jesterkind
jesterkind
About
- Username
- jesterkind
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,633
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753994#Comment_3753994
Can other people rummage the same chest? Could an elodie with this perk come by the same chest and grab another syringe from it?
As it stands it seems like it's eating inner healing's lunch. Interact with object, get healed. But better. It's it's 3 chests vs five totems that might be better though.
I think that'd make sense, right? Each player would get their own instance of the perk to use, otherwise it'd be too up to chance.
As to Inner Healing, there are enough differences to make them sidegrades, in my opinion. Inner Healing has more synergies and doesn't steal your item slot, whereas Pharmacy here would be harder to synergise with since chests aren't generally worth it and would require use of your item slot which makes trying for chest builds even harder. That, on top of three chests versus five totems.
Inner Healing still has the "not everyone can run it and get full value" issue, but that's separate from this discussion, I think.
-
@MrT1412 said:
This allows you to get multiple syringes in a match. That's hilariously overpowered. Just make it a rummage that guarantees a medkit and increases your medkit self heal speed by a small amount.
At the cost of requiring you to find, open, and rummage chests, of which there are always a limited number.
If you have time to do all of that without being interrupted, then you'd have had time to use any other self heal too. I could see more than one being OP, so I could see it being downgraded to a one-use perk, but I do strongly believe that the only way to make Pharmacy even slightly worth running these days is for it to give you a heal that both isn't a medkit, and is stronger than a medkit.
Otherwise, why not just bring the item with some actual supporting perks?
-
@Archael said:
With such item, perk should be 1 time use, or should reduce chest opening time by 40% (maybe 30% or something between).
Alternate version could be to increase self heal speed by medkits by 18%.
I think once per chest is still fairly balanced. That's three uses without burning an offering, and it'll require running around to go spend time opening and then rummaging through each one.
It's a whole perk slot so it should be meaningfully impactful, and it's a self heal perk so it needs to be limited in speed and/or in number of uses- this design is limited in both.
-
@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753967#Comment_3753967
and this is where you are wrong in my opinion: as far as i know, the best thing that actually a killer can do is to kill the 1st survivor as soon as possible, even when DS and BT are in the match… a 3vs1 is a lot more manageable than a 4vs1 and this is a fact… if you say that only camping and tunneling are punished, then explain me why i didn't see a single killer using perks like sloppy butcher and nurse calling or full aura reading/gen patrolling builds.
So, you're right that the best thing a killer can do is kill the first survivor as soon as possible… but that's only viable because of how easy tunnelling is. The more they weaken tunnelling, the more that easy win will seem less accessible, and the more killers will lean into playing legitimately. Weakening tunnelling is a good thing, because it's currently unbalanced enough that trying to get the first person out ASAP seems very doable, because it is very doable.
As to your other question, people will run what they perceive to be the strongest option, and in this case that's slowdown. It actually has nothing to do with killer nerfs at all, people just value slowdown a lot more than they value anti-heal, information perks, or chase perks.
If you're asking me if they SHOULD run those perks, my answer is absolutely yes. A balanced build with a clear intent is stronger than stacking four independent slowdowns, or three slowdowns and a token info perk. People just aren't doing that because they think more slowdown will give them proportionately higher chances at winning, often while also trying to tunnel the first person out so they aren't even using their perks properly. Then they complain about gen speeds, as if they aren't completely failing to actually contest them in any way…
TL;DR, having all those tools and options available doesn't mean people are going to choose to use them, even if they should.
-
Based on what they've said and done in the past, I feel confident saying the devs understand why camping and tunnelling used to happen so frequently - and still happens, in the case of tunnelling. They happened/happen because they're easier than actually trying.
In the current state of the game, gen times are basically not a problem if you're playing actively and spreading your pressure (by which I mean, pushing multiple survivors to react to you at once, NOT patrolling generators passively). The only real exception to this is toolboxes, but even then everyone in the trial has to have one, that they've specced for repair, and probably some supporting perks, before it becomes a huge problem.
There have been some nerfs to killer things, yes, but there's also been quite a few buffs. Killer basekits get improved semi-regularly, perks get buffed semi-regularly, and then there have also been some changes to things like maps and survivor perks that further improve the killer experience.
I've never understood this idea of "devs kill every strategy killers have", I don't understand what it's even referring to. It's just camping and tunnelling that get hit with adjustments, and deservedly so. You still have the entire breadth of killer gameplay and strategy available to you.
-
@Lit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753736#Comment_3753736
Well yeah, everything is an opinion until it's back up with facts/statics (which can sometimes be misconstrued) - but I think democratically the numbers speak for themselves.
The win rate is because people don't like playing against her - and my assumption is games are easier for killers because of this.
For me, which is a matter of opinion, doesn't really need to be said but here we are… whats exciting about dropping a drone, slowing a survivor and hitting them, and if you don't M1 hit them, they're slowed whilst the killer has haste, they get injured.
Urgh. It actually makes me sick to think this was ok'ed by a group of people.The exciting part comes from actually using the power to its fullest, I'd argue. It comes from playing against survivors that know how to counter your power, leading to you both trying to outplay each other by playing within the same clear rules of the power, same as most other killers.
Then on the other side, the people who enjoy playing against Merchant presumably enjoy countering her power.
Fair enough if the gameplay isn't for you on either side, but we don't gain anything from pretending there isn't meaningful gameplay to enjoy.
-
This is a perfectly fine mindset to have, as long as you don't get mad at stock answers. If they don't have anything already to share, you're just gonna get a "no plans but we'd like to" or a "soon tm".
-
@Dwight_Fairfield said:
I sincerely hope they don't waste time answering questions about cosmetics, and lore and other fluff topics like that.
I hope they prioritize the meaty questions about balance changes, killer updates and reworks etc.
If they do that, they're gonna end up giving us stock answers about "soon tm" and "no plans currently but we'd like to" and things in that vein.
The "fluff" topics you're talking about are, in my opinion, way better suited to this format because at least they're questions the devs can actually answer.
-
If you're willing to accept something a little more on the gimmick side that still does some work, I've got a fun build for any killer that's very threatening close up - so Bubba, Billy, it works really well on Plague because everyone's injured, killers like that.
The build is: Lethal Pursuer | Gearhead | Furtive Chase | Nemesis
The idea is to chase your Obsession as early as possible, and utilise the stealth to ambush someone, then targeting whoever gets the unhook because they're the new Obsession - alongside Nemesis giving you at least a shot at creating an Obsession out of whoever you're chasing, and making unhookers Oblivious so you can try to ambush them, too.
Lethal and Gearhead aim to give you important info to ambush people on generators while you're stealthy, as well as being a really potent counter to Distortion since you chew through two tokens at once and are starving them of opportunity to rebuild tokens since you're stealthy a lot.
On Plague, running the frankly broken Black Incense addon allows her constant wallhacks on vulnerable survivors while she herself is Undetectable. Very potent.
-
@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752782#Comment_3752782
The difference here is L4D those are just normal people put into a situation against their will. Laura knowingly throws herself in these situations and is a badass action hero who can backflip pistol shoot her way out of damn near anything😭
I feel like you're not considering WHICH Lara Croft we're getting, here, because the version we're getting very much didn't throw herself into her respective situation, nor is she a particularly bombastic action star. In fact, to my recollection, the closest Lara gets to really being an empowered action hero is when she gets a grenade launcher and pushes her opponents onto the back foot for a short section.
We're not getting the action hero version of Lara, we're getting the survival horror version. Or, at least, the version that's very close to a survival horror protagonist.
-
This has been a weirdly huge problem during the anniversary especially, I really wish people would quit it. It's been so hard to get good games as either role because of this…
-
@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752266#Comment_3752266
Correction I actually hate the action in DBD which is why when more action is brought in IE Tomb Raider it pushes me further away from this game hence why I moved onto TCM mostly. Finnesse alone has brought more action into the game than anything in RE just with that (poorly animated at that) animation. At least flashbang isn't an actual flashbang, blast mine is a trap, and Wesker is a survival horror gaming icon where all of his actual action elements have been essentially removed.
And yes I do because nothing shown takes away from the fact Tomb Raider isn't horror its an action game. Something having minor horror connections again doesn't make it a horror game like??? Why are you guys so desperate to just suck up anything BHVR puts out its unironically proving my point further that DBD is going down the same path as fortnite where its players will just eat up any forcefully shoved in collab they can.
Mario has bones is Mario horror eligible? Spongebob has the hash slinging slasher might as well throw in a spongebob chapter since I guess tiny itty bitty horror connections make something officially part of the horror genre and eligible for DBDSurely you wouldn't go so far as to say that Tomb Raider is AS far away from horror as Mario and Spongebob, though?
The game they're picking from here is pretty heavily steeped in horror inspiration and imagery. Lara spends a fair amount of time in that game fighting for survival against an overwhelming supernatural foe, routinely stumbling across horrifying setpieces and confronting death at every turn. It's basically in the same vein as Left 4 Dead; horror imagery and inspiration while still ultimately being an action game rather than a true horror game.
Bill has been in the game for a long time, so that baseline has been pretty clearly established for a long while. It's not unfitting for DBD, and not a "forcefully shoved in collab", as long as there's horror imagery and inspiration in the IP.
That's not to say DBD hasn't been testing the boundaries- the Dungeons and Dragons collab was an interesting look into how DBD would adapt something that wholly isn't horror by teasing out the elements of horror it does have. I think there's a lot of room for DBD being allowed to do that, and to test what fits in the game… but Tomb Raider isn't that. Tomb Raider is just a pretty straightforwardly sensible addition that just fits without too much effort.
-
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3751800#Comment_3751800
Them killing Mangled like that is basically sending a message that killers splitting pressure is a bad thing. For noobs, yeah, because with experienced players the strategy was never an issue as they could each hold their own when the killer came. So what's the alternative to splitting damage? Tunneling, which everyone is also against, and has been nerfed because of base BT and all manner of anti-tunnel perks. So killer has no good options right now.
I'm guessing the reason they nerfed Prove Thyself is because it was overkill with SWF and useless in solo. In solo for some reason, survivors are allergic to working on gens together while that perk is in play. SWF right now though can still use Prove Thyself because of the communication. If we look at it when compared to Deja Vu, the model gen speed perk in my eyes, it's a bit better.
I mean, no, you can absolutely still split pressure, and it's still the best thing to do. Splitting pressure is about pushing multiple survivors to act at once, it's not about slowing down a specific action. Killer's in a good spot, and even still has some good anti-heal, Mangled is just harder to use for no reason.
As for Prove Thyself, I disagree, SWF also didn't get much use out of it unless used very sparingly. PT is only useful - and was only useful prior to its nerf - when used on the last generator. Before then, you're spending extra time on generators unnecessarily by grouping up, and making it easier for the killer to interrupt you too.
-
Mangled going on a timer, for sure. Completely out of nowhere with no real impetus in terms of current game balance. Haemorrhage needed something, but what we got didn't exactly help much and didn't require changing Mangled at the same time. Very confusing, very unnecessary.
Also, on the other side of things, Prove Thyself's nerf from 15% to 10%. That perk was already actively a detriment unless used very sparingly, that nerf is one of the very few times it seems like the devs did just change something because of people complaining.
-
Definitely agreeing with the majority here that Legion doesn't need a rework. I'd even go so far as to say there's not much they even really need in the realm of buffs, Legion is pretty decent at the moment.
As an aside, it's a pet peeve of mine when people refer to Legion as "he". There's four of them, show some respect to the other three…
-
I think it's kind of a stretch to say Deathslinger needs a full killer update in the vein of the ones we've been getting recently. He could stand to get a few small buffs, for sure, but he's not in that dire of a spot other than that. I'd sooner look to Myers instead of Deathslinger, considering he's now entirely the most outdated killer in the game with some truly problematic elements that swing in both directions from too strong to too weak.
For Freddy, I believe we already know he's on the radar, though I would be suspect of Old Freddy coming back. Stuff like the slowdown can't come back, and we're in a state of the game with a lot more counters to aura reading, so after those two things are effectively removed/neutered, what's even left? I'd rather they move forward with his current design, myself, there's a good base there for how to make him more evocative and interesting.
Also, obligatory mention that Skull Merchant already had a Freddy-tier rework and that rework already made her much more skill-expressive. She'll likely get more changes at some point, but the specific stuff you're calling out already happened.
-
As others have pointed out, the physical reaction animation is a stun, not a blind. The perk does both, and Lightborn protects against the blind part only.
Think of it like the concussive force of the thing blowing up in your face. Even with supernatural sunglasses protecting you from any vision effects, you're still gonna flinch at something like that, right?
-
I'd agree with this. I'm a big enjoyer of Maps from time to time, but man, they can be so obnoxious to build into with very specific addon requirements before they'll actually function - and even then they don't do everything you might want. Did you know it's impossible to make Maps track chests outside of perks like Detective's Hunch? Maddening.
I have a duo of posts about how I'd change both items I can dredge up if there's interest, but to simplify what I think should happen, it's generally in line with the idea that each item is supposed to have a clear goal, and a clear set of perk analogues. To me, Maps track static objectives (with their perk analogues being things like Visionary, Small Game, Plunderer's Instinct, etc) and Keys track players (with their perk analogues being things like Bond, Empathy, Dark Sense, Kindred, etc).
So, standardise them and make the baseline of what these items do more consistent, so they don't range from "outright useless" to "genuinely really strong".
Also, take killer power stuff off the Red Twine, it's overkill.
-
@cruelb said:
No terror radius in drones is the issue with SM. Remove that and I would bet people wouldn't DC or kill themselves on hook.
For the record, that's not how her stealth works. It's not stealth inside the drones' radius anymore, it's eight seconds of stealth after deploying a drone.
-
Yes, I've gone out of my way to check out licenses that I've seen in DBD.
For the most part, BHVR do a really good job integrating their licenses. Some of them, like Myers, are borderline genius. A few flubs like Freddy aside, they do a good job here overall.
-
@MalekithHatesSnow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3750485#Comment_3750485
IMO the problem isn't Lara but the fact that we could've gotten so many actual (I know Lara fights zombies and ######### but the games are not horror centric) characters from horror there's so much characters that don't really have a corresponding killer that we COULD have gotten i mean off the top of my head I think Isaac Clarke would've been perfect
I feel like Isaac Clarke would test the tone of DBD more than Lara would, but even setting that aside, getting one character now doesn't mean we can't get other characters later.
Lara's a good fit for DBD that a lot of people are fans of, there's really no reason not to add her because some more traditional horror characters could be added first. Just add them too.
-
I gotta say, I really don't understand why Tomb Raider is supposedly over the line when other licenses we've had haven't been.
Lara, as a character, has just as much claim to be a DBD survivor as someone like Bill Overbeck or Leon Kennedy. She has WAY more of a claim than the Rainbow Six characters or the Attack on Titan skins, but to be fair, those were cosmetics, that is a slightly different thing.
Tomb Raider has plenty of horror to work with, and I don't see the substantial difference between that and Left 4 Dead or later Resident Evil titles. Yeah, Tomb Raider also has action setpieces, but for most of the newer trilogy - especially the one they're pulling most from - Lara spends most of her time skulking around, repairing old technology to try and stay alive, and being haunted by horrifying circumstances brought about at least partially by supernatural entities. It's really not hard to translate that into DBD's core gameplay loop, and I don't think the fact that there's combat and action setpieces should be an immediately disqualifying element.
It's not like she's a cartoon character, or from some zany comedy. Tomb Raider's flirted with horror a lot, this makes total sense.
-
Yes, in my opinion Lara fits.
To me, DBD chapters are adaptations, and as adaptations they're able to get a little transformative. While I do think the game they're pulling from has enough to justify her inclusion anyway, I think a more constructive question would be: Would Lara Croft seem out of place in a more traditional survival horror game? Is it possible, through clever adaptation, to make Tomb Raider into horror?
I would argue that the answer is yes. There's a lot to work with, and all you really need to do is take away Lara's arsenal of weapons to force her into more defensive, skulking, survivor-like behaviour- something DBD does by default.
-
@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748703#Comment_3748703
The reason I suggest those is because I have no problems with skull merchant in a direct chase, it's when she plops down her entire collection of drones in a 3 gen and just patrols that and never leaves it. You just cannot play the game, at all. They won't chase, they'll boot you off gens at every opportunity. The most effective thing is walk around the opposite side of the map until your teammates die and take hatch.
I suggest not being able to retrieve hacked drones to counter the fact that they'd get hacked, and in 8 or less seconds skull merchant is there, most likely has hit you out of stealth, and already recalled and replaced the drone. Your point on "You want her to recall the drone" means nothing, because they'll only recall it when replacing it.
Oh, I see.
I mean, why even hack drones at that point? They don't affect you while you're repairing, so at MOST you're at risk of a single scan when Merchant approaches to scare you away. At that point, she's getting progress so slowly that the gens being repaired should absolutely outstrip it. Merchant can't effectively 3-gen anymore for that reason, she just isn't threatening until she's built up three scans on someone and that takes enough time for gens to get serious progress, even assuming that every time someone runs away they're guaranteed to be scanned, which they aren't.
Merchant is basically a glorified M1 killer in 3-gen scenarios. She has a bit of stealth and a tiny bit of intermittent speed, that's kind of it. That's why my response was geared towards making the disable state last longer, because she already basically doesn't get anything substantial out of 3-genning, I legitimately assumed you meant other scenarios.
Like, setting aside anything else about her, the rework absolutely fixed 3-genning, especially in combination with the regression events limit.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748657#Comment_3748657
My issue is that your first change would make looping in drone range easier, but this would make it kinda more difficult again. So I don't see how it is positive effect for survivors.
I believe it would either do nothing or make it worse for survivor.
If laser would start stationary, then looping around the car etc is more difficult than if it is moving. Simply because it's going to be very easy for me to put it in survivor's way.
It would only make it more difficult again at short loops with low cover, which are the loops that Merchant and other killers with ranged threats tend to excel at anyway. They're the loops you'd want to avoid even if the drone's already there because of how favourable they are for her.
Two seconds might be too long, for the reason you lay out, but the beams starting stationary for a brief duration wouldn't be detrimental at a lot of loops because you still have to run around about half the loop before you'd get to it. You'd watch Merchant, see the beams flash up, and have time to decide whether leaving is a good idea without the beams being an immediate threat to you. Even just one second would be enough time for this to work.
Generally, I feel like any loop where you could actually force the survivor to run into it, you'd get the same effect from moving beams. They'd need to be close enough for crouching to lose them too much distance, and at that point, you get the scan or an M1 either way.
-
@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748212#Comment_3748212
I think it's a balance issue.
Whenever I play against her, I try, I really do. But it feels like trying to counter her (disabling drones, for instance) always end up in you getting hit. With her stealth and speed, and how she can just saturate an area with drones, see when one's disabled, whack you for even daring and instantly replacing it, her counter isn't a counter, it's a death trap.
I propose:
- Skull merchant cannot see from a distance if a drone is hacked, she has to see, in person, if it's in a hacked state
- Skull merchant cannot recall hacked drones. Alternatively, destroy the drone and refund it to skull merchant after 45 seconds
This should at least ease the fact that hacking a drone is high risk, and less than 0 reward. Hacking a drone ensures either 45 seconds of that area being open or reduction of Skull Merchant's drones for a time, letting a survivor hack a drone and, even if they take chase from it, gives other survivors breathing room instead of the often instantly replaced drone causing favor for the skull merchant.
Not that I necessarily disagree with these changes, but you are kind of implying that the only way to counter her is to hack her drones, which kind of ignores all the in-chase counterplay her drones have.
This is kind of a problem with the broader discourse about Skull Merchant and why saying "something must be done" isn't quite as simple as it sounds. I'm not saying you, specifically, don't know how to counter her drones in chase, but a lot of people don't and they also act like she doesn't HAVE any counters outside of hacking drones. That makes their feedback particularly difficult to act on, as you can imagine.
Although for the record, I think just increasing the time before a drone turns on would do it. You want her to recall the drone, because it means the drone has to be replaced and can't affect anyone in the meantime, so having it be useless for longer would push killers into doing that a little harder.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748630#Comment_3748630
Basically any window loop is going to make this easier. I put drone aiming through window and run to side where is survivor so they have to either crouch through laser which is going to slow them down, or take a tag.
Right now it's very difficult to get this unless you do it against window vault.
You'd have a tight window of time to do that in, though, especially if the delay ends up being shorter than two seconds.
It wouldn't work on like, a TL wall, because those are too long. It'd have to be a loop with a window that's short enough for you to get around and hit the survivor within three-ish seconds (to account for them crouching) and I feel like most loops where that's the case, the survivor wouldn't play it with a drone up anyways.
Remember, they can still choose to run away, they're not forced to stay in the loop just because they have more time to ascertain the situation. Also remember that "the beams don't move" is already an effect you can get, and the people who care about Merchant enough to have any opinion on her addons tend to consider it pretty trash in my experience.
-
@VomitMommy said:
Drones deployed while in chase with a survivor start in Scouting Mode
I am fine with this. That should make it easier for survivors to avoid lasers in chase.
Drones deployed while in chase (or possibly just by default) have a two second delay before starting to rotate.
Doesn't this make it kinda easier to go for laser tag? I don't need to care about speed of laser in any was just place it where I will get survivor in next second.
Seems like it doesn't affect effectiveness, but makes it easier instead.
If I force survivor to run through it, they can't really avoid it with fast crouch. So either waste lot of time or take it.
This change is not good in my opinion...
Not necessarily. You still have to account for survivors juking it, you still have to have the aim and positioning, the only thing that really changes is that you're less likely to be off by a millimetre because the beam moved.
Slightly easier, but not to the point where it becomes a problem. I mean, hell, you can currently get this effect for lasertagging specifically by running the Low Power Mode addon, so we can hypothetically test that out right now.
…Assuming either of us can get that many games as Merchant, anyways.
As to the last point about forcing survivors to run through it, that depends on the loop, like I said. With space and/or LoS blocking, you'd have time to get around before it starts moving again. At least, I believe that would be true, it'd have to be tested on a PTB and a different number could be reached if necessary. Or maybe it just wouldn't work, we can't really say for sure.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748508#Comment_3748508
Perhaps instead of blaming people from moving on from an unpleasant experience, we should instead attempt to discover why the experience is so unpleasant to so many people.
What happens after you've done that and all the provided reasonings are unsound and inaccurate, though?
Not to say people should be banned for throwing, that's still a bad idea.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748237#Comment_3748237
Unfortunately you don't need EVERYONE to hate her to ruin a match. 1 survivor running to a hook and pointing is all it takes to ruin the match.
Sure, but if that happens one in every hundred matches (against SM, so rarer than that in reality), we wouldn't have as much of a problem. There are players who do that against any killer, and it sucks but it's not as systemic of a problem as we have with Merchant.
-
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748353#Comment_3748353
Well, considering you are using a SM profile picture I dont expect a different opinion lol
I could swap profile pictures and still be right. I'd still have arguments to support my statements, too.
-
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748340#Comment_3748340
Yes, I am the problem
Not a broken a** unfun killer with no skill expression
I mean, yeah?
You just admitted you're intentionally tanking matches because you don't like a killer. Even if we assumed Skull Merchant has no skill expression - provably false as a statement - that'd just mean you're both a problem. Factoring in that you are wrong about that statement, that leaves just you being the problem.
-
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748330#Comment_3748330
Yes, and I will still contribute to that until they either remove her from the game or completely change her powers
Thank you
As long as you acknowledge you're the problem and nothing else, I guess.
-
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748203#Comment_3748203
If someone saves me against SM, I will just run around the map doing totems and chests, and play badly if I get chased
But I guess people like to play games that are already impossible to win by holding people who want to go next hostage
It's only impossible to win because you're giving up, though, so the fault lays with you in that scenario.
-
@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748227#Comment_3748227
I don't think anyone can change people's perception, even content creators. Community here is a power role here and if they just hate the killer to the point that they completely gives up in match, then the devs must look into the issue and decide what to do
Well, to be fair, not everyone hates her, and I don't believe everyone who does is unreachable. There are people who actually listen when it's explained why common complaints aren't accurate, after all.
Still, like I said, I agree but I think calling for a rework is shortsighted. There's no reason to assume it'd work this time.
-
@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748220#Comment_3748220
I bet devs have a lot of ideas about that. I just hope they will do something about it
They did already, clearly that tactic didn't work.
I agree with you that this is a problem, for the record, I just don't know what the devs could do to fix it and it's pretty provable that reworking her into an entirely fixed state won't work because it didn't work.
The only way forward I can see barring more irrational opinions that swing in the other direction would be like, community outreach that tries to change people's perception, and that call comes from inside the house. That's on us to do, not the devs.
-
@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3748212#Comment_3748212
I don't know, maybe a complete rework? This is not something that must be ignored
Right, but what would that rework look like?
You could say that they could radically alter the way her power functions to promote skill expression and counterplay in chase, as well as entirely removing passive cheese strategies and obnoxious unintended interactions… but they did that already, that's what her current power is.
What would stop everyone from hating and DCing on the next power rework too?
-
To be fair, how would you propose fixing it?
As someone who'd like to play SM, I totally agree, but I don't know how you fix it when all the reasons people give for doing it aren't accurate. If the complaint isn't based in the killer's mechanics or balance, you can't fix it by changing the mechanics or balance.
I'd love to see this change, I just don't see how beyond maybe waiting for the fire to die down or something.
-
@Nos37 said:
I was excited to hear about The Lich's Mage Hand ability. Finally! A way to counter pallet saves!
Then I heard Scott Jund say it only works if you have the brown addon that extends Mage Hand's duration by 0.5 seconds. No biggie. I'll just always use the addon; it's cheap and available.
Then I use Mage Hand WITH the addon, spam the pick-up button so that I can pick the survivors up as soon as possible, and the other survivor STILL got the pallet stun!
Bad enough I have to play a specific killer with a specific addon, but now I have to also dedicate a perk slot to Fire Up just to counter a survivor performing the simple act of standing next to a pallet when they go down (using an emote to prevent them from being knocked out of the pallet's hitbox too!). They don't need to play a specific survivor, use an item, waste a perk slot (unless they decide to bring Plot Twist, but it's not necessary).
"Just break the pallet and chasse them again…"
Okay, so NO hooking ANY survivors until all 20 to 30 pallets on the map are broken. Got it.
Not to downplay the annoyance of that setup, but surely the actual answer is to just chase the person lurking for the save?
If they're so determined to be slugged, just slug them and chase the person trying to rescue them.
-
@Rogue11 said:
inspired by true events
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EYQRGWNF0GTF/skull-merchant.jpg
I mean, would that have been any different against any other killer?
-
@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747557#Comment_3747557
So your claim is that her counter play is avoid the beams which can be dropped instantly and when ever? Even during a chase? That isn't counter play that's just running in a direction. I can hop in a locker when nurse teleports to me or artist hits me with some crows. I can dodge a billys charge. Many other killers have many unique things you can do. SM does not. And the scans are fundamentally a issue as some one across the map can negatively effect your chase by giving her haste how is that fair or even make sense? She's highly problematic and as it's always ignored the player base just leaves or suicides upon seeing her. That isn't healthy for the game and it's not just children complaining or lashing out it happens enough that it is a systematic issue as it's so wide spread claiming it's just people on the forums uniting to troll isn't it. Honestly I think SM should be removed and replaced with a different kit and model and name to give this sad excuse of a killer a new start
Yes?
The beams operate on line of sight and don't scan you when you're crouching or standing still. They also spawn in a very predictable position - they're always facing directly forward from where Skull Merchant was facing when the drone was placed - and they rotate in the same direction, at the same speed, every time.
You can absolutely dodge the beams. It isn't just running away, it's specifically a timing-and-positioning based dodging game, just like a bunch of other killers.
People don't "unite to troll". People refuse to understand how she works, and act like there's nothing to be done because her power is uncounterable and uninteractive when that's provably untrue.
-
@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747543#Comment_3747543
So basically Chucky and Myers come to mind as for move speed could be more I don't have all numbers off the top of my head. Using the excuse that other trap killers are bad so you can't compare them is dismissing a good argument other trap killers exist so a base line exists as well if SM over preforms that baseline that is a problem.
I would be interested in what your idea for counter play is for SM that is reliable for more the extending chase by holding W into the edge of map.. stacks can't be removed giving her potentially permanent haste unless you take a hit which isn't counter play. In my opinion counter player implies it isn't beneficial to the killer like disabling trappers traps or hags marks with a flash light.
The issue is SM gets to much value out of to little you can argue SM is a worse killer then Nurse for example but that brand new player loading into a match as nurse for the first time is going to hate it opposed to loading into that same first match as SM I think it's easy for people to think a "bandwagon" of hate is happening here and not being on it helps us feel we are not one of the crowd or that we think the masses are stupid so they must be wrong in some capacity this isn't the case here.. yes people blow the issues out of proportion but the wagon started for a reason SM is a problem not game breaking but enough that people just refuse to play vs her as they value there time and expect a game should be fun.
Myers moves at normal speed outside of tier 1, and tier 1 is also really weak, by design. He's not supposed to be operating at the normal baseline in tier 1, he's supposed to be operating at below the baseline.
It's actually not dismissing anything, if our baseline is considered to be the weakest killer in the game then performing above that baseline is not indicative of a problem. We WANT killers to perform above the baseline set by Trapper and Freddy, because they're very bad killers. We want those killers to be performing above the place they currently are, even.
When it comes to your comments about her counterplay, we have another misconception… I think? You say that stacks can't be removed, giving her "potentially permanent Haste", but I'm not sure what that means? She doesn't get Haste just for someone having a scan, she gets Haste for someone being on her radar, and that happens for 12 seconds after someone's scanned, it's not permanent.
Moving on, we'll talk about her actual counterplay. The problem is that you're thinking about her counterplay being something you do AFTER you get scanned, but her counterplay is in avoiding that scan to begin with. Beams need line of sight - though it is pretty lenient and can go through small gaps - and they don't scan you if you're crouching or standing still. That's her counterplay, you play around the beams and you avoid being scanned in the first place. It's very doable, especially if the Merchant isn't really trying very hard.
To your final paragraph, you're right that the bandwagon started for a reason. The issue is, that reason doesn't exist anymore. It started because of her original design allowing for extremely stalled out matches that could potentially go until the server force-closes. She can't do that anymore. They fixed her, and people are still acting like she's broken.
-
@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747531#Comment_3747531
What's wrong in this thread? She's gives more status effects then any killers traps used easier then hag trapper or Freddy, she has 115% speed despite reliable stealth unlike other stealthy killers. I don't see anything flat out wrong with most people's complaints if you wouldn't mind sharing why you think everyone here is wrong I would be interested in seeing why a video was posted in this thread with even more complaints
Well, for starters, even you're kind of drifting into some questionable territory. Why highlight her 115% speed specifically when comparing her to other stealth killers? They're all 115% to my recollection.
As for some of the other stuff- saying that she gives more status effects than any other killer traps isn't wrong, but it's important to remember that two of the three trap killers we have suck. Trapper is not a good benchmark for balance, so to say her traps do more is kind of irrelevant. Of course they do, Trapper sucks. The same goes for Freddy, and while Hag is a closer comparison, it's worth remembering that Hag's traps are much more guaranteed. You can crouch them like Merchant's drones, but if you trigger them, it's a much more directly-threatening effect than a single Merchant scan. Merchant has to build up to her best case scenario, other trap killers get theirs on a single trap activation, and it's harder to see a Hag trap than it is a Merchant beam.
I'm not going to go through everything in this thread, but to stick to the thing I responded to - as I said in that comment, that video is just flat out wrong. It pretends that Merchant has no counterplay in chase at all- and very specifically brings up killers that have weak or inaccessible counterplay as a contrast, so it's not hyperbole, it's just wrong.
The things people say about Merchant are in similar lines. Saying she has no counterplay, she has no skill expression, she has more effects than other killers… these things just aren't true. That's not to say there's no conversation to be had about her balance, but the starting point for a lot of people's arguments is just wildly off base.
-
@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747518#Comment_3747518
Why are SM mains so desperate to not be hated? Serious question I never see nurse or blight mains begging people to like that or to claim they are not that hard to play vs? It's always a SM main who create theses threads basically shilling that every killer under the moon is worse then SM it's actually pretty funny
To actually explain that for you, it isn't that "SM mains" (which I'm not, for the record, I play her occasionally) don't want to be hated, it's that the things people say about SM are often just flat out not true.
It's not shilling or begging or propagandising, it's just disagreeing with statements that are - at best - extremely debatable.
Say what you will about the threads about Nurse or Blight or whoever, they usually aren't as flat out wrong as SM threads are.
-
@Salinero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3693905#Comment_3693905
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOliDIQxQlE
I'll just leave here for all those people saying she's fine. How about we give all other killers free haste, free slowdown and all the other status effects she can give BASEKIT? Yeah, not gonna happen. She can INSTANTLY place traps, doesn't need to rearm them and can recall them. How about trapper and other setup killers get this too? yeah game would definitely not be fun anymore. She needs a change.
I actually watched that video the other day, because I see it pop up around here in discussions like these every now and again.
I expected a lot more. This video's core assertion, the statement that everything else rests on, is that Skull Merchant has no counterplay in chase. Not that her counterplay isn't accessible or potent enough - they even highlight some killers they feel have inadequate counterplay but that said counterplay still exists, unlike (to them) with Skull Merchant - but that she doesn't have any at all outside of holding W. This is a statement they repeat multiple times, making it very clear that they mean it literally, not as hyperbole.
I don't mean too much shade to this youtuber in particular, but that's an immediately disqualifying statement. If you're not willing to acknowledge basic facts about the killer, like that their counterplay exists, you surely can't expect to be taken seriously in the debate.
-
I have a few builds I cycle through, but the main two are:
Strength in Shadows / Botany Knowledge / Deja Vu / Kindred
Good build for self healing and healing others, with a little bit of info. Either DV or Kindred can be swapped out for Overcome, which synergises well with the healing perks, or something like Resilience for a little across-the-board improvement. You can also swap Deja Vu specifically for Empathy, and make yourself an altruism machine.
Overzealous / Circle of Healing / Deja Vu / Flex perk
Usually with this I bring a map and the Red Twine, which makes the core loop this: Set up CoH to activate Overzealous, apply Overzealous speed boost to the 3-gen with Deja Vu, keep CoH up for healing my teammates and having them heal each other. It's surprisingly consistent, especially if you throw in some generally decent perks as the flex pick. Kindred, Resilience, Alert, an Exhaustion, or something like Detective's Hunch if you want your map slot free or just know the totem spots better than me, all work quite well here.
-
@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747434#Comment_3747434
But we also know that just because something is maddening at times a) doesn't mean it has to go
It reminds me of someone here telling their story of a month without DbD, playing other multiplayer games. They found out that a game making you mad and miserable is not something that generally happens in games, it's just a unique feature of DbD. Other games try to be fun, DbD is the only one that purposefully tries to enrage the players. So yeah, if something in a game is maddening, it's a good enough reason to remove or rework it, unless it's DbD.
I have no idea how anyone can claim that frustration is unique to DBD among multiplayer games. All of them have things that can be maddening and frustrating- I've been getting into fighting games, and let me tell you, some of the stuff that happens in those can be really irritating.
I think the person you're referring to might've stumbled backwards into realising they're just burnt out on DBD and that's why other games felt less frustrating.
-
Wraith can do this too, it's pretty neat- the very beginning of the cloak animation looks very similar to the beginning of an M1 animation, good for baiting DH.
Not really super good for anything else, but it's still a neat gimmick.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746310#Comment_3746310
Hey, trapper has knelt down, hold w. Hey, hag knelt down, hold W. Hey skull woman lifted a drone into the air, hold w.
Like that's not an inherently bad thing. I find every killer I just mentioned fun to play vs. The salient question is whether gutting his antiloop in exchange for maybe longer chases and swapping guards is enough of a compensatory buff. You know, the guards that don't actually do anything without help from the knight. That vanish when you try to do stuff with them now. As a fun thought experiment do you actually see that as a buff?
The problem existing on other killers doesn't stop it from being a problem on Knight, and it's also worse on Knight because he's not limited like those killers are + the guards are a bigger threat than those powers.
However, I agree. The salient question is whether he's being compensated properly, not trying to argue that the main problem being fixed is itself inherently bad. You'll notice that was my point too.
-
To the point about the new 10m restriction on patrol paths - the thing you're describing where Knight spawns a guard in a tile and survivors leave to hold W to another one is the entire thing they're trying to fix.
It's not something that harms Knight in his capacity to use his power as intended, it's a nerf to an extremely obnoxious cheese strategy. I have my issues with a few of these changes, especially the change regarding hunt time shortening if the Knight is close by, but that particular change is a good one specifically because it's aiming to address the loop-zoning issue that a few characters share and Knight is the uncontested king of.
That's not to say I'm of the opinion these changes adequately buff him in compensation, or to say that I don't think that - I'm agnostic until I can test it. Just that Knight has historically had a big problem: Flattening gameplay down to "he's knelt down, hold W, rinse and repeat". This update is pretty clearly attempting to both address that problem and encourage Knight to use his guards in alternate ways, it's not a bad update because it successfully addresses the problem.