jesterkind
jesterkind
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704697#Comment_3704697
knight and artist are hated
I specified "at least as much, if not moreso".
No killer is hated as much as Skull Merchant, and the killers who have her flaws but worse are included in that.
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@MikhailVictor said:
Sometimes you don't see the drones rotate in stealth mode, sometimes drones scan you outside of their radius, sometimes their actual scan lines lag behind the visual scan lines so even if you crouch at a perfect time, you still get scanned.
You can still place 3 drones on basement stairs.
She as a stealth killer has almost inaudible footstep sounds (compare to michael's breathing, ghostface's clothing sound, pig's unsheathing/roar etc etc).
Oh, and haste + hindered so you can't reliably tell whether you're gonna make another loop or not because she might randomly get 3% faster LMFAO.
This all hasn't been fixed since when they reworked her. I don't think I've ever lost a match playing skull merchant by pressing m2 at every loop even if opponents knew how to play against her. It got so boring I've stopped playing her because it's too easy. So yeah, the community hate is completely justified.
Saying these things haven't been fixed kind of implies that they're all problems, which I'm sure you'll agree not everything you listed is.
Like, you not seeing the drone rotate can't be considered a problem with her kit, that's just a player missing a cue and making a mistake. You could have seen the drone rotate, which is part of her design and counterplay, so what exactly is there to fix here?
Similarly, when you talk about her stealth not having any audio cues, it's kind of misleading to not talk about what her stealth is actually balanced with, right? It's not that she's just lacking a downside to her stealth, it's that the downside isn't an audio cue, it's a timer. We could even have a conversation about whether or not the end result is properly balanced, but without acknowledging the fact that they're using a different method to get there, we're never gonna reach any constructive conversation.
For the record, I do agree drone overlap is a problem, for more scenarios than just basement stairs, I'd like to see that adjusted. Similarly, I think her Haste should have more of a visual tell for when a teammate trips a drone mid-chase so you have more information to work with when gauging whether you'll make a resource or not. I agree with those two things being problems, though obviously they're hardly huge ones making her a miserable killer to face, they're just annoyances that should be adjusted.
As an aside, if we're going to conclude that community hate is justified based on her being able to just press M2 at every loop, we must also conclude that Knight and Artist should be hated to at least the same degree, if not moreso because they're better at it than she is.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704268#Comment_3704268
It already has a 60 seconds cooldown and because it wasn't mentioned again, we can assume that this will remain.
I don't know, usually that's the case but in this specific instance I feel like there's some ambiguity.
Like, they didn't mention anything about the active duration/cooldown split, is that staying? It would kinda make sense either way, and it definitely changes how we should rate the perk depending on which direction they go.
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@Xernoton said:
This on top of the 60 seconds cooldown really makes this more of a: "Check, if you are actually already where you need to be" kind of perk. That's really terrible. You either know where to go (otherwise you wouldn't be in range for it) or you use a perk that tells you. UW doesn't do that anymore. A shame really because it was the first genuinely good perk to apply Blindness and counter everyone's favorite Crutch of Opportunity.
One more perk disappearing into the void, I guess. As if we didn't have enough of those already.
Do we actually know that it'll have a sixty second cooldown? I don't remember if that part was in the dev update we got, or whether they talked elsewhere about that + whether the active duration/cooldown split is going to remain.
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@Bloodwebs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702223#Comment_3702223
#disagree - she's overall the most miserable dbd experience. its an instant k0 myself on hook against her. Give me a blight, bubba, heck even nurse over her anyday.
What actually makes her miserable, though? She can't hold games hostage anymore, so she's just a normal killer. Worst I could possibly say is that the "drop thing at loop, force survivor to run away" thing is kind of annoying to face, but she's not even the worst killer at doing that so I'd hesitate to suggest that's what you mean.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703944#Comment_3703944
Ultimate Weapon was never that great on mobile killers
lol…
There was not a better perk on Oni. That perk allowed best snowball in the game, because you could simply find everyone.
moderately worse
You just either don't realize how good it was on mobile killers, or how bad it is going to be overall, or both…
Anything a mobile killer could do with Ultimate Weapon, they could do with a few other info perks, and those perks would also give the survivors less time to react.
Oni in his power is probably the best case scenario for the perk, since you're on a timer to get the information, but when it comes to the other mobile killers there are just other options that are going to be stronger overall. It was pretty decent on those mobile killers at the expense of it being almost unusable on most other killers, now it's just "fine" on everyone.
I realise exactly how good it was on mobile killers. I also already know how much a lot of the community undervalues the other information perks.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703930#Comment_3703930
It's slightly better than before on immobile killers
How exactly is it better? It's less reliable information perk. It is not going to bring you into the chase every time. It's simply worse.
moderately worse on high mobility killers
It's just trash compare to effectivness it had on fast mobility killers. Mainly on Oni. He was kinda broken with it, so this version is just garbage compare to it.
Actually, there's one thing I'm curious about, which will impact the perk's strength.
If it has 60 seconds cooldown, then it is literally waste of slot. Just terrible.
If it has 30 seconds cooldown, it's less trash, but still inferior to most information perks currently use, even Whispers.
It does kinda similar job, but Whispers doesn't have cooldown and doesn't waste any of your time trying to find and open a locker.
In order:
1: Me saying it's slightly better on immobile killers is dependant on the cooldown being shorter overall. If it is, then the perk is slightly better on killers who couldn't maximise their use out of it before. Additionally, it now working like Whispers where it not revealing survivors is actionable information makes it a little more potent on immobile killers because they have less leeway to look for survivors in empty areas.
A mobile killer can make up for that lost time easily, but an immobile one needs to walk away manually. Knowing to leave straight away is more useful on immobile killers than mobile ones— and now that there's no upper level of value you could get with more mobility, that means the relative strength on immobile killers is a little higher. It's not much, but it's something.
To be clear: Not straight stronger, but stronger relative to before. Before, immobile killers got less use out of it, now they get slightly more compared to high mobility killers. The gap has been shrunk, which independent of anything else is a good thing.
2: Ultimate Weapon was never that great on mobile killers. It was fundamentally "pretty good", because it was relatively consistent but weak information. It's moderately worse now because travelling the map with your own sonar system was pretty good and now you can't do that, but mobile killers still get to act on the screams quicker than others, so it's not useless or trash. It's just the same as it is for any other killer now: Fine, but outclassed.
3: This point I agree with, 60 second cooldown on this version of the effect would be too high. I don't know so much about "trash", because it'd still have uses for action interruption and for applying Blindness on top of its information still being okay when it activates, but it would be too weak.
30 second cooldown (or somewhere between) would indeed make it STILL inferior to a lot of other information perks, which means it'd ultimately be acceptable. I don't personally see why you'd run any version of Ultimate Weapon on a majority of killers and in a majority of builds, but it's also not so useless that you couldn't use it, you'd still get value from it.
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@VomitMommy said:
It's not really any worse than before for any killer that isn't one of the ultra-high mobility ones.
It's a lot worse. I don't know if you ever even used that perk, but it happens quite often you open a locker and nothing, then you need to walk in some direction to find a survivor.
That won't work right now. It's just gamble, wasted time to walk to locker, open a locker, no information given with high cooldown. Why would I ever use it over Nowhere to hide? That works on every killer and it is connected to another useful action.
But hey you scream, so works against distortion, if you manage to be so lucky that player is 32 meters around you when you open the locker. Good luck with that.
That perk is simply garbage now. I would rather use Whispers then that, if I want to hunt distortion players.
I don't know why you'd use it over something like Nowhere To Hide. Those perks are, and will continue to be, better than Ultimate Weapon.
After this change goes live, it'll actually be kinda similar to Whispers, so that's a good example. You open a locker, and if you hear a scream, great, you get that info. If you don't hear a scream, nobody's nearby, which is also info. It's fine. It's slightly better than before on immobile killers and moderately worse on high mobility killers.
I have used the perk. It's solidly "okay" on high mobility killers and mediocre at best on immobile killers. Now it's just solidly okay on everyone. They definitely could've changed it in a better way than this, but the end result here isn't all that bad, either. From mid overall but inconsistent between killers, to just mid on everyone. In some ways that is an improvement.
Actually, there's one thing I'm curious about, which will impact the perk's strength. Have they removed the active duration/cooldown split? I'm assuming they have, so it's just that it goes on cooldown when you open the locker. If so, that does mean the overall cooldown should be lower than before, but if they haven't, it does make the perk actually kind of interesting to use because you'd kind of have a minefield of potential info that could be completely across the map from you.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703783#Comment_3703783
That's the thing. In my opinion, if it really were usable now, you would be able to think of at least a killer that could make the perk work. Even when Undone was announced I could have argued that you could make an impossible-skillcheck build for the Doctor with it.
I can't think of any build for any killer where the new UW would give any value.
I mean, any killer?
I would say the only killers who are at a disadvantage using it are pure stealth killers, because they don't want survivors to know they're being revealed. That's already a huge downside of Ultimate Weapon on any killer, but it's especially potent of a downside for stealth killers who can actually hide their approach too.
But take a killer like, say, Clown. Right now, he can use UW fine, he can open a locker and use that scream to get into a chase on a slight delay. After the changes… he could use it just fine, opening a locker to get into a chase on a slight delay or to confirm there's nobody nearby. It's a mediocre perk and it'll remain a mediocre perk.
Even higher speed killers can still use it just fine. There will just continue to be better choices on them as with everyone else.
If I wanted to run the perk, it'd be usable on most killers. I just don't want to because I'd rather use other perks, personally.
It's an overrated perk. It's not that good, it's just obnoxious to face, which is why a nerf was warranted.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703612#Comment_3703612
Just curious, in what killers do you see yourself using UW now efficiently, instead of using any other option?
Me, like any other "locker perk", in Huntress and Trickster as I will open lockers anyway. And even with them, I think there are better info options.
I wouldn't, because I don't think Ultimate Weapon is a good perk.
I think it's usable, but there are better options. That hasn't changed.
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It's not really any worse than before for any killer that isn't one of the ultra-high mobility ones.
Before the change, UW was kind of mid when run on immobile killers, and decent enough on the best-case-scenario high speed killers like Blight or Billy. It also had a lower end than even that, though, because it was also totally useless on stealth killers.
Now, it's just pretty average on everyone. In all fairness, that was the goal, addressing how obnoxious it was on the high-speed killers while not harming it too much for everyone else. In fact, it got very slightly better for a reasonable number of the cast, which is a nice bonus.
All in all, eh, it's fine. A mid perk gets a bit more usable on most of the cast, and a fair bit weaker on a select few. It's not great but it's not the end of the world.
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If this was personal to the player who brought it, and other players don't have to suffer through the game being flat worse as an experience because some joker brought an offering, I'd be all for this.
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I don't think any killer should be ground-up reworked, I think that was problematic when it happened to Freddy and it takes some pretty serious circumstances before it's appropriate.
It's not impossible, I'd say the previous version of Skull Merchant to the current one was mooooostly justifiable, even if I think it wasn't strictly necessary to do such a dramatic overhaul. I've also seen people highlight Spirit, and while I don't know for sure if a ground-up rework is required to fix her, the accessibility angle is one of those things where it might be.
Beyond that, definitely nobody right now. Some killers need reworks in the same vein as BHVR have been doing recently, and I'd say top of that list - now that they're tackling Twins, at least - is Myers and Freddy. Both killers need a pretty hefty fresh coat of paint, they're pretty outdated and flawed these days.
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So I think, no matter what all of this together would be way too much, you'd be left with a killer that doesn't have a clear identity and whose power doesn't really do that much. However, I mostly want to call attention to one particular element that I think is a dramatically bad idea, and it's for a not-so-obvious reason so I think it bears talking about.
I'm referring to removing her Haste for scanning a survivor. I cannot object to this idea strenuously enough, and I'm going to try and articulate why because it isn't just that it makes her too weak.
When looking at Skull Merchant as a killer for discussions like this, there are a few important factors to consider, but the one we're chiefly concerned with here is mechanical identity. What does it feel like to play Skull Merchant, and what does it feel like to play against her? What makes her stand out and what, if anything, would make her feel Fun to play against from the survivor side?
To me, there is one clear answer for Merchant: Playing around drone beams. That specific little minigame, with all the nuance and skill expression it has (on both sides!), is The Thing that sets Skull Merchant apart from other killers… and it's only something you actually have to care about because a single scan makes her move faster. If the only thing a scan did is build you towards an injury and some Hindered, there would be a plethora of situations where the correct call is to just tank a scan and leave, ESPECIALLY if you can then remove that stack by hacking a drone — which is a change I think is a good one, in a vacuum, to be clear.
There are changes that can absolutely be made to make this more obvious and more clear so survivors can play around it correctly - you highlight showing the survivor when they're on the scanner, which is a great idea only if it's there to show the survivor that Merchant has Haste and for how long - but it needs to stay. It and the drone's rotating beams are the core elements of her power from an experience standpoint, and I don't think you're going to ingratiate her to anyone by taking away the elements of her that have the required skill expression and mechanical input to be considered potentially fun. People are going to find her way more boring if the drones are an annoyance you run through two thirds of the time.
There'd also be absolutely no reason to care about drones as traps, either. It'd flatten all of Merchant's 1v4 because trap drones only matter in chase, they don't do anything if they're tripped and she isn't there to stop you from disabling the drone. Any fun to be had from sneaking around drones is gone; why bother? Tripping a drone just tells her where you are, if she's already in a chase that's hardly a risk. Run at it, disable it, you're done.
All of this on top of the fact that removing it makes her power a significantly worse Clown slow, therefore making her substantially weaker than most others on the roster and especially compared to her current (only decent) strength. I just don't think it's a salvageable idea, the Haste has to stay and there isn't anything you can replace it with that preserves the reason it has to stay.
There is some good stuff in here! But I just think that decision, and any decision made because of it, just can't work out.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701926#Comment_3701926
The end paragraph seems to be entirely ignored, which is the most important part. My claim is that when the decision for matchmaking is so poor, it needs to be offset by QoL features like found in other games' Ranked modes in order to be made enjoyable. Emblems encouraged an enjoyable experience for all, and K/E encourages the sweatiest gameplay. Even if we want to give credit to the claim 'people don't know their MMR, so that shouldn't matter', that still ignores that we removed the incentive to play fun and fair towards emblems. Emblems can still be considered ranked, but they encouraged such a better experience for all, such that they don't need Ranked QoL features as much to mitigate the all too common bad scenarios MMR-based matchmaking (or the lack of Emblem-based matchmaking) causes. I often have to play against the exact same Killer player playing the exact same Killer multiple times at some points, and if I want variety, fun, I need a Killer ban so I can wait in queue for a different Killer. With emblems, the matchmaking pool size was large enough that I could safely get different Killers far more frequently, so I didn't need Killer bans to have fun. Heck, I don't even need Killer bans if we got Killer repeat prevention instead, but that much needed QoL was only needed after the swap to MMR-matchmaking (IME).
Our main game mode is ranked, because when we look at what the founding MMR Dev said about matchmaking, we don't 'substantially de-prioritize MMR when finding a match' or use different MMR for different playlists. Yes, the casual modes in that Dev's example used MMR also, but the MMR was firstly unique to each playlist (casual and ranked, as well as Capture the Flag, etc.). Lights Out and My Little Oni didn't use a new MMR number as far as I understand, so they weren't casual by that Dev's methodology. They may have been intended to be casual fun, but it kept the diseased ranked/sweatfest mindset by porting over the same MMR (at least was my experience with those game modes, with people playing for $5 Subway cards). The second issue is that MMR needs to be de-prioritized. That means if you find only 5 people (4S 1K) after 2 minutes, they get a match, doesn't matter what their MMR brackets are. Now technically we do that now with the expanding ranges, but it isn't done well enough from my experience with matches.As far as de-prioritizing also, we mostly only do that when we get autofills, but the problem there is 4/5 people are expecting to play at their level (from hundreds of sweaty matches prior), and then you get 1 person significantly above or below that expectation. The Killer could be autofilled against babies when the Killer is expecting a clock SWF, or a random sweatlord Surv can be brought in with 3 mid-level Survs and a mid-level Killer. If autofill matchmaking was the norm, then we wouldn't go into matches expecting giga-sweatfests every match, we would know it is a total gamble, and can have more fun with the ups and downs. People wanting to sweat can still take their super-sweat into customs by organizing scrims with various communities, and that helps quarantine them away from the rest of the community.
My overall point is the current methodology plays like a Ranked game mode, without the features that make Ranked 'playable'. People weren't sweating every match (when I played at Red Ranks) under Emblems, but they are (when I play at above 75% winrate as Killer, and when getting tomes as Survivor) under MMR. MMR matchmaking, or more accurately the wincon being a blind K/E, is encouraging the sweaty gameplay, and needs the Ranked QoL to make the game 'playable'/enjoyable. Unfortunately, we currently we have to struggle against the system in place for the good matches.I wasn't ignoring it, I was directly responding to it.
The entire premise, as near as I can tell, rests on the central assertion that what we have in this game fundamentally resembles a Ranked mode in some meaningful way, therefore we need more Ranked hallmarks to support it. I'm assuming that's a central pillar of your argument, not least because you've repeated it in this post too. It's therefore pretty relevant that it's completely wrong.
There's nothing that really separates DBD's matchmaker from the casual mode in most other games, at least to my understanding of the topic. They use the same central core - a number that goes up when you win and down when you lose - and they prioritise speed over accuracy to varying degrees.
None of the things that separate casual mode from Ranked mode (typically a visible rank, a series of balance adjustments like a pick/ban phase and restrictions on certain elements, and a series of placement matches to determine your rank, among a few other game-specific things and a few things that only exist in comparison to a casual mode, EG, stricter penalties for DCing) are present in DBD. We just don't have anything that makes the current methodology actually play like a Ranked mode. We just have a bog standard, regular casual mode.
As an aside, what do you mean when you say we "removed the incentive to play fair with Emblems"? Emblems haven't gone anywhere, and have in fact become easier to play towards with the changes to how specific ones work + the removal of depipping coming up. If you want to make the argument that we should emphasise Emblems more with better rewards and better feedback for filling them, sure, that's a conversation I think could yield some useful results, but the idea that we "removed" them just because they're no longer awkwardly bent into a shape they fundamentally don't support by forcing them to be a (very bad!) matchmaker is very silly.
The fact is, what we had before could actually be called a Ranked mode, sort of. It still wasn't, really, but at least it actually had some of the hallmarks of a Ranked queue. Now, though, what we have is very firmly a quick play mode and is less similar to Ranked.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700946#Comment_3700946
Again, just because a color on a (3 primary color) palette is combined with Yellow to create Green, does NOT mean it is Blue. That is how I read your first sentence. It doesn't matter how confidently you say something if it is clearly, visibly, and objectively false. An alternative would be "Nurse moves faster than Survivors without perks, add-ons, blinks, or Bloodlust." My confidence in that statement has no bearing on the factual nature of it.
A number determining your matchmaking is ranked, unless that number is a queue ticket/your number in line/your purchase ID. If it adjusts one way when you win, and the opposite way when you lose, that's ranked. It doesn't matter if it is public or private, if you are still being ranked and matchmade according to the metrics of the game outcomes.
If it needs to be public, then that just shows that normal matches are ranked, as it doesn't hide whether a Survivor escaped or died to other Survivors. That showed everyone else that they won or lost. Plus plenty of games have ranked modes without replays, or ranked modes without match histories. That doesn't make them unranked.
My issue is that if we want such a bland Ranked/matchmaking qualifier as Kill/Escape, then we need significant Ranked QoL to make up for the deficits inherent to that methodology. If we used Emblems again, then those issues would be less noticeable or no longer even existing, and might not need those same QoL features to make up for the no longer visible or existing deficits.This doesn't make any sense, by this definition casual/quick play modes can't exist.
Games that have the distinction between quick play and ranked will use a number that goes up or down depending on outcome to match people with for either queue, because that's just what a matchmaker is. By your definition, BOTH modes are inherently and unavoidably ranked mode.
While that may be strictly accurate (maybe), it's not useful. DBD does not have a ranked mode by any definition other than this, and only has a casual mode; one where there aren't restrictions designed to enforce competitive fairness, there isn't a visible rank to try and strive for, and the MMR just works as an invisible matchmaker in the background.
If it were to have a ranked mode, nothing about the current mode would change, it'd just be labelled "Quick Play" or "Casual", because it is the one that would fill that role and the new queue would be ranked, necessarily. You'd need to add in all the stuff that makes a queue a ranked mode.
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@daffyd said:
"My point is that choice and skill don't matter."
I'd have to disagree, choice is very important especially today where lack of choice grows more and more.
I'm not sure why you bring skill into this discussion as it nothing to do with communications?
"There are a lot of reasons why someone cannot use voice comms to communicate, and the chances of one of those reasons being present in every game is very very high. It won't do the thing you want it to do because a lot of players would be prevented from being able to use it."
You are not at all clear, perhaps you'd like to give an example?
"Let me ask this, it might help me make this more clear: What benefit do you think voice comms would have?"
In game voice comms is a missing QOL since SWF was implemented. A couple of easy example would be that it allows people make friends and brings balance by not allowing other to have a unfair advantages over them.
Think of communications like a scooter…
If I offered you a scooter in a race and you refused the scooter then you still have the same ability to run or walk in the race, to be against to be offered a scooter is a little odd don't you think?In order:
1: I didn't bring skill into it, you did, in a previous response. It was a while ago though, I don't blame you for not remembering.
When I say choice and skill don't matter, I mean that you don't HAVE any choice in whether you get to use voice comms a lot of the time. I agree, choice is important. You won't have any with voice comms, though, because not only do YOU need to be able to use the voice comms system - something largely out of your control - but so do your teammates.
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2: I've given multiple examples, but I'll go over them again just to be safe.
Example A: Four survivors in a trial, in the EU region. One survivor speaks English, two speak Spanish, and the last speaks French. They do not get to use the voice comms to communicate for reasons completely beyond their control.
Example B: Four survivors in a trial, in the US region. One survivor is trying to use the voice comms properly, one survivor doesn't have a mic, one survivor has everyone muted by personal preference, and the fourth has to be muted by everyone else because they're blaring loud music. Nobody gets to use the voice comms to communicate for reasons outside their individual control.
Example C: Four survivors in a trial, in any region where they all speak the same language. One survivors is trying to use the voice comms properly, but has to mute everyone because of some kind of harassment, bigotry, or other kind of toxicity. Nobody gets to use the voice comms to communicate AND that game is a flat worse experience than a game that just didn't have voice comms enabled at all.
Example D: Four survivors in a trial. Three of them are in a SWF + using Discord to talk, muting the game's voice comms. The solo queue survivor is left with nothing.
The likelihood of any specific example here happening may be low (maybe), but the likelihood of you seeing something LIKE these is very high. This isn't a hypothetical, this is how it works in every game that has voice chat - the only difference is that most of those games don't require voice chat for exchanging information.
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3: As I outline above, you don't get that from voice chat. Voice chat will not let you make friends and it will not balance solo queue. It just won't do that, not consistently. It's complete random chance with a low likelihood of actually doing the basic thing you'd want it to do.
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Finally, the scooter analogy. Voice comms in DBD aren't like that because in that analogy, only I have to make the individual choice to use the scooter, and then when I make that choice I'm guaranteed to have a scooter. Voice comms don't work that way, they require multiple people to be able and willing to make the choice too or I don't get anything.
I don't want voice comms. I want systems that will ACTUALLY give me that kind of information consistently.
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@daffyd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3642175#Comment_3642175
"I think the major misunderstanding is that you're still thinking of voice comms as a personal matter. It's up to your skill and preference how well you can use it, right? If that's not your position, my apologies, but it's how you're coming across to me so far."
Please explain what you are talking about with this 'personal matter' you keep mentioning?It's how you keep responding to me- you keep highlighting that it's an optional thing players could choose to not use, and that how well someone can use it is also a matter of their personal skill.
My point is that choice and skill don't matter. There are a lot of reasons why someone cannot use voice comms to communicate, and the chances of one of those reasons being present in every game is very very high. It won't do the thing you want it to do because a lot of players would be prevented from being able to use it.
Let me ask this, it might help me make this more clear: What benefit do you think voice comms would have?
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@Dustin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700719#Comment_3700719
This is exactly why I don't bother - some of them have free reign on YT / Twitch - I can't call them out even though YT / Twitch algorithm is literally recommending their content to me just because it's DBD related.
Also all of you replying about them DC'ing prior are missing the point - Who cares if they DC'd on their own outside of a game with a cheater. They have a valid point quit dismissing it.
During the last event I ended up DC'ing twice because multiple cheaters holding the game hostage. These things happen and it's frustrating because most of us unlucky enough to encounter these cheaters just have to eat ######### for the game. Not all of us have all day to play games.
The fact that they DC outside of this match invalidates that point, though.
If they don't DC normally, the one game where they see a cheater would be a non-issue. The DC penalty for just DCing once is a single minute, which is trivial to wait out because of a cheater. It doesn't happen that often, and you can just spend that time spending bloodpoints or looking at challenges or whatever.
If they do DC normally in games that don't have cheaters… the DC penalty exists to penalise them for doing that. The one match they had a reason is irrelevant, they still DC in matches where they don't have that reason and that's why the DC penalty exists. They aren't being penalised with fifteen minutes of matchmaking lock for facing a cheater, they're being penalised with fifteen minutes of matchmaking lock for DCing multiple times. The cheater is incidental here.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700327#Comment_3700327
Yes. There is a point to 3 genning with the current SM its what she still excels at.
They cannot disable your drones safely when you are holding a 3 gen and assuming you take chase from the right directions zoning players into already placed drones they will get tagged at least 2 times from there you can drop chase or down them if the tags push them into being claw trapped as they get hindered and won't gain enough distance to get away from the 3 gen then proc surge on your 3 gen, hook said player in your 3 gen then pop if its worth doing (normally you just hook the player in your 3 gen then proxy camp) Assuming you don't make a mistake you WILL win if the survivers are not an swf or denying a 3 gen at 5 gens.
It could not be played against she is one of the best 3 gen killers in the game still you just put all your drones between gens or just on the outside of where the gens are hears a MS Paint Illustration
Key Red squares are gens
Black Circles are a bad attempt to show drone radius
Black edge of map border attempt
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KF5HOWH9O50I/capture-png.png
That's kinda how you roughly set yourself up. Do overcommit to chases southward in map for example try to hook it to your 3 gen if they start burning pallets in a good 3 gen location early commit to doing it early.
It's awful to play against but it's what SM is still good at.
By your own admission, though, this requires her just harassing survivors away while building up Lock On stacks. While she's doing that, she's not actually gaining anything, and the survivors are gaining objective progress that she has limited ability to stall since she's reduced to dry kicks - which she only has eight of, nowadays.
Compare that to other killers, for whom the initial approach - the time where Skull Merchant's only getting a single stack of Lock On before needing to return to the patrol - could actually be an injure or a down, without any need for patiently building up their power at all. A killer like Bubba or Billy could threaten an instadown in scenarios where Merchant has to be content with a single scan, a killer like Knight or Artist could effectively pressure two gens at once while Merchant can only pressure one, a killer like Huntress or even Deathslinger to a degree doesn't even need to approach fully to begin with while Merchant has to physically walk over to the survivor she wants to pressure…
What's being described here isn't excelling at 3-genning, it's just having some interaction with 3-genning, and not even a particularly strong one compared to other killers. Sure, it'll beat the average disorganised team, but what killer wouldn't be able to beat them in this scenario?
If we assume that multiple survivors are alive (because any less than three and it doesn't matter, the killer wins anyway) and that those survivors are actually sticking on generators (because teams that don't do the objective don't win, that's obvious), then Merchant is like… middle of the pack at best when it comes to leveraging 3-gens, and that's only if she's trying to win. She's lost her ability to stall matches out for fifty minutes entirely.
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Personally, I think this is at least partially a feedback loop.
If you're guaranteed to get hate and animosity (+ ruined games from people giving up) regardless of what you do while playing Skull Merchant, many "normal" players are just not going to play her because they don't want those reactions and they do want to actually play the game. More troll-inclined players, though, are gonna pick her because they do want those reactions and they don't particularly care about actually playing the game. Over time you get fewer "normal" players and more players like this, because those players are reinforced and the "normal" players are discouraged.
Hard problem to fix, honestly. It'll require the wider community changing their attitude as much as any changes to the killer itself.
Also, based map user, hell yeah.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411054/another-skull-merchant-discussion
- Haste after releasing drones, ability to recall drones in any time, from anywhere on the map
- Undetectable on demand with simply releasing drone
- Giving survivors Broken status effect, also deep wound if already wounded
- Giving survivors Hindered when they have claw trap, triggering instinct
And if you pair that with meta build and some nasty addons, what would you expect exactly?
If someone brings her, I assume they want easy game, so I go straight to basement to make the game even easier for them.She shouldn't have this much in her basekit, period.
She doesn't get Haste after setting down a drone, for the record. She gets Haste when a drone scans someone.
It's also worth pointing out that other killers do comparable amount of things, they're just not all literal status effects so it stands out less. There's exactly one status effect I don't think she needs - Deep Wounds - and the rest all make perfect sense and aren't particularly egregious.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699942#Comment_3699942
Trickster as Joker
Oni as Bane
Unknown/Doctor as Scarecrow
Legion as Red Hood
You could make an entire Batman collection honestly!
Make Legion a Punchline skin, I feel like that'd work pretty well.
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If it's a straight adaptation of the lore like the Legion's was, I would want All-Kill.
Yun-Jin and the Trickster already have some of the most interesting lore to me, conceptually. Seeing it in comic form, especially with some creative artistic direction, would be really cool.
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Setting aside massive pipe dreams that would never happen (specifically a Kanaya Maryam legendary skin for Hillbilly), I think my biggest want is an Alex Wesker skin for The Mastermind.
Come on, it's such an obvious gimme… the devs acknowledged Rev1 with that one Jill cosmetic, they should acknowledge Rev2 with this one. Please…
I'd also like to see a Taylor Hebert skin for… someone, I honestly don't even know who. Legion? I want her as a killer more than a skin, though.
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@Ayodam said:
These stats are dubious but seem inconsequential. I just dunno why they release things like this while withholding the stats people routinely request. I feel there’s an angle they’re trying to play by avoiding stats that would be controversial (like number of hooks per gen, number of hatch escapes—which do lower the kill rate, etc).
I would assume, if they are doing this intentionally, it's largely an attempt to ensure the stats are viewed correctly- as mildly interesting bits of trivia without much consequential impact.
If they gave us too much of the stuff like number of hooks and number of hatch escapes, people are gonna use them as proof supporting some kind of argument about balance a lot more. I'd still be interested in seeing them, but the effect they'd have on the state of discourse for a while can't be ignored- they wouldn't become anything other than interesting trivia, but people would treat those stats differently anyway.
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@Halloulle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699522#Comment_3699522
the ~30% of an individual actually making it out is a mix of personal experience (majority SoloQ matches), experiences of people I know personally and what I gathered over time in the forums along with the escape rates posted by bhvr. The ~3 matches comes from being somewhere between 3 and 4 out of ten matches.
Ah, gotcha.
I mean, I'd point out that's not exactly a very robust dataset, and even if it were that's not the expectation, right?
The expectation would be what the devs are aiming for, not the current state of balance.
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Where does the whole "three out of ten matches" thing come from?
All we really have to go on is the devs' stated goal of a 60% killrate, which would be somewhere around five* in every ten matches, which is… balanced. If you can only have fun when you win, you've got roughly a 50% chance of it, which is about what you should expect from a PVP game.
*I'm not great with numbers, I don't know the exact number. Somewhere between four and five, trending towards five, is my understanding.
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I think this is missing the more likely outcome, which is that the unhooked survivor only takes the Endurance hit and then leaves. In that case I don't view it as a problem, you're still getting a Mend action out of them so it's not a complete loss.
Beyond that, even assuming the survivor does force you into downing them, I think the part that's being missed here is that you're still occupying two survivors for all that time, leaving only two (if everyone's alive) to do generators. The alternative to this scenario, especially assuming good survivors that don't go down easy in chase, is that you chase the unhooker, the unhooked goes to do generators, and now three survivors are directly progressing the objective instead of two.
Survivors that play this cocky and aggressive tend to be walking on a razor's edge where one mistake (or one correct read on the killer's part) completely unravels their team because they're already playing inefficiently. Even looking at the best case scenario for them, where the chase happens near some tight corridors or doorways that they can fully bodyblock, they're still putting themselves in a strictly worse scenario than if they'd decided to let anti-tunnel be defensive instead of offensive.
That's also why your scenario where you go occupy someone else but the unhooked survivor is following you is definitely not a problem. That's kind of great for you, honestly, you're getting the effect of a dead survivor off the guy trying to follow you around for their youtube montage or whatever.
Generally, when we self-select ourselves into imagining the platonic ideal of the High MMR Survivor, pretty much anything they do is going to be hard to respond to. At least when they play aggressive, cocky, and altruistic, it's something you could punish.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684904#Comment_3684904
True, but they specifically said this system was ONLY supposed to affect users who intentionally camped a 3 gen from the beginning of the match that refused to do objectives. This was to essentially stop trolls, not stop people from viably defending a vital gen on maps like Ormond or rpd...and certainly not yo nerf weak m1 killers who literally are not allowed to patrol far away gens due to no map traversal abilities - they naturally have to stay more in the center of the map and in turn are far more likely to be negatively affected by perks like surge.
Weren't their words that it's not supposed to affect the average match, rather than that you won't notice it at all unless you're doing the most extreme version of the problem?
Either way, I don't feel their specific wording on the topic matters all that much. It working the way it does now is perfectly fine, healthy, and has the added bonus of giving some very light feedback to killer players not to focus on defending generators. That is, after all, not their objective, just a tool you'll use here and there.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684755#Comment_3684755
Fair mostly, but a slight correction. The 8 regression limit was not to stop people overlay defending a gen (lets face it, that gen on rpd is VITAL, so defending that gen is what almost any killer will do), the 8 regression system was specifically to stop killers who focused on a 3 gen at the beginning of the match and refused to progress the objectives. They wouldn't chase, wouldn't hook. They would just camp the 3 gen to prolong the match as long as possible. Clearly the knight was not doing this - he was actively chasing and hooking, so no, the system was not designed for his kind of situation.
I would personally argue those two things are linked pretty heavily, is the thing. The reason those aggressive 3-gen games were a problem was because of excessive gen stall, that's the mechanism being used to stall the match out forever. In the same vein, if it were possible to use excessive gen stall to get the same result without requiring the defence of a 3-gen specifically, that'd be equally problematic- this was somewhat seen in the Eruption meta, for example.
Excessive gen stall is the root cause of the 3-gen problem, anything they did to tackle 3-gens like that would necessarily require weakening excessive gen stall. It's not a binary, it's a sliding scale: someone like this Knight, who wasn't aggressively defending a 3-gen, was still very heavily prioritising gen damage, so they'd notice some of the system. By contrast, someone who was aggressively defending a 3-gen as you describe would notice the system way more, because they'd have three gens blocked instead of one, those three gens would be the last ones at the end of the match, and they'd have nothing else to show for it-- unlike the Knight who was actually getting hooks and had multiple gens' worth of time left to correct their mistake.
TL;DR, fixing those 3-gen games requires tackling excessive gen stall, and anyone who participates in excessive gen stall without trying that 3-gen tactic is gonna notice a proportionately smaller amount of the system because of it.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684708#Comment_3684708
If you get 3 downs, you realistically are only going to get one hook, at least at higher levels of play. You're going to have people recovered by the time you get a hook, and the other survivor easily pops them up, and that's not including the multitude of perks that can undo a downed state.
For your second paragraph, you're ignoring the cases where there are kicks or other regression events occurring. If someone is SOLEY using surge and Surge alone and refusing to kick, maybe, but that's fairly rare. I had a match just the other day where we were up against a knight. He lost 5 of his charges on a gen in the first 3 minutes of the match. We were all focusing on the center gen on rpd, so the moment he'd come mid, we'd leave, then immediately jump on the gen, again. Between his minion kicks and him trying to use nowhere to hide (we had distortion), he didn't have a chance. Gen locked up permantely before the mid-point of the match.
Oh, sure, if the downs are all back to back in a short enough timeframe that you didn't have a chance to pick them up in between, that's probably only one hook, but it still puts the survivors on a pretty noticeable back foot. Worst case scenario you've stalled out all the gen repair and dragged all the survivors into the same place where it's harder for them to reset without scattering. I'll grant it's technically still the system affecting you in scenarios outside of what it's designed for, but that scenario is imo one of the acceptable edge cases because it's relatively uncommon and still breaks in the killer's favour pretty heavily.
As to the second part, yeah, that was on purpose. I was attempting to respond to the strongest version of the position I could, because considering times where the killer's throwing by kicking gens constantly instead of getting into chase would only weaken the opposing argument and I didn't think that was fair.
Like the video you posted, where a player repeatedly bangs their head against the same generator for honestly zero benefit, prioritising damaging the generator over finding the survivor coming back to repair it. That player is both playing poorly and doing the thing this system is designed to stop, which is repeatedly stalling the same generator in a very defensive playstyle.
I don't want to pick apart this one video too much, it's easy to get lost in the sauce of critiquing very specific gameplay instead of making a broader point, but if that Knight would've just sent the guard out to the generator as a patrol instead of repeatedly trying to stall the repair on it with a regression event, this'd be a moot point. Because they wanted to keep stalling that generator, they hit the system designed to stop excessive gen stall.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Surge is also suffering unfairly - it was literally changed to have no cooldown but lesser damage to take advantage of survivors being out of position. With the 8 regression limit, this perk that does low damage but multiple times ends up working against the killer causing incredibly quick lockups. I have literally had 3 regression surge events within 20 seconds before due to terrible survivor planning. That's nearly half the allotted charges within the first few minutes of the match!
Also, any non regression kick perk also suffers unfairly.
Every time Surge activates, you get a down, necessarily. That's the thing that activates it. Now, obviously not every down results in a hook, but most do, and I just don't see a way you could be getting multiple downs near generators that are in progress and not be winning.
In order to reach the cap, the only point at which the system matters, you'd have to get eight downs near that generator. That's enough to have killed two survivors easily even considering that not all of them necessarily translate to hooks, how could you possibly need more than that? To be clear, I'm not arguing that you should be okay with hitting the cap because of this, I'm saying that you shouldn't even be noticing the cap because the game's already over at that point, you don't have to care about that generator with two dead and a third on the way unless it's the last gen of the match- and even then it's hardly that important.
As for non-regression kick perks, I disagree. Eight uses per generator is perfectly fair for pretty much every perk I can think of, especially the ones that are actually worth using to begin with. At most you'd maybe have to make the conscious decision not to spam them, that's all.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684439#Comment_3684439
killer don't have time to kick gens because kicking gen is secondary objective for killer. the only time you affect multiple gens with eruption easily is 3 gens because the 3 gen are close together and your kicking all 3 of them before the down.
for normal gameplay outside of 3 gen, eruption's reward is not there because killer is kicking 1 gen and then downing the survivor, similar pop goes weasel. eruption is now just worse pop goes weasel. the perk was suppose to be a perk that gives less regression with trade off to give incap. The incap is super important for this perk because the killer spends time to kick multiple gens and incap is what gives killer net 0 time loss for multiple gen kicks. It doesn't have that currently so the perk is kick 1 gen and move on.
You'd run Eruption on killers that can minimise that investment if you're worried about that. As I said above, Wraith is a great user of Eruption because he both has the movement speed to get between gens easily, and has addons that help make doing so even quicker.
Any killer with a similar level of map traversal can use Eruption quite well, especially with a supporting build.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684408#Comment_3684408
The point isn't reaching the cap before 1 gen is left. Unless you're in a small map (or any map if Survivors keep divebombing the same gen which means they go down near them), using Surge and Survivors keep getting saves/sabos then it's not that easy to reach the cap early.
Like I said in my previous comment, bringing those perks is counter-productive because if the match is tight (at least 3 Survivors still alive or 4 but with some of them on 2nd hook) then 3-gen or not, it's more than likely (especially for weaker/slower/M1 Killers) that at least one of the last gens is around halfway through it's events even if the Killer didn't intend to 3-gen, putting them on the defensive since they need to prioritize a particular gen (which basically means a loss for any of the Killers that can't zoom across the map or end chases in seconds) because they can't afford to kick too much.
It's pretty rare to hit 8 regression events before 4 gens are done (unless using certain perks and/or against certain Survivors) but it's common to end up in a 3-gen that the Survivors created that most Killers can't exactly defend effectively (due to lack of mobility or lethality) despite having no intention to stall.
How is that counterproductive when the whole point of bringing them is to try and close the match out before it gets to that point anyway?
More to the point, when you're in that position, why would you need more than half the regression events when you're close to closing out the match anyway? The only time that'd matter is if you're trying to stop the last generator from being done instead of trying to kill the survivors.
Sure, the survivors 3-genned themselves in this scenario, but what you're describing sounds more like trying to defend generators than it does trying to win the game. I don't see this as convincing, the perks still function exactly as they're supposed to and survivor-created 3-gens are still massively in the killer's favour as long as the killer's actually trying to utilise it.
Except, of course, Eruption, which is more likely to chew through those events due to how it's designed, etcetera. That much is all in the original post, just repeating for posterity.
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@felipesegatto1 said:
you can’t! BHVR thinks survivors cant have value from perks anymore, so everything needs to be useless
Sable's two other perks being quite useful doesn't strike you as odd, with this mindset?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684401#Comment_3684401
all regression perk are now burst reward oriented excluding hex:ruin. eruption's burst reward is not worth it. 10% regression is not good enough of burst reward. the same for 8% regression. Those perk were more worthwhile before because they had "unlimited" factor before in 3 gens. this was imbalanced in one way and useless in another way. you had to play specific way to maximize the value of said perks.
Now unlimited factor is gone but burst reward factor was unchanged in the case of surge and nerfed in the case of eruption.
On the topic of Eruption specifically, it's 10% on every affected gen, which makes it much more viable of a burst reward.
Pain Res does 25%, but it does it to one generator. Eruption could hypothetically affect every gen on the map, and realistically is gonna affect about two or three on average, taking off more accumulative gen repair from the survivor team compared to Pain Res and partially countering the more effective strategy of splitting up on gens. Don't get me wrong, Pain Res is better overall, but Eruption is no slouch.
That's not really what I'm here to debate, though. I just want to address it currently being the only perk currently actually harmed by the anti 3-gen system, even if only mildly.
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Two changes are necessary, in my opinion:
- The perk should affect generators that are currently blocked, it's insane it doesn't already work this way
- The Broken effect should become temporary, either on a long-ish timer or until hooked next.
I believe the perk would still be risk/reward even with a temporary Broken, because part of the risk is the time investment and how deadly being interrupted would be when you're in the basement. Those two things combined with being forced to be vulnerable for a reasonably long period afterwards would be a fair trade, in my opinion.
The other thing that needs to happen isn't on BHVR's side, it's on the community's. I think we're all just going to have to accept that Invocation perks - or at least Weaving Spiders specifically - are not solo queue perks and are going to be very difficult to use in solo queue. I would personally argue that this isn't inherently terrible, as there aren't that many perks you straight up can't use in solo queue (especially if changes were made to allow you to see your teammate's loadout), but regardless of whether you think that's fair or not in general, that's what Weaving Spiders is. It's a perk to use when you have at least one teammate you're communicating with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I believe that two survivors performing the ritual when they both have the perk equipped is a one minute time investment. Assuming your teammates are running the killer and not, y'know, throwing or leading the killer to you or trying to help you with the invocation themselves, that's an extremely reasonable time investment for what you get in return. Two minutes of combined potential generator repair, but condensed into one minute of real time which gives the killer half the opportunity to progress their objective or chew through map resources, in exchange for permanently weakening regression and making generators faster to repair across the board.
Add in more teammates you're on comms with, and there's fewer points of failure for the strat.
Will it ever be top-tier meta? No. Will it be a perfectly worthwhile perk with a clear niche? Yes.
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@Skillfulstone said:
Eruption isn't the only perk "suffering unfairly".
Every regression perks except for Pop and Pain Res are simply no longer worth using after a certain threshold of experience (although Eruption and Surge are by far the most affected due to how quickly they chew through regression events for little payoff, especially since a down doesn't necessarily mean a hook) Survivors that don't go down easy (or know how to weaponize the regression limit, it's surprisingly easy, especially for a SWF, if against a Killer on the weaker end of the spectrum/M1 Killers) will minimize the slowdown those perks give while eventually putting the Killer into lose/lose situations at the lategame.
Every non-regression kick perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, Unforeseen etc.) are also affected since they offer effectively no extra slowdown on their own and aren't meant to regress gens yet take away 1/8 regression events for no guaranteed value and minimal slowdown. If not brought alongside Pop and/or Pain Res they are effectively no longer worth using after a certain experience threshold.
The "Anti-3-gen system" is currently doing way more than it should do. It single-handedly made several perks redundant and effectively made Pop/Pain Res, already popular picks, the only regression perks worth bringing. It also made life more stressful for weaker/M1 Killers due to them needing more slowdown than the powerhouses if they can't steamroll the other side. If the system only kicked-in at 1 gen remaining (even if regression events were reduced to 6-7) then it would make those perks useful again while still removing endless games.
Eight attempts at using a perk per generator is more than enough, especially considering all the slowdown ones require a down of some kind. If you need more than eight downs near multiple generators with Surge, for instance, that kinda starts to bleed into the idea of stalling the game out until you can win by attrition rather than winning through actual good play, which is exactly what this system is designed to stop.
For non-regression kick perks (side note, why on earth is Machine Learning in your list there considering it literally requires the generator to be finished before it functions?), the absolute most you can say about them is that now you probably don't want to use them alongside regression perks, but to that there's two things to say: The first is that there are non-regression slowdown perks to pair them with so that's not a huge blow, and the second is that... I'm not really convinced that's true? You can probably run them with a little bit of thought and caution, you just might be more at risk of seeing the warning spikes pop up- but if that happens as you're winning a match, who cares, right?
Eruption, however, just flat gets less than those eight attempts by the nature of its design, and while I don't think that's so damaging the perk can never be used, I do think it's a little more annoying than it really should be. That's why I say it's the only perk unfairly suffering; the TL;DR is that eight uses per generator is fair but Eruption only gets four.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684356#Comment_3684356
15% for 4 tries is only 10% less then pain res. the # uses sounds about right. the missing reward is incap.
It can't be missing from a perk if it should never be on a perk to begin with.
Old Eruption wasn't okay. It shouldn't come back. Current Eruption is pretty good, it's not lacklustre and isn't really missing anything anyway.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684096#Comment_3684096
eruption was designed to have 15-25 second incapacitation effect. This perk got nerfed unfairly. That is why it is providing lack luster game-delay.
For reference, eruption was indirect problem with 3 gen system. Even though it did not directly contribute to unearned slowdown because you needed to down a survivor, its unlimited regression use would allow killers to purposely get downs and slug to stall out the game at lower levels of play.
Surge also affected by this change for same reason because Surge is overpowered in 3 gen situations but apply terrible game-delay outside of 3 gens because it will only hit at most 1 gen due to generator map distribution.
So once they nerfed main culprint's(Overcharge and Cob), Killers that played in this way simply switched to Surge+Eruption. Unfortunately due to the order of changes, Overcharge, Cob, Eruption and Surge are now under-powered.
I do not believe any of that is true, and this change is not aimed at that kind of problem to begin with.
Eruption is currently pretty alright, as far as slowdown goes. 10% total progress off multiple gens at once can be very solid, if you're playing a killer that can minimise the investment needed to apply it- Wraith, for example, is a great user of Eruption at the moment.
My only problem with it right now is how it chews through regression events twice as fast as any other perk. The effect is fine, it's how many times you hypothetically get to use it that I think needs looking at.
Also, the nerf was not unfair, Incapacitated on a perk was ridiculously unhealthy.
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@fussy said:
I had thought just to make it 15% since it eat 2 regression events per 1 use. Removing 5% from kicking will make this risky perk even more risky and i doubt someone will bring it. Imo, or it should be 20% with your suggestion, or just buff it to 15%.
Eruption isn't really a weak or risky perk now, it's quite good. The only issue it has is that it chews through two regression events per use, and while that's not a death sentence for using it on its own, it does severely limit what other perks you should really feel comfortable running alongside it.
The same amount of slowdown, arguably more since it happens in a chunk rather than staggered, would be more than enough of a benefit in exchange for removing that downside. Remember, you'll still get the normal 5% while Eruption is on cooldown with this change, it should only apply when you're marking gens for Eruption anyway.
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Pretty much, I agree with this dude's sentiment. If everyone involved is just going for a normal game and isn't giving up or griefing in some way, Skull Merchant matches are perfectly fine. The few I've gotten to play on the survivor side were even pretty fun, dodging her drones can be pretty engaging.
I do feel for BHVR, because they kind of have to do something in response to all this, but 90% of the feedback they get is completely unusable. How the heck do you balance your way out of a community perception issue? I don't envy them the task, that's for sure.
Hopefully whenever SM inevitably does get changes, they're sensible ones that alleviate the few actual problems she has.
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It's balanced because it cancels as soon as they do anything (well, almost anything) that progresses the game.
If someone's trying to bodyblock, either ignore them or hit them. Sure, it's annoying, but usually they're just putting themself in a position to be tunnelled much easier by doing it- assuming you even have to pay attention to them at all.
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It seems that way because players will flock, generally, to whatever shortcuts they can find, and that means a lot of killers' powers are bent into being used for tunnelling, camping, and 3-genning.
It's got very little to do with what the powers are actually designed to do or what they excel in - with the exception of release Skull Merchant, none of these killers actually excel at holding 3 gens imo - and more to do with how much value these tactics can give for how little effort.
Take a look at these four killers again. They all have pretty wildly different powers and different intents for using them, with only mild similarities between some of them. Unknown and Singularity both have a teleport, for example, but the specifics of the hows and whys are completely different. Singularity and Skull Merchant both place monitoring-style objects, but again, the way they're used and the things they do are completely different.
There's not much that actually connects these four killers, if people are using them to 3-gen, it's because they view 3-genning as an easier and simpler shortcut to value than using the powers to their full potential.
TL;DR, it's not how they were designed, it's how players are using them.
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Honestly, when it comes to Freddy, I don't think these are his biggest problems. Not being slowed while placing would be a nice change, but I don't really think anything else here would really help him?
He needs a lot more than just reverting these.
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I find it depends on the killer I'm playing.
If I'm playing Trapper, it goes without saying this map is a death sentence, there's nowhere to hide traps on this map. For others, though, the woes tend to be a little more subdued. It's got some annoying collision for the once in a blue moon where I play those killers, it has a lot of line of sight blockers if I'm trying to play a ranged killer...
...But it also has a lot of line of sight blockers, so despite the bright tone it's okay for stealth killers, and my main Clown does a fair job shutting down some of the more obnoxious loops.
It's not too bad, generally.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679019#Comment_3679019
keep in mind though that SiS is not broadcasted to the killer - CoH was and still is. You can easily erase all pressure on you at will, and the killer will be none the wiser unless he stops pressuring gens and stops chasing people just to check you MIGHT be happening to heal in basement. With CoH, the killer instantly knows there's a boon in play, and there's only so many places it could be. It might not be as strong as old CoH, but it's incredibly close to it.
That's an upside, sure, but the biggest parts of old CoH still aren't present. It only affects you, but most importantly, the thing that actually made CoH overpowered is impossible from two angles when it comes to SiS.
You can't use SiS to make medkits absurdly powerful because it doesn't stack with medkits to begin with and those medkits aren't nearly as powerful to begin with.
As to the erasing all the killer's pressure, that's not true. Even with Botany the heal isn't that fast, and factoring in the travel time, you as the killer get basically what you want from leaving a survivor injured: they're off generators to heal, and they're not interfering with your other chases either. At worst, it shortens your window to make that injury pressure, by occupying multiple other survivors, but healing perks are supposed to do that and I don't think this one's unbalanced.
(Brief pedantic nitpick as an aside, you don't pressure generators, you pressure survivors.)
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Need to fix that you don't actually have to be in the basement for the heal. They need only be on the stairs, you know, where if basement is in killer shack, they have an amazing window and a god pallet nearby which makes the whole "risk" completely voided?
On top of that, BHVR was aware that how someone could just undo any damage by going to a certain spot on the map was very broken (original circle of healing). It just erases killer pressure. Now they add this perk in and just create the old problem again...a survivor with the perk just has to go to one spot on the map and can self heal. At the very least, it should be 50% healspeed. 70% is incredibly fast for a self heal.
To be fair, while Strength in Shadows is really good, it's nowhere close to old CoH for three major reasons.
- You don't control where the spot you have to run to is,
- It only affects you and isn't teamwide for one perk slot,
- Most importantly, it doesn't stack with medkits, and even if it did medkits aren't OP anymore like they used to be.
It's much more equivalent to if CoH was ran on its own and that nobody else benefited from throughout the whole match, which was similarly good but not OP- and you still controlled where it went, so it still would've been stronger than SiS.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678042#Comment_3678042
The problem with Trickster's power is that sometimes there's just no counterplay. Unless you have a loop or cover that he can't hit over you're losing a health state. If you can't make it to a good loop with the burst you get from losing a health state, you're likely to go straight down as his main event is probably available at that point.
Yes, that's the part I agreed with.