jesterkind
jesterkind
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I don't think there's a particularly huge issue with gen efficiency at the moment, no. I do think that toolboxes are unbalanced, but that is kind of its own thing, not related to gen efficiency.
You're asking for some advice in the original post, so I figure I might as well post some of my own. Generator efficiency on the survivor side is something that your minute-to-minute goal as a killer is to interrupt: Basic, bread-and-butter good killer gameplay involves spreading pressure by occupying multiple survivors at once. The most straightforward and broadly applicable example I can give is to imagine the following:
One survivor is on a hook, you're chasing another survivor, and a third survivor peels off their generator to go get the save. For the duration of this situation, you only have one survivor on generators, bringing their overall efficiency down by a whopping 75%. It doesn't last very long, but it's repeatable and effective. If you manage to get that down before someone actually gets the save, you're in an even better position.
This general concept can be expanded out in a multitude of ways. Some killers - quite a few, these days - have side objectives in their power that can occupy even that fourth survivor with good play; Pig, for example, can have everyone off gens if she's good at keeping up chase pressure, because the fourth survivor who would be on gens might be searching a box instead.
It doesn't require those side objectives, though. If you're playing a stealth killer (or you're gambling a little on a stealth build), you can force survivors to heal for fear of being oneshot out of nowhere, as another example. You can run a full-hex build to keep survivors looking for totems, though that has the risk of backfiring if they find totems before you get the ball rolling. You can combine both, if you feel nasty!
I'll break this down into a few bullet points so I'll stop being so wordy:
- Your job is to occupy multiple survivors and damage their gen efficiency
- You do this by forcing them to act on something that isn't generators- for example, saves, healing, totems, side objectives in a power, etc
- You also need to learn the win conditions and strengths of your killer, and what risks they can afford to take; Blight and Billy have the mobility to spend searching areas or crossing the map, some other killers don't
- To that end, I wouldn't recommend stacking slowdown, and would heavily recommend information. Getting into chases quicker AND knowing which gens are being worked on + what survivors are doing is crucial for playing the macro game effectively
- Chase perks that mitigate certain resources can be useful too, if your chases are too long
Killers, currently, have a HUGE toolbox to rummage around in and a lot of viable methods of getting work done. It's just a case of figuring out what works for you, what perks complement your strengths and shore up your weaknesses, and what your killer is capable of, all while remembering that generator efficiency is something you are meant to disrupt, not exclusively your perks.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759807#Comment_3759807
Since when is healing yourself infinetely and therefore making injures worthless a healthy way to extend matches?
The problem on old coh wasn't the speed of the healing but the fact you could selfheal infinitely. No one had to leave gens because everyone could selfheal at any point, so injures didn't create any preassure anymore.
For the record, while I heavily disagree with OP's assessment of this perk, the problem with old CoH was ABSOLUTELY the speed, not the infinite self healing.
Survivors currently have a source of infinite self healing, and it's borderline throwing to try and use it because of how bad it is. Speed matters, and the situation with old Circle of Healing was that the whole team got to heal themselves faster than someone else healing them as long as they met the exceptionally accessible criteria of "also bring a medkit". That was the problem, the already too strong medkits being supercharged by CoH, which on its own was still pretty alright.
That is what made injuries not matter. If everyone was actually spending 22 seconds in a boon healing, after the time spent setting it up and the time spent running to it, your injuries would've still been a (fairly weak but noticeable) form of pressure because that forced survivors off generators for longer. However, everyone spent between 8 and 12 seconds to delete the pressure of your injury, which is both almost certainly less time than you invested to get the injury and barely any time to set up a snowball.
This was also the problem with old medkits, which didn't require CoH to delete pressure from injuries. The two together were just a complete nightmare.
Current CoH is pretty good. It's exceptional in SWF, and pretty alright in solo queue. It doesn't need the self healing back, especially if that self healing could be made faster than someone else healing you, which was the old problem. While that's less likely now that medkits are properly balanced, there's still no reason to buff CoH in that way because it's already pretty good.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759329#Comment_3759329
Loading screen makes me wary because it's still free DC territory. It'd be a great time to show it because everyone's watching and nobody can do anything else, but I expect players are still going to pull the plug on a match seeing No Mither teammates or stuff like Left Behind + Distortion or chest builds the same way they DC on bad map offerings. And that's even more obnoxious than when they lobby dodge.
While I agree re: you can lead a Dwight to heals but you can't make him crouch, I do observe a significant difference in readiness when I have We'll Make It versus when I'm running Botany + Desperate Measures. Both give me speed heals, but when "I have speed heals" is on my teammate's screen, suddenly players start crouching under hook and always let me heal them first, where when they're not, people want to take me across the map into a corner before I can touch them, will run away to use their medkits or self-care, and it's way more common they want to commit to a half-done gen instead of being healed (if it's 75+%, yeah, let's commit.)
And some people don't care either way, but I think there's a difference between 'not curious about information but will act if they know it' and 'completely indifferent to teammate perks, they're doing their own thing.' Though I feel that sudden no-confidence vote in the UI…
True enough, true enough. Free-DC reactions are still a concern, though I do wonder how many players actually know about that.
I think ultimately there's still room to show icons for some perks even in a world where we can see our teammate's perks, for the reasons you're describing. I think it being accessible in the pause menu and adding/keeping icons for directly relevant perks like We'll Make It and Botany might be the best middle ground?
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759315#Comment_3759315
What if you could see them when you're next to the survivor? I agree lobby is a bad idea, but pause screen, while a good venue for sharing this info and I'd like to add that too, has the problem of not communicating information unless the other players are actively looking for it. The icon approach is nice because it shoves the perk in your teammate's face. Take We'll Make It. If teammates had to pause the game to see it, the effect it has on their behavior would be lessened.
Seeing perks when next to the survivor isn't perfect, but it conveys information that needs to be conveyed when two survivors are interacting with each other - healing, whether they want to be, and who goes first, repairing a gen together (you're already more likely to do this if you see Prove) and who should leave to go for the hook, etc.
And perks like Deliverance or Camaraderie could be broadcast globally whenever relevant, similar to Empathic Connection or Kindred.
A plausible idea, but I worry it'd look kind of goofy and out of place. BHVR have generally pretty good UI in this game (barring… notable exceptions, very recently) so I'm sure they could make it work, but I'd be wary.
Ultimately, I think a big thing to remember in conversations like this is that even obvious information won't be used by players that aren't actively interested in using it, and most of the players who are would be inclined to check their teammate's perks if that option were available.
Though, it being more readily apparent would be better, which is why I think the loading screen would be another good venue for it. Lots of real estate to use with a tweak to the presentation, it's passively shown to the player with no input on their part, and it's not like they have anything else to pay attention to at that point. Only downside would be that players with good machines would have less time to see it, lol.
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Rather than showing an icon for everything, legitimately it'd be better if you could see your teammate's perks.
Not in the lobby, that'd just cause dodging, but in the 'pause' screen mid-match, and possibly in the loading screen too.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758618#Comment_3758618
I don't get what the point of nerfing it in the first place
There really wasn’t one. It wasn’t an issue to begin with.
It bothers me that this has become a pretty popular outlook on 6.1.0. It makes me feel like I'm the only one who actually remembers before that patch, and the very clear reasons it happened.
Prior to 6.1.0, a large number of players (not completely new ones, but hardly only small-percentage top tier players either) would be seeing four of the exact same six perks, almost every game, on almost every player, on either side. Not only was this observable, it was also something people were getting sick of. From places like the forums, all the way up to content creator videos on the topic. People had asked BHVR to fix the stale meta for literal years.
We can defend or criticise any individual change made in that patch, but to act like it was an anomaly that came out of nowhere for no reason is really misleading.
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I just use the game's win condition of 3/4 kills, personally.
Though, I also don't really tie my satisfaction with a match to whether I won, so I don't really need a personalised win condition. I've had 1k matches that I felt super satisfied with, and 4ks that weren't particularly fun or satisfying.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757698#Comment_3757698
Diminished Player/Dev Trust from not keeping to their word. To be fair that is pretty bad now from what I see, so it wouldn't change it meaningfully, but it would just add another layer of mistrust to be peeled back. Mechanically I honestly think it is fine as is, but it is small enough I think it also is a great token nerf to allow for fixing a greater flaw alongside it (or in the future). The playerbase is often too tribal, and a nerf/buff to one side is considered unfair, without a corresponding nerf/buff for the opposite side. Since this was considered a buff to counter 3-gens, reverting the buff to justify the Regression limit fits in the childish 'I got mine' mentality.
In specific, I weigh the gen speeds against the old 80s timer (which I had no problem winning as Killer with). I don't think any buff to gen speeds that fails to reach the equivalent timer is too powerful. Old Deja Vu saved at max, 3s from 80s (60s of 5% faster, or 63 gen seconds in 60 real time seconds, for a total of 77 real time seconds for 1 gen). That means new Deja Vu has to save more than 13 gen seconds for me to think it is too powerful. That would require a ~17% boost for a normal 90s gen to even match the 'real' gen speed with old Deja Vu taking 77 real time seconds.
I just think it is a safe 'sacrificial lamb' counter-balance nerf target.
Hmm, I think that's a fair enough reasoning.
I think a similar effect would be achieved from the devs just confirming outright that they think the perk is fine and intend to keep it as it is, but you're right about that element being something the devs need to consider, sadly.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757636#Comment_3757636
The buff was explicitly made because 3 genning became a problem (due to a bunch of issues combined), and once a solution would be found (regression limit), it was planned to be reverted. It is better to tear off the bandaid now, rather than like the DS change where it became core to the game's ability to function properly at 5s. We still haven't properly healed (because no good anti-tunnel exists atm, although the Babysitter buff seems like an honest effort).
The original patch note mentioning the change -
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/392-7-0-0-end-transmission
There were also forum posts by devs around that time frame (that might have been on the 7.0 PTB), but it is too difficult and annoying to find dev posts for me to seek them out (if they even still exist since the PTB posts are deleted/archived nowhere I can find them).
Right, but let's imagine for a moment that the devs decide they're not changing Deja Vu anymore. Is there any problem that arises because of this hypothetical decision?
It's not actually integral to the game's function like Decisive Strike, since it doesn't actually help against intentional 3-genning and also the basekit mechanic designed to fix that was a lot more effective than the anti-tunnel mechanic. The only problem that could exist, therefore, is if it's too strong as-is after the 3-gen mechanic was integrated.
Would you say that it is too strong? If so, how?
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I see this suggestion crop up a lot, which has given me a lot of time to think about it. I've never liked it, and I think I can elucidate why a bit better these days. As many of my explanations do, I'm fully aware, it comes down to two broad reasons. We'll go over the more simple one first just to get it out of the way, then move on to the one I have more to say about afterwards.
Reason 1: It doesn't apply equally across all killers.
While this might seem like a sensible and straightforward buff for killers like Freddy, Legion, or Clown, it'd be obvious overkill for killers like Nurse, Blight, or even lesser-but-still-top-tier killers like Plague or Wesker. This wouldn't be a simple buff to implement, it'd be a radical overhaul of many different things at once, which already makes it not all that appealing from anyone's perspective, really.
There's also the small element of the way it pushes you to play - or, rather, the way it pushes you not to play. Trapper, Hag, Myers, and Ghostface all have their most thematically evocative method of playing (setting up extensively, and stalking unaware survivors, respectively) made either much much harder, or outright impossible, with Corrupt in play. That's not to say it can't still be a good idea from a strategic standpoint to bring the perk, but I think players should still have the choice to play those killers that way.
Reason 2: It's aiming to fix a misunderstood problem.
The typical reason given for why Corrupt Intervention as a basekit addition would be a good idea revolves around early gen speed being too fast, or gen speeds in general being a problem. To be blunt, a huge percentage of that is just an unironic skill issue. Gen speeds aren't, currently, a huge problem.
…Except for specific issues.
When there actually is an issue with gen speeds, especially early on, it stems almost entirely from two sources: Toolboxes, and survivors being all spread out individually when they spawn. It would be more impactful and healthy for the game to address those two sources themselves, rather than playing whack-a-mole with symptoms and also getting collateral damage in the form of every single other match that anyone ever plays, lol.
In short: Macro gameplay is poorly understood and needs some real effort put into community guides sometime, and separately, the only problems with gen speeds can be fixed directly instead of slapping on a band-aid with Corrupt Intervention.
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@mizark3 said:
It should simply have the buff for anti-3gen reverted. Arguably they could have the repair speed boost be timed, and keep the aura reveal as permanent as a partial nerf instead.
Genuine question: Why? What's the problem trying to be solved here?
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Keys and Maps (the item) getting overhauls.
I love both dearly but they're so awkward and finicky to use, as well as being stupidly addon reliant. I'd love to see them made stronger + more consistent.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757146#Comment_3757146
Okay, so from now on, whenever the devs say "temporary" or "band-aid" it means permanent until very problematic. Got it. 👍️
A better way to interpret it is that temporary measures can become permanent if they're good additions to the game that don't cause any problems.
Also, not "very" problematic. Problematic at all.
Also also, the devs still might change it, I'm saying it doesn't need to be changed. I'm not a dev.
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@Nos37 said:
It's helping players out with preventing 3-gens pretty nicely.
This change would not affect that.
Yeah, but there's also no problem or reason to implement this change either, that's what the full sentence there was about.
Genuinely, at this stage, why bother changing Deja Vu? It's healthy and non-problematic in its current state, so there's really no cause to tinker with it.
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I'd question the necessity of a nerf like this, personally.
I know the devs said that the buff would be a temporary measure, but having sat with it for a long while now, I honestly think it could very easily be kept. It's not causing any problems, and it's helping players out with preventing 3-gens pretty nicely.
If they did need to nerf it for some reason, this would be a good way of doing it, but I don't think that need is there at the moment.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756788#Comment_3756788
Kinda sucks with how many new perks are trash too...
Well, that's the issue when you release more bad perks than good / decent ones.
I have no idea how Undone got live. They have statistics on missed skill checks, so it had to be clear it's going to be useless.
I don't think that many are actually trash, but either way, it'd be a wasted opportunity to focus on those instead of stuff that's needed changes for years.
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I think my only real hope is that they try to avoid new perks in this update, so nothing from the last few chapters. That's the last few chapters as of right now, too, since we're probably getting at least one between now and then.
A lot of older perks could use the love more. Not only are there not all that many newer perks that really need the attention, but it'd also be a wasted opportunity to focus on the ones that do.
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@SoGo said:
I have some thoughts.
So, this perk would be great, but it would be good to limit it to, lets say... twice per trial. You can rummage twice per trial and get a Andrenaline Injector.
I'm inclined to think that tying it only to how many chests are on the map would be healthier than only having it activate twice, because that would encourage off-meta picks like Coin offerings and perks like Plunderer's Instinct or Detective's Hunch as well as pushing survivors to spend much more time running around the map and setting up their heals.
Travel time + opening time + rummaging time + five ish seconds for the animation (depending on balance) would absolutely add up if it's done more than once. It's good for the killer if survivors are spending time doing something other than generators, and it's doubly good if what they're doing involves traversing the whole map looking for static objects. More time and opportunity to ambush them.
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While I do think some gen regression/slowdown perks are weak, I'd be extremely wary of buffing them in the current state of the game. Any one of these perks you make desirable to the average player, they're just going to be run alongside Pain Res, and that's not exactly a good outcome for the game's health.
Until such time as slowdown perks can't all be taken at once, they all necessarily have to be not too strong to stop them getting out of hand when they're stacked.
As an aside, Call of Brine probably shouldn't be considered a regression perk anymore. It's always been a hybrid, and the regression half of can't actually be good or it's very unhealthy, so it should just be considered an information perk and buffed according to that imo.
THWACK also isn't a regression perk so I'm not sure why it's on this list? I'd like to see it buffed but not like this, just remove the hook requirement and give it a cooldown. Also… we do not need Forever Legion/Plague builds back, Thana needs a rework, not a revert.
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@Krazzik said:
With how DBD is, killers need either good mobility or good anti-loop, or a mixture of both to be able to consistently do well.
Look at all the S-tier and A-tier killers, do any of them NOT have either of those things?
To be fair, the evidence provided here - the S and A tiers all have these qualities - could just as easily mean that's what killers need in order to be considered top tier.
You'd also have to prove that nothing below the top tiers can consistently do well in order for that to really mean much for the core assertion here, and I think that's a harder sell. Not that content creators are the be-all-end-all, but there are plenty out there doing perfectly well with all manner of killers, even Trapper.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756120#Comment_3756120
People DID NOT rate CoH on a 21 second heal, because their heals with it were FASTER than 21 seconds. You can even go back in this forum's history and find people arguing that CoH is fine and doesn't need a nerf because that 21 second number is only alright - all of whom were obviously missing the problem that existed back then, because they were only considering CoH in a vacuum.
yes they did. in fact i would argue that faster healing wasn't reason why COH fell off as a perk. it was its ability self-care that was removed from the perk that made unpopular. Just look at nightlight stats. Self-care is 5.74% usage rate and Strength from the shadow is 3.74%. COH ranks as like 5th best healing perk if we just discount the number and just look at ordering. player is clearly prioritizing self-healing effect over anything else. We'll make it is the one exception that i do not want to go into large details. IF coh had self-heal component, player would likely still be using COH to this day.
What you're describing with Pharmacy is the worst case scenario of old CoH and a scenario in which that perk was just "fine". It's a viable niche strat for hyper coordinated SWFs, but it's outclassed by actually bringing altruistic heal perks instead of bending Pharmacy into being one. It's fine in a vacuum, but a waste of time compared to what you could be doing.
As stand alone perk with no items, pharmacy really isn't that bad. a portable self-heal that is moderate quick is decent. It is just that it is better to bring your own med-kit and spend 1 altruistic perk slot than it is to use this perk. that is why i said this perk really only shines in swf because you can equip 1 of this perk and than give your entire team self-care by opening the chests. this leaves room for your other teammate not need healing perks and perhaps choose other perks like anti-tunnel or generator progression choices.
As for why swf don't use this? well…. there is no reason to use it because…. 4 syringe+4 adrenaline is better than pharmacy. also using offering like that makes killer play more sweaty…. due to well.. suspect swf. med-kit in lobby? a lot less suspicious. probably just watch out for franklins.
We're drifting away from the main point here, so I'll bring us back on topic with my main argument, which I'll simplify as much as possible.
It's this: In the current state of the game, self-healing is reigned in with one of two downsides. It's either slow (IE, slower than the default 16 seconds), or it requires some kind of prep time + resource in exchange for the heal itself being faster. Medkits, for example, are balanced by being slow. Inner Strength, the closest comparison to Pharmacy, is an eight second heal balanced by requiring interactions with limited totems first.
Pharmacy, right now, is a slow heal that also requires prep time and a resource. That needs to change if we ever want it to be considered as a reasonable alternative to its closest comparisons. It's the worst of both worlds currently.
CoH isn't actually that relevant here outside of being a slight historical oddity (that still actually obeyed these rules in practice) because we're not in that state of the game anymore. Things are different now, and we should be looking to treat Pharmacy according to the current norms, not the old ones.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756101#Comment_3756101
the prep time is less then blessing a totem. chests take 10 seconds to open. pharmacy grants 80% boost to opening chests. This is 5.5 second opening time. if there 10 chests in the map, it is far more accessible to find chest nearby than it is to find a totem.
In order for the perk to be viable after the prep time, it MUST provide a heal that's faster than options which don't require prep time, IE, medkits. The only exception to this was old Circle of Healing, which had its own unique approach + was broken because it provided WAY faster heals anyway.
The self-healing time for 50% COH was 21.33 seconds. it wasn't that much different then 24 second med-kit. this is what. 5.5 second chesting open and 24 second healing. I mean the total interaction time is marginally faster.
The absence of chests spawns in the trial is likely big component for pharmacy low popularity. You have to use an offering every game to utilize the perk in most efficient way possible and soloq 1. cannot coordinate this in the current iteration and 2. most don't see expense as worthwhile.
As an aside, I don't want it to be only useful or viable for SWFs, I want it to be useful for solo queue as well.
Most perk that end up being good for soloq end up being too strong overall. Background player at 200% haste was great example of that. any time that BVHR has tried buff perks that are valid for soloq, they've ended up reverts changes or sometimes deleting the perk out of existence. It is just an obvious pattern that this point.
Tackling those both in order:
1: Okay, so, we've already covered that what made CoH so good was that it was FASTER than the 21 ish second timer due to it being stacked with other tools. People DID NOT rate CoH on a 21 second heal, because their heals with it were FASTER than 21 seconds. You can even go back in this forum's history and find people arguing that CoH is fine and doesn't need a nerf because that 21 second number is only alright - all of whom were obviously missing the problem that existed back then, because they were only considering CoH in a vacuum.
If it were used on its own, CoH was just "decent". The same way that what you're describing with Pharmacy would, in theory, be "decent". It wasn't strong, it was just usable. People made it strong by pairing it with their medkits and with other tools, and that is what made it so broken it needed to be nerfed.
What you're describing with Pharmacy is the worst case scenario of old CoH and a scenario in which that perk was just "fine". It's a viable niche strat for hyper coordinated SWFs, but it's outclassed by actually bringing altruistic heal perks instead of bending Pharmacy into being one. It's fine in a vacuum, but a waste of time compared to what you could be doing.
It's also still unhealthy for it to only be halfway decent in a coordinated four man, especially when even those players don't really want to bring it due to it being heavily outclassed by other options. That's still a good enough reason to rework it.
2: This just flat out isn't true. There are plenty of perks that are good for solo queue and that aren't too strong; even setting aside perks like Kindred and Bond that SWF generally don't want to use because of redundancy, there's also just… the usual suite of innocuous meta perks. Deja Vu, Resilience, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Distortion, Off The Record…
Then adding in the off-meta good perks like Lucky Break, Strength in Shadows, Wicked, Alert, Breakdown, Iron Will, Champion of Light, Quick & Quiet, Built to Last…
None of those perks require a SWF, they're all perfectly valid in solo queue. This pattern doesn't exist, the only way you could think that any perk which ends up being good for solo queue gets nerfed is if your bar for "good" is, y'know, broken stuff like old Background Player, or old Made For This + Hope, or old Dead Hard.
Things get nerfed if they're too strong overall, that isn't connected to whether they're good for solo queue or not.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756092#Comment_3756092
this is more of a problem of not showing your allies load outs and not having auras for items on the floor. Once again aura reading wrapped into a perk.
Plundered instinct is a perk that show aura of items left on the floor. in a swf, when someone drops a med-kit or any item, a player can notify other players to pick-up the item. if you open all chest, survivor might not know you have the perk and might not check chests unless they're near a chest and just happen to see med-kit.
I don't think you should be trying to balance around instant heals. Adrenaline and red syringes are only needed/potencial useful healing perk for a swf. otherwise stacking second chances or gen-rush perks are better choices. there is not much to change. it is probably better to just nerf Red syringe and Adrenaline instant heal instead as these are over-performing mechanics.
I strongly feel that no players, SWF or solo queue, would use Pharmacy this way if all that changes is that they can see the aura. It's still a waste of their time compared to almost any other healing option, altruistic or solo.
For the record, this isn't an instant heal, it's a slightly faster syringe that requires both opening a chest and rummaging it before you can even do the animation to start the timer. It's not instant like Adrenaline, and it's also not instant to start like a syringe.
Pharmacy has prep time: You need to find and open chests, and I'm pitching adding rummaging to that too.
In order for the perk to be viable after the prep time, it MUST provide a heal that's faster than options which don't require prep time, IE, medkits. The only exception to this was old Circle of Healing, which had its own unique approach + was broken because it provided WAY faster heals anyway.
The only two ways to make Pharmacy's current design halfway appealing is to either have it buff medkits directly (a terrible idea for a wealth of reasons) or to make it provide a heal that isn't tied to a medkit + is faster than a medkit to counteract the extra time investment. I lean towards the latter, obviously.
As an aside, I don't want it to be only useful or viable for SWFs, I want it to be useful for solo queue as well.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754773#Comment_3754773
On god they are not. Only viable ones are S tier, which means Nurse and Blight.
Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "viable"?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756041#Comment_3756041
However, if that WERE accurate… does it become okay all of a sudden? Isn't it still a problem for solo queue players to not be able to make use out of perks like this? Isn't it a problem for a perk to be innocuous in solo queue but broken in SWF?
that is been case for dbd perks since beginning. a great example is like flip+power struggle where dying on a pallet to let a survivor recover and threatening pallet save makes perk much better but in soloq. nobody going to be doing that actively or play around your perks.
Unbreakable is another perk that actively benefits from that play-style.
This just another one of those perks that falls under the SWF category to gain benefits. the thing is, while swf can use a lot more perks, like in any other competitive game, the top perks rise to the top and alternative weird perks aren't worth messing around.
SWF can use pharmacy but they can also just equip 4 med-kit with charges and red syringes. that is all the healing you'll ever need. if they want more healing, they'll just run 4 adrenaline. Might as well use top perks rather middle ground stuff.
I mean, it sounds like you're agreeing with me now, so you'll have to forgive me for asking for more clarification.
That makes it sound like it's a good idea to start changing some things. If a perk is only even potentially useful for those in a super coordinated four-stack, AND people in that very specific configuration have no real reason to want to run it even then because it's heavily outclassed by a wealth of other options, it kinda sounds like the perk is operating in a pretty lacklustre state and could use an overhaul.
For instance, a rework that allows it to better fulfil its intended role as an emergency self-heal by uncoupling it from medkits and bringing more unique, evocative flavour to its use.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756020#Comment_3756020
Plus, I'll direct you again to the question I asked in the last post: Isn't that still worth fixing, even if everything I'm describing were
somehow wrong? Isn't it bad for a perk to only be useful in hyper coordinated SWF groups?Isn't that what 80% of the survivor perks are currently? they're only good in a swf. If they're good in soloq, they're often perceived as too strong/busted perks. For example For the people+Buckle up was a perk that people complained about. it wasn't that good in soloq but it was still good enough for some soloq player to run it that it got nerfed to the ground.
If everyone was forced to actually use CoH's 22 seconds ish as their heal every time, the perk never would've been as huge a problem as it was, because that's only "decent". A version of that, but with a slightly longer heal, way less flexibility, and way more prep time, is flat out bad.
If self-healing wasn't issue than why was one of biggest target nerf for said perk to remove self-healing effect from the perk? COH biggest strength was ability to self-heal without a med-kit. It is one of mains reasons why COH isn't selected by most soloq players anymore. the setup for totem and than requiring two people to heal doesn't have any merit. it is not time efficient. It is why you see we'll make it with 8.16% pick-rate in soloq for Nightlight.
I am saying that pharmacy is close to comparable to old COH in term of self-healing capacity when 4 purple coin offering are used. there is just chest everywhere and searching a chest at 80% of speed and self-healing has similar benefits to setting up a boon and self-healing.
In order:
1: No, I don't think that's accurate, most survivor perks are perfectly usable in solo queue.
However, if that WERE accurate… does it become okay all of a sudden? Isn't it still a problem for solo queue players to not be able to make use out of perks like this? Isn't it a problem for a perk to be innocuous in solo queue but broken in SWF?
2: I feel like I already addressed this, but self healing WAS the problem with old CoH. It just wasn't CoH ALONE that caused the problem. The issue with that perk was that a very small extra investment (a medkit, and maybe Botany if you're feeling fancy) made CoH a station for ultra-fast self heals that were significantly faster than someone else healing you.
Self healing is problematic when it's FAST. It's not problematic when, like with medkits, Strength in Shadows, and Inner Strength, it's SLOWER than someone else healing you.
As an aside, we're not talking about solo queue in this discussion, we're talking about SWF. You're contending that Pharmacy is a top tier source of healing for SWFs, right? That's why I bring up that perks like We'll Make It and Circle of Healing are significantly better for SWFs. They're also not actually that bad for solo queue because the problem is lack of coordination rather than time inefficiency, but we're not talking about that here.
3: To address your last part about Pharmacy being comparable to old CoH: Only if you view CoH used ON ITS OWN, which it wasn't before and wouldn't have been particularly problematic if it were. Old CoH, meaningfully and consistently, provided FASTER self heals than someone else healing you. Medkits provide SLOWER heals.
The prep time of CoH was considered acceptable and even strong because it paid for itself by making subsequent heals faster. It still does, if you're in a SWF, it's a very very good perk if you have the coordination to use it. What you're describing is putting in more prep time than old or current CoH to make everyone heal slower.
If you put LESS prep time into using a perk like WMI or CoH, while in a coordinated SWF, time spent healing overall goes down, considerably. If you put prep time into opening every chest on the map with Pharmacy, in a coordinated SWF who then use those medkits to self heal, time spent healing overall goes UP.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755940#Comment_3755940
depends on how many people run pharmercy. two people can open chests twice as fast around the map lowering the time commitment. 24 second self-heal is not that slow. in fact, it is only +1 second slower then original circle of healing at 50%. the only risk you have is running out of med-kits. while 10 med-kit is a lot of med-kits, it is not infinity healing but for average match, that many med-kits is sufficient in most situations.
Two people could run Pharmacy to open chests twice as fast… or one person could run current Circle of Healing to get vastly more efficient heals for less prep time.
Two people could run Pharmacy to open chests twice as fast… or everyone could just bring a medkit with two heals and get the same effect for zero prep time.
Two people could run Pharmacy to open chests twice as fast… or two people could run We'll Make It and get much better healing efficiency overall.
The fact remains that prep time like that only pays off if the resulting heal is SHORTER than default, but the heal you get from a medkit is LONGER than default. Medkits are good specifically because of the flexibility and lack of investment that comes with them. You just have the medkit, from the start of the trial, and can use it whenever you need. They're also good because their only "decent" baseline can be improved, via addons and perks, which doesn't come into play with Pharmacy here.
Even when medkits were busted, Pharmacy wasn't appealing because having to go find and search a chest for an item you could just bring in yourself was an unnecessary extra step. Now that medkits aren't busted, it's honestly detrimental, whether the heal goes to you or to your teammate.
It's not like the ACTUAL situation old Circle of Healing enabled, where everyone's healing was significantly faster than someone else healing them due to stacking CoH with their (old) medkits or something like Botany. If everyone was forced to actually use CoH's 22 seconds ish as their heal every time, the perk never would've been as huge a problem as it was, because that's only "decent". A version of that, but with a slightly longer heal, way less flexibility, and way more prep time, is flat out bad.
Plus, I'll direct you again to the question I asked in the last post: Isn't that still worth fixing, even if everything I'm describing were somehow wrong? Isn't it bad for a perk to only be useful in hyper coordinated SWF groups?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755839#Comment_3755839
those perks require two survivors to heal. Pharmacy and med-kit don't require 2 people to heal. They only require a single player to go around map opening chests. It is arguably more potent than all other healing perks. that is simply how good med-kits are.
It's a fine niche tactic for hyper coordinated SWFs, but even in that context it's worse than a lot of other options- and a perk only being good in that context would still warrant changes even without that.
i disagree that it is worse then other options. part of its strength is ability to compress survivor's perk slots. 1 person runs pharmacy and everyone has access to abundant amount of med-kits.
There is just simply no perk where using a single slot rivals that much self-healing capacity for a team. Only Old circle of healing and pre-nerfed self-care at 80% efficiency were better perks than this form of healing. Those two perks were some of strongest perks in dbd's history.
if the perk were to get buffed, it could have an additional effect where med-kits found in the chest have double the amount of charges. In other words, they have iri gel dressing and bandage add-on equipped. Now it goes from a perk that SWF can niche abuse to a perk that soloq might run with coin offering to get 2 heals.
Yes, those perks require two survivors to heal, but the actual time investment would be so much lower that it's much stronger.
What you're describing is spending an insane amount of time running around the map opening chests just so everyone's heal can be slower than you healing them to begin with, after you've spent all that time setting it up. Medkits aren't fast anymore, this time investment doesn't pay off.
Even if what you're describing were as strong as you're describing it, wouldn't that still be a good reason to rework it? To make it so that it's not something SWF can abuse, and also making it so solo queue can benefit from it just as much?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755686#Comment_3755686
What exactly is stronger then 24 second self-heals? Med-kit are still incredible powerful and dare i say over-tuned. It is because they unlock self-healing action but don't cost any perk slot to use.
Pharmacy is like old circle of healing. you spend 1 perk slot and entire team unlocks an extremely fast self-care action because of abundant amount of med-kits that the perk can produce. It has two downsides to balance itself. the first is amount of heals is == to amount of chest. a non-factor for swf team that just runs 4 coin offerings. The other is that survivor that opens chest must be injured. Also a non-factor in most cases because survivors will be injured at some point in the trial.
If the goal is to get your teammates healed, there are a lot of better options. Botany Knowledge, We'll Make It, Desperate Measures, even Circle of Healing itself works better as a zone of keeping your teammates healed than you personally spending a whole lot of time unlocking various chests just so your teammates can get a slower heal than if you'd not spent the time at all and healed them directly.
That's if we're assuming you want your teammates healed, too. If we're just looking at what's stronger than 24 second self heals, then 22 second self heals (Strength in Shadows) or a 20 second disjointed self heal (Inner Strength, 12 seconds cleansing and 8 seconds in a locker) would both count. Whether it's considered an altruistic heal or a self heal, Pharmacy just doesn't stack up against the other options.
Medkits are still very good, yes, but they're not that good. The old medkits, absolutely, the old Emergency Medkit was flat out broken, and even an old regular medkit would've made what you're describing only kind of weird instead of a flat waste of time. New medkits, though? Those heals are already slower than if you'd just healed them outright, and that's not counting all the time you spent unlocking those chests.
The only benefit to what you're describing is that teammates don't need to be near you to heal, but that brings us back to the age-old problem with this perk: They can just bring themselves a medkit and it'd be better than relying on Pharmacy. It's a fine niche tactic for hyper coordinated SWFs, but even in that context it's worse than a lot of other options- and a perk only being good in that context would still warrant changes even without that.
Pharmacy is weak and undesirable either way, and since it's pretty clearly meant to be a self heal perk, that's where I'd like to see it improved.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755712#Comment_3755712
Feel like the issue with gen times comes down to alot of stacking. You can have one game where people run balanced builds (as in perks that cover different things), and the next match people can run a full loadout that all stacks towards gen speed.How can you balance something with both these approaches in mind?
While killer slowdowns have been designed in an anti-synergy approach, survivor gen speed perks can for the most part ALL stack. Killer slowdown are generally divided between progress reduction and gen blocking. Gens that are blocked or already regressing can't be kicked to utilize perks like Pop, while gens that are blocked ALSO don't regress, even if they would otherwise be regressing (ruin for example). IMO, this is a pretty good approach. On the survivor side though... no such approach is taken. Most gen speed perks can be used in tandem.
Well, like I said, you'd balance around that by identifying the lynchpin of those builds: Toolboxes.
A survivor could be running four perks that all increase gen speeds, but because of their numbers and design, they'd pale in comparison to just running a toolbox with good addons, let alone with good addons and a supporting build.
It's entirely possible that perks alone could become an issue in the future, with more releasing and more changes coming in, but as it stands right now, a survivor even dedicating all four perks to gen speed just isn't getting particularly unbalanced results if we're exempting toolboxes from the discussion. Add toolboxes in, and the problem appears.
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@RhodosGuard said:
I dont understand people saying Gen Times are okay.
I know people in this community are split about otzdarva, but a year ago, he made a video about why gen repair times are/were problematic. With the thesis being, that it is hard to play around gen times that can vary as widely as they do considering toolboxes and perks.
And since then, they nerfed Killers access to slowdown in a way, that makes it even less controllable, so every game I load up, it's gambling on whether I hear a gen pop as or before I get my first hook, or if the survs will sit on 4 Gens for 10 minutes because none of them has any way to speed them up while I sit on 1 Pentimento that they just refuse to clear.
I general I agree with the notion, that it seems there is more discouragement rather than encouragement for certain playstyles.
Easily accessible and reliable options are slowdown, and everything else risks the game not being fun, so Killers dont run it.Then there is also the circle of toxicity, where it becomes hard to not slug against bully groups. If I dont slug, I get Sabo'd or Flashlighted. So I either Slug or refuse to play.
I also agree, that tools that were supposed to be anti-tunneling are often abused.
Like an unhooked person bodyblocking knowing they have Basekit/Perk BT active. Or people refusing to participate in the game after a hook, so they can preserve DS for it's full duration, even if I dont chase them.
It's almost like they dont mean it, when they say they dont want to be tunneled, because they do everything in their power to make me want to tunnel them.I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say that gen times are okay, it's always with the added element of "except for" toolboxes.
If nobody in the trial has toolboxes - even if they're running something like Resi or Deja Vu or Overzealous or what have you - gen times are okay.
This is meaningful because it helps us narrow down what the talking point and feedback should be. It's not that gen times need looking at, it's that toolboxes need to be nerfed, specifically.
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Personal judgement based on my own experience with it, my overall understanding of the game outside of my own matches, and a little bit of community feedback.
I do go on to provide my reasoning in the post, talking about its various incarnations and their place in the wider game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755534#Comment_3755534
that was a bit of humour. I think the joke was that meg wasn't going to be stealing your med-kit, instead you will be giving her a med-kit because you have like 10 med-kits to spare.
I went back to that dev update to go reconfirm, and it reads like this:
Considering the two options presented are "hope nobody takes it" and "hide it", I think it's fair to say Pharmacy is considered a self-healing perk first and foremost, with the possibility of altruistic healing just being only that, a possibility. The focus is still on you getting to use your medkit on yourself, after all.
It's still important to note that, at the time this update was written, the perk still gave you a green medkit, the only one with a self-heal bonus.
As an aside, it's not like it matters. As an altruistic healing perk in a SWF, Pharmacy is still excessively mediocre and not worth running over much better options since it still requires a lot of prep-time for a medkit that isn't any better than any other medkit these days. It still needs to be buffed, and making it more focused on self-healing would still be a way of doing that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754727#Comment_3754727
Pharmacy is not suppose compete with self-healing perks. It is suppose be a perk that you equip to search all chests on the map to floor entire map with green med-kits which act as Circle of healing boon stations. It is team-based perk that requires SWF-level synergy to gain value.
It is extremely powerful in principal. You get injured, you search every chest on the map with 4 of those chest offering and now entire map is floor with 10+ green med-kits all over the floor. that is a lot of health-states and self-healing efficiency. It is not good for soloq because soloq cannot see each other perks and doesn't have coordination to utilize perk its to full potencial but this is easily of stronger healing perks for SWF.
The only balance they put on it to not make it crazy in swf is injured condition but this is also very easily mitigated by using For the people to become injured early on by force. After that. it is just med-kit city.
I don't think that's true at all.
For starters, I don't think the perk would've given you the only medkit explicitly designed to heal yourself if it was supposed to be for healing your team. That alone says to me that we're supposed to consider Pharmacy an emergency heal for yourself, not a way of healing your team faster.
Second, when they changed it in 6.1.0, the little joking flavour text they put in the changelog was "try stealing my medkit now, Meg" which implies that they wanted to make it LESS likely for Pharmacy's medkit to go to someone else instead of you.
Pharmacy is supposed to compete with self heal perks. It's just not good at it, and never has been.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754612#Comment_3754612
i think its gonna be the 4th option Twins rework option: Takes months of reworking and push to ptb, people will never like skullmerchant and complain, Entire rework gets scrapped with months of work gone, Skullmerchant remains the same and is back of line to get changes now
To be fair, some of the stuff on the Twins PTB really did need to not hit live, there were some serious balance concerns there.
Which leads me to believe the same prrrooobably won't happen with Skull Merchant? Unless they actually pull a Twins and what they work on ends up being very unbalanced.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754125#Comment_3754125
The basekit stuff that survivors could do to abuse things have been pretty much removed (infinite loops, locker flashlight saves, etc). I think that's a good thing. Now the things that are left require specific perks and offerings and have been weakened (eg Boil Over and map offerings). The only thing that could be considered basekit that needs looking at would be off hook bodyblocking. I'd rather basekit BT come with no collision detection for both sides sake.
The basekit stuff that Killers can do to abuse things have been weakened a bit but not removed (tunnelling and camping) or are unchanged (4 person slug for the win).
I don't know if that helps with your question or not or provides any clarity to anyone but, in my opinion, there is one basekit item left on the survivor side to look at and three to look at on the Killer side (although if tunnelling were taken care of my opinion is that would also eliminate any camping issues).
It was a rhetorical question, for the record, I already knew that there isn't really anything left for survivors to abuse without bringing specific tools.
That's why it isn't a double standard to talk about it that way, it's just true. The problematic survivor stuff DOES require tools and DOESN'T come up in many matches, whereas the problematic killer stuff (at least the stuff being talked about) doesn't require tools and at least CAN come up much more frequently.
Saying that doesn't mean both shouldn't be addressed, they both should, it just means that the shape of the problem is different and the shape of the solution would also necessarily be different.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754612#Comment_3754612
1: They completely gut her power with a series of huge nerfs. Nobody will be happy with this; people who like her get their killer ruined, and the people who hate her aren't going to suddenly reverse course because she's a bad killer now.
not sure how true that is. if a killer is really bad and you escape every time you play vs them. you're more likely to have less d/c because it is free win. free win for survivor == fun/bully material. The issue is that if killer is so bad, nobody will play skull merchant. If the killer has like 0.1% pick-rate than the character is effectively deleted from the game and that exactly what these d/c people want from that complaint. her deleted from the game. childish behaviour if you ask me.
Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't think the tone of the complaints are going to change if she becomes super weak and bad. Maybe they'll become less frequent, but you'll still have people talking about how her design sucks and they hate going against her even though she's weak.
It's not like she has a super high pickrate or super high strength right now, after all. I wouldn't call her weak, but she's pretty middle of the pack, and people still act like she has no counterplay and there's no skill expression for either side.
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It's possible, but I don't think Tomb Raider would be the precedent that they'd pull from if it were.
Tomb Raider - at least the one we're getting - veers really close to just being a flat out survival horror game in tone and presentation, it's pretty fitting for DBD.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I only played the first three, but I'm pretty sure Uncharted stays a bombastic action-setpiece kind of game for the whole franchise, right?
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754727#Comment_3754727
I hear you. Tho Devs stated they want altruistic healing being main source of healing. Thus any other ways of being healed should be inferior to this.
Sis and IH are little op in my opinion, especially sis with botany knowledge tho this combo also boosts altruistic healing so maybe it's not that bad.
But because of that, we should compare time spend on getting healed by the perk to time needed for being healed by someone else. This is why I think those 15s are too fast. Making this between 20-30s would be more balanced. If this helps we can make countdown for this effect also while downed, so that surv can stand up if killer downs them before healed.
It's my opinion that SiS and IH are about where self heal perks should be, balance wise. Both are limited in terms of time, Inner Healing requiring a totem to be found and cleansed before being static in a locker and Strength in Shadows requiring you to run to the basement as well as being slower than default heal speed without Botany, and IH is limited in terms of uses, too.
With the right supporting perks, you can make both genuinely strong and reliable, but they'll always require something more from you than just starting to heal.
That's why I think this version of Pharmacy would work. It's meaningfully limited in terms of how many times you can use it, and has roughly comparable time investments to those other tools too. You wouldn't be able to use it to delete killer pressure on you as many times as you wanted, which was the problem with old healing, but it'd be more desirable than someone else healing you in a lot of scenarios, which is kind of required for a limited-use perk.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754593#Comment_3754593
You should not count this 16s delay since you can do whatever you want in this time, like doing gens. Which is main point of this. Doing gens is a moat important thing, because without this, you cannot succeed in trial. Each second you do other things is a trade off. But since you can do gens while delay, you can't count it as a price. Thus the time price is only chest opening and animation, plus variable of looking for a chest.
Even so, I'm pretty sure what I'm pitching would be relatively balanced. You'd still have a timesink so it's not broken, but you get the efficiency of getting to repair generators for half of it, meaning it's good competition to things like medkits or SiS or Inner Healing.
It'd have to be tested, obviously, but I still think this is the best way to buff Pharmacy. Plus, even if a change did end up being necessary, I think the smarter choice would be to make the animation longer rather than the chest opening part take longer, that'd probably feel less obnoxious to the player while still representing a higher timesink overall.
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@WolfyWood said:
This is good news because finally we won't have 9000 threads filled with delusion about how she has no problems and it's just survivors being unsportsmanlike.
That'll only happen if people stop complaining about her afterwards, and I'm not convinced that'll happen.
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I'm not convinced it's supposed to be faster than DS. It's very purposefully not too fast for a flashlight or pallet save, so I think whenever some people get remote-hooked before they can activate DS, it's a latency thing.
I might be wrong, though. And hey, at least the event's over now!
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It's a pretty ominous sign for everyone, but I'm crossing my fingers it won't be too bad. The way I see it, there are three broad directions this rework could go, and while none of them will actually address the problem (because the problem is "people don't like her" and their reasons aren't actually moored in anything real about her power for the most part), ONE of them would be a good thing in general.
The three directions I see this going are:
1: They completely gut her power with a series of huge nerfs. Nobody will be happy with this; people who like her get their killer ruined, and the people who hate her aren't going to suddenly reverse course because she's a bad killer now.
2: They do another huge overhaul that fundamentally changes her power, like the change that got us to her current kit. This probably won't make people stop hating her - the previous rework didn't despite fixing all her issues and adding very few appreciable new ones - and it'll suck for the people who like her. Small chance it's also an improvement and people who like her now will still like her afterwards, but it'd still suck to lose her current design.
3: They address the problems her kit ACTUALLY has with a fairly large number of individually somewhat small changes. This is what I'm hoping for, but y'know, it obviously won't fix the problem on its own since her actual problems rarely come up in complaint threads. Since this would include "drop something at loop, survivor runs away", it would at least help, so it's worth pursuing as an option from BHVR's standpoint, but it's not as though most people fully understand even that problem, so. Y'know.
Any one of these options would probably take time, so I'm not too surprised by the timeframe we've been given. There's no way Merchant is a super high priority, and changes take time even disregarding that.
Our best hope, whichever option the devs go for, is that the fire kind of fizzles out and everyone moves on to complain about something else so we can finally be free of this exhausting discourse. I'm not holding my breath, but it's a hope.
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@Archael said:
If we add 10s of oppening the chest and 5s of animation, its 15s for health state, compared to regular 16s of being healed by someone else is qiite ok, but then… you have to find this someone else, which takes time, and this thing gives you 15s self heal multiple times in a match. That why oppening chests should lasts longer, 30%-40% slower chest oppening gives 14-16s of chest +5s of animation and time to find a chest makes it more fair
If we assume 10s of opening the chest, and 5s of animation, that'd be 31 seconds for a health state, surely?
10 for the chest, plus 5 for the animation is 15, but then you add the 16 seconds that the actual item takes after you've used it. It'd be like the Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe, it'd start a timer before it actually heals you. That's still better than someone else healing you, but it still requires trading away time to gain the extra efficiency.
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Eh, I can't say I really mind either way. The old ones had their charm, the new ones still look perfectly fine, I don't think I feel particularly strongly about either.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754074#Comment_3754074
Ah, that changes things then. I'm not familiar with the animation (I wasn't around when it got added) and I thought it was more like 3. 5 would be pretty difficult to use in a chase unless you had a stealth build, and then you could be using Bite the Bullet anyway.
Pretty much, yeah - and there wouldn't even be anything stopping Pharmacy from using a longer variation of it, if I am wrong about how long the vaccine animation is specifically.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754087#Comment_3754087
The double standard is that pretty much every "problematic" killer behavior, like camping, slugging, tunneling, 3-gen, etc… is super easy to achieve in any game, by any killer, at any time. It promotes the idea that killers can easily be problematic, and killers need nerfs because they are often being problematic…
…But when pretty much every survivor "problematic" behavior is hyper specific, and can't even possibly occur in most games, it promotes the idea that survivors don't need nerfs, because survivor problematic behaviors are so very rare.
Okay, but you've got to actually demonstrate that to be wrong for it to be an unfair double standard.
Broadly, though, it's true. Can you give any examples of problematic survivor behaviour in this vein, that doesn't require specific tools, that would require some kind of nerf?
Killers can tunnel and camp without any tools. Slugging too, but slugging isn't a problem in that vein. In order for that to be an unfair statement to make, you'd need to demonstrate that survivors have some kind of equivalent problem that doesn't require specific tools.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/419435/dbd-definitions
Defining Tunneling as something that any killer could easily do in any game, but defining Gen-Rushing as a super specific thing that can't even happen in most games… just shows a double standard where think killers can easily achieve problematic behaviors, but survivors are free to do whatever in most games because the standard bar for problematic survivor behavior is so very very high that it often can't be achieved.
I mean, it is a double standard, they are different concepts. It's not that one is the equivalent of the other, because they aren't, really. Survivors aren't leveraging some massively unbalanced gap in the base game mechanics when they genrush, they're bringing the best tools possible and getting an unbalanced result because of it.
The equivalent on the killer side would be stacking four slowdown perks and getting unbalanced results because of it. Bringing a specific build that heavily affects one specific area, that's the connective tissue.
There isn't really an equivalent to tunnelling in this regard for survivor, because, well, what basekit gaps are there for survivors to abuse?
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@Laluzi said:
You know, I never thought about the medkit nerf making Pharmacy completely worthless? Granted, I haven't thought about Pharmacy much since 6.1 nerfed it for no reason at all, but you're right, this perk is pits now.
As for the rework - very interesting. I love the thematic tightness on show and I'm intrigued by the syringe effect, but I think there needs to be limits on how many syringes you can get. Raising it to the number of chests in the match is a little insane when these things can potentially be used mid-chase - with more difficulty than the OG near-instant pop you could pull off, but still viable in strong enough tiles or mid-chase stealth builds. How long is the vaccine animation again?
The actual vaccine animation is about five seconds, iirc, and there's an addon that can bump that up by another five.
This'd need to be tested, but I feel like it'd be kind of hard to stand still for five seconds in a chase to use this that way. The actual syringe only requires about one second or so, right? Enough time for the prompt to show up.
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I'd broadly agree with those two definitions, though I think the definition for genrushing could stand to be a little more lenient. You don't need all four perks to be dedicated to gen speed to genrush, and it's also not "gen speed" so much as perks that enable their toolboxes. Streetwise and Built to Last with two unrelated perks is still a good genrush build, after all.
I'd also nitpick your calling out tunnelling at five gens, because it's not as though tunnelling is any less unbalanced when it happens later in the game, it's just more understandable for the killer to try if they're losing. It's still unbalanced either way, though.