survivors aren’t picking Dead Hard in my games because it’s “barely useful”.
And killers often can’t just look out for Dead Hard when the survivors are forcing lose/lose situations with looping to pallets, which is made easier with the additional speed from MfT. And yes, many of the MfT survivors are also using WoO, to ensure they can find all the pallets in the area.
But like. It's still just Dead Hard. Your worst case scenario is, what, hitting Endurance twice...? Even per survivor that's a lot less value than they'd be getting from just bringing Sprint Burst or Lithe.
Made For This has problems, but it being paired with one of the weakest Exhaustion perks is not one of them. If they just removed Dead Hard from the game entirely, the problems Made For This has won't be affected at all.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467079#Comment_3467079
Dead Hard is becoming a big deal with MfT. The lose/lose situations where the killer has to lunge because the survivor is getting close to a pallet, can be forced much easier when the survivor has the extra MfT speed. And I’m often dealing with 1-2 dead hards per game now.
Either MfT needs to be nerfed so it doesn’t combo with dead hard, or dead hard needs another nerf. It was so refreshing having a small period of time where I wasn’t constantly dealing with dead hard, but that’s gone now, because I’m seeing dead hard way too often now.
Another nerf? I don't think you can nerf Dead Hard any more than this, it's already barely useful. Even before, swinging into a single Dead Hard wasn't exactly game-losing, and that is now literally all that is going to happen because it only activates twice and you're gonna be looking out for it the second time.
I really don't think the Dead Hard combo is a problem. It's frankly the most fair and balanced combo MfT has right now.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467003#Comment_3467003
The effect would be something like “If the survivor is injured and not exhausted, then MfT activates, and remains active as long as the survivor stays injured. MfT causes exhaustion when activated, and MfT cannot activate if the survivor is already exhausted. The exhaustion timer does not count down when MfT is active.
Oh, I see, you mean changing the entire Exhaustion interaction. I could maybe see that working, but I'm not sure it's really the best fix for the perk's actual problems. There are only, what, two Exhaustion perks you can really pair it with? Dead Hard and Head On, anything else and you're actively hamstringing your attempts at using both perks in any given chase. Neither of those are huge deals, paired with MfT.
I'd sooner look at its Haste stacking, personally, and probably just removing its Endurance entirely- it never needed that secondary effect.
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Dead Hard barely does anything anymore, so seeing it every match is hardly problematic. In fact, that's a good thing, because it means survivors aren't bringing Exhaustion perks that'll actually do something for them more than once a match.
As for your first suggestion- how do you mean, when MfT successfully triggers? It triggers when you're injured, wouldn't that make the perk just not do anything?
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@gilgamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462664#Comment_3462664
Trapper is a horrible 1st killer honestly. Sure he isn't technically complex but you need a massive amount of map knowledge to actually use him effectively. Wraith is significantly better 1st killer. So that argument is kinda terrible honestly.
I'm not sure I'm following your point, sorry.
He is the first killer. We can't go back in time and make it Wraith. Unless you're referring to him being the onboarding killer for new players, in which case... nah, I disagree. Wraith is stronger, but you don't need strength for an onboarding killer, you need simplicity and lack of insane mechanical requirements. I'm not saying Wraith doesn't fit those criteria, but Trapper fits them more.
Nothing forces a player to not immediately buy a DLC and start playing someone else, but if they do start with the killer on the box art, the killer in the tutorial, and the killer that is listed first in their roster, they get a simple killer with an understandable power that pushes them to learn not only map awareness but also M1 chase fundamentals too. I think Trapper is a good first pick.
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@K3LiT said:
You both have good points. The change I proposed was only one of many solutions available. The point was more about changing or adjusting the killer in any way. It's pretty much a desperate cry after losing yet another game with my first main in this game. I moved to other killers since, which is sad. I like my boy trapper.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462664#Comment_3462664
You mentioned the devs adressing trapper recently; where can I find that information?
This was a part of the Reddit AMA session, where the topic of giving Trapper an overhaul came up. They answered that they wanted to keep him mostly where he is, citing both his statistics and that simple characters that are easy to pick up and learn are valuable for onboarding new players, but said that he'd have a small killer update planned to release alongside the Naughty Bear skin.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462679#Comment_3462679
Firstly, I literally mention lethal and corrupt in my post. So I’m not sure why you’re saying I don’t. I said there are plenty of perks which killers get value from without doing anything and that is a fair counterpoint to my notion. However, they are NOT the strongest killer perks. The strongest killer perks require you to do something. Whereas the most popular survivor perks pretty much all share in common the fact they are simply plug in and play.
Setting Made for This aside is disingenuous. And I think you know this. The effects of that perk are already very well documented because its effects are so basic we already know the impact it’s having. To suggest otherwise or that we need more time is wrong.
I really don’t understand how anyone can look at the data on Windows and still come up with the idea that it’s just totally average. Let’s look at where the data comes from for a start. Players self reporting. Because all those casual players who load up on a Friday or Saturday night upload their builds to night light right? It’s weird to me that a perk can be used so much and yet it apparently be so average. Do you see brutal strength in 30% of your survivor matches? Somehow I doubt it. No matter how good a player is they’re not psychic are they? The information this perk provides helps everyone out in chases. New players learn the maps and anyone can run to the nearest highlighted pallet and drop it. And for veterans it lets them know which pallets are still up and where the tiles can be chained. Major value for everyone of all levels with no requirements.
I really think people get hung up on this “managing exhaustion” thing as if it’s some great demonstration of skill. I said in another post, I agree that balanced landing takes some initiative and clever planning to activate. The idea that sprint burst and lithe require a lot of thought though is laughable. Can these perks be used badly or more effectively depending on the survivor? Of course. But the idea that managing exhaustion takes some masterful ability is wrong.
Deja Vu literally had an activation requirement before its rework. Now it’s free info and gen speed. We can debate the overall impact of the perk, but along with Prove Thyself all of this does notably add up in games when it comes to Gen repair time.
I agree staying injured with Resilience can be risky. But Resilience enables you to both 99 the heal (if haemorrhage isn’t a thing) and pair it with Made for This. I think you’re overestimating the trade off between being injured and what Resilience provides. Good survivors really do not care that much about being injured and there’s good reason for that. Pair it with Adrenaline and towards the last Gen being done it’s very easy to not even worry about healing when you know an automatic heal is coming your way.
I’d be curious to know what survivor perks you consider to be powerful? You said adrenaline, but what else?
So, I will hold my hands up and admit, I misspoke in two sections of my post here, I'll say where and how as I go through your points. My bad, I wrote the post late at night.
The first place I misspoke is at the top here. The way I meant to frame it was that you are missing Lethal and Corrupt being top tier perks. They are among the strongest perks a killer can bring, because of how crucially important the opening moments of a match can be- and they do not need to be activated or earned. They just work, as you say, plug-and-play.
Moving on, I'll be honest and say I largely set Made For This aside because it's the new hot topic and I didn't want the whole thing to be derailed debating it. You have a wider point that doesn't rely solely on that one perk, so I'd rather take a look at that.
Next up, when you talk about Windows of Opportunity here, you place an awful lot of emphasis on pickrate. How frequently a perk is picked is only a very general and vague indicator of how strong that perk is- you don't need to look any further than the fact that Self Care has been a top-three perk based on pickrate for years and years after it became almost not worth running in general. People will consistently bring perks for reasons other than their core strength, and Windows is one of those perks; it's brought because it's convenient and nice to have, not because it provides immense value. In terms of design, it's in the same boat as Brutal and Enduring because those perks are nice, noticeable bonuses, not because they swing matches one way or the other. Another good comparison on the killer side would be BBQ and Chilli; certainly not a weak perk, but hardly game-changing, and back when it had a high pickrate that was also for reasons other than strength.
When you talk about the Exhaustion perks here, you're moving the goalpost. The original claim wasn't that its requirements and activation aren't a huge deal, it was that there wasn't one to begin with; this is a relevant detail because you're trying to compare it to the killer perks that require activation and earning, but managing Exhaustion is hardly that much easier than "kick a gen and get a down", or "hook someone on the white hook". This isn't a pedantic difference, it undoes your entire point. Survivors do have to earn and activate those perks, you just don't think doing that is hard- but since you're comparing to a bunch of killer perks that also aren't actually all that hard to activate, that doesn't really add up to a salient critique. They all have some basic restrictions and activation to push the player to act a certain way.
We see another shifting of the goalposts with your next point here, alongside a kind of weird statement? I'm assuming when you say Deja Vu had an activation requirement before, you mean its timer, and... those aren't the same thing. It's more salient here to point out that Deja Vu isn't actually all that good, which puts it in the same camp as the perks you agree are balanced; the ones that have moderate effects you can just use as-is, as opposed to what you're trying to object to, perks with very strong effects but no requirement or activation. Deja Vu is simply not one of those perks, and Prove Thyself isn't even close. You talk about them being paired, but you surely can agree that's a very, very different criticism to the one you were making in the original post?
Then the hat-trick of goalpost shifting, where you move from talking about perks with no requirement to talking about perks that have - in your view - minimal requirements. I've already addressed that up above, so I won't go over it again.
Finally, we have the second place I misspoke, which is that I meant to say Adrenaline and the Exhaustion perks are strong on your list. I do think Sprint Burst is one of the strongest perks in the game, if not the strongest, and Lithe is definitely up there too. Balanced... it's probably on the upper end, but not quite of the same calibre. For more examples, I'd say Overcome, Lucky Break, Iron Will, Built to Last, and We'll Make It as genuinely strong survivor perks, and you'll notice those all have some kind of requirement or risk tradeoff.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3463218#Comment_3463218
I base it on how they chose to balance the game.
you can disagree with me if you like being wrong tho.
Ah, I see. I was kinda hoping there was something real there, lol.
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@Spectralfx said:
Bro, the devs only play survivors and they are extremely bad at it even on coms.
that's why they keep handing out freebies so survivors can win every game for free with little efforts, its because they believe the survivor main that cries all the time in here.
May I ask, what are you basing that on?
I was pretty sure the dev gameplay we'd seen before was them playing killer, but I've never actually looked into it. Is there footage out there of them playing survivor?
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I got Borderlands 2 as well (Assuming we discount Fortnite which was the actual last game I played), and I'm not sure how I'd do that.
If we look at Borderlands as a franchise rather than specifically BL2, it could be interesting to have an Eridian construct as the killer. They have a reasonable variety in their mechanics, there's stuff they could work from. If not that, something with Jack and his digi-clones could work?
For survivor, there's nobody that wouldn't break suspension of disbelief without explicit de-powering, but if we factor that in I'd pick Lilith or Maya. Lilith because she's one of the more iconic Borderlands characters in general, and Maya because she's a good blend of visually interesting without being Too Much from the BL2 player cast. Honourable mentions go to Tina, Moxxi, and Roland.
For the map, Fyrestone is a no-brainer. It's a location that's in a majority of Borderlands games, it has heavy thematic relevance for basically any character you picked to rep the franchise, and it shouldn't be impossible to translate it into DBD's mechanics. I'm really not sure if anywhere else in the whole franchise would work as well as Fyrestone would.
Next up, chapter cosmetics. Claptrap as a charm for buying the DLC would be a fun detail, that or a Vault symbol. Legion should get a Psycho skin, and the OG four survivors (or just pick a few, NOT FENG OR NEA OR KATE) could get some translated-into-Borderlands skins like the Attack on Titan collection did. Make them look like Vault Hunters in general, using visual language from the ones we've already seen. Similar things could be done with some killers, too.
Chapter name: Welcome to Pandora.
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I did it for killer so far, and I got Lethal Pursuer, Spirit Fury, Dying Light, and Deathbound.
It was... not a good build, but I got value out of all but Dying Light.
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I play Clown with low-rarity addons too, though I usually favour the reload speed addon. Greens don't really count, but reload speed and movement speed while reloading is my go-to addon combo on him if I have them.
Obvious answers are Demogorgon and Twins, too, but that's kinda cheating. Their best addons are brown and yellow.
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I'm... not sure I'm following, you say that the strongest effects need to be earned, but none of the perks you listed for the survivor side are even close to that powerful- except for Adrenaline, which you acknowledge does need to be earned.
Like, let's take a look at these. We'll set Made For This aside for now since it's new and up in the air, so starting from Windows, we have a pretty low-strength perk that's just nice to have. Definitely not an effect strong enough that it needs to be earned or activated- I'd consider it to be a similar-ish perk to things like Brutal Strength and Enduring. Good survivors just don't need WoO, and all the info in the world is useless if you aren't skilled at looping anyway.
Next we have Prove Thyself, which is barely even good. If it's used on one generator, sure, but if it's used on multiple generators in a row those survivors lose gen efficiency compared to working on those gens separately. Definitely not a perk that needs to be earned or activated.
Sprint Burst/Lithe/Balanced Landing are examples where you're just plain wrong on the face of it. You... do have to activate those perks. Lithe and Balanced do not function if you don't meet their activation requirements, and Sprint Burst puts pressure on you to either walk everywhere or 99 your Exhaustion, both of which count for these purposes.
Deja Vu is another odd pick, because it's really not that good? The six percent repair speed bonus isn't nothing, but really, all this perk does is show you where the 3-gen is. Conceptually I don't even know how you'd put an activation requirement on a perk like this.
Resilience is really the only one I'll grant you, because 9% repair speed is both noticeable and an effect you don't need skill to use, but something you're missing about survivor perks is sometimes they'll have a downside that isn't strictly an activation requirement, like Resilience's needing to be injured. Despite what some will tell you, staying injured is a risk in DBD. The other effects on this perk are either not strong, or require skill, so no comment on those.
Moving on from your list too, you're missing the strongest killer perks that don't require you to activate or earn them. You don't have to do anything to activate or earn Lethal Pursuer, nor Corrupt Intervention. You did mention Deadlock, at least, but still. While there are strong perks on the survivor side that you don't strictly have to earn - like MfT, or Iron Will - there are strong perks on the killer side you don't need to earn either, and all of those perks require skill to use effectively on either side, for the most part. I actually think perk design is in a pretty good spot right now, with a few noticeable outliers.
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Rework no, slight changes yes.
As the devs themselves pointed out in the Reddit AMA, there's a lot of value in Trapper remaining as simple and straightforward as he currently is, because he's the very first killer players have in their roster when they get the game and he's easy to pick up, mechanically speaking. Plus, there's something to be said for keeping him the way he is just as a preservation of history- though to be fair he has been changed noticeably a few times.
He definitely shouldn't get all his traps on him at the start of the match, that's a massively bad idea, but there's plenty that can be done to help him out while retaining his current identity and feel. A big one would be adjusting where his traps spawn at the start of a match, so he doesn't have to go all the way to the other side of the map to get all of his power, but they could also look at things like setting speed, trap colouration, basekit punishment for stepping in a trap while injured...
We do know he's getting a small update, at least. So, at least some of these things could be addressed sometime soonish.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
I like how people say 5m is too much while survivors have a permanment speed boost while injured that works globally. The buff I suggested is literally weaker than Made for This. The equivalent to Made for This would be having a permanent 3% speed boost while at least 1 survivor is injured.
A 3% speed boost is proportionately more for the killer, though, because they already move faster.
Also, Made For This has a requirement beyond being injured, which is that you can't be Exhausted. So, smaller radius for Bloodhound here would mean giving up your ability to maintain a speed boost while mindgaming or taking an alternate route to cut someone off, much in the same way that Made For This means giving up your ability to effectively use Exhaustion perks, some of the strongest in the game.
It's a good idea! The proposed radius is just a touch too big, on paper.
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Tapp is licensed, to be fair, so getting new skins for him is a little harder. Adam, though, he is 100% neglected and I'd personally love to see more skins for him.
Not even that, I'd love to see some tome lore for the man, he seems interesting- I just have no real anchor to form a real opinion on him, because his bare lore isn't the longest and there's nothing else to work from. Adam definitely deserves a tome and more cosmetics, imo.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3461359#Comment_3461359
Changes to her 3-gen potential, her current only viable playstyle is 3-genning.
That means she's fundamentally getting changed, aka rework.
That isn't actually true, she has quite a bit of build variety. 3-genning is just stronger than all of them, because of course it is, some variation on 3-genning is basically the strongest thing any killer can do.
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Maybe I just lucked out with bad survivors, but I've faced it in almost every match I've played since the patch (insofar as at least one survivor had it, albeit usually only one) and I can't say I've noticed much of a difference. This is as Singularity, Legion, and Clown, mind you, hardly top tier killers.
I have a strong suspicion there's some kind of feedback loop at play here. People assuming MFT must be overpowered, and noticing that they're losing chases, which must be because MFT is overpowered, and so on and so forth.
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Why do people think Ormond is so big, anyways? It's gotta be something to do with the shape, right?
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I'm actually a little curious to hear an explanation on that too.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the idea is to limit how much rich detail is actually relevant at any given moment, to prevent the amount of visual clutter from becoming overwhelming, but I'd have no frame of reference for if that would like... work, or if it's an accepted tactic in visual design in general.
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I think people consistently underrate exactly how strong Hux's Overclock and teleport are. Using your power on an injured survivor is absolutely worth it- you can catch up to a hold-W absurdly easily, and if you use it in a loop neither pallets or windows are safe for the survivor. Assuming you used it at the right time, of course.
Plus, if you could teleport immediately to a survivor that just got unhooked, tunnelling them would be extremely easy.
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They definitely, absolutely, 100% should not revert him back to the way he was before. If it was bad to fundamentally change a killer once, it would be bad to do it a second time, not even mentioning that he was changed for a reason.
What they should do in my opinion is exactly what you suggest, is give him more fake things to make the dream world harder to predict. However, I'd suggest making them part of his addons as part of a huge overhaul, for a few reasons.
- His addons are currently awful and an overhaul is required anyway,
- It provides more variety to a killer that currently lacks much interesting punch to his kit in general,
- Making them addon-based would make it much harder for survivors to predict exactly what is going to be fake in any specific match, which adds a little bit of spice to a trial as you figure out which addons Freddy brought.
On top of that, make pallets and snares both basekit at once, and let him swap between them like Clown's bottles.
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That'd make for a pretty lousy anniversary for the people who like Skull Merchant.
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I don't think they really add all that many challenges that require you to throw the game, though.
Even the one you're describing is just... take protection hits and escape. Assuming you aren't just blindly running into the killer at all times, taking protection hits can be the opposite of throwing, it's a good thing to learn how and when to do effectively.
People have a bad habit of assuming that if a challenge requires you to play suboptimally (IE, cleanse totems or - more accurately as there are good totem perks - open chests), that automatically means the survivor in question is throwing the game for their challenge, when that's obviously not true on the face of it. That, or they assume that a challenge must be completed in as few attempts as possible instead of being an overall goal, and criticise the challenge on those flawed grounds.
There are a few, though. The Doctor one in this latest page is pretty rough, I think that one qualifies as needing you to throw the game.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
Honestly, a Prove Thyself nerf is all that's needed to fix gen rush. This perk gives far more gen speed than any other perk.
That's only really true for one generator. If multiple generators are done with Prove Thyself one after the other, those survivors are losing gen speed, not gaining it.
Prove Thyself isn't even at a problem at all, let alone the biggest problem. The biggest problem, and I disagree with OP here too, is toolboxes and their dedicated builds. If we assume nobody brought gen speed at all on the survivor side and they split up to just do gens, the killer has a lot of agency in preventing that because base gen speeds really aren't that bad. It's if they split up and they have a ton of gen speed from toolboxes and their builds that it becomes a problem.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459886#Comment_3459886
There was very obviously context this is about the three gen situation you didn't pick up on - your fault. The second round of changes may have been relevant in it's motivation but was a complete failure.
Sure, but two things: Your phrasing was still objectively wrong on its face, and even if we discard the PTB-to-Live changes, it's still wrong because there was a round of changes specifically aimed at the 3-gen scenario. That's not context I'm missing, that's you moving the goalposts.
We also know for sure that a third round of changes is coming, so it's even more questionable to rhetorically ask why the devs aren't doing anything. They are, and we know they are.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459876#Comment_3459876
Two rounds that didn't fix the actual problem at all. Those ones were pretty irrelevant to the three gen situation so I didn't include them.
I didn't say they did, I just objected to claiming there's been "no changes at all". You don't have to lie to make your position look better.
Though, for the record, the second round of changes actually was relevant to the three gen situation, it just didn't fix it entirely.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459847#Comment_3459847
They fixed Doctor though to some extent. Absolutely zero changes for Skull Merchant though. 🤗
Other than the two rounds of changes she got, of course.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459699#Comment_3459699
You're talking about trapper? They said the most vague, minimizing statement possible about him. Again in the anniversary stream, there is nothing about killer gameplay or updates. They toss crumbs here and there to individual killers. In the grand scheme of the game it means very little.
I'll never forget the qna when Patrick was around when they just went on and on about survivor improvements and one dude popped up and said "hey killers are getting stuff too" and the others just looked annoyed at him. That's the attitude, shown over and over. Killers are there to facilitate survivors, not have their own agency.
I'm talking about all of the killer experience updates we've had and will continue to get.
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As you point out, this would result in lobby dodging, which is a bad thing to be avoided if possible. Some ideas, like showing teammate loadouts for survivor, have enough upsides to make it worth doing despite the increased likelihood of lobby dodging; this one would only achieve lobby dodging and nothing else.
It wouldn't even be a good reason to lobby dodge. Some of my most fun and some of my easiest games have been against SWF, and there's nothing actually stopping solo teams from being really difficult to beat.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459669#Comment_3459669
One new killer is hardly indicative of the killer experience as a whole.
"Singularity, one out thirty two killers is being changed. Doesn't that make your happy???"
Watch the anniversary stream and point out one single thing they said about improving the experience for killer players. It's nothing. Killers are set dressing to enable survivor gameplay.
Even looking only at the contents of the specific forum message you're responding to, that's two of thirty-two, not one.
This is, of course, putting aside how silly it is to assume I meant literally only Trapper and Singularity are getting updates as far as the killer role is concerned.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
They literally do not care about the killer experience playing the game.
Then why're they giving a killer whose stats are fine an update? Seems like the only reason they'd do that would be to make the killer more fun to play.
Same for the Singularity changes that are coming up soon. Why improve a killer, if they literally do not care about the killer experience playing the game?
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It's a combination of both, though I do think trying to strictly compare the same speed boost between survivor and killer - especially only one killer - is gonna be inherently a little misleading.
Skull Merchant is wildly underrated, and Made For This is being exaggerated pretty noticeably as it's the hot topic right now. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with either of them, but both things are currently being inflated in their severity by most posters on the forum.