jesterkind
jesterkind
About
- Username
- jesterkind
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,633
- Last Active
Comments
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715079#Comment_3715079
You’re just wrong dude. The math literally isn’t there for playing the way that you’re describing. In the past, when regression was stronger, I was able to play more for chases. That was years ago, and it’s not like my game knowledge has decreased: killer gameplay has been watered down, and regression has been nuked. As I said, I can down extremely fast, but if they have too good of a gen spread, it can be impossible to win.
All I'm calling out here is that the ONLY thing you're referencing is how fast you can down.
What about everything else? Super fast downs and only super fast downs can work against less organised opponents, but a good team is going to be able to overcome it, especially if it comes with more invested time actually finding people.
The downs would need to be REALLY fast in order to overcome basic efficiency from the survivor team, I'm talking sub ten seconds start to finish.
-
@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715125#Comment_3715125
achieve the goal of almost every mp game. the game is both balanced and fun. no bs at the competitive level and you can join in at any skill level and have a good time.
you could run into those, you could also run into a falling meteor tomorrow. do you have a practical example?
and that would be affecting the fun right? it needs to be fun at the bottom while balanced at the top, so some change would need to happen.
no system will ever happen without finding issues, pretending one hypothetical issue means it's useless is just arguing in bad faith.
Being fun for the entire playerbase is the only goal, and being balanced is the way you get there most of the time- obviously there's other factors at play.
The fact of the matter is, you can never ignore any section of the playerbase. You have to keep all of them in mind for every change and make sure you've got a good amount of changes that'll affect each skill range positively, where applicable. If that sounds nightmarishly difficult, welcome to game design.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715125#Comment_3715125
Trickle down balance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw
Imagine a scenario for DBD, where we see killer shack for example.
Killer shack, is one of the strongest structures in the game for survivors. At a high level, a good survivor pretty much can waste a solid 30-40 seconds or more of a killers time just at this single structure, let alone when it is connected to things. But at a low level, what happens? The survivor predrops the pallet the wrong way, gets hit anyway, and now the pallet is gone.
What happens if they nerf this structure? Does it hurt the low level player? No, it does not, because the low level player was not exploiting this structure to its fullest extent anyway. But it does "hurt" the high level player, by bringing the structure more in line.
The same could be said for nurse. If you nerf nurse, you aren't going to hurt the low level killer players, because they already aren't exploiting nurse to her fullest potential, so they aren't going to change anything. But it will hurt the high level nurse players.
This is a great example. Would there be anything wrong with that change? Nope!
As long as other changes come out that would more positively affect lower skill levels and not affect high levels. In other words, as long as it's part of an overall mindset of balancing for the entire game, not just the top. "Trickle down" doesn't work, direct actions will always be needed. All skill ranges are always important and none can be overlooked.
-
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715054#Comment_3715054
Then let me rephrase it. I spend my time very ineffiently and there is next to nothing that can be done to speed this process up. Even Agitation and Fire Up only save marginal time and I think we would both agree that a killer should not run both of these perks, if they want to win.
You answer the wrong question though. I did not ask how I buy myself more time in a match, I asked how I would stop losing time from hooking. They aren't mutually exclusive. Even if I play a good macro game, the time I spend hooking, is time that I grant the survivors to do whatever they want with absolutely no pressure applied to 3 of them. Macro plays also are a time investment on their own. I cannot do that while hooking (at least not without getting lucky as it requires bad plays from the survivors).
Basically your answer to my question is to play so good, that I can afford to lose time. But the same logic can be applied to everything. Every map could be Garden of Misery to the power of 3 and you could still argue that the killer only has to play a good macro game to beat the survivors because if everyone is constantly healing, on a hook or right next to the killer nothing gets done. But that is not how the game works.
Ultimately, the killer spends way too much time with everything they do, to keep up with everything else they have to do and there is little that can be done to optimise that. The killer role doesn't really work without slowdown and the nerf of these slowdown perks is only going to highlight that issue. Either that, or we'll see more slugging, camping and tunneling from people that try to force the game to a slower pace. I think none of these are good options. Worse, some people might actually try to and go back to Ruin + Undying. The survivor meta is almost back to 2021 and the killer meta might get there too.
No, I did answer that question. How do you stop from losing time while hooking? You make the time investment for hooking pay for itself by making sure you get the full benefits of hooking.
It's not just overcoming losing time by "playing good", it's understanding the time dynamics of the trial and what time isn't actually wasted. Yeah, three survivors are doing gens while you're hooking - that's normal. That's not relevant to your gameplan because some generator repair is always going to get done, you can't consider that wasted time because it was gonna get spent by the survivors somehow, they're players with agency.
(It's also not guaranteed, but that'd be getting too into hyper specific examples of specific perks and specific killers, so I'll leave that there)
Examples like the Garden of Joy break this because the other time investment - the actual chase portion - can take too long due to unbalanced amounts and placement of resources. If the chase is a reasonable time, though, the time spent on hooking isn't wasted, it's invested. Those two things are meaningfully separate and it is relevant to this conversation, because different perks govern this.
If the problem is that chases take too long, you'd run chase and info perks, not necessarily slowdown perks. This is part of how I'd argue against this idea that the killer role "doesn't really work without slowdown", because of course it does- you just have to understand how killer efficiency functions and that some progression of the survivor objective is inevitable. Being efficient doesn't mean stopping it entirely, it just means giving yourself time to progress your objective.
Obviously, slowdown perks make this easier and there's nothing wrong with them existing, but they should be considered a way to boost your basekit slowdown from macro play, not a replacement for it.
-
@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714964#Comment_3714964
absolutely not. you balance for the top.
you just make it fun for the bottom.
Why?
What would that actually achieve? Wouldn't you inevitably end up in situations where something's too strong for the majority of players but only decently strong for the top, and therefore statistically everyone just has to deal with something being OP because the top players don't struggle against it?
You balance for everyone. It's the only way live service games can work, not exclusively DBD.
-
@North85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715079#Comment_3715079
It's mathematically impossible to "spread pressure" or "play fair". Survivor objectives take less than 50% of time than the killer's objective takes, unless the survivors throw. But I'm fine with the killer nerfs, I didn't need more of an excuse to camp and tunnel anyway, played the game so long I've gotten lazy.
Only if you assume that literally stopping the objective progression of the survivor team entirely is the goal, which it isn't. It's just to slow it down enough for you to progress your objective.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715000#Comment_3715000
This is a 1 vs 4 game. By nature of the game, there’ll always be at least 1 people on Gens the whole time. Unless Survivors play badly, it’s impossible to “keep multiple Survivors busy at once”.
The only way to do this is to tunnel the first survivor out and make it 3v1. That way everyone is occupied and no one can do Gens. But surely Survivors hate this playstyle, isn’t it?
I mean. Yeah. One survivor is always gonna be on gens, most likely.
The problem is that you're assuming you only get value if gen repair stops completely, but in reality the only reason you're trying to affect gen repair at all is to give yourself time to progress your objective. Generators don't matter to you, otherwise, it doesn't matter if they all get done as long as you kill at least three survivors overall - generators are not your win condition in any way shape or form, you're only trying to stop them being done because it's the survivor's win condition.
One survivor on generators is FANTASTIC for you as killer. It takes forever for one survivor to do all five generators, you've got tons of time to complete your objective there.
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715000#Comment_3715000
You’re trying to explain nuance to me, while completely not understanding how higher level play works. “Spreading pressure” only works against people who are slow on gens. There’s a reason pretty much all high level killers camp and tunnel: it’s the only option. I’ve played this game for years and have tried pretty much every approach. There’s only one killer, so survivors always have more pressure on the killer. The spreading pressure tactic results in many hooks, but fewer kills.
The reason many killers - of any skill level - camp and tunnel is because it's significantly easier, and it's significantly easier because of base-game issues that make it hard to punish.
Spreading pressure is just a cornerstone of good skilful killer play and it is enough to win games if you're at the same skill level as your opponents. It just won't be easy depending on what skill level you're playing at, and you'll probably still lose about half of your matches, which is how it's supposed to be.
-
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714886#Comment_3714886
Ok. How do I stop losing time with literally everything I do? There must be something all these killers have overlooked the past 8 years. Even if we were to assume, that you wouldn't need to walk to the next gen, then that's still 17 seconds wasted just by hooking someone.
That means, the survivors get 17 charges for free, right? Actually no. Because it's 17 charges x 3 = 51 charges. From a total of 450 charges. That means, just for the hooking someone, the killer already loses ~11.1% of the gens. Now what happens, when they actually have to traverse the map, find survivors and chase them before hooking? That only makes it worse.
Please tell me, how do I speed up hooking? How do I stop the other 3 survivors from progressing while I am busy just going through the steps to get 8.3% of my objective done? After I had already to put in the bulk of the work by finding and chasing that survivor.
You're not wasting that time, you're spending it. After you're done, you get a hook, and that not only progresses your core objective, it opens up the window to generate more value.
A hook is something survivors must react to. Not straight away, necessarily, but at some point they are going to have to come for the save. So, you've got two survivors occupied there; one on the hook, one coming for the save. If you can get into a chase before the save happens (mobility helps here, but the main thing you're looking for is info - time invested into finding someone is actually wasted here), that's a third. While you're hooking, yes, three survivors can progress generators freely. Once you've finished hooking, that changes dramatically.
They're going to get some generator repair done. Stopping that isn't your job. Your job - aside from killing them, ultimately - is to slow it down and force multiple survivors at once to do something else. Who you're playing and what perks you bring will have an effect on how many options you have here, but downing and hooking are the big available ones by default, as well as injuries to a lesser extent.
In short, the answer to how you stop losing time with everything you do is just "macro play".
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714972#Comment_3714972
macro play in this game boils down to choosing an area of the map and playing defensively. It really isn’t that hard
Not to sound rude, but if that's your perception of the macro game, it might explain why you need to run so much slowdown.
There's more to it than that. Spreading pressure is integral to playing killer because it's the part of the gameplay that results in slowing the match down- and note that by spreading pressure, I mean forcing multiple survivors to react to things at once. Think about the sort of basic bread-and-butter situation the killer would be trying to engineer: One survivor on the hook, one in chase, one peeling off to save. That cuts the generator efficiency down hard while it's happening, so trying to cycle that is a cornerstone of basic killer play.
That's what I mean by "macro game". Not doing that is gonna require bringing a lot more slowdown to compensate for leaving the survivors to do whatever they want.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714964#Comment_3714964
I post scott because he IS biased, towards survivors. If i posted tru3ta1ent you'd see the opposite end of the bias.
That's not the bias I'm referring to, I laid that out pretty clearly.
-
@woundcowboy said:
I really don’t think there is much nuance though. This game is simple.
Assuming that's aimed at me, apologies if it isn't.
Of course there's nuance. Even if this game is comparatively simple - which I'm not sold on, honestly - it still HAS a macro game, and you can still perform very poorly in that macro game even with relatively short chases, which will impact your chances of winning quite heavily. I'm not sure what you'd call that if not nuance, especially when it comes to discussions about slowdown perks.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714948#Comment_3714948
Right, so you balance for everyone EXCEPT the players who are at the top? Its ok if survivors are massively OP at the highest level so tournaments have to restrict them so heavily?
No, you balance for everyone.
I personally do believe some things should be done to address problems at the top, but their absence from this patch doesn't mean this patch is inherently going to break the game for those players. Those at the top will still have good viable options to win their games if they're of equal skill level to their opponent, just like everyone else.
Also, to address the video you've posted twice now: My experience with watching DBD content creators - and to be fair I don't watch that many - is that they don't do a very good job of acknowledging their inherent bias when it comes to their own experiences. That might be true for Scott because he plays the game for a living very regularly, but it's definitely not true for the vast majority of the playerbase, no matter how any individual player might feel.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714919#Comment_3714919
You never balance games around "the average" player.
And if you do, please tell me when they are going to nerf skull merchant, who is obviously, per the statistics, the most powerful killer to EVER EXIST in DBD HISTORY. And stop wasting their time on killers who are UNDERPOWERED (per the data) like blight. Why does blight keep getting nerfed despite him being so weak?
Oh also, when are we going to buff nurse? Obviously if we balance around average players, we need to buff the killer who has been near the bottom of the list in kill rate since probably her inception.
Haven't we had this conversation before?
You don't balance for any specific group, you balance for everyone. If you need to weight your decisions towards any particular group - if, not when - then you weight towards the majority. This is the only effective and viable way to balance online live-service games, there are no other options that will work.
You also, and this is the fallacy you most frequently fall into, do not exclusively balance based around stats. The best example of why that's a bad idea is Nurse, who has a very low killrate due to her high skill floor and the fact that she's free so a lot of players actually give her a shot, thus increasing the sample size by a lot of players who inevitably aren't going to do very well. Does that change that Nurse is the strongest killer in the game and needed those few nerfs she got? No, but you'd miss that if you balance around stats. This is something you understand, because you brought it up.
In this case, you balance for everyone because the majority don't need these perks at all and they can be absurdly oppressive towards the top skill range. The only gaps here are weak killers (as in, characters, not players) being played at average skill ranges, but as long as they have some kind of slowdown - which they will - that's not a huge problem, just something to keep in mind.
-
I've never quite liked the whole "nerfing these very strong options will just incentivise camping and tunnelling" argument.
It doesn't leave any room for the nuance that comes with basekit slowdown and proper macro play. You already don't really need slowdown perks unless you're playing at the absolute highest level the main queue can offer you, and if you are there, you don't need four ultra strong slowdown perks all stacked together.
If it does lead to camping and tunnelling more, though, we can always just address those things as well, it's not like they aren't problems. Gen defence really should be de-emphasised as much as possible, any fallout that comes from that can be dealt with as it arises.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714900#Comment_3714900
I have already made it clear in other threads. I am tired of this argument that "it isn't necessary unless this game is your job". Or "SWF squads with clock callouts are rare" or "most survivors are bad you win most of your games"
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT KINDS OF GAMES I GET AND I'M TIRED OF YOU TELLING ME THAT.
I get these games CONSTANLTY. If i'm not running 2-3 gen defense perks, forget it, i'll lose 3 gens in the first chase, the first chased survivor will predrop 1 or 2 god pallets, and then the game is basically over at that point.
Stop projecting the games that YOU get onto other people.
It's entirely possible you, specifically, are one of the exceptions that I refer to in the post. It's entirely possible this applies to you because you're one of the small number of people it's relevant for.
There is no projection in responding to takes about how the game should be balanced, though. If you are one of those exceptions, the fact that your experience is not universal and does not apply to the vast majority of the playerbase is extremely relevant to any conversations about how the game should be balanced as a result.
Even for those I'm referring to (potentially including you) it's not as though there aren't options. Pain Res will still be more than viable, Deadlock will be more than viable, Grim Embrace will be more than viable, and that's just the stuff in this update. This idea that you need to run the absolute best possible stuff and that best possible stuff can't ever be nerfed doesn't apply to anyone, not even the exceptions to the overall rule.
I'm not telling you anything about the games you get. I'm responding to your argument.
-
I think that's probable, but you're falling into the trap of assuming that they'd be right to do it.
You currently don't need any slowdown at all unless you're someone who plays the game for a living and routinely faces against the top players in the world (a bias that those who this does apply to aren't great at recognising in themselves, but I suppose that's fair). It's nice to have, sure, but for the vast majority of the playerbase it just isn't necessary, you get more than enough slowdown just from playing the macro game and spreading your pressure properly.
Plus, y'know, there's the other slowdown perks that aren't being touched in this update and the ones in this update that are still going to be perfectly fine, so. Not like killer players are lacking options, perk viability is at the best it's been in a long time rn.
-
I don't know, how often are you actually in a position to get back to back saves within 20 seconds? Necessarily the cooldown is probably gonna be longer than that between uses because it also requires the killer to pick up a survivor.
I think this is probably fine, but obviously we'll need to test it.
-
@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714489#Comment_3714489
Red Spikes when kicked
Yeah, that should just be the warning spikes kicking in. If the system is fully active I'm pretty sure you can't kick the generator at all.
-
Was it just the spikes, or was the generator actually blocked?
The spikes show up a few regression events before the generator is properly blocked, iirc. They're a warning that you're close rather than the sign you've gone over.
-
I have two good strong builds I've been using a lot lately.
Build 1: Strength in Shadows/Botany Knowledge/Wicked/Flex pick. SiS and Botany make for crazy good self heals with added killer info as a cherry on top as well as helping you heal others faster, Wicked is extremely slept on for info to avoid killers trying to tunnel you, and the flex pick is typically either Overcome to break chases and get to the basement or Kindred for being a bit more on point with hook saves. I've been considering throwing DS in there for the flex pick too, now that it's buffed.
Build 2: Overzealous/Circle of Healing/Deja Vu/Resilience. CoH activates your Overzealous and allows you infinite resets of the speed buff on top of helping you and your team with healing, Deja Vu shows you which gens to prioritise with your Overzealous and stacks on top of it, and Resilience is a nice little bonus for if you're caught off guard. I run this with a Map and the addon for tracking totems, usually, but if I don't have those Resilience is replaced with Detective's Hunch. You could swap CoH out for any other boon and the build would function, but CoH is just the best one in general, so I use that.
I get pretty good success with both of these builds, they're pretty good.
-
The only consistently annoying thing about Skull Merchant games is how infrequently you actually get to play them instead of having your time wasted, from either side.
My condolences.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712379#Comment_3712379
One survivor slugged is still far worse than downing someone who can be hooked quickly, you've lost your time
But the alternative situation isn't hooking that survivor. They were just unhooked and, according to the basic premise of the situation we're discussing, you're not trying to hook them.
The alternative is that they don't bodyblock at all, and go reset or do gens. Having them slugged is absolutely better than that situation, even accounting for the extension to the chase with the unhooker that it comes with.
-
@BlackRose89 said:
To me, this just seems like another case of Survivor mains trying to gaslight killers into thinking that a strong perk isn't strong or annoying to go against every single match. Don't get me wrong killers do this also but honestly I see it way more from survivors. Survivors did it with both versions of DH(old DH for distance and the DH after that), MFT, CoH, BU+FTP, etc. Whenever killers complain or have concerns about strong perks or a combo of perks, they are told that it's just a skill issue or that the perks aren't that strong and most of the time get no valve at all from the survivors. Take DH in its most OP state(for distance) for example I can't tell you how many times I have seen ppl say "Oh it isn't that strong, most of the time you just DH into a wall and you go down." and even with the 2nd version of DH which was still pretty strong, the come back was "Oh you just wait it out and its a bad perk, skill issue." The issue I have with survivor mains is they never want to admit that when they have a strong perk that isn't actually strong and just a bad perk. When the eruption was super OP I saw a lot of killers who said it was strong and probably needs a nerf and I saw killers who said it wasn't also but the point is I saw killers who knew it was strong something I rarely ever see from survivors. I know this an us vs them post and I fully admit that but guess what this whole game is us vs them, the sides are not equal in strength and never will be the natural of an asym game.
That said my only issue with DS being used a weapon is that it's unfun and boring esp when you not even trying to tunnel as the killer. Its a boring interaction. Im someone who HATES slugging, I never do it and I don't like being forced to even if it's in my favor. I want hooks, that's what I play for, and when Im forced to slug you deny me a hook. Also slugging has never won me a game. A lot of times when Im forced to slug and usually end up losing badly that match so I disagree with the ppl who say it always favors the killer, in some situations it doesnt, and im living proof of that. That is just my two cents on all this and you can take it or leave it I don't care, Im going back to play OW2 since at least it's not a buggy mess and isn't actually fun to play nowadays unlike DBD.
This post is from the perspective of a killer player, and has nothing to do with how strong DS is.
-
Not for the better, I don't think.
While both sides would lose some strong tools, neither side would lose their equivalent of the other side's lost options, so those things would just get dramatically stronger.
Without regression, toolboxes become even more OP. Without Exhaustion, any chase perks become even stronger, comparatively.
Also, losing Exhaustion specifically wouldn't be great for the game. They're an interesting design space and they allow for some slight control over what perks are paired together, like how Iron Will can't be used while Exhausted.
-
@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712536#Comment_3712536
Im not understanding how the healthy unhooker could have that much distance? They don't get the speed boost that the body blocker gets from the hit and if you were chasing them to begin with they shouldn't be that far ahead.
On another note, I don't see why we all keep saying the unhooker. If that's always the case then it's no wonder gens are getting done. Running back to or proxy camping hooks to always hit the unhooker isn't going to do anything to stop the other 2 from doing gens.
To be fair, while you're right about that, this conversation can only happen if we assume the killer is back at the hook for some reason.
If they're halfway across the map pressuring other survivors, DS definitely can't be weaponised. I think it's fair to assume that it was like, an insta-save, or you just happen to be back at the hook because that's the only info you have, or something along those lines.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712482#Comment_3712482
"But I'm glad this is where the conversation has gone, because it's revealed now that the problem isn't survivors weaponising DS, the
problem is that you want to punish someone for annoying you and DS stops you from doing it."So you agreed it's an annoying thing to face, and it still doesn't count as weaponize DS? And now you're suggesting Killers to actually ignore these acts, and say it's BETTER to ignore them? So I just have to take the bodyblock in the face, leave them alone in Deep Wound just to get mended in 12s and get on Gens rightaway, all while I chase the healthy unhooker who's already miles away?
Just ask yourself. If DS doesn't exist, would these Survivors dare to bodyblock killers with BT/OTR? It's exactly because of DS Backup that allows them to weaponize these perks without any fear.
Yep. It's annoying to face, but it isn't weaponising DS, because the thing DS is doing actually makes it a BETTER situation for you as killer.
So yes. I am saying that you should ignore them. Ignoring them forces them to keep running after you so they can try to actually bodyblock, and hitting them once only when you cannot avoid it keeps them invested while you continue to chase the unhooker. Even if they do get put in Deep Wound and go mend + do generators… that's still noticeably less generator time than they'd have gotten if they weren't trying to bodyblock. Also, none of that is DS, that's all Endurance. Leading to…
Answering your final question: Yep. We've only had five-second DS for a short while at this point, surely you haven't forgotten that bodyblocking with BT/OTR has been a big thing this whole time? Like, straight up. Yes. Yes, survivors do body block without DS. They've been doing it this whole time.
-
@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712496#Comment_3712496
I see, but this relies soley on the idea that DS Bodyblock is always detrimental to the survivors. Which, if this were true, killers would slug the first survivor off hook all the time, because that would therefore always be the best thing to do, right?
Hypothetical. There's 1 gen left, and someone Body Blocks you off hook with DS, the unhooker is on death hook. Is your mindset "oh boy the next survivor is absolutely making it to the next god Pallet, but at least I have a slug while the last gen is being done across the map." Or are you thinking "I need that Unhooker dead right nooooooooow." Is Adrenaline in play? Is Unbreakable in play? You don't know either of these things. Depending on that answer, there's one or two survivors on the final gen, and that slug won't be slugged for longer than thirty seconds. You've lost five seconds of distance on the Unhooker, can you make it?
My mindset is the latter, I assume you're the former. This is likely where the crux of our disagreement lies. I simply don't see DS as nearly as hard to get genuine use out of in this context, and I don't believe these situations are as uncommon as you.
I don't want it to seem like I'm calling you crazy or anything, and tbh it's disappointing to see how uncivil people are about this. I'm still honestly less peeved about the actual perk effect and more annoyed that it's on what's supposed to be an Anti-Tunnel perk, and that a lot of survivors try the strat and then get upset in the endgame chat when it backfires. I liked 3 second DS more simply because at this current point in the games life where Tunneling was already one of the most hotly debated topics, buffing it to 5 seconds feels like a Bandaid for the strat without actually solving it whilst allowing for another toxic situation that doesn't even fit how the perk is designed.
The thing about that hypothetical is that the thing which is giving the survivors value is the bodyblocking, not the DS. That would still be in their best interest to do if the person who just got unhooked had no anti-tunnel tools at all, especially if they'd been on their first hook when they were saved.
Bodyblocking can absolutely be weaponised, both in legitimate/balanced ways and in problematic ways. The only thing DS adds to any of these circumstances is that it forces the killer to slug instead of just shrugging and hooking that survivor again.
In other words, it forces the killer to make the bigger-value play instead of following the path of less resistance. DS is the part that can't be weaponised because the impact it has on this situation is to push the killer into capitalising on the free pressure whether they'd know that's what they're doing or not.
As to the first question in that first paragraph: No, because they'd have to go out of their way to do it, and that'd waste a lot of time. In the scenarios we're talking about, the survivor is the one going out of their way to make sure the only investment the killer has to make is a weapon-attack cooldown, because they're making sure there's absolutely zero distance or resources between themselves and the killer. In that scenario, slugging is absolutely better because you don't have to do anything other than hit the survivor to achieve it. They're gifting it to you almost for free.
-
@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712485#Comment_3712485
To be blunt, no, those things aren't weaponising DS. They're weaponising bodyblocking.
I don't really know how to approach this conversation given this statement, as it feels so completely devoid of context within the match it makes the rest of the conversation essentially untraversable.
I'll say this, if someone Body Blocks and doesn't have DS, that survivor is on death hook and I have even more pressure than five seconds ago. If that survivor has DS, I'm getting a five second stun. No, a survivor a cannot force you to activate their perk, that does not prevent them from reaping the reward the perk grants them by nature of its presence. You made this argument yourself by saying the best thing to do against DS is purposely not pick up the surv, meaning DS actively affected your decision making process in the bodyblocking. How a perk can completely change the action you take in a situation, yet somehow be exempt from weaponizing said situation is something I simply don't feel like arguing over l.
If that hasn't convinced you that DS affects bodyblocking and allows it's weaponization, therefore being weaponized in the process, I don't really think this is a conversation worth either of our times, sorry.
Well, I'll try and alleviate that concern a little, because I do have an answer.
It did affect my decision making, yes, but the decision I made is better for me than for my opponent. As I've said multiple times in this thread, I do not consider a weapon that harms its user more than its opponent to be a weapon worth talking about or naming as such.
In the scenario you describe, you say that a survivor body blocking and not having DS means they're hooked again and that's more pressure for you, but it isn't, really, it's just more direct progression towards your goal. You're at best breaking even on the map pressure you're exuding because you're just resetting back to the same situation as before; one on hook, one coming for the save, two on gens. The two on gens haven't even stopped this whole time, for that matter.
You get more pressure from slugging the survivor who tries to body block regardless of if they have DS, because you're making more of a push for reactions from the survivor team. If they have Unbreakable, they have to use it and get it out of the way. If they don't, one of the two on gens actually has to come pick them up and that does even more damage to the team's overall efficiency, all while you're still occupying that unhooker in a chase.
Countering DS bodyblocking turns it into a tactic that benefits you. That's not weaponising, because it's your weapon.
-
@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712463#Comment_3712463
True, I've been able to swing a few matches from a 2 hooks to a 4k involving these strats, but that depends largely on survivor misplay, which again puts this "Anti-Tunnel Perk" back into their control. This playstyle is fundamentally against the perks design activation condition, which is to punish killers who won't leave unhooked survivors alone. It's why the Conspicuous Action condition is there.
And yes, survivors aren't always in the position for the unhooker to basically disappear or become unhookable, but what happens when they are? What happens when a survivor or a team goes into a match with this strategy in mind? Is that not weaponizing DS? Is this still somehow related to tunneling?
I also feel like Unbreakable is just largely being ignored as a possibility here. There are 4 survivors in a match, so a killer's time is 4 times more valuable than a survivors. A killer's weapon wipe is 2.7 seconds. Not counting the amount of time a killer may waste before realizing they need to hit the unhooked survivor, that's 5.4 seconds wasted on hits, 21.6 seconds in survivor time. With Unbreakable, 24 seconds wasted in survivor time on a single survivor is used to commit to the play. Yes, a killer's advantage, but keep in mind again that this is within a survivor's control, and they could have altered the situation before going into it to waste more time.
In the current situation, yes, I agree that DS bodyblock is a misplay. But there's a lot of BS in DBD, doubly so now that the latest patch is filled with enough bugs to make Bethesda blush. Do you think that there is no match that occurs where a survivor can waste five seconds for a killer, not get hooked for it, and the killer is the one who ends up benefitting? You don't think that on Midwich or The Game, an unhooker can make it to a window or pallet that justifies why a survivor team would choose to delay a hook for as long as possible? What if the killer is an Instadown killer like Oni or Bubba? That unhooker is a lot more vulnerable, the survivor team may have much more incentive to keep them safe for longer than an unhooked who's guaranteed not to get picked up without wasting even more of a killer's time. How about Plague? She loses Red Vomit on DS stun now, that's even more safety for the survivor What if the Unhooker is on death hook? You'd definitely want that DS Bodyblock to make sure they don't die right there and then.
We can't be referring to this perk in isolation, because there many factors wherein it simply becomes a better option than the alternative. This isn't an unpopular opinion either, it was a top 10 comp perk before it was buffed.
To be blunt, no, those things aren't weaponising DS. They're weaponising bodyblocking.
The core of my position is two statements, I'm gonna repeat them now just for easy reference.
Statement one: The survivor cannot force the killer to eat a DS stun, not even as the lesser of two evils like they could before the Conspicuous Actions change.
Statement two: The only thing the survivor can do is force the killer to slug them, and BECAUSE that outcome is always better for the killer than the survivor being up and about, that can't be considered weaponising.
You may end up in a position with DS bodyblocking where someone makes a pallet or a window, or a key generator gets done, or something along those lines. But, barring a very specific single perk in a very specific situation (Adrenaline, with the final gen being the one done because of this play— and even then they're injured instead of healthy afterwards), you will always have a slug on the ground while you recover from that blow, which is always better than that survivor being free to do whatever they want.
The reason WHY a killer's time is more valuable than a survivor's time is relevant here, too. The killer's time is more valuable because any one of their seconds spent outside of chase could be four seconds of generator time. Basically nothing else matters for this very specific concept, and in fact, pushing survivors to do other beneficial actions like healing is part of how killers spread pressure and play the macro game. Their goal, minute to minute, is to lower that "one second for me is four seconds for them" number as much as possible by forcing survivors into actions that aren't repairs, like saves, heals, and chases.
So, we can see with this in mind how a survivor slugged on the ground is always beneficial compared to that survivor being free to do what they want. If they're slugged, they're not contributing to that "one second is four seconds" number, but if they're up and about they are.
That's why your math is a little off, because you're not factoring in that you're already occupying two survivors. That 21.6 seconds number you cite is actually 10.8 seconds because only two survivors are actually using those seconds to progress the game, potentially.
To cap off, I'm actually not thinking of this perk in isolation. I am factoring in these things, which is why I come to the conclusion that the best case scenario that survivors can force with DS is still beneficial to the killer in at least some way. Even when survivors get as much as they can out of it, they're still giving the killer slowdown and potentially using up resources like Unbreakable.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712468#Comment_3712468
No, my ultimate goal is NOT ignoring bodyblockers. It’s KILLS. Why do you think Killers are called Killers??
If DS doesn’t exist, I WILL, 100%, NO MERCY, going for that fking trash Bodyblocker, and make sure he gets punished and die as quickly as possible. Wanna get in my way when I actually give you a chance to leave by chasing the Unhooker? Fine, YOU DIE.
Now DS literally eliminates the risk of Killer doing this, else you get punished with 5s stun, and Survivors getting away. How is this not counted as weaponising DS?
Oh, come on, that's a nitpick and you know it. Obviously when I say your ultimate goal is to ignore them, I mean insofar as countering their tactic, not the overall goal of the entire match.
But I'm glad this is where the conversation has gone, because it's revealed now that the problem isn't survivors weaponising DS, the problem is that you want to punish someone for annoying you and DS stops you from doing it. That's not the same thing, at all, even a little bit.
If you don't care about that element and you just want to respond with the appropriate tactic for like, winning, you'd ignore them because they're giving you free value. Same reason why flashlight squads can actually be great to go against for some players, they're free wins with very active gameplay— but they can be annoying to some players too.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712444#Comment_3712444
For your 3rd point, it’s 100% false, literally.
Yes, OTR allows you to bodyblock hits. But then Killer has two option. He either chase you, or continue to chase the unhooker.Now here’s what DS does. It STOPS Killers from going after YOU, even when you did such an aggressive play just because the risk of DS. No, don’t tell Killer to just slug you, because chasing & downing you takes time, while the remaining 3 Survivors are now all Gen Rushing without any fear because they know Killer can’t progress their objective (Hook You) even if you’re downed.
Yes you don’t get to actually ‘use’ DS to stun the Killer, but you already benefit hugely from it. If you still don’t understand, just play some Killer games.
But you're not going after that survivor anyway.
You are in chase with the unhooker already. Hit the OTR/DS user and keep chasing the unhooker.
Your ultimate goal when someone is trying to weaponise any kind of anti tunnel is to ignore them. You only hit them - into Deep Wound or into the dying state - if you can't avoid it. Otherwise, you just keep paying attention to the chase you're currently in. You don't reverse course and start chasing the person you know you can't hook just to slug them, you ignore them and slug them only if they make you slug them.
If they do make you, that's a good situation for you. If they don't, then you just keep chasing like normal. The best case scenario (and frankly, one of the more common ones) is that they'll keep running after you but won't actually have any doorways to bodyblock you in and you just get to chase two survivors at once for no downside.
I do play killer games. That's how I know these things, I'm pulling from my experience and my wider understanding of the game.
-
@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712379#Comment_3712379
It depends on the state of the match, no?
If the killer only has 2 hooks and the survs are at 2 gens, the survs being able to delay the possibility of a hook is a win-win for them, regardless of whether one of them goes down, because time is ultimately on their side, especially if another teammate is in the area for a pickup or unbreakable is in play. The survivor has no hooks, and the killer's only map pressure comes from someone they can't use to progress their objective. In this situation I would rather be halfway through chasing the unhooker with the unhooked survivor healing or on a gen than have so much time wasted with a slug I can't pick up and nobody new to chase in sight, but that's just me.
That said, if there's a time and point in the match where the killer is up, like 6 hooks 4 gens, a DS bodyblock isn't nearly as effective because the killer doesn't need to rush with finishing their objective, so I'd actually perfer getting two survivors off gens, less so if Unbreakable is in play, but that's a whole perk deactivated. One could make the argument that this line of thinking could apply to many other perks, but DS bodyblock being almost entirely within a survivor's control, having such a possibly annoying effect, especially when this is supposed to be for an Anti-tunnel perk, it just feels bad. If you'll notice, tunneling isn't at all relevant to the playstyle we're referring to, so what did I do to get it incurred on me, what was my agency here in activating a perk that was only supposed to be useful depending on the killer's playstyle?
That's ultimately my issue with current DS. I don't think it's an issue at all when it's actually an Anti-tunnel perk, but when I'm halfway through a MacMillan match where 2 gens pop in the first minute, I challenge my single unhook up to this point in the game, and then Meg fr decides to give me the biggest hug of her life while Vittorio sprint bursts to main building where I know he's got Boil Over to use upstairs, I'm sorry, but the Anti-Tunnel perk made me tunnel. I didn't wanna, but what else was I genuinely going to do there?
Not necessarily. I've had a lot of matches swing from two hooks to a 4k specifically because of tactics like this.
The fact of the matter is, letting the killer down you is always a huge risk. It's only really guaranteed to work if they take the bait and eat a stun, but if they don't, you've just given them a window to potentially snowball that game back into their control because they're creating a lot of situations the survivors need to respond to.
Also, again, people keep acting like slugging a DS user means starting a new chase, but it doesn't. You're already in a chase and that survivor didn't make that much distance, you keep chasing them. Sure, sometimes they have a very specific setup that makes chasing them a nightmare, but the times where a bodyblock makes the difference between them making it and you getting them are pretty damn rare.
The bottom line would be that immobilising a survivor on the ground is always better for you than that survivor going off to do generators. Hooking that survivor would be even better, but hooking that survivor isn't a situation that would be relevant to this conversation, so we necessarily must compare slugging them to them just being off and doing whatever they want away from you.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
Let's give a proper clarification on why OP's post is completely false and how weaponizing anti-tunnel perks is the most powerful strategy in the game when you have at least some knowledge of how to properly play the game.
First of all, we have three of the most popular DS synergies:
- DS + OTR
- DS + Plot Twist
- DS + OTR + Plot Twist.
Each one of these synergies is very powerful, and third is extremely powerful. But for now, let's stick with the DS only.
If an unhooked survivor bodyblocks another survivor and gets downed while their DS timer is ticking, killer's time is already being wasted by being forced into a situation where they have to either eat up the 5s DS, waste 20m of stun distance + chasing that survivor or slug the DS survivor, start a new chase and have the downed survivor be fully reset by another survivor. Remember that during this process, at least one survivor is left peacefully doing a gen.
DS combined with OTR makes you gain even more distance because you can bodyblock with endurance from OTR and then force a DS down. That means almost twice as much time already wasted than just with DS.
Now onto the DS + Plot Twist. You won't get bodyblocked with DS + Plot Twist, but survivor will down themselves usually right before you are able to get a hit. Either eat up the DS and continue the chase with too much time wasted, or slug the downed survivor while they are able to reset themselves completely without other survivors (yes, using Plot Twist while DS timer is active doesn't cancel DS), meaning bye bye map pressure.
Third combo, DS + OTR + Plot Twist is literally a mix of all of the above and is considered one of the best perk combos on survivor side. Now, you can also add Deliverance or Wicked into this equation, and any team that is at least kinda good will destroy 99% of the killer roster by having at least 2 people run anti-tunneling builds offensively.
Sooo…you can't weaponize DS?
Once you understand how wasting killer's time and learning how to chase is much more powerful and beneficial than trying to stick to 24/7 sneaky gaming and getting scared of the killer as soon as you hear TR while you are doing the gen, you will realize.
So, couple things.
1: When you're running down the use case for just DS here, you say that slugging the DS survivor means starting "a new chase", but it's not a new chase. It's the chase you were already having, and the survivor you were chasing got a protection hit's worth of distance. Not nothing, but not enough for it to count as a new chase, either.
2: Also in that first use case, you mention "have the downed survivor be fully reset by another survivor" as though that bolsters your point, but it actually undoes your point. That scenario involves THREE survivors off generators, and you expect me to believe that's somehow not beneficial to the killer?
3: DS combined with OTR just kind of circles back around to how a lot of people think scenarios where OTR is used to tank hits is somehow weaponising DS. That's not weaponising DS, it's bodyblocking with OTR. If they follow you for a second hit, you down them and THEN we start talking about DS, and you've also been chasing two survivors at once for that entire time.
4: I don't understand your point about Plot Twist at all. Just ignore them? They were going to reset anyway, they're not a target you're actually interested in at the moment. Just ignore them and let them use their perk while not actually stopping you from chasing their teammate. They get the exact same value as if they ran AWAY from you and used their Plot Twist.
I think this point (still on 4 here) sort of highlights that a lot of people only compare these aggressive bodyblocking plays with scenarios where they get to hook the person bodyblocking, but that's looking at it the wrong way. If you're not tunnelling, you're not going to be paying attention to the unhooked survivor anyway. If in these scenarios they get away with not getting hooked, that's the same as if they weren't being aggressive at all. The only difference is that they're gifting YOU more pressure by intentionally cutting potential generator efficiency down by a third because they want to TRY and weaponise their perks.
Moving on, yeah, you can't weaponise DS. You can't force the killer to actually eat the stun, and what you can force them to do - slug you - is as beneficial to them as it is to you at BEST. More realistically, it's JUST beneficial to them. A weapon that harms you more than your opponent isn't a weapon worth talking about.
As a brief aside, this argument all comes from the killer perspective, not the survivor perspective, so your attempt at snidely insulting my gameplay is missing the mark extra hard.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712413#Comment_3712413
saying "you don't get value from DS if you don't get picked up" is the same as saying "you don't get value from Corrupt Intervention if you get an early down" lol
Again, the "value" being created here is that you get slugged.
That's the value. That's the outcome of DS in this scenario, you get to be slugged, which forces you to either use up your Unbreakable (or Plot Twist? Does Plot Twist work if you aren't the one to down yourself?) or to drag someone else off generators to pick you up.
This isn't weaponising DS. The weapon here harms you, not your opponent.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712407#Comment_3712407
please check some high level gameplay, especially tournaments, and see how slugging a person with DS doesn't create nearly as much pressure as you think it does
Even if it's net neutral it still isn't in the survivor's favour. It's still not successfully weaponising DS because they don't get anything out of it from DS. All they get is the extension to chase that the bodyblocking gives them at the cost of being slugged, which uses up some kind of resource or requires someone else to peel away from generators if they want to undo it.
Also, I don't care about tournaments, I care about real games.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712379#Comment_3712379
how is it a lose/win situation if you are denied a hook after downing a survivor and are forced into another chase, especially if the unhooker was a healthy survivor?
Because you were never going to hook that survivor. You're ignoring them and continuing the chase you were actually interested in to begin with, and if they let themselves get downed to try (and fail) to get your attention, you now have two occupied survivors instead of just one.
That survivor just got unhooked, of course you weren't going to hook them again. If you were we wouldn't be having this conversation because DS would actually warrant activating. The survivor you're interested in for this hypothetical is the unhooker, who you are now completely free to chase unimpeded by someone trying to bodyblock.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
DS can force killers to a lose lose situation where they HAS to slug or take the DS, it can be certainly weaponized
Whether it's efficient or not is not relevant to it
That's not a lose/lose situation. That is a lose/win situation, because having one survivor slugged and one in chase is better for you than just having one in chase.
It used to be a lose/lose scenario because ignoring the survivor with DS meant they could progress the game in your face. Now, if you ignore them and they want to bait you, they have to waste time running around after you and trying to bodyblock.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712278#Comment_3712278
now look at it actually from the killer's perspective.
You are chasing the unhooker. Unhooked person goes their way to bodyblock you with basekit BT or just simply waste your time. You down them, you slug them. Now the unhooker is the one that is being chased while unhooked survivor wasted your time denying a hook. There is still one survivor peacefully doing a gen, or even two if the downed survivor with DS has Plot Twist (yes, DS with Plot Twist is an ultimate lose-lose for the killer).
This means you have huge chunks of your time wasted while you have 1-2 survivors doing gens constantly. Keeping pressure on survivors to hold them off gens is 100% reliable against survivors bad in chase who don't know the value of wasting killer's time, but against teams that know what they are doing, you are pretty much going to be cooled by having 1-2 survivors constantly and successfully waste your time, while the other ones do gens.
Remember that the alternative to this situation is the unhooked survivor not bodyblocking, and instead going to work on generators.
In the alternative scenario, you have three survivors consistently on gens while you're in chase. I'm sure you'll agree there's at least some amount of extra time in chase that would be worth it in order to cut down the gen efficiency by a full third?
-
@appleas said:
I would argue that DS truly can't be weaponized when stun/blind saves which result in another Survivor escaping the Killer's grasp is considered a Conspicuous Action.
What's stopping an unhooked Survivor with a flashlight and BGP + OTR/DS from running behind the Killer waiting for a blind or pallet save even when the Killer is chasing the unhooker or someone else?
This is definitely something worth raising, though I think it's slightly apart from the overall conversation being had in the rest of the thread.
Anti-tunnel in general suffers from this one specific lack in the Conspicuous Actions list and I'd like to see that changed. Getting a save should 100% be a Conspicuous Action and that applies to more perks than just DS.
-
@NekoGamerX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711967#Comment_3711967
think it also because they can have unbreakable with they can get back up everything the killer does waste they time as 2 or 3 survivors are on gens.
every hit wastes time so if the killer got to hit the same survivor 3 or 4 time that pretty much 4 gens with out trying.
also the whole weaponise DS is normally with lockers.
If they force you to slug them and then use Unbreakable, they've wasted two perks. They didn't get DS value, and they used Unbreakable when they could've needed it for a crucial moment.
In this scenario, it's not two or three survivors on gens, it's two. If the survivor who just got unhooked wasn't trying this bodyblock nonsense, it'd be three. That's why this is honestly better for you in most scenarios.
With lockers it's a non-issue, you can just ignore lockers in almost all scenarios.
-
@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712095#Comment_3712095
I mean they could easily just solve this in general since the point of anti tunnel endurance as well isn't you can just run around with a shield on protecting your teammates. For the length of the endurance. Make em lose collision. That way the killer can run into them if they have OTR or bt endurance. And if DS is in the mix. Maybe after like 10 seconds or something make protection hits disable DS. Then they just go back to being exclusive to protecting you. Like they are kinda supposed to. No need to keep arguing the point when they could easily fix the miniscule abuse they do have. (Despite how minor it can be)
I'm absolutely in favour of these changes, but they'd fix other problems. They're not fixes to survivors weaponising DS, because that's almost impossible and barely a problem when it can be done.
It would be a good idea, though. I'm not arguing against those changes.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712098#Comment_3712098
Bruh. Changed this part, so you can understand it better.
I wasn't intending to be pedantic, those are completely different statements.
In that case, you're overestimating how much distance survivors actually make after a protection hit. It's not nothing, but it isn't enough that the chase ends up dragging on forever, and you still have a slug on the ground giving you more time to chase because you're getting more slowdown out of it than normal.
The situation you're describing is beneficial to you, not to the survivors.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712095#Comment_3712095
Who even said I am going to pick him up? If I pick up a survivor with ds, I will no longer find the trace of the survivor I was originally running after to begin with. It is clear as 2+2 that I will slug him.
…Then what's the problem?
You said you "eat DS", which you're clearly not doing if you're slugging the survivor. You do have to give the unhooker a little bit of distance, but you get a slug out of it, which is to your benefit.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712089#Comment_3712089
Are you sure you've ever played dbd at all?
I'm catching up with a injured survivor and I'm about to reach him, then survivor comes running in and forces me to eat DS. Survivor I was chasing initially runs to a safe place, chase increases for AT LEAST another 30 seconds. In the worst case, one perk gained enough time to fix one generator. At best, he won the game, even if it was on an equal match before this moment. And that's ONE perk on ONE survivor.
I'm not even going to say how strong hooking cancellations are now in any way due to the fact that the whole killers meta is based on this, because it seems like you don't understand it anyway.
It's cringe to see people defence weaponizing DS, because survivors cried for two years "we need DS 5 seconds back, we get tunneled so much" and now they literally asked for that. Turned out survivors just wanted "I want to be invincible and annoy killer without any punishment." Never happened before and here we go again.Why are you eating DS? You do not have to pick up a survivor you know has been recently unhooked.
Slug them, and go keep chasing that injured survivor. They get a protection hit's worth of distance, and in exchange, you're occupying two survivors at once. That's to your benefit.
Yes, denying hooks is very strong. DS cannot be used to deny hooks unless the killer is tunnelling, because it can't be weaponised in the way that people are talking about it being weaponised. You never have to take the bait, you never have to eat DS.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712088#Comment_3712088
I think to assume all of these high skilled groups only do it because of entertainment purposes would be very disingenuous.
Also the best thing they can do is not gen rush builds, it’s stacking second chance perks because they know the only way the killer can win is through tunneling or slugging, of which those perks are the counter.
I didn't say they only do it because of entertainment purposes, I said they're biased in favour of tactics that are more engaging because they've already played the game a ton and need a little bit of spice to continue enjoying it.
How do you mean "the only way the killer can win is through tunnelling or slugging"? That's not even remotely true at any skill level of the game, you don't need to do either. You probably will do a little bit of one or both over the course of multiple games just because it's generally useful, but you don't need to do them. If killers did need to and did so reliably there'd be no reason to talk about weaponising DS because it'd be guaranteed to work every time without needing to be forced.
The best way for skilled, coordinated teams to win is absolutely real genrushing. There's very little the killer can do against spread out survivors each doing generators in half the time because of ridiculously stacked toolboxes and supporting perks, if the killer doesn't get lucky with spawns at the start of the match it's basically guaranteed to be a loss for them. This also basically never happens.
Now, I can't prove why it doesn't happen, but I don't think it's absurd to suggest that it's because it's very, very boring to do more than once in a long while.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/413039/you-cant-weaponise-ds
This could only be said by a person who completely does not understand how even one canceled hook can affect the game.
You don't get cancelled hooks from someone trying to weaponise DS, though?
You get a slug.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712076#Comment_3712076
So all these comp groups I face and groups with a combined hour totals of going up to even 35k+ hours are all just wrong and don’t realize it but you you are right about this instead of them? Really?
All these groups with high hours aren’t dumb, they do it because it’s not as bad of a play as you think it is. You are looking at only net surface level value and ignoring all the other nuances. That guy going down is worth it if the guy the killer is trying to get is on death hook and that hit gets him to main building where he can buy a ton more time.
No, but I think the comp groups and groups with combined hour totals of etc etc etc are probably biased in favour of more active and aggressive playstyles because that's how you keep the game engaging after that amount of time.
The absolute, single best thing any team can do is hardcore genrush with a full stacked genrush build. Very few teams do this because it's kind of boring. They pick the more active tools, and the things that have a flashier win condition even if that win condition isn't guaranteed. See: The possibility of stunting on a killer that actually ate your DS, even if most of the time all you get is slugged.
Or maybe they don't get slugged most of the time. My post isn't even aimed at survivors, it's aimed at the killers who seem to not realise the way you counter this tactic is to just ignore the survivor trying it.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712057#Comment_3712057
What is the point in discussing it? You labeled this thread "you can't weaponize DS", which means you refuse to change your mind too.
Because if you were considering both sides, you should have named the thread something like "can DS be weaponized".
I did consider both sides, which is how I came to the conclusion that you can't (usually, see below) weaponise DS.
I'm open to changing my mind. Someone a little above you actually pointed to a very niche scenario that you can weaponise DS in, sorta. You just actually have to argue in favour of that position against mine, because mine is more than a passing, interested question. I've thought about my position and have reasons for thinking what I do.
-
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712063#Comment_3712063
Do I get anything out of having that guy on the ground? No. Because having someone on the ground for 30 seconds doesn't progress the game. That's why bodyblocking with DS is a thing. The killer's progress is delayed by the amount of time it takes them to down that survivor after the protection hit. During that time 1-2 survivors still progress like normal. So if it takes 20 seconds to down that survivor, then that's 20-40 extra charges on gens and potentially a wasted Pop / Pain Res (doesn't affect me but I feel like it's worth mentioning).
The difference between bodyblocking and bodyblocking with DS is that first you don't need to be healed and second even if you go down, you're still not in any danger because the killer cannot hook you for as long as DS is up. How is that just bodyblocking? You can tank 1 health state more than normal with pretty much no risk at all.
The funny thing about slugging is that it usually happens on the killer's terms. One condition for effective slugging (normal slugging that is because hardcore slugging is a completely different case) is that it needs to happen somewhere where the killer can actually get the other down shortly after. For example, you wouldn't do that on GoJ because the second down will take much too long.
If this is actually "throwing" the the game, then what's the harm in removing this? Wouldn't that be good for survivors because then their team mates will no longer "throw" the game by bodyblocking with DS? I suggest to buff DS to 7 seconds stun time, increase the active duration to 80 seconds, make base kit BT make that survivor completely lose collision with the killer and become invincible to any attacks during that time and then deactivating DS upon taking a protection hit.
10 seconds of invincibility is more than enough to get away from your team mate, so that a protection hit cannot happen. If necessary, add a map wide Bond effect, so that you can avoid running into any other survivors and risk DS deactivating. This would make the perk stronger against tunneling but remove the offensive use of DS. So it should be a win-win.
Yep. The slugged survivor isn't able to progress the game or help their teammates, and getting them up either requires using up their single charge of Unbreakable or dragging a third survivor off generators. That is absolutely something you get out of leaving that person on the ground.
Is it as good as hooking them? No, but we're not comparing it to hooking them, we're comparing it to them not being aggressive with bodyblocking to begin with. It's absolutely better for you than that.
As to the last part, I have no issues with those changes. Those would be great! They'd be a fantastic way of making anti-tunnel more generally potent without opening up the possibility of it being weaponised. It'd be a great way of making survivor tools stronger for their intended purpose without unhealthy downsides.
What it wouldn't be is a fix to survivors currently weaponising it, because trying to do that throws the game in nine cases out of ten and is barely a problem in that tenth case anyway.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712066#Comment_3712066
Flashlights squads and head on plays are meme’ing and fun things. You aren’t talking about fun things, you’re talking about just standing in front of someone blocking a doorway to let their team finish a gen in time. I think to assume ALL these squads are doing it just for funsies would be extremely disingenuous.
Forcing them to slug IS in their benefit since it forced a hit giving the other person more distance to get away. That IS literally weaponizing DS. It’s forcing a slug that helps them.
I don't think all squads are doing it for fun, but I do think most of them are probably severely overestimating how good of a tactic it actually is. They're all probably banking on the killer actually picking them up, which would actually be to their benefit.
For that second part, I just disagree. Having one person on the ground and one person in chase is a worse setup for the survivors than one in chase and three on gens. It's a marginal amount of distance in most cases and it comes at the cost of one of the team members being immobilised, that's not to their benefit.