jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746102#Comment_3746102
so we agree its mostly gone but she can still do it
It's entirely gone. The problem wasn't a generic "Skull Merchant benefits from 3-genning", both because every killer benefits from 3-genning and because the problem was much more specific than that.
The problem was that she could stall matches out until the server closed. That problem is completely gone.
When it comes to benefiting from 3-genning, I'd argue there's no problem with Skull Merchant specifically now. Any killer can benefit to the amount that she does, and a lot of killers can benefit more. Her just still being able to do it is a bad metric to use, because every killer is able to do it. The question must be, is she any better at other killers when she does it? The answer to that is "no", and also that a few killers are significantly better than her at it.
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I had some thoughts about this myself, I wrote a post about it a little while ago but to recap here—
Make the zombies better in chase, at the cost of being easier to deal with outside of chase. Specifically, make zombies that are in position to hit a survivor do a lunge forward instead of standing completely still, but if they miss that attack they enter a lengthy stumbling animation where they can be knocked down and killed by the survivor.
This would make chase-zombie builds much more reliable, while still being counterable, and without making zombies too oppressive at defending generators passively since survivors can kill them without using a map resource or a perk.
As an added bonus, the zombies' passive information wouldn't be changed, and it'd make addons that take effect when zombies are killed a viable design space.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745820#Comment_3745820
Did they solve the problems Mostly? SM can still place drones on gens yes it wont do anything while your on the gen but as soon as you move your getting marked or clawtrapped
Yes, they did.
She can barely 3-gen at all, and the degree to which her power does anything in that scenario - scanning survivors who run away from gens sometimes to build, eventually, to an injury specifically - is significantly weaker than a lot of other killers' ability to 3-gen.
She used to be able to stall the game until the server closed. Now, she can only get an injury after harassing one survivor away from one generator three times. Is that fun? Not really, but it's not fun when any killer does it. Is it problematic compared to other killers? God no.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746036#Comment_3746036
To me drone placement is common sense is why but it could just be that having knowledge from years of playing this game makes it feel like it's nothing but it's different than what I'm trying to explain because it's the skill itself I'm speaking of not the fact that there's a low skill option or a high skilled option, there's just nothing in my opinion that I can look at skull merchant and say yea that's a skilled play outside of what she does in basic chase as a mindgame, there's nothing that I feel I could compliment on skill with the drones like the chase itself where I can have a "you outplayed me" moment
I mean. I just gave you a list of the things you could look at and call a skilled play.
It is possible for her to have skill expression that you simply don't find compelling, for the record. You don't have to find all skill expression equally interesting and exciting.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746030#Comment_3746030
I think you and I have a different definition of skill expression but that's fine we can agree to disagree on this one, I just see more like huntress for example being a killer with skill expression because her power effectiveness solely lies on your own ability with the hatchet , I might be able to cross map you with one or I might miss from a ft away based off my skill
I don't see how that's different to what I'm describing?
You can go for a cross-map snipe, or, you can just hit survivors in animation lock when they vault something. There's a low-skill option and a high-skill option.
Skill expression, as a concept, doesn't require that you must use the high-skill option and that there not be any low-skill options. You just need to have those high-skill options and those high-skill options have to give higher rewards, both of which apply to Skull Merchant.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745974#Comment_3745974
I mean if I know how to play a m1 killer and I know where to set the drones from basic game knowledge what skill do I have to use aside from basic chase knowledge? Name one skill I have to use in order to get value from my drones, I'm not talking about skill floor or skill ceiling I'm saying skill expression where the player input on the power is taken into account and based on your skill it determining the effectiveness of the drone you just placed, so as far as skill expression you placing a drone isn't expressing your skill level that you have in dbd as a killer, nobody sees the skull merchant place a drone and says "oh man did you see how she put that drone down? " because her power doesn't work off of your skill.
So, right off the bat: Knowing where to set the drones is an element of skill expression. You can't just throw them down wherever and expect them to work, knowing both the right areas on the map and the right position within that area are skill expression and shouldn't be entirely dismissed.
Moving on from that, the biggest thing to point to would be lasertagging, which if you aren't familiar is the process of placing a drone in chase with just the right aim to make sure that the beam tags a survivor as soon as it spawns in, since they always activate pointing straight forward. I'm not going to say it's the most difficult thing in the world, but it is an element of skill expression.
We should also acknowledge manual rotation. There's a timing and positioning game involved there that does take some skill and that you can get better at over time, so that'd count as skill expression to a degree.
There's also hiding drones. Normally, when a drone is placed, there's a circle the survivor can see overlaid on the ground. With the right elevation, that circle is prevented from spawning, which makes the drone harder to spot and can cause survivors to stumble into them unexpectedly. Knowing those spots, finding new ones, and following up on the scan you got would be an element of skill expression.
Finally, this might have a little bit too much overlap with just drone placement, but because of how the drones work it's possible to have the beams pass through tiny gaps in terrain, like Trickster knives. Placing those drones as traps and timing it so you can chase someone into the beam as soon as it passes through the small gap is, again, an element of skill expression.
Is any of this to say that she's the most difficult and nuanced killer in the game? Nah, not really. It's just to say that she does, objectively, have nuance and skill expression in her kit that can't just be waved away as too insignificant to count.
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@Fuzzycube said:
From the patch notes the only useful skill seems like the Carnifex breaking pallets, maybe scouting out gens for the Assassin or Jailer to kick?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745665#Comment_3745665
True but the 3x less patrol time if the killer is within 8m sounds quite harsh.
I'm keeping an eye on that too, but I also don't want to come to firm conclusions before I've tested it.
It does sound like something that'll need to be changed, though.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745829#Comment_3745829
So if the goal of the game developers is not to create a fun experience for their players and like the content and therefore buy it I don't really know what you think is then? Characters having glaring issues can be the reason people don't like them and fixing those issues should lead to a more balance and fun game. Usually it is more important if a game is fun compared to if it is balanced, you can have the most balanced game out there, but if it is not fun then basically nobody will play it.
If the reason that people don't like her is that she has glaring issues, then the rework was a success, because she doesn't have glaring issues anymore.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745958#Comment_3745958
Her power does do those things though, are you personally taking the drone over and scanning that survivor? No it's all done for you all the stuff I mentioned are all stuff the drones do alone is what I mean, I don't mean to come off rude I'm just trying to put it in a way that I'm not misunderstood, her chase knowledge is basic m1 stuff and that's all she really has that the player has personal control over, I mean you could argue drone placements but that's kind of obvious lol nobody is gonna drone the corner of a map with half the radius out of bounds it's common sense, everything that her power itself does has nothing to do with skill
That seems a little bit like playing semantics, to me. Trapper's bear traps and Hag's Phantasm traps also aren't something you personally take over to activate, nor are Pyramid Head's Trails. Using those well still obviously involves skill expression.
But, moving on from that, you're still conflating skill floor with skill ceiling. Sure, you can mostly get away with just throwing drones down wherever and get some basic results against lower skill survivors, but like every other killer with a low skill floor, there are still plenty of things you can learn to do to get better results.
Even if you never HAVE to use them, her kit still has the possibility for you to express your skill if you WANT to. There is no denying that her rework added a fair amount of nuance and skill expression for you to learn if you care to put in the effort- and frankly, you're gonna need to learn a little bit if you want to compete against halfway decent survivors.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745820#Comment_3745820
I'm sorry I can't be reading this right it seems you put skull merchant and the word skill in the same post, she's not by any means strong but to say her power has skill expression is laughable, how exactly is putting a drone that injures on its own considered skill? Is it the skill of knowing console players can't throw pallets on you if you place drones on the edge of them for a free hit? Or the drone radius making you faster and the survivor slower? Basic m1 chase knowledge is really the only skill you need to play her, the power itself has no skill involved.
I mean. Her power doesn't do those things?
Well, I'm sure it messes up console players with overlapping inputs, I don't know that for sure but that seems like a consistent problem.
What I mean is, it doesn't injure on its own, and the drone radius doesn't make you faster + the survivor slower. That's just not an accurate rundown of what her power does. Injuries are based on successful scans, and the drone beams make you faster, as well as slowing survivors who are claw trapped, not the drone's radius.
There's also a difference between "skill expression" and requiring skill. To get bare minimum results, you don't need to put that much skill in, kinda like killers in the vein of Clown or Legion. However - also like those two killers - there are things you CAN learn to do and improve at to get better results, which is what skill expression is.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745820#Comment_3745820
Well the storm ripping your house apart or just your roof of is also a difference, but both suck. And since the goal of such reworks are to make people like it I would say she is and has always been a failure, because for a very small group everyone despises her.
I think it's pretty unfounded to say that the goal is to make people like her, considering the rework was very much an attempt at fixing the problems that were reaching a fever pitch.
People liking her is a nice bonus, and a few people do. Even the vocal set of players yelling about her has shrunk from where it was before. Considering she has no huge glaring issues and just a handful of small ones, I see no reason that number wouldn't keep shrinking over time.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745776#Comment_3745776
What do you base success on in that case? ^^ Because basically everyone hates her xD
My metric for success when it comes to this particular rework is twofold;
- Does she still have the old problems?
- Does she have any substantial new ones that would replace the old ones?
The answer to both of those is 'no'. She doesn't have any of the problems she used to have, even the less impactful ones, and the few problems she does have are mild enough for her to be entirely in line with other killers.
They gave her nuance, skill expression, counterplay, and a clearer mechanical identity than before. Whether people personally like her or not, that's a success from where she was before.
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I certainly hope not, it'd be a shame if they abandoned an almost entirely successful rework.
A couple tweaks would be welcome, though.
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The guards have pretty consistently been intended to flush survivors out and force them into you, as far as I can tell. If you look at Knight's dedicated "use your power as it's intended" achievement, it involves YOU hitting a survivor while a guard is chasing them, which I take to mean that they're meant to be a source of threat that pushes survivors out of position.
This isn't that unusual for DBD, there are a few things that are meant to threaten something which shouldn't ever happen- think of Pig's RBTs, which COULD kill survivors, but are not supposed to do that unless they're ignored. If someone goes to search boxes immediately without doing anything else, they're supposed to guarantee that the RBT won't kill them, and that's what the killer gets out of it too.
Now, that being said, I think it'd be hasty to conclude you can't use the guards for anything else just based on a dev update. Best to actually experiment with the killer on the PTB once it launches, and then draw some conclusions.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744354#Comment_3744354
I have much more fun with Knight, even though the killer is already at the bottom of the "fun" meter
Its fun to bait a pallet drop and force the Knight to send a guard for the break purpose
Its fun to pretend to go to a direction and then change to the other whilst the guard is being sent
Its fun to take the guard chase from your teammate being chased by the Knight
Its fun to rotate the loops and grab the banner
Knights chase music is good, the banner horn sound is fun
What about Skull Merchant?
Boring, boring, boring, boring, I rather die
Fair enough, I suppose. At the end of the day it's subjective, but to me, the beam-dodging and line of sight blocking elements of Merchant are way more fun than the one-note interaction of the guards.
To each their own, I guess!
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744235#Comment_3744235
Ok, boring counterplay
Sure, I can't disprove a subjective opinion. I'm just surprised you'd consider Knight to have fun counterplay considering the only thing you really do is hold W against the guards, or maybe go for a banner-grab.
Is it more about leveraging the AI bugs or something?
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I've thought for a while that it'd be cool to get a special, blue-themed charm for each character that you get to Prestige 100.
Maybe it's the power icon for killers, and a silhouette of them for survivor? Nothing huge, just a nice little bonus to showcase how much attention you've paid to that character, like how you get their perk icons as charms for prestiging them early on.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744240#Comment_3744240
Correct.
Like I said earlier, valid criticisms, all of them.
It's just that the Killer barely even functions. He might be held together by the hair coming out of his helmet.
Now that I'll agree with. Fun factor aside, that killer needs some love.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744235#Comment_3744235
The giant banner is one, considering it gives you Haste and Endurance iirc.
Sure, but that's still just "run away from the guards" when you get down to it. The only difference in your decision making is what direction to run in, which is still kind of generic as counterplay goes, you run away from every killer.
Then again, it is still something, so I'll give it to him.
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Line of sight blocking, crouching, and not greeding loops are all good ways of countering Skull Merchant in chase.
I mostly want to respond because… what is Knight's counterplay in chase? Just run away from the guard…? Abuse a couple weird AI bugs?
I don't even hate Knight, I just think it's kind of silly to highlight his kind of generic counterplay while claiming the killer with more options to choose from doesn't have any at all.
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There are a couple perks on this list that are already very strong and don't need to be buffed.
On the survivor side, I'm looking at Lucky Break, Botany Knowledge, and Light-Footed. These perks are already very good, and definitely don't need buffs. It was already insane that LB was buffed in 6.1.0, lol
Additionally on the survivor side, I don't think reverting Spine Chill is a good idea. That perk was honestly kind of a lot, I'd sooner see it buffed for its new purpose; I made a post about this a while ago, but if we shrunk the number of things it applied to, and gave it a way higher number, it'd be a useful perk for finishing important actions in the killer's face.
I do like your idea for Low Profile. That'd be an interesting direction to take it, as another anti-tunnel perk that would actually meaningfully synergise with existing ones.
On the killer side, I don't see any perks that flat out shouldn't be here, but I do think that a few changes might be misguided. Reverting STBFL doesn't seem like it'd be on the table even if I do kind of agree, so I'd rather push to make it so only damaging Special Attacks remove tokens. That'd bring the perk back in line enough, imo.
I'd also maybe push back against your Blood Echo change, and instead suggest the following: Make it a Scourge Hook perk that applies Exhaustion to everyone, injured or not.
I'd love to see Oppression's cooldown lowered. I like that perk, but it's so hard to justify running it…
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743282#Comment_3743282
No you are not, you are free to leave the game at any point in time if you want to, you only need to be OK with the consequences the game offers, there is no obligation whatsoever to stay in the game. The DC penalty is only supposed to keep you in it, but if you don't want to that is fine, that's why the leave button exists.
Sure, but even in real life you can leave when you don't want to, and all that happens is that you need to deal with the consequences the other people or game itself provide. Nobody can force you to stay and there is nothing morally wrong with not continuing to do something you don't want to do anymore.... Maybe your friends won't invite you anymore, but if you are OK with that you can leave.
Well with that reasoning a DC penalty should not apply when you have a genuine reason, but this does not get checked in any way, it is obviously not possible to check that either, but if the reason for the DC does not get checked then the reason does not matter, all that matters is the frequency, how often does somebody DC, nobody cares for the reason though.
Sure I guess, let's remove 4 % then... Oh wait people can still just run back or stay at hook and just downed and hooked again, all it takes is a bit more time.. Don't get me wrong I do think 4% along with some other rng stuff should removed, but I don't think you will find a way to prevent people from just running into the killer to get out of the game, no matter what you do, that is just the nature of the game...
I'm not sure what you're arguing against here?
My position has pretty much solely been criticising player actions, I haven't really made any pushes for the devs to do something about it.
Also, yes, you are free to leave as long as you face the appropriate consequences for it, which subverting the DC penalty system is avoiding. DC if you want, but it should be a DC.
I don't know what BHVR can do to enforce that. Probably nothing. But I know that I can criticise the players who choose to avoid the system in place they're supposed to use when leaving games.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743262#Comment_3743262
Why should they care about their team? It is 4 seperate 1v1s, and oftentimes people argue that they don't want to risk going down to go for a safe or prioritizing themselves over thir mates, because that is what the game wants them to do... And the devs also pointed out that they don't want to force people to play a certain way... So once again, why exactly should they care about their team? The game for sure does not give them an incentive to do so... Unless you want to come up with general empathy because those are people as well that just want to have fun we would still need to discuss why their fun is more important than the fun of that one player...
When you queue up to play a multiplayer game, and when you leaving that game partway through would ruin the experience for the others, you are under an obligation to not leave partway through unless there's some genuine extenuating circumstance.
This isn't a new or novel position, nor does it just apply to DBD. When you show up to a group activity, you do so with the implied agreement that you'll engage with that group activity.
How responsible you are for the fun of other players is a different topic, but you do have some responsibility to uphold the game actually getting to happen at all in the first place. Obviously if you have to step away for some genuine irl situation, that's different, and it's why DC penalties exist as they do; you won't be affected if you just leave one game every once in a while, but serially leaving and screwing over every other player - teammates and opponent - will accrue a noticeable penalty.
It's a good system, and it being possible to circumvent it is a problem.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743247#Comment_3743247
If a player is being tunneled out or proxy facecamped why shouldnt they the game is not fun for them.
Because their team is still dependent on them?
Don't get me wrong, in those scenarios I wouldn't judge as harshly, but they are still screwing over their team by leaving. I also did specify immediately, though; if you give up just because of the killer being played or because you're the first one chased/downed, and you don't DC to give your team the DC bot, that is what I'm criticising.
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@Kaethela said:
"Your" event? There's four other people in the match with you. Stop being so entitled.
The same could, and should, be said of any player that immediately gives up.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742800#Comment_3742800
I agree with what you are saying about iron will but currently the amount of perks arguably better than sprint burst and Lithe are in the single digits and at that point if you want to keep them at their current strength you would need a system like a point based system (which I don't want to see)
Part of the reason Sprint Burst and Lithe are so good is because they're unrestricted, though. You only have to not run them both at once, the only perk in the game that I can think of that you can't run with them is Iron Will. If there were more perks that forced you to pick, as long as all the perks involved are individually good, you'd see more variety.
If you think those two perks are too strong regardless of any other context, you do need to back that up with some kind of explanation. If it's just about perk variety, though, then restricting loadouts with soft mechanics like Exhaustion is just as valuable as nerfing things.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742750#Comment_3742750
If you don't nerf what's strong you cannot have perk variety without causing major issue
- You either have to buff things to their level which creates but more and more of the game is determined by what you play and have access to rather than how you play as seen in games like Overwatch where in Overwatch 2 their is greater empherisis on swapping character to counter what the other team is using than in overwatch 1
- You nerf the perks at the top level and see what happens (this means creating a real meta shakeup not just a 5% off pain res)
- or you fundamentally change the game in a major way (reworking all maps and format changes, mabye you play 7 gens 5 survivers idk something major that makes a specific type of perk more valuable) and the meta changes maybe you get more variety maybe you get less
That is all that can be done.
I just want major nerfs to what needs it there is no excuse for Sprint burst being one of the best perks in the game since launch or pain res since it came out.
I see.
So, my understanding is that you're not arguing for the perks themselves actually being broken, but rather than them being stronger is a problem for perk variety?
In that case, I can sort of get behind it, but there are a few things being missed here. One of the bigger and more unavoidable ones is that there are already plenty of good perks people just refuse to run, so clearly to some degree people will flock to certain options even if they aren't actually much stronger - you can very clearly see that in Windows being the most run perk in the game despite being pretty mid - but there's also the fact that you do have other options than just flat nerfing.
For instance, when you talk about Exhaustion perks being over-represented, I think there are other options. I think BHVR had a really good thing going when they gave Iron Will and original Made For This the "can't be Exhausted" stipulation despite those perks not being Exhaustion perks. More strong perks with that stipulation - some new, some old and just given this quality - would make Exhaustion perks less desirable without actually making them weaker.
You'd be pushed into choosing whether or not to get the speed boost of an Exhaustion perk, or something more versatile from another perk, because those two tools don't work well together. Restrictions can be just as effective as nerfs, with the added benefit of each individual perk still being as good as before.
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You haven't actually demonstrated why any of these things are broken?
Something being the strongest option doesn't inherently mean it's too strong. There are also smarter ways to solve perk variety issues than just nerfing the top stuff and nothing else, some of the time.
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For the record, remote hook doesn't stop flashlight saves. I've seen multiple happen, and a few have happened to me while I was hammering the button to use remote hook.
I've heard conflicting things about whether or not it prevents DS. If it does, consistently, that's a problem and something they should fix for next time, absolutely.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742118#Comment_3742118
Enjoy your bot matches 😂
You read the part in this thread where I said I haven't been playing Skull Merchant, right?
I don't play her often because people are irrational and act like personal dislike is a good reason to give up against her regularly.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741748#Comment_3741748
the hate for Skull Merchant is irrational
The hate for Skull Merchant is entirely warranted and the fact that SM players will STILL try and brush everyone off as irrational despite being unable to play a normal match is absolutely hilarious.
You can read the things people say about Skull Merchant and see how much of it just isn't true.
I recognise that simply brushing off repeated complaints immediately and without consideration would be a bad thing, and absent context it might look like I'm doing that, but at some point you have to call a spade a spade. Common sentiments aren't automatically correct just because they're common, and people aren't always rational, especially in large groups. At some stage that does just have to be acknowledged.
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@Quizzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741932#Comment_3741932
Oh puhlease. We just had grade reset day of anniversary starting. And this person already has more than enough based on their current bloodpoints to get a couple of cakes very quickly. In fact, killers can only get cakes on their bloodwebs in every level. That's the only offering they get. So if a survivor leaves if they see a pudding, I don't blame them if they leave the match b4 it starts tbh
I gotta say, I can kinda see why people dodge based on the killer being played, but the idea of dodging because there were only four BP offerings instead of five seems extremely petty to me.
You're still getting a ton of BP off a game with four event offerings, and you're getting way less if you give up immediately. None if you outright DC.
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@Musxussu575 said:
OK, I see.
You guys consider the 20s aura as the main effect/purpose and the guaranteed basement unhook as a secondary effect.
I see it as the opposite. The basement effect is the first listed in the perk's description, and thereby appears to be the primary purpose that the perk exists.
My take on it was, if the anti-tunneling bar allows a self-unhook at stage 2 (passive, not a perk), then it would be an effective upgrade for Wicked (is a perk) to do the same.
To be fair, you could also fix Wicked by just swapping which way around the effects are listed, in that case.
The 20s aura reading is more than enough for it to be a solid perk, the self-unhook can very much be a niche extra benefit.
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Not really.
If anything, gens in my killer games go slower than they did earlier on in my DBD career.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741819#Comment_3741819
Yes, and then it would be a different topic and skull merchant would maybe not have been brougth up, but since that is not what happend well…
Well in their mind it is justified for sure don't you think? If they didn't think it is the appropriate thing to do/justified then they would not dc. On top of that, let's say they don't dc… What amount of gameplay do you think is appropriate to force them to participate in? You for sure cannot force people to try to win and as long as they don't go completely afk you don't really have anything to complain/report… So with that in mind playing bad is not a report reason, so if you get a bot instead of the player, is that not a decent equivalent to a real player? ^^
Yes, that is what dc penalties exist for… You see they are kind of a trade off… In the same way a parking ticket is, if you are rich enough… Just that in this case time is money. If you want to park somewhere and you are fine with the ticket, then you just park there and pay the fine for parking where you are not allowed. And when you dc, you somewhat pay with the time you are not able to play the game, seems all fair to me? Those other players can just go next, and you are excluded from matchmaking for a set amount of time. I don't see any issue with that however… Those players can find a new match after ending the current one and maybe find a match where all players want to play… But if it consistantly happens that for some reason people dc 300% as much against trash can merchant than against every other killer in the game, then maybe it is not the issue that players "just dc sometimes because they don't like something" but that the killer itself is the issue, because nobody enjoys it. This argument goes two ways, while you cannot ensure that you get a killer that you enjoy all the time, ideally a killer should not be that unenjoyable, that people regularly dc against it, because they hat it that much.
You're responding to me, not the OP, so what I'm saying is just as important as what OP is saying. I'm saying that it isn't just happening against Merchant.
I don't want to force anyone into participating in any gameplay. If they want to quit, either for silly reasons like the killer they're facing or legitimate ones like needing to step away to take care of IRL responsibilities, that's fine. They just need to face the DC penalty for it, because that's what the DC penalty exists for, and they also need to give their teammates the DC Bot to make sure their game isn't ruined by it.
There are currently no killers (or even really situations) in the game where giving up is universally acceptable just on the basis of what's happening in the match, so there's absolutely no argument for people being able to leave matches without incurring a penalty. Obviously they should give up their bloodpoints and incur the matchmaking lock, because they are just leaving a viable game partway through.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741805#Comment_3741805
Well it seems to be a good enough reason for people to do so doesn't it? And this post would not exist if it was not a problem when playing Skull Merchant ^^ And when that becomes too frequent there are two possible reasons for it... Either people just give up more in general, against every killer or the issue is the killer that got played because they don't like it.
Well people DC against every killer, the difference is just how frequently, that much is a given…
Technically removing the DC penalty would fix that issue, because then there is no reason to waste more time by pointing toward the hook... But that might as well result in overall more dcs...
Well glad to hear ^^ But why do you think you get to judge what is a good reason and what not? ^^ Or why your judgment of that reasons is any way relevant for the people who play it? If you play the killer obviously you don't want people to use that as the reason to DC against it xD That would be like sheep electing the Wolf as president.
Yes it would?
I came in here to say that it's happening to me and I WASN'T playing Skull Merchant. If this thread didn't exist, then I would have made it, and I wouldn't have mentioned Skull Merchant at all. Because it didn't happen to me when I played Skull Merchant, it only happened on other killers.
To that last point, ruining the match of up to four other players because you personally don't like a killer is a bad thing? This isn't a single player game. You're queuing up on the understanding that four other human beings are dependent on your participation to play as well. That's why DC penalties exist, in multiplayer games.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741785#Comment_3741785
OK so what? You cannot force people to play a game they don't want to play? Other games detect you as afk and give you an abandon for that... But dbd matches are not really long enough to justify that. Sure it might ruin other people's fun, but you don't really have a right to have people play the game, like I said before. And I do think there are some cases where this is perfectly fine... Endless 3 Gen games, appointments you have to go to... It is fair to say that you need to take into account the amount of time you left, but sometimes games just take way longer than you could have expected.
Well perhaps if the vast majority of players absolutely despise the killer, change the killer instead of blaming them for not liking it ^^
I don't know, wasn't it a complaint about having to play VS 3 bots because no one wanted to play the match? So I don't think it fits the theme of that ^^ Might be might not be, we would need stats about DC rates against each killer to be sure... If it happens against every killer it would become problematic if frequent, but because it is about skull merchant in this thread I would just take it as another not very subtle hint that maybe the killer needs a total make over because still nobody wants to play against it, at least from the case the OP mentioned. And as long it is only skull merchant I could not care less, the killer was a train wreck in every aspect since its PTB and I have 0 faith that it will end up being liked by something even close to majority, so I just don't care about that killer anymore. Luckily nobody plays it so I don't have to deal with it often either.
Again, I'm not really here to brainstorm how to fix the problem, I'm just here to mention that my experience points to people giving up for more than just this one killer. I even had a killer give up during my play session yesterday.
That being said, it's obviously a problem that you can avoid the penalty for DCing, which is there for a reason. So, it'd be a good idea to try and fix it at some point, somehow.
I literally don't care that you hate Skull Merchant. That's not relevant here. Obviously disliking Merchant isn't a good enough reason to give up, but that's as far as the relevance goes.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741779#Comment_3741779
OK? And it has not happened to me at all for all games I played during the event... We are not speculating about personal experience but about there maybe being a connection between playing skull merchant and survivors dcinf because of it...
Well funny thing, you don't need to justify dcing the game already has a punishment for doing so, if you want to do that you accept the punishment and it is fine. I don't necessarily think dcing is a dick move… there are plenty of good reasons for it, real life issues, not feeling like playing the game in general anymore and many more things, and you even get a bot that helps the team out, unlike when you just die on first hook. You make it sound like dcing in a video game is a federal offense ^^ Sure it sucks for everybody else, but so what? That is something for the game itself to take care of.
For the record, they weren't DCing, they were giving up. Running to a hook and pointing at it, that kind of thing. That is a dick move, because it ruins the match for everyone else.
It's not a federal offence, obviously, but you'd still push back against people trying to justify it, especially when their justification is just "I don't like that killer". It's generally a good thing to make sure the overall atmosphere of a community is not receptive to selfish and disruptive behaviour, even if it is just a game at the end of the day.
This thread has good reason to exist. Ruining up to four other players' ability to enjoy the event because you don't like a killer is, obviously, worth pushing back against. My addition to the thread is that it isn't just happening to the one killer people pretend is an acceptable target for that kind of behaviour, at least not in my experience.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741763#Comment_3741763
Might be, who knows, we are just speculating... But give that people complain about it happening a lot more often compared to how frequent the killer gets played there is probably a bit of a connection at least.
I am not speculating. During the event, I personally have witnessed survivors giving up in roughly half of my games, and I wasn't playing Skull Merchant in any of them. Obviously I'm just one person and so not a good sample size overall, but it's not speculation to say it's happening to me too.
As an aside, no matter what the killer is, giving up entirely just because you don't like a killer is a dick move and isn't justifiable. I don't know if that is what's happening - I'd assume not, I was playing Nemesis and Clown and this doesn't happen to them as often in my experience - but if it is, it's obviously worth calling out as those players being in the wrong.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741748#Comment_3741748
Even if it is irrational? So what? That is not an argument when it comes to the subjective preference to dislike something? Preference is always subjective and it is completely irrelevant whether or not you can base it on facts or just on how you feel about it.
I for example don't only dislike her because of the gameplay, but also because her lore is generic and uninspired at best, her visual design and her mori are uninteresting and uninspired. She was just overall a big disappointment, her concept had potential, but she just turned out to be another put stuff on floor killer.
This is not a thing just happening to people who play Skull Merchant.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741738#Comment_3741738
This is such a fit for the Simpsons meme with the school principle... Is the reason because the vast majority of players absolutely despise this character? No they just unreasonably hate the killer...
Part of the problem is the killer because people despise her, not the player for playing it and not the community for hating it...
I'm not relitigating why the hate for Skull Merchant is irrational, that explanation is out there if you care to find it.
I'm pointing out that this isn't a Skull Merchant problem, at least not for me. I'm also seeing a ton of survivors give up on first hook, and I've only played Merchant once this event.
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Obviously, everyone pointing out that you're playing Skull Merchant is part of the problem.
Anecdotally, though, this has also been happening to me a ton and I've been playing a variety of killers. There's something about the anniversary queue that makes a lot of players - including one killer, even - just flat out give up super early. Very weird behaviour and I don't know what's up with it.
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@AriellesDove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741687#Comment_3741687
it denies sabotage, toolboxes with sabo add ons, flip flop, boil over, breakout, protection hits, ds and saves the killer a lot of time
I don't know, outside of DS I don't really think any of those are a huge problem.
Sure, it's beneficial, but the Invitation effects are supposed to be beneficial. Survivors get some situationally strong ones too, I think it's ultimately fine.
Denying sabotages and the occasional wiggle-out perk seems like a fair benefit when you can still be blinded and stunned out of it.
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What's the issue people have with remote hooking? It doesn't deny saves, so the only real benefit it gives outside of saving a little time is denying sabotages.
Is that the reason people are mad? Outside of that I can't see what could be affecting the average game that badly with remote hooking.
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I love her, I'm gonna miss her so much when this event is over.
Make her playable, BHVR… or give me a cosmetic to turn Sable into her please…
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Its main effect does.
The Deliverance effect is a niche extra. The main draw, the reason you'd run the perk, is the whopping twenty seconds of killer aura reading after both unhooks. I run it myself, it might not be top-tier meta but it's a really solid perk that helps you avoid any opportunistic tunnelling from killers.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740998#Comment_3740998
Pretty sure every statistics would say otherwise though, unless they "evaluated" with just subjective thinking
I guess you could argue a high pickrate is inherently bad because of perk variety, but in terms of actual effect/strength there'd be no reason to look to Windows for changes.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740992#Comment_3740992
The funny part is if we were evaluating each things first, WoO would've been nerfed a long time ago
Probably ignored or allowed because it's ultimately a newbie perk
Not really? I feel like you'd evaluate the thing having the largest effect on the game first, and that's absolutely slowdown, at least out of these two options.
Or, y'know, they could've evaluated WoO and decided it's not in need of changing. Either works.
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I mean, the logic's pretty sound. Slowdown perks are very unrestricted, the stronger ones give very noticeable rewards, and they stack together in problematic ways. Windows of Opportunity might be comparably easy to use, but the rewards are minuscule compared to stacked slowdown perks.
Also, even if Windows were anywhere close to that strong, things don't all have to be changed according to the same logic in the exact same patch. It can be done over time, with each one evaluated first.
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I feel like an issue with this argument is that it invokes the new player experience while assuming that new player has the same goals and desires as a player with a thousand hours plus.
What I mean by this is that it always focuses on how long it'd take a brand new player to unlock everything on every character, but even setting aside that new players don't have every character… why would a new player want to do that? A new player is primarily going to focus on the perks they have, and maybe branch out into one or two extra that they think sound interesting.
From that perspective, the grind has been alleviated exponentially. You still have to prestige whatever character has the perks you're eyeing once, which is entirely fair since progression goals are a healthy part of most games, but actually doing that is much quicker than before between BP itself going further and you getting a lot more of it. You can also partially skip the grind by playing the character themselves while you're levelling, at least for survivor, giving you access to those perks straight away.
The grind is only appreciable if you want everything on everyone, and that's entirely opt-in. It's also still not that insurmountable, it's just a long-term goal, which is fine.