jesterkind
jesterkind
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731290#Comment_3731290
It's not just toolboxes. You don't need gen speed-up to have fast gens. Just efficiency. Killer decisions and actions are actually the least meaningful they've ever been. What's the #1 or #2 most difficult thing to do as killer at high level? Hit a survivor. They'll pre-drop, force the stun, force the entity blocker, whatever it takes to make a hit as difficult as possible. So why people are protesting anti-loop killers when you play to lose as an M1, I'll never understand. Even M2s. Hillbilly, Demogorgon, Wesker have some of the most telegraphed abilities in the game, and people think they're strong. With decent gen defence, they might have been. But look at what we're left with. Nothing.
I don't think any of that is true.
For the record, though, I do think survivors can get reasonably efficient gen speeds without items or perks, of course. It'd be kind of unbalanced if they couldn't. I just mean that generator speeds are only a problem when toolboxes (and supporting perks) are used— the efficiency survivors can get without toolboxes and perks is manageable and fair. A harder game, as it should be when your opponents are really trying, but perfectly winnable in most cases.
To the rest of that… I don't know, I don't mean to be rude but it kinda just sounds like you're facing survivors that are better than you, if you struggle to even get a hit against them.
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731630#Comment_3731630
They were a bully duo working together to engineer the plays.
They can't engineer you into picking up the survivor with DS, you have to make the decision to take the bait they're putting in front of you.
If there's two people buzzing around you, and one just got unhooked, that's the one you need to ignore.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731651#Comment_3731651
There's still two dudes on generators while you're fruitlessly chasing two survivors who are the next best thing to invincible. Progress is being made for the survivor team while you're faffing around being bodyblocked or slugging the survivor who almost certainly has unbreakable.
It's undeniably strong, which is why good survivors do it.
The alternative is to have three dudes on generators while you're chasing the one survivor for a slightly shorter amount of time, so that's a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's undeniably more fun than resetting or playing it safe, especially if the killer takes the bait, which a lot of killers do. That's why survivors in general do it.
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@TheRealConsent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731639#Comment_3731639
Then you're either playing Nurse, or are not getting survivors that know what they're doing.
I'm talking about scenarios where you DO need to hit them. Any survivor with enough brains will absolutely manage to bodyblock you. Either on the corner of a loop, between 2 rocks or a doorway. You're going to have to hit. Then, the same situation will repeat. Two hit cooldowns against the unhooker will lose you too much distance for that chase to be worth anything, and you won't be able to pick up the one guy you did down.
Nope, I play weaker killers for the most part. Strongest I play on a regular basis is Nemesis. Or maybe Skull Merchant? Whichever of those two you think is stronger.
Yes, I'm talking about those scenarios as well. You ignore them until they force it with that scenario, you hit them to remove their collision, and then you CONTINUE ignoring them. They will need time and distance to get into position for another bodyblock again, time and distance during which you're gaining on your actual target and during which they're not progressing generators or resetting or contributing anything at all to the match.
In that scenario, the scenario you're describing, you are just chasing two survivors at once. That's a win.
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@TheRealConsent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731630#Comment_3731630
True, my bad. I should have let the bodyblocker tank 2 hits, ruin my pressure on his teammate, then let him stay on the ground so that his teammates can come pick him up later.
Why don't I just give you guys a free gen?
Yep.
Ignore the bodyblocker until you absolutely have to hit them, then continue ignoring them while chasing the unhooker. The unhooker gets a little bit of distance, but you get to chase two survivors at once. That's a win/win overall.
Also, if you slug that survivor and someone else comes to pick them up, that's THREE survivors being occupied. That's even more of a win.
Finally, "you guys"? I'm a killer player primarily.
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To be fair, at no point do you have to get stunned by DS. You're always making the active choice to pick up someone you know was unhooked recently in those scenarios, and you could actively choose to ignore them instead.
You're always opting in to letting survivors bully you with DS. Just don't do that, lol.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731391#Comment_3731391
no. it would be 4% regression event which is below the 5% number. to get other 4%, you run the surge perk.
The regression event number is 2.5%, not 5%, for the record.
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@Crazewtboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731299#Comment_3731299
That could be an interesting concept yes.
You're right. Perfect games are extremely rare. But what isn't rare is feeling like you made less mistakes than the survivors you play against and still losing. Unless you are running a killer with a decent chase power, most competent survivor teams can usually undo any pressure you apply. Even against a good killer, I'd say an experienced survivor loops for a minimum of 30 seconds (that is without factoring in exhaustion perks and some maps that have a good amount of safe loops). That's a third of a solo gen, or about half of a two-man gen assuming there is no perks/toolboxes in play. If you down the survivor there, you might be able to stop a gen from finishing while losing another, and then the cycle repeats itself until a survivor makes a critical error that allows a snowball or all the gens complete.
If the chase goes longer than 30 seconds, you are likely losing multiple gens for a single hook state if you commit to the chase. If you drop chase, you may be able to stop the gens being worked on from being popped, but that survivor you've left will just go hop on a generator instead, and now you are back to square one. Some killers with stronger chase power might be able to fix this, but a good chunk still fall short.
Overall survivors can make way more mistakes than killers and still come out on top with gen times. I apologize if I misunderstood your original statement, and I don't disagree that the state of the game as far as skill mattering for killers has come a long way compared to years prior. I just think it is far from perfect and worth noting skill isn't the only factor
While I can't say for sure because I haven't personally seen these games, I strongly suspect the players who feel this way probably aren't playing as well as they think.
I don't necessarily blame them for this, though, because it can be very hard to learn the more 'hidden' aspects of fundamental killer play. Something like chase time can be very easily measured and you can see your improvement in that specific area of skill expression yourself, but there are a lot of players who don't even know what this game's macro play looks like, let alone how well they're performing in it- and in their defence, it's not as though anything in the game would clue them in to this concept.
I'm aware it can be a little reductive and dismissive, but I do truly believe most of the people who claim that they make very few mistakes and still lose are only paying attention to how short their chase times are, and not any of the otehr crucial skills + concepts for winning matches of DBD.
(Also, I'm pretty sure those players still hover at around a 50% winrate, which would be balanced even if the specific way their losses manifest could be frustrating to experience.)
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@Crazewtboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731290#Comment_3731290
Only way to really find out would be to test it I guess. If they nerf the speed of toolboxes though my question is this: What would their new purpose be? Just sabotaging hooks?
I'd also have to personally disagree on some points though. There is plenty of instances where you can play a near perfect game, but a team of coordinated survivors can still smash out gens, even without toolboxes. So long as everyone has basic looping knowledge and can read the HUD, you can still lose matches despite making minimal/no mistakes.
I would personally propose just replacing the current repair speed increase with something else. One of the ideas I've seen floated around that I quite like is having toolboxes "lock in" repair progress so a gen can't go below a certain amount, which of course would come with the actual repair progress being default speed- but there are probably a ton of options for what it could look like that I'm not even aware of.
To your second point, perfect games are extremely rarely ever played, and you should expect that your opponents have the ability to win consistently if they play better than you do. Besides, that wasn't actually my statement- even if that is true now, it used to be even more true. We're in the best time the game has seen for skill expression mattering for killers.
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I think gen times are absolutely fine, and we're in the era of DBD where a killer's actions and skill expression have the most impact on gen times ever.
The only real problem that exists outside of poor macro play and over-reliance on regression perks is toolboxes, in my opinion. At least, from the killer side- from the survivor side, stacking regression perks can be pretty obnoxious, so I wouldn't mind that being tackled at the same time as toolboxes.
It'd be tempting to say that "gen progression" is the problem from the killer perspective, but it really is just toolboxes. Without toolboxes, all the other gen progression tools are totally manageable and fair, even when stacked.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730595#Comment_3730595
A survivor won't be repairing generators if the killer is in the area trying to find a survivor. It doesn't matter what perks that survivor has, This isn't a choice between repairing generators and not repairing generators. It's a choice between hiding from the killer with infinite aura reading, or hiding from the killer without infinite aura reading.
You've kinda got to pick your scenario, though, because there are two things sort of being conflated in this thread.
There's survivors using this incidentally, when they're just trying to hide, as you say here. Then, separately, there are SWF players trying to leverage it for perfect callouts at all times, which you mention in the original post.
In the case of the latter, it's really inefficient and risky.
In the case of the former, it's already weak to killers not needing to look for you because they brought info perks and already know where you are, and it's risky because you still have to stay exactly where you are and not crouch-walk away, which is usually how stealth like that works.
Then, on top of those reasons, the fact that the killer has such a wealth of good builds/perks to use that would completely shut the tactic down if they planned ahead (assuming it gets popular enough to warrant that) should be the final nail in the coffin. Whatever the scenario we're looking at, outside of rare instances where the perk combo isn't popular at all so you're caught off guard by someone just trying to hide once in a blue moon, it's just not going to be that big of a deal as far as I can see.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730480#Comment_3730480
I also don't think it'll be a huge problem. Pretty sure the swf with perfect killer location callouts is vanishingly rare.
However it's pretty conceivable that a survivor using this to hide from the killer will also have distortion: the one size fits all aura perk. It'll be a huge pain in the ass to find somebody with this stuff that doesn't want to be found.
At that point, the survivor's doing nothing and you're gonna win because the team is playing a 1v3. It'll be kind of annoying to wait out the EGC, but they're not gonna get anything out of that tactic, so I can't imagine it's gonna become super popular.
Still, kind of annoying, I'll grant you that.
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I'll be keeping an eye on it, of course, but I don't personally anticipate this being a huge problem.
On top of it being very inefficient and a fairly noticeable risk (you can't move, at all, to use this perk), there's another thing that leads me to believe this probably won't be unhealthy.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, this combo gets wildly popular- it may not be every survivor in every game, but there's a reasonable chance of seeing at least one person running it in your average game. That means that all forms of Undetectable and Blindness get significantly more useful, because even the weak ones disable two perks at once and dismantle a survivor's entire gameplan, but it also makes certain info perks more potent because the survivor you reveal is a sitting duck intentionally not moving.
I think it's okay for some strong things to exist and put pressure on players to bring off-meta perks to counter them. As long as there are numerous options, which there are, and the options you have available aren't terrible perks you'd be throwing by bringing normally, which they aren't (at least not all of them), that's a healthy way of encouraging a meta shift.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730276#Comment_3730276
Making them killable without prerequisite would only be a viable idea if the zombies were much better and more importantly reliable.
Maybe also making their base respawn time shorter and triggering Killer instinct when a zombie dies would kinda compensate for the loss of built-in slowdown by enhancing the info and presence.
There would be a prerequisite, though, they'd need to be in the whiff animation.
I don't personally think that's a pedantic distinction because the survivor still has to actively cause that to happen. Even when they're not in chase and they have the room move as necessary, it'd still carry a degree of risk considering we're buffing the attack itself in this hypothetical, and it'd still take time to do.
We also are making them better and more reliable, that's the main change being pitched. Make them much more reliable in chase by making the attack something a survivor actually has to try and dodge rather than something that whiffs by default.
I'm not against giving a little info when the zombie dies, though, that'd be a fair addition.
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@Skillfulstone said:
If zombies could be easily killed without requirement outside of chase, then zombie add-ons would be even less relevant since zombies aren't really meant to even get hits outside of careless/inexperienced Survivors unless the Survivor gets sandwiched between Nemesis and the zombie mid-chase (or the Survivor uses the zombie for a free speed boost if not infected).
The zombies are mostly there for (unreliable) info and (unreliable) minor slowdown since they can harass Survivors off of gens and point out nearby Survivors. The info and minor slowdown they provide is arguably one of the only reasons why he's not one of the worst Killers in the game (although he has miserable killrate), being easily taken out would essentially take away his already rng-reliant info and minor slowdown.
If anything, the zombies could use a tad more speed basekit (alongside a needed AI upgrade so they aren't allergic to hills).
The relevant zombie addons - speed, detection range, and arguably the Mutation increase for killing them - are either unchanged or improved by this idea.
They'd still be info, because you'd still see them start to chase survivors and see them get knocked down if survivors try to kill them. They'd also still be some minimal slowdown, since survivors would have to go out of their way to dance around the zombie to make it whiff and then go through the animation.
Some zombie addons would also get a little better- the ones for respawn speed would be more relevant if they're actually being used consistently. Not to mention hypothetical new addons that buff you when a zombie's killed.
Frankly, I would be happy to trade the slowdown you get from zombies away entirely to stop them being so useless even in their best scenarios in chase. I still think you'd get comparable slowdown out of zombies overall, since survivors would have some incentive to go out of their way to kill zombies even outside of being harassed away from gens, but if I'm wrong about that - fine by me. I'd rather see them do something much more impactful.
Nemesis isn't that bad, also. He's like. Fine. Tentacle Strike is strong but fair, and the zombies are a little lacklustre, hence the buff idea here.
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Killers have basekit slowdown, it just requires playing well to use.
I personally haven't noticed Chaos Shuffle proving that killers need slowdown, since I don't run slowdown that much myself and so reacting to what perks I have has revealed more that I as a player tend to rely on info perks. If anything, I'd say that proves that players - not an inherent element of the role, but the specific human people playing it - can get too dependant on their perks of choice to perform well.
People tunnel for the same reason people run multiple slowdown perks: It's easier. Those perks are strong, and that tactic is deeply difficult for survivors to punish due to a lack of strong defensive tools against it. Players who rely heavily on either are going to notice their games being harder when those things are taken away, but that doesn't prove that the game is flawed such that their role requires those things. It just reveals that those players got dependant on them.
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@Skillfulstone said:
Ok so, even though the perk itself was DOA (I honestly don't think I've ever seen the perk outside of adepts and Doctors using a skillcheck build, and even then it's not like it gives much value against Survivors with a kernel of experience), I recently found out (due to the new random mode) that the perk "Undone" actually takes away 2 regression events per kicks if tokens are used. Warning spikes showed up at 2 kicks and 2 kicks later the middle gen of Ormond was unkickable. Had to make sure I wasn't crazy so I confirmed in a custom with a friend afterwards.
Like, you can't make this up, a perk that's made for the specific purpose of making Survivor's mistakes cost them more (more missed skill checks=more regression) actively works against you by effectively halving your regression events. And this perk released almost at the same time as the Anti-3-gen!
The Shuffle mode, since it makes me use, and face, perks that I haven't used/faced in months, is reminding me why perk variety went down since the Anti-3-gen and only worsened with time. Literally all it would need to be perfect is to only trigger at 2 gens remaining (4-gen spawns are sadly a thing).
(Side-note: getting Boon: Illumination, Detective's Hunch and Kindred just overloads the screen with aura it's hilarious XD).
Huh, really?
That sounds like a bug to me. Surely that perk should work like Pop and have the whole activation only count as one regression event? I haven't actually used it, so maybe there's a delay before the extra regression kicks in…
Should probably be changed either way, though.
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Try shutting down Steam and opening it again, sometimes that does it.
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Did last year's anniversary have any balance change announcements like that? I may be misremembering, but I feel like the anniversary stream is more for system mechanics and other less granular changes.
There's a separate roadmap we've been shown a few times for specific balance changes, right?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717922#Comment_3717922
they buffed her footsteps sounds because her previous version was not good stealth.
I personally really like this sound design, as it gives me a chance to notice killers approaching even in stealth, while still making you be aware of your surroundings and on edge a bit.
this terrible sound design is rank 20 balancing. It is making killer that are suppose to be good at stealth into killer that are bad at stealth. the fact that dredge for example is worse stealth killer then killer like silent leatherface or silent Oni is silly.
Her previous version was bad stealth for more reasons than just the footsteps, to be fair. I could see her footsteps being made a little louder than they are and her stealth still being appropriately good.
I'm not saying that should happen, just that there's a clear reason why she doesn't have an audio tell when other killers do, so giving her one outright wouldn't be appropriate.
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To be fair, Skull Merchant's stealth is more balanced around a very short duration, so I'm not sure if giving her a proper audio tell would really be appropriate.
Maybe just making her footsteps a bit louder would be a good middle ground, if the devs decided to address this?
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@bornagain234 said:
If their logic is some killer perks are highly used, take nothing to activate and give lots of reward why isnt windows of opportunity being touched then?
Probably because of that last part?
Windows is nice, but it doesn't have anywhere near the level of direct impact on a trial as Deadlock or the other regression perks.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716912#Comment_3716912
Defending the generators IS a part of the killer's objective since losing all of the gens means that survivors have the means to escape and the killer's primary goal is to prevent the survivors from escaping.
Defending the generators is one of the tactics a killer might use in order to achieve their goal, that doesn't make it part of that goal.
Moonwalking at a tile is something you might do to increase your chances of winning, it doesn't mean it's your objective to do it.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716928#Comment_3716928
Still, saying it’s “easy” should not have been part of the justification. And as other people are saying in hear, there are countless perks that give you value for no effort, such as windows and sprint burst.
You can't really disentangle it being easy to activate from the justification, though. The two halves of that statement both rely on each other to be true.
Which is, for instance, why other perks that give you value for comparatively little effort may not require nerfing. Windows might be as easy to activate as Pop - easier, even - but it's obviously not even close to as strong. The two things in combination make up the justification, not one or the other.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716896#Comment_3716896
getting hooked is failing.
Being tunnelled isn't, though.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716916#Comment_3716916
Even still, my point still stands: Pop is being nerfed because it’s too easy to get, meanwhile perks like DS and unbreakable reward you for losing a chase, and generally existing.
Well, that brings things back to my previous point, which is that it's not JUST how easy it is to get. It's the ratio of strength and ease of use, probably combined with pickrate and overall community sentiment for good measure.
Plus, DS is being nerfed. DS is being nerfed in the exact same patch that Pop is being nerfed in. You literally can't use it as an example of a perk being overlooked despite fitting the criteria because it's not being overlooked.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716896#Comment_3716896
They failed once when the killer caught them in the chase, then they failed again after being caught off the hook. In fact, you might even say it’s 3 times since basekit BT is a thing. The goal of an individual survivor is to do gens and not get caught. Getting caught means they were outplayed.
Referring to being hooked as "failing" is stretching it a little bit, but might be strictly accurate. Referring to being tunnelled as failing is definitely just wrong, there's a reason people do it and it's because it's difficult to punish if you aren't exceptionally skilled.
As you might imagine, starting a chase on an extreme back foot makes it far more likely for you to be caught.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716890#Comment_3716890
I just want to say that I disagree on that because any perk that requires you to lose an objective should always be strong in any game.
Also, by that logic, that means that ALL perks(for both sides) that are strong with little effort needed should be nerfed. That logic will never justify a nerf until that kind of action is taken meaning that if that logic is being used on the killer side it also has to be used on the survivor side as well.
To be fair, the logic wouldn't necessarily require every perk in that vein to be nerfed, it'd just require all of those perks to be comparable to other tools, right? They can still be strong, as long as they don't eclipse other tools to make them obvious choices.
Also, you aren't losing an objective to activate Deadlock. Survivors are your objective, not generators. Killers don't really have perks that activate when they "lose an objective", but they do have a few that require survivors to progress theirs, which isn't quite the same thing.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716873#Comment_3716873
By that logic, why are there so many perks that are “easy” and not being addressed? Hell, decisive is being buffed and the condition for that perk is the survivor failing twice.
Presumably because of the other half of the statement, which is how effective it is in conjunction with how easy it is. Also because it's one of the top picked perks on top of being very effective + easy to activate, I'd assume.
Also, not the point, but DS is being NERFED and the survivor isn't failing at anything by being tunnelled.
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I think you're maybe focusing too much on one half of that statement instead of the whole thing.
Like, it's not just that it's easy to activate, it's that it's VERY EFFECTIVE for how easy it is to activate. If you do the bare minimum with DMS and Undone, for example, they are nowhere near as effective as Deadlock. For Corrupt Intervention and Grim Embrace, while they're more effective, they're also single-use; Corrupt only at the start, GE only doing more than Deadlock on the fourth stack. Also, Grim Embrace is also being nerfed, so clearly BHVR are applying that logic to GE too.
Also, I'd point out you're only considering other gen-block perks when you should probably be considering all slowdown. Deadlock is completely passive in a way that most slowdown perks aren't, which can make it seem like an obvious choice to put in your builds compared to or in addition to the others.
I'm not necessarily saying it deserves a nerf, mind you, but I don't think BHVR's rundown of the perk's strength is incorrect. It is very effective for how easy it is to activate, and it isn't in line with other tools because of that.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716873#Comment_3716873
While true, there are survivor perks that do the same. We'll Make It can be argued to have the same amount of work to get to activate for a strong heal post-hook.
Survivor gets hooked > Naturally you unhook them to have a better chance to survive > +100% healing speed.
And I don't think a single one of us wants We'll Make It nerfed.
Like I said, I'm not weighing in here on whether or not Pop should be nerfed. That's a very different conversation.
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I'm pretty sure they meant that it's easy to use when it comes to what you're doing specifically because of the perk.
Yes, you have to invest time and skill into getting a hook, but you're doing that anyway. The unique thing you're doing to activate Pop is going and kicking a generator within 45 seconds of the hook after you get it, and that is easy. How often do you have Pop available but fail to activate it? Sometimes, but not frequently, right?
This, too, is not addressing whether or not it warrants a nerf, to be clear.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716469#Comment_3716469
Jeezle Pete bud. You'll twist yourself into a Mobius pretzel to defend survivor perks.
The more reasonable interpretation is that I disagree with you, but sure, we'll go with whatever that means.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716459#Comment_3716459
BHVR mainly nerfs perks people complain about. The only reason WOO hasn't been hit yet is because the vast majority of the community views it as an innocent learn the map perk. As I mentioned in my post, it has similar usage to Dead Hard for distance. That's fairly absurd considering DH was the strongest perk in the history of DBD. You don't simply reach that usage rate by being a weak perk. There is a very high correlation between perk usage and perk strength. The top 10 most used perks are typically the strongest perks at the time, as seen by past data:
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1arg1o4/developer_update_stats/
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/171i5hc/see_whats_being_used_before_730_drops/
BHVR actually released data showing that the higher mmr people are, the more they use the strongest perks, proving the correlation between strength and usage. See (x axis is mmr)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JXJ2ZJOKQOUL/perkusagebymmr-survivors-fullscreen.jpg
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/337-developer-update-june-2022
I would definitely contest that there's a particularly strong correlation between strength and pickrate. There is a correlation, but it's generally only moderate, not particularly strong- I'd even point to the current top ten as evidence of this.
Some of the strongest stuff is there, we can see Sprint Burst and Adrenaline for example, but we've also got some stuff that definitely isn't top ten in terms of pure strength. The obvious thing to point to is Self Care, which is definitely not that strong, but it's not the only outlier; perks like Bond and Kindred are good, sure, but they're not top ten good, and neither is WoO.
Now, to be clear, I do know why those perks are run. They're very useful information perks for solo queue, Kindred especially being very nice for tracking the killer. That supports my point, though, which is that there are reasons beyond strength that drive pickrate. Convenience and experience matter too, and WoO is a perk that can be very nice to use because it allows you to not pay too close attention between chases— but almost everything it does can be achieved by just using your eyes between chases, so it's hardly strong because of it.
Pain Resonance actually IS an exceptionally strong perk, it isn't just nice or convenient. Same with old Dead Hard, it was one of the most broken single perks in the game's history. Sometimes, the top stuff is picked because it's the strongest and most effective. Sometimes, the top stuff is picked for other reasons.
Again, I'm not against WoO being nerfed, but it'd be for variety reasons, not balance reasons. Its pickrate is kind of nutty and not great for perk variety.
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I think it's kind of a stretch to say that WoO actually is the most effective survivor perk in the game, especially as I assume BHVR are looking primarily at Pain Res' impact on the trials it's present for.
It's just picked a lot, it's clearly not the actual strongest thing survivors have so I don't see any reason it'd somehow be the most effective instead.
Not that I'm necessarily against it getting nerfed, but specifically comparing it to Pain Res doesn't quite work because PR really is that strong, and WoO isn't.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715354#Comment_3715354
I'm talking about the best of the best
Then perks are not going to save it anyway. When we talk about tournament level, you need perks + playstyle.
Good teams, usually just either perks, killer, or playstyle is enough. Doesn't matter which you choose.you aren't meant to win every game you play, after all.
but I want to have chance to win every game, doesn't matter if I win or not. If you don't use good enough perks, there will be games, where you just lose by default.
they're just too strong, especially when paired and especially when used on stronger killers
Interesting how they were not considered too strong before 3-gen feature…
you did say it was the only option
I said it is only alternative how to get into end game and be confident to win. Not that it is only playstyle possible overall. Survivors have to really annoy me to go for first hook tunneling…
Eruption was veeeeery slightly indirectly nerfed by the new system
You want to tell me, Nowhere to hide, Eruption and Surge is viable combination? I will manage to block gen at 5 gens left with it. How is that not nerfed? If you compare it with current pop / pain res, that is never going to happen.
Just gonna answer the stuff that I have something to say about here—
When you say that you want a chance to win every game, you don't need slowdown for that. You have a reasonable chance to win almost any game as long as you have a solid plan behind your build and as long as you play well. I say almost because there are outliers, but they typically revolve around things that are balance problems in their own right.
When you say that they weren't considered too strong before the 3-gen feature, uh. They were? I don't know where that comes from, they've been this strong and this oppressive for as long as they've had their current numbers (which I believe was patch 6.7.0 but don't quote me).
Finally, that build probably isn't viable specifically because of Eruption. Surge and NtH would be viable as a pair, the absolute worst case scenario, the most you could say here, is that you'd have to not spam NtH, that's about it. Eight events per generator is a ton, especially if you aren't trying to overly defend a specific area - which, again, is part of what the system was designed to stop.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715344#Comment_3715344
Ok, so then maybe you get a hit. That’s one health state, meanwhile they gain distance and if you chase, the other survivors are doing gens. And no I disagree: protecting gens is better than going for a lot of chases, especially if you’re playing anyone other than Nurse. There are too many resources on most maps that draw out the chase.
That’s the core problem with dbd and most asyms that I play: if you want to win, you are playing objective defense. These games are always sold as a scary killer hunting survivors, when in reality objective defense is more important.
No, you go there to chase, because you already have a survivor on the hook and that means someone else goes for the save, dragging three survivors off generators.
Yes, that's not permanent, but that's where skill in chase comes in. Get that down quickly and you can start the cycle again, all while survivors only had a few moments to get any real efficiency going. That's what good killer play looks like, when you're not circumventing skill expression by tunnelling or trying to stall out the game with a 3-gen.
This obviously changes if the survivors aren't on generators to begin with so they can get an insta-save, but that's the situation we're looking at right now.
Also, what you're describing isn't objective defence. Your objective is the survivors and you're leaving most of them to do whatever they want.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715291#Comment_3715291
You still have slowdown perks and other strong perks
Gen blocking perks are not good for late game.
Eruption sucks, gen kicking perks are trash (CoB, overcharge).
So there is like Surge left? Which is M1 only perk.failing so hard you're matched with literally the highest possible skill players around is a little silly,
I don't consider it a fail whenever I get those games. Mainly because I am not lobby shoping whenever I see high prestige, or clear SWF. It's quite normal for me to see good teams. I am not saying it's every other game, but 1 in 4/5 seems realistic.
They're not needed so killers don't have to run them at all.
They are not needed to win most of your games, but there are definetly games where you need it.
They were already being used a ton
But pick rate clearly increased high enough to get hammered.
Then you act like there's going to be no recourse left but to tunnel, when, y'know, there's still… everything else.
I am not saying there is no other way in most games, but I think it's going to increase, again…
Tunneling was already best way to win. This patch makes it even more true.did nerf the other slowdown perks, which it didn't
This one is really funny to me. Explain how gen kicking perks are not nerfed by it?
It's not assuming, it's logical outcome. Lower % perks become worse when you make it limited resource. Not dificult to understand.
I can block gen in three downs with Surge + Eruption. How is that not a nerf?In order:
1: Well, if you're preparing for the lategame, you'd probably be better off bringing endgame perks instead of slowdown. Slowdown kind of inherently is just better at the mid game, when you've had time to get the ball rolling but there's still multiple gens left to repair.
2: I didn't say good teams. Getting good teams is very likely. I'm talking about the best of the best, which is the only time any player would really need slowdown- and if you're not evenly matched with them in terms of skill even slowdown isn't going to help you very much.
3: Sure. You don't need them for most of your games, and the games where they'd make the difference are outliers. That just means they're not needed- you aren't meant to win every game you play, after all.
4: Or, possibly, they're just too strong, especially when paired and especially when used on stronger killers. I don't think this "pickrate means they must get nerfed" thing actually holds water when most of the nerfs we've gotten recently have been to the strongest things available.
5: To be fair, you did say it was the only option. But sure, maybe tunnelling goes up. Tunnelling needs to be fixed anyway, so that only really makes that more apparent.
6: It didn't nerf other slowdown perks because regression events aren't a precious resource. They're limited, sure, but not in a way where you're ever in danger of running out unless you're really aggressively damaging specific generators— which was the thing it was designed to stop.
Though, to be fair, Eruption did suffer a little, I did slightly misspeak. Eruption was veeeeery slightly indirectly nerfed by the new system, that one I'd agree with.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715266#Comment_3715266
It depends how far away I am when I get the down. Even if I’m not on the opposite end of the map, it still takes time to get back, and it’s not like survivors lose much when I do return. Kicking the gen provides laughable regression and allows them to gain distance since I’m locked in animation. They also can undo the regression in a few seconds, which AGAIN, incentivizes me to stay near the gen/area to prevent that from happening.
Why would you kick the gen when the entire reason you're going over there is to start a chase, though?
Gens aren't your objective. Survivors are.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714934#Comment_3714934
You already don't really need slowdown perks unless you're playing at the absolute highest level the main queue can offer you
I will rather be prepared for worst and go easy on survivors if needed than be unprepared when it gets difficult. Good perks allow me to adjust playstyle to survivors.
If I don't have neither killer, or perks to give me some room to breathe, then it comes down to playstyle.
we can always just address those things as well
This is how we got to this point and I called it.
3-gen featured nerfed most slowdown perks except those two. Killers started to use them more and they are going to get nerfed now without any new alternative.
I was confident going into late game with pop, when killers don't have that, only alternative to make it save is play against three survivors…So do that, prepare for the worst. You still have slowdown perks and other strong perks/addons so you can still absolutely prepare for the worst if you want.
I'd say that preparing for the likelihood of the matchmaker failing so hard you're matched with literally the highest possible skill players around is a little silly, but it's up to you.
As for everything else, you're assuming the 3-gen fix did nerf the other slowdown perks, which it didn't. Then you just accept killers using those "instead" when A: They were already being used a ton and B: They're not needed so killers don't have to run them at all.
Then you act like there's going to be no recourse left but to tunnel, when, y'know, there's still… everything else.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715249#Comment_3715249
In this game small numbers matter a great deal. Every second counts. Deja Vu only adds 6% gen speed and is pretty good. 5% off pain res is huge. 10% off pop is crippling. All this stuff is way bigger than you're giving it credit for. There's no guarantee you get your 4 pain res procs or grim embrace tokens regardless.
Sure, I don't disagree with that, but specifically Deadlock and Grim Embrace are definitely going to be fine. Small numbers matter a lot, but GE's nerf was two seconds.
And yeah, you can't guarantee you'd get those four tokens activated, but that's honestly why I just don't use those perks to begin with. That's going to be a factor regardless, they're still going to be very strong perks overall.
None of these perks are supposed to be things you're relying on to replace basekit slowdown from macro play. They're meant to enhance it.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715227#Comment_3715227
Azarov’s is the best example, but this is true on every map. There are always clusters of gens that are easier to defend than the rest of the map.
You occupy the other two survivors for a few seconds until the save happens. The pressure is then gone. This is especially bad if the survivor is staking out the hook and you walk away, and they instantly save. AGAIN, you would have been better off staying near the hook. That would have been two survivors not doing anything. You greatly overestimate how much pressure the killer has following an unhook: they either immediately go to gens or use fast healing perks and then hit the gens. It doesn’t do enough.There's a difference between Azarov's actively punishing you for not 3-genning via terrible layout and other maps just having 3-gens you could defend if you wanted to.
As to everything else, you're missing that every single step of that is a time investment and it's not like you're standing still during it. If you truly can get fast downs, and I'll believe you that you can, then surely the chase you're in is gonna be close to over by the time someone's stopped repairing, run over, saved, got the heal done, and run back to their generator?
This is of course assuming that they were on generators because that's the situation you presented me. If they're not, and you know they're not, of course you'd engage whoever was lurking nearby in a chase. The ideal situation for you is to pull someone off generators to save, which means you would occupy whoever you see not on generators to force it.
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@CaseTrain3322 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715242#Comment_3715242
Assuming one'd like to play all the killers he bought, do you think he could keep up against that with 4 gen regression perks? And so do you honestly think they needed a nerf?
No? But that's obviously not a majority of games and speaks pretty cleanly to how the tools he used - haven't watched the video, just gonna assume it's toolboxes specifically - are in need of a nerf.
And as for whether the perks needed a nerf… sooooort of? They are oppressive and obnoxious to face, especially on top tier killers. I probably would've done it differently, but I do see the thing they're trying to address.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715244#Comment_3715244
You're absolutely right. They're not being taken away. Merely neutered.
Ehhhh. That depends on which one we're looking at, surely.
Like, Pain Res, Deadlock, and Grim Embrace are gonna be fine, those nerfs are almost imperceptible. Pop is gonna suffer, but that's pretty much the only one that isn't still going to be top tier.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714934#Comment_3714934
They do lead to more tunneling and camping. When killers only have one viable option to slow down the game, they're going to take it. When you limit other slowdown like the hemorrhage/mangled nerf or good chase perks like stbfl you're tacitly steering people into forcing a 3v1 scenario because that's the only thing that works. When you make defending generators untenable they're gonna defend hooks.
Do people already do this stuff? Sure. But making it the only viable option is only going to make it more prevalent. Personally I hate that feeling of three gens popping in the first chase and realizing that my only choice is to get this survivor out of the game if I wanna have a chance to win. I want to chase other people and see the stuff they do.
This presumes that killers DO have only one viable option to slow down the game, when the options we're talking about - slowdown perks - aren't even being taken away, let alone the other options that aren't being changed at all.
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@CaseTrain3322 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715101#Comment_3715101
Hens could gen rush and open the gate in 2.44 min in one trial 7 months ago (search on youtube)
Okay?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715161#Comment_3715161
Please tell me how macro-gameplay is making the difference here. I’ll walk through a typical scenario playing the way you describe. Let’s assume we’re on Azarov’s resting place (ez 3 gen map.)
- Down a survivor and hook. You know someone is on a gen on the other side of the map.
- You get to the other survivor (not until they have a significant amount of progress on the gen) and get a quick down.
- Another survivor saves the original survivor on the side of the map that is now completely undefended and gens are gaining progress.
You tell me the smarter play: staying near the original survivor while defending gens on that side, or completely abandoning the place that you know 2 survivors will be, and chasing 1 survivor in a corner of the map.
Again, the way you say to play is possible against a weak survivor group. It’s not against people who pound gens.
You're stacking this situation heavily by putting it on Azarov's, that's a terribly designed map where you win if you 3-gen and lose if you try anything else.
Assuming a different map, hell, any of the other maps in that realm, we can start talking about things. The next thing to address is that you're also stacking the situation by assuming you have to walk all the way to the other end of the map, which may be the case, but it's a pretty bad situation for you no matter what you do.
Assuming we split the difference there and they're just a moderate walk away, yeah, going for them is much better. If you stay, the survivor you know is on generators is just gonna stick on that generator, as will their two friends until one peels away for the save. It is absolutely in your favour to occupy three survivors instead of one because we're assuming we're going against good teams here- the kind that will maximise the value they can get from you camping that hook and not interrupting their repair.
If they're pounding gens, you're gonna want to actually stop them from doing that. You have less leeway to do anything else because they're not goofing around giving you time to do the same.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715180#Comment_3715180
Why is it then that some of the most successful and long running games in history are ones that do just that?
- DotA
- LoL
- Counter strike
- Rainbow Six
All of these things are extremely difficult to play and often find you "having to deal with something that takes thousands of hours to be able to get the skill to counter" and yet they are some of the most popular and long running multiplayer games ever made.
I'm not familiar enough with those games to really comment, but based on what I do know of other games, I'm willing to bet they absolutely make changes aimed at lower skill levels too.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715146#Comment_3715146
Liked your posts in this thread, specifically wanted to comment on one thing:
That's not relevant to your gameplan becausesomegenerator repair is always going to get done, you can't consider that wasted time because it was gonna get spent by the survivors somehow, they're players with agency.I think this is a great point and highlights a big disagreement on what the game is supposed to be. Both sides have different objectives and the goal is not to stop the other side from completing their objective, but to complete yours before they can finish theirs.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715155#Comment_3715155
This is a great example. Would there be anything wrong with that change? Nope!The shack example is a crazy one on the idea that it means 'balance to the top'. It seems like a perfect example of balance for everyone or balance to the middle.
I do think that's a big hangup some people can have, and to be fair it's not like the game goes out of its way to convey otherwise. Your objective progress isn't tied to your opponent's, at least for killer; they can get almost all the way to theirs by finishing all the generators and you'd still absolutely have a shot at winning.
Too many killer players see a completed generator as a loss in some way, I think.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715155#Comment_3715155
the only goal is making money. let's be honest.
and making it fun is how you do that.
making it balanced is how you keep players in after the initial part and they learn how the game works.
fact of the matter is that you should not change what I'm arguing for. never said to ignore anyone.
I'm saying you balance for the top. because that's where you can find balance. you can never balance for the entire playerbase, and it's insane to even try.
were you actually trying to scare me with that? I literaly said to do that…
Well, it sounds like we almost agree, save for saying that balancing for everyone is impossible. It's not, it's just difficult- and it's still necessary.
Players aren't going to have fun if they're facing things that are too strong for them to reasonably deal with outside of just investing thousands of hours into the game. That is relevant to a studio's balancing efforts, it can't be ignored.