jesterkind
jesterkind
About
- Username
- jesterkind
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,633
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771554#Comment_3771554
my question is, where is generator defence perk buffs in this patch? Like whole reason why generator defence perk were nerfed was to make killer less reliant on generator defence perks. The way they did that is by making camp more effective. Now they're nerfing camping, so where is generator defence perks at?
Increases hook stage - > survivor can gen-rush more by leaving survivors longer on hooks but the killer don't have same gen perks they had prior to said change. My thought on this change is gen-rushing is stronger and killer got all their perk nerfed.
so where is all base-kit generator regress stuff at or what perks are killers suppose to use that have high impact like before?
What are you referring to when you say that they decided to make camping more effective?
The last time they did buffs to offset gen perk nerfs to my recollection was 6.1.0, and all those buffs were aimed at making chasing more effective. I can't think of any patch where the devs either said outright they wanted to make camping more effective, or even just implied it with their actions. What am I missing here?
-
How does that punish players who don't camp?
If anything, from my perspective, the effects it'll have on my gameplay are either neutral or outright positive.
-
…In this patch.
There's no requirement for this patch to have an equal amount of changes for both survivors and killers. And, as I said, the specific survivor buffs we did get are appealing to see from the killer perspective as well.
-
@legiondoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771762#Comment_3771762
I dont care if they rework freddy to be s tier and they buff every bad survivor perk there need to be some balanced between the two. Cause then bhvr will think we want a patch where 1 side gets no buffs and the other gets 20 buffs
There does need to be balance between the attention the two sides get overall, but there's no requirement for it to be perfectly and arbitrarily equal between roles in every patch.
Besides, you need to look at it more holistically than that. The killer experience gets better if people run the goofy meme perks more than the actually powerful meta perks, after all, a buff to something on the survivor side can still be very appealing for the killer side to see as well.
-
Is it really required to make sure there's buffs to both sides' perks in every single patch? I think it's okay for some patches to focus more on the specific things the devs had ideas for/are already finished. There's always next patch, after all.
Besides, on top of the three killer buffs looking pretty juicy and the Midwich + scratch marks changes looking interesting, I'd argue that survivors getting a suite of buffs to perks that are more active and engaging to play against (for the most part, anyway) is to the killer's benefit too. More variety is good, and more meme-y perks are fun to face, too.
-
@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771548#Comment_3771548
Even if they are changing her it's gonna be, effectively, pointless unless they do a total overhaul of her power design since, regardless of how she's reworked otherwise, people are still gonna complain.
To be fair, there are some small things that could be improved with her current power, so a suite of changes wouldn't necessarily be pointless as long as we understand the point to be "fixing the problems that do exist" rather than "fixing people hating her".
-
@ReverseVelocity said:
I'm not gonna lie I have no idea how they'd fit all that in a perk description.
It's a cool idea, but overcomplicated. All they need to do is remove the injured requirement and that's it.
Devour Hope and Huntress Lullaby have their various scaling effects fit onto their perk card, I think they'd be able to make it work in the description.
It is a little on the involved side, but I think it's okay for some perks to work like that!
-
Hopefully, it'll be in line with the killer updates we've had for others, where it's a series of small tweaks that doesn't fundamentally change the core of the power. That's all she needs, and no amount of reworking her is gonna stop people from being mad so we can't be looking at this rework as a way of fixing that.
I really hope they don't do a second fundamental, ground-up rework. It'd be a shame to lose a cool and interesting killer for no reason.
-
@Langweilig said:
I like your idea, but I think the only real use of this perk is autodidact and instead of playing both perks to make autodidact viable, I would prefer that they give autodidact a 10% increase skill check chance while healing.
I don't think that's true, I think Deadline has a fair few uses when it's active. Just off the top of my head, in addition to Autodidact, you've got Stake Out + Hyperfocus builds and the medkit build that uses both suture addons for great skill checks, alongside just making both healing and repairs potentially stronger overall if you can hit the skill checks.
Besides, if you did that you'd have to fully rework Deadline or Autodidact would get absurd when paired with it.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770396#Comment_3770396
But even when they are strong like you say, they aren‘t appealing nor interesting/fun/useful so that people would want to play them. Most of the newer perks are too extremely niche and have stupid conditions for what they do.
The only good perk change was grim embrace and coup de grace in the last year. Adre got nuked, STBFL got made useless for any not m1 character, MFT is useless and far too difficult to activate (they could have just reduced the haste to 2% and it would have been fine), UW bad, Hangman‘s trick was okey before not even strong and they nerfed it, Buckle up got nuked whether or not justified, wiretap got worse (I used it before, but since it takes 50%, it‘s just not worth it), Prove thyslef unnecessary nerf, POPGW, COH bad (they should have reduced the self healing speed and make shattered hope basekit) and COB/Overcharge both overnerfed like most of the other perks. One that was a buff, but was a nerf in my build is Autodidact and emphatic connection. It was so much better before. They reduced perk variety by a huge junk.
Shure they buffed perks, but in such a minimal way that they can‘t really be better and that it doesn‘t really matter, while making liked perks bad.
Well, the question you kind of have to ask is why they aren't appealing. For some perks, it's obvious: Genetic Limits, for example, may be a good and strong perk, but you get zero feedback for when it's working and that makes it very unappealing. For other perks, it's a lot less obvious- for example, Champion of Light. By all accounts, that perk should be appealing - it's strong, it affects chases which are the most appealing part of survivor gameplay for a lot of players, and it buffs an item that people already bring for fun.
Yet, a lot of people will argue very aggressively that it's not even good to begin with, and that's a little bit confusing given the reality of the situation.
That's not even considering perks where it's also obvious why they're not appealing, but not because the perk has anything wrong with it. Light-Footed is a very strong perk, but a lot of players just don't value audio stealth and don't understand just how strong it is, on top of it being a passive perk that doesn't give obviously flashy results. There's nothing wrong with Light-Footed and it definitely doesn't need to be buffed, but it's still not appealing enough to break into the meta, and to a degree that's okay. Not every perk needs to be in the top ten most picked perks in order to be considered good.
When it comes to perk nerfs, most of them were basically fine. Grim Embrace/Deadlock/Pain Res are all still basically the same, frankly, though Pop did take a hefty hit. Adrenaline is still one of the strongest perks in the game, Buckle Up is still useful but in a healthy way, Decisive Strike is still fine. STBFL got hit with a really messy nerf and MFT is very niche now, but even those perks are still perfectly usable in the right context. Circle of Healing is still an exceptional perk, its use case just changed. Most of these nerfs are both appropriate since the perk in question was strong/unhealthy enough to warrant it, and measured enough to not ruin the perks. Sure, we got a couple unnecessary and poorly done ones like Prove Thyself and arguably Pop, but those are very firmly the minority of changes.
Then we get to perk buffs, and things have improved quite a lot over the past few patches. This patch alone gave sizable buffs to:
- Darkness Revealed
- Machine Learning
- Trail of Torment
- I'm All Ears
- Oppression
- Dragon's Grip
- Autodidact
- Iron Will
- Empathetic Connection
- Resurgence
- Solidarity
- Babysitter
Even being extremely restrictive and discounting buffs like Darkness Revealed and Dragon's Grip, where the perks are definitely better but still need some improvements, that's still a huge list of perks being bumped up into viability. Then we factor in buffs like Furtive Chase, Coup de Grace, Cruel Limits, Saboteur, Smash Hit… hell, we got Deja Vu in year seven. If we go back a little bit further, we also get the exceptional buffs to Gearhead and Overzealous. Some of those other listed buffs might not be huge, but they're noticeable.
The fact of the matter is, if you're concerned more with viability without factoring in popularity, perk variety has been going up far faster than it's been going down over the past year and a bit. It's why threads like this are worthwhile, because BHVR do make good changes to underperforming perks. There's good reason to think pointing out the whys of a certain perk or list of perks being not very good would result in some meaningful changes, at least eventually.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3770072#Comment_3770072
Your and my definition of good are two different worlds, but since most of the newer perks aren‘t played, it‘s safe to say that the majority of perks were just bad and that there were a few okey/good ones, but no great ones.
Edit: I was talking in my post above about current versions of perks, that means MFT and UW are in no way good.
Other question: Do you agree with me that they made more perks bad by nerfing them instead of making more perks useful in the last year?
Tying a perk's strength to whether or not people run it is not a very wise tactic, in my opinion. People run mediocre perks like Windows and actively bad perks like Self-Care all the time, and some very strong perks don't get much play. What it would be safe to say is that most new perks haven't been appealing enough to break into the meta, but that's a very different statement to saying that they're actually bad. Some of them have been very strong, even.
To that last question, no. I don't think many perks were made all that bad by their nerfs, and they HAVE been buffing perks to be more appealing at the same time. They've been both nerfing and buffing, and most of the post-nerf perks are still perfectly okay. Not all of them, mind, but most of them to my recollection.
-
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769978#Comment_3769978
A Medkit is significantly better than SC. The bar is low. At least with SC one can heal anywhere on the map.
I get that, I'm responding to your comparison specifically, though.
You can heal anywhere on the map… extremely slowly. With SiS, if you just run to the basement, you can heal very quickly. It's significantly better and legitimately quite strong, I run it myself all the time.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769967#Comment_3769967
Maybe I should call it bad perks that nobody will ever use (aka trash perks). The perks I don‘t talk about are just bad.
Singularity: Forced hesitation is good for slugging.
Soma: All not good.
Ripley: Chemical trap/Light footed both mediocre and not really good.
Alien: The perk with a bit of use is rapid brutality.
Nick cage: All meme perks, which is fine. Plot twist is good.
Chucky: Hex two can play is bad, but could be fun with a longer duration. Friends till the end is the best perk we got last year. It‘s still not really strong.
Sable: Strength in shadows is bad, but okey.
Unknown: Unforeseen is good.
Vecna survivor: Nothing good.
Vecna: Languid touch and weave attunement are good.
Lara: Fineese is okay, but still too restricted.
Overall killers got some good perks while survivors got majorly bad perks. Some of them would be easy to buff tho.
Hmm, well, we sort of need to ask if we're talking about the release version of these perks, or the current versions… I'll go for release versions, and we'll go character by character here.
Singularity: So, Machine Learning released kinda bad. I think it's a bit more worth it now? But still clunky and awkward to use. Forced Hesitation has some use as you mention, and Genetic Limits is a good perk but it's unappealing because you get zero feedback when it's working. Overall, Singularity's perks weren't terrible strength wise, but not very appealing for other reasons.
Gabriel: This is where I question whether we are talking about release versions, because Gabriel released with Made For This. That was obviously a good perk, lol. Aside from that one, Scavenger is terrible by necessity because toolboxes are broken + it's PTB version was broken for the same reason, and Troubleshooter is a very solid solo queue perk. Overall, good offering, one bad but two good.
Alan Wake: I have no idea why people act like Champion of Light isn't good, but it is, that's just a good perk. The other two are underwhelming but still have niche uses so I'd call them mediocre, not terrible. Overall, average offerings.
Ripley: All her perks are at least "decent". Lucky Star is a fairly reasonable info perk (+ with a bad stealth element, admittedly), Chemical Trap is a little bit RNG since you need the right pallet but is good on those pallets, and Light-Footed is very strong since denying the killer tracking is almost always good and specifically footsteps are a strong thing to remove. Good offerings overall.
Xenomorph: Now, I'm of the opinion that Ultimate Weapon was massively overrated, but it wasn't terrible either, it was just only decent on a handful of killers. Alien Instinct is a solid info perk, and Rapid Brutality is niche but strong within that niche. Good offerings overall.
Nic Cage: No arguments there. They're all meme perks, but they're fun ones and they all have some reasonable strength too. Weaker than some other options, but good additions anyway.
Chucky: Two Can Play is bad but both Friends Til The End and Batteries Included are solid perks. BI is a bit more niche since you generally want to build around it, but in that niche it's pretty good. Decent offerings overall.
Sable: While Weaving Spiders released pretty bad + is only "okay" now, both of Sable's other perks are very dependable and solid. Strength in Shadows is a very reliable self healing perk, and Wicked provides a crazy amount of killer info after you're unhooked which is very useful for avoiding any incidental/opportunistic tunnelling + for knowing if you have the freedom to let your teammate heal you under the hook or not. Great offerings overall, even factoring in that Weaving Spiders is not great.
Unknown: These perks were pretty bad. Unforeseen is okay and niche, but the other two were pretty mediocre, I have a hard time justifying running them. Not great offerings overall.
The Bards: As this thread points out and I agree with, all of these perks need buffs. They have pretty good designs, though, so at least they only need buffs and not reworks. Bad offerings overall. Bonus points for the meme potential of Bardic Inspiration, though.
Vecna: All Vecna's perks have good use cases. Weave Attunement is nasty, Languid Touch is a very dependable anti-Exhaustion perk, and while Dark Arrogance is the weakest of the three, its downside isn't quite as bad as people made it out to be and it stacks well with others. Good offerings overall.
Lara: All of her perks are good and have strong effects, but require a little work. Finesse is very strong but requires solid play to keep up, and the other two provide respectable value. Good offerings overall, with an asterisk.
—
Overall, perk design has been pretty good, with only a few outliers. I think the impulse to downplay recent perks - especially survivor perks - comes from a combination of not getting very many broadly-applicable passive perks, and from the fact that some perks have analogues that already exist and people think any perk that's just outclassed is necessarily also bad in its own right, which I don't think is fair. For an example there, Lucky Star is outclassed by any of the perks that are dedicated to showing one of the specific things that perk reveals, but the fact that LS only takes up one perk slot to show you a little of multiple things makes it a perfectly "okay" perk at worst.
To the wider point of the thread, too, it's worth talking about specific bad perks and how we'd buff them, and the idea that recent perks have all/mostly been terrible is kind of irrelevant even if it weren't also completely untrue. It helps to have a clarity of purpose in a discussion like this, and there's nothing wrong with only focusing on specific perks to suggest fixes.
EDIT: forgot Alan Wake, added him in where I think he is chronologically lol
-
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769967#Comment_3769967
Honestly, there's been a good number of terrible perks recently. I'd say Lara came with one, since Hardened requires you to waste a good 30+ seconds looking for and doing side objectives in order to get a slightly better Calm Spirit.
Still Sight, Deadline, Boon: Illumination, Scavenger, Lucky Star and basically every single Tools of Torment Perk aside from Background Player make the list imo.
Most of those are either far too roundabout to get much use from, or outclassed to a major degree.
Where the line between terrible and underwhelming lies is generally subjective, but these perks will basically never end up in a serious build for me.
Tools of Torment definitely had some truly terrible perks, but that was over a year ago now, I wouldn't call that "recent" when it comes to chapter releases.
Scavenger on your list otherwise would be my pick for the last truly terrible perk. Still Sight + Deadline + Illumination are all just a little undertuned, and Lucky Star is better than people think it is. The actual overall average quality of survivor perks recently has been pretty alright, the worst perks tend to just be slightly undertuned and could easily be buffed a little to be more appealing while still being usable as they are.
Also, I realise I never commented on the actual overall point of the thread, so to do that quickly: These buffs seem reasonable, and I broadly agree with the rundown of the perk issues. I'd only really add, I'm pretty sure that Mirrored Illusion's mirages are completely static, and they'd be more interesting if they pantomimed the action they're supposedly performing.
-
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769960#Comment_3769960
Sable released with basement self care and basement deliverance, two perks that aren’t exactly META or common in most regions anyway (I know SC is big in Asia). Situational, which in this game equals bad (at least for survivors). The invocation sucked as well… especially when compared to what the killer received.
Anyway I offered insight as to why survivors continuously release with subpar perks: perks aren’t really the bread and butter of survivors the way they are for killers; cosmetics are. That’s my point.
Strength in Shadows is significantly better than Self-Care. The reason that Self-Care is bad is because it's extremely slow, whereas SiS is quite speedy on its own and outright faster than someone else healing you if paired with Botany, an already strong perk on its own. It's not situational and it's not even niche, it's just a dependable and strong perk.
Wicked, for the record, has a second effect, not just the basement Deliverance. It also gives you a whopping 20 seconds of killer aura reading after both unhooks, regardless of whether you were in the basement or not.
Those perks are good. They're not bad, subpar, trash, or underwhelming.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3769938#Comment_3769938
It‘s so sad that this is 100% true. They introduce too many trash perks and nerf too many good perks.
Is it that true? What was the last outright trash perk we even got outside of the DnD chapter, Weaving Spiders? And that's just release WS, since it's kind of okay now.
Release Scavenger, maybe? That was a little while ago, at this point. Some perks are kinda underwhelming, but it's been a while since we got an outright trash one.
-
Didn't BHVR already tell us how they're going to do this?
It'll go away at the end of the time, then they'll work on it to improve things + presumably add more killers, and it'll come back at a later date. They said they're going to iterate on it and that this is just the first version, iirc.
-
I'm not gonna contest Knock Out being obnoxious, that part really does need addressing, but I can speak to Skull Merchant.
Skull Merchant gets Haste and Hindered from her drones because they're the reason you have any reason to actually avoid the drone beams. Without both of those effects, alongside the injury from the Claw Trap, survivors could just tank the beams without having to think about LoS or crouching to avoid the scans at any stage.
With her current design, the Haste + Hindered are both required for the back-and-forth counterplay that her power encourages. Without them, she'd have a much more flat and boring power for both sides to interact with.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768759#Comment_3768759
Simply changing meta perks for different/worse is insanely short sighted.
It will last few weeks, then players notice they again keep playing against same perks over and over again. So nothing really changed.
They also haaaave been buffing under-used perks…?
How many of those buffed perks got into meta? Except perks that were in old meta like DS, Pop etc.
Basically only one I can think of is Grim embrace for killers at least.
In past year killer's meta selection got smaller instead in my opinion. No new perk got into meta, we had many perk nerfs instead and 3-gen feature made this even worse, because it prohibited certain combinations.
They sometimes buff perks, but they release bad perks and nerf perks at faster rate.
I am definitely looking for promised winter patch that is supposed to buff/rework perks.
I also enjoyed this patch changes, except Knight and bugs. That's true..
I don't think it's fair to call it short sighted when what they did was change the meta perks for a different crop AND laid the groundwork for the meta to get more diverse by removing the requirement to run certain perks. Anti tunnel was at least intended to be no longer necessary, regression perks were intended to be no longer necessary, they removed BP bonuses from two perks ran for that purpose while alleviating the grind so they were no longer necessary, they improved chase-related numbers for killers so more perk types could be considered viable…
You could maybe consider some of those to not be successes - the only one I'd mark as a failure there is that anti-tunnel is still heavily incentivised - but it's still very obvious they were trying to build a better foundation for a healthier meta, even if in the short term people still ran similar perks to what they used to. Ideally, that would've been because they hadn't adapted to the new possibilities, but unfortunately the reality was that on the killer side at least, the replacement perks were unbalanced so people just ran those until they were nerfed. That part I will freely criticise.
When you ask what buffed perks "got into the meta", though, I think there's a need to step back and acknowledge that generally speaking, playerbases will optimise to the smallest number of strongest options where applicable. Generally speaking, "the meta" is probably not going to be a huge number of perks, and while it can be expanded, the goal should be considered more to make as many perks viable as possible, and on that BHVR are doing pretty well.
For example, Gearhead and Furtive Chase are legitimately good perks that are worth running now, where previously they were laughably terrible. The latest patch did a lot to help Machine Learning and Oppression, two formerly terrible perks as well. They may not be "meta" because they can't be considered the literal best, but they still do a ton to help out perk variety in terms of what's viable. You do see more than the same six perks every single game these days, or at least I do, on both sides. Sure, there's still "a meta", but there always will be, removing that isn't the goal.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768751#Comment_3768751
Mission wasn't really successful when total number of meta perks didn't really change.
Meta was still stale, just different perks and often worse.
In the end those perks were buffed back, but most of them not enough.
If they simply keep buffing under picked perks, then some of them get into meta and create more viable builds.
The goal wasn't actually to change the total number of meta perks, though?
I'm sure that would've been a nice bonus, but that patch was an emergency measure to change the specific perks being used because THAT was the thing people were complaining about. Seeing the exact same specific perks, game after game, for years. That was the complaint and that was why that patch happened.
They also haaaave been buffing under-used perks…? They just had to do 6.1.0. first otherwise people wouldn't have ever swapped off. Like, on the survivor side, people still would've been running BT and DS because there still wouldn't be any basekit protection against tunnelling. While those perks - at least DS - are still popular, they're nowhere near as required as they used to be.
Plus, without 6.1.0., some perks - like Dead Hard especially - would still be so overwhelmingly strong that no new or buffed perk could ever reasonably compete, so the patch needed to happen for those perks too. Mostly just Dead Hard, but a few other things were a little too strong too, like Iron Will, Spine Chill, Pop, and Corrupt Intervention. Most of those perks are now still worth it (except SC lol), but they were way stronger before, to the degree that they'd have a chilling effect on any new perks trying to get into the meta.
-
Well, I can answer that last question, at least.
Prior to patch 6.1.0., the game had a problem. There were about six perks on each side that you would see some combination of, almost every single game, for years. The meta was exceptionally stale, and not only was that an observable fact, it was an observable complaint. People were very annoyed with always seeing the exact same builds over and over again, and were demanding BHVR do something to address it.
In response, eventually, BHVR did the one thing they could do: An update that would nerf the stuff being used, buff the stuff not being used, and make a few basekit changes to address perks people feel they needed to run. From this perspective, it's impossible for any perk in that "meta" list to have genuinely been "overnerfed", since it was an emergency measure to address a pervasive problem that had grown out of control.
Before this patch, Ruin was in every game. After, it wasn't. Mission success, unironically.
That being said, Ruin is still a little weak these days, and the more viable perks, the better. With that in mind I'd love to see it brought back up to 200% but with the "disables when someone dies" stipulation added back in, to keep it comparable to other tools.
-
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767231#Comment_3767231
I disagree, butI respect your opinion. Shure she got a lot stronger, but she also lost her character and what made her fun.
The counterplay was always easy and clear, but not really fair in the first reworked version. It was incredibly easy to tunnel people out of the game by just hitting them the tape out of their hands multiple times.
„survivors had an actual reason to mess with tapes“ That’s the first thing I don‘t like about that version and the current version, which passive condemned did a lot better. It‘s incredibly frustrating that survivors constantly shut down my whole power. The other things were her tp cooldown and the mindless tp spam (+some other things)
What problematic addons are you talking about? Her addons became trash ever since they remove passive condemned, because most of them were based on that and the only controversial addon I know about: would be ring drawing.
There was no reason to actually rework her and it seems a lot like BHVR only thought to because of complaints, many of which were extremely questionable in their validity.
I completely agree she never needed the first rework, but the third one was necessary, while it is not perfect, it is better than the first rework.
You couldn't tunnel people and smack tapes out of their hands multiple times. If you're tunnelling them, they didn't have time to pick up tapes.
Mindless TP spam also didn't work unless survivors ignored tapes. All you did by spamming TP, against teams that picked up tapes, was turn off your own mobility.
When it comes to problematic addons, I'm mostly thinking of the… Mother's Comb? I think that's what it's called. A green addon that gave you a loud noise notification when someone grabbed a tape, as well as turning TVs yellow when they're inactive. It still does this, and right now it's… fine, it's okay. When hitting someone with a tape applied Condemned, though, it was way too much free information that made Sadako kind of an autopilot killer.
I'm also reasonably sure her Iri Tape was problematic in that version too, but I may be misremembering there.
The thing about her counterplay before is that it had back-and-forth. They could protect themselves from your mobility + the Condemned it brought, but left themselves vulnerable if you ambushed them. They could be safer from being ambushed, but left themselves vulnerable to the mobility + Condemned.
I will say that changing her Condemned from global to just in proximity to an active TV was basically the single good thing about her latest rework, though, so it's the one major thing I'd keep if she ever did get reverted.
-
@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767231#Comment_3767231
I respect your opinion as I know there are some Onryo mains who enjoyed her 1st rework and they have a right to voice their opinion. However, I am 100% against the idea of going back to her first rework. It was just unbalanced and by its nature hard to balance. Either it was going to punish soloq and lower MMRs hard, or it would be too easy to counter in high MMR. There was not a good way to save that version of her. The 1st rework also was less fun to play for most of us old Onryo mains due to how it restricted her power. That rework just was not thought out very well and I am very happen they scraped it.
I firmly disagree, I don't think her first rework (specifically the last version of it, so after they made the change to holding tapes) was particularly unbalanced, nor do I think it required coordination or a high skill level to counter. It's not as though it's particularly difficult to grab tapes and hold onto them, people just didn't think to do it and acted like that meant Sadako was wildly too strong or something.
I would also argue that the current and original versions of her power, the ones where tapes are an afterthought and her power doesn't mesh with itself very well, are far more restricted than the version I'm talking about where you actually had tools to use and everything worked together cohesively.
-
No, I don't. I think it's okay for a game to not push for 100% realism in any one area, and the slightly more game-y looking animations fit this game perfectly well.
Stuff like this is kind of treated as an objective necessity by a lot of gamers, and I can't say I've ever understood why. What about DBD's aesthetic, gameplay, or identity requires that we have AAA "push against wall" animations and such? It works perfectly well as it is.
-
What Sadako needs is to go back to her most recent version before this one.
That was a power that actually functioned, had clear and coherent counterplay, and had reasonable versatility to allow different builds and tactics from the killer. The elements actually meshed together, the survivors had an actual reason to mess with tapes, and she wasn't really all that strong— but to be fair she never has been and currently isn't, so that's not all that much of a concern for any version. It also didn't really have anything to abuse, save for a few problematic addons that would need to be reworked.
I don't usually go in for this kind of rhetoric, because it isn't usually reasonable, but in this case I really feel inclined to: There was no reason to actually rework her and it seems a lot like BHVR only thought to because of complaints, many of which were extremely questionable in their validity.
-
@Ohyakno said:
Sure, if it's only when someone dies at like 5-4 gens. Oftentimes there's a couple of gens with 50-89% progress that are basically done and regressing them is crucial to winning the game.
I mean, I don't see how?
Maybe if everyone's still alive at one gen remaining, but at that point you've already been performing poorly and slowdown isn't exactly going to save you. Plus, at worst, you're trading one generator for a dead survivor, which is a much bigger advantage.
I'm open to this being proven wrong in testing, but I genuinely feel that close games the way some people have described them aren't won by slowdown, especially not with someone dead. They're won by dismantling the team's efficiency by snowballing off a down.
-
@Rulebreaker said:
We're kinda mixed feelings on this as while we'd like something like this, especially if things got rebalanced, we got some minor worries.
First worry is the players themselves. The sheer riot it would cause, while hilarious and most likely deserved, may actually cause an exodus of players or cause more to double up on "scummy" (unfun) tactics such as 4 man slugs (we don't have the highest opinion on the players so this maybe paranoia) in a form of "protest". Many make empty threats about this but we are genuinely worried if something major like this tips that scale to actually do this.
Then there's the whole swinging to death on first hook survivors, which would suck to have your one regression gone because of that. We're less empathetic to the stacking killers but this is a realistic problem. Having your perk gone because someone is a child isn't going to feel good.
Last is some edge cases. Having pop gone when we'd actually need it in a close match but then having it gone because that last hook was a death hook would also be something.
Hmm, you bring up a fair point with that second one, I hadn't considered hook suicides.
That might be the spanner in the works that stops it from being viable until such time as hook suicides are addressed, however that ends up happening- if at all.
Though, equally, if you have someone out of the match that quickly, you kinda don't need slowdown that much. A 3v1 would be very difficult to win against even perkless killers unless they're really bad, so maybe that wouldn't be such a huge problem?
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763102#Comment_3763102
The end result of this nerf is to encourage the killer not to kill someone
as fast as possibleIssue is your change works even if killer did it as late as possiible… While those who did it as fast as possible are still going to win anyway.
You are trying to use your example only on perks that are made exactly in mind to work as incentive. Those are Pain res and Grim embrace.
I said before I would use your idea to nerf instead just nerfing numbers. That would be good change.
It doesn't really work for Surge, Eruption, Pop and whetever other perk you would want to put this on. Those perks were made to work whenever the specific trigger happens, it doesn't matter if that survivor was never hook, or is dead hook. Those perks never worked as incentive to target unique survivors.
So if you want them to be incentives, then make them this way. It's not really difficult to do in my opinion and is actually something that would help the game.
Let's say Surge starts at 4% default regression, whenever I hook unique survivor it gets by 2%, so after I hooked everyone, then total regression is going to be 12%, but if I kill my first hooked survivor, I am going to be stucked at 6% for rest of the game.
You could rework even basekit kick regression exactly same way. You put base value lower than current and maximum value higher and the value gets stuck at whatever you are when survivor dies. For basekit maybe something like 3% and 1% for each unique hooked survivor.
That's how you make an incentive.If the killer gets someone dead "as late as possible", and has been spreading their pressure enough that multiple other survivors have hook states on them and resources have been burned through, they no longer need slowdown. It's overkill at that point, they can win pretty handily just through continuing to play well.
As for everything else, you're just redesigning those perks to explicitly revolve around bouncing between survivors, when they'd be an incentive inherently if they deactivated when someone died. They're already good perks and people already want to use them, they would be incentivised to spread pressure if that's the way they'd get to keep using the perks.
I've given you examples of this before, perks incentivise doing the thing that activates them. Perks that activate on hook already, right now, with no changes, incentivise hooking. Perks that revolve around breaking pallets incentivise breaking pallets. Perks that deactivate when someone dies… incentivise not tunnelling.
I'm not even necessarily against some of those ideas, but what you're describing is ALSO an incentive. It's another WAY of incentivising people. What I'm describing is too.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763090#Comment_3763090
Is killer in worse situation than start of the game after killing a survivor because of your change?
Yes
The end result of this nerf is to get killer avoid killing a survivor.
And as I have stated before it fails at this anyway....
It least for me, your change would make me kill survivor faster than I do it now.
Right now I am trying to wait until 2 gens left to even try find them, so I expect to kill them at 1 gen left. I simply wouldn't wait that long with your change on most killers.
It's simply impossible to put this on all slowdown perks anyway. It doesn't make sense for No Way Out for example.
The end result of this nerf is to encourage the killer not to kill someone as fast as possible. You don't need slowdown perks active if one survivor's dead and everyone else is on death hook, pretty categorically- and while that specifically can be hard to do consistently, the concept scales easily.
What I actually want this to do is the following: The killer would pick Pain Res, maybe picking Deadlock or something as some minor passive slowdown, but otherwise picking other perks that aren't slowdown. The killer would then focus on using all their Pain Res tokens rather than tunnelling someone out, because tunnelling someone out would be wasting tokens, and then focus on spreading pressure to keep their other, lesser slowdown perk active.
What I also want is that any killer who does tunnel someone out is at least not so overbearingly oppressive as someone who still has three Pain Res + Grim Embrace tokens left to spend on an already severely weakened team.
I'm fully aware this won't fix tunnelling on its own, but it'd be an appropriate step to take to both weaken tunnelling and achieve the other desirable goals of lessening slowdown stacking and encouraging more healthy play from the killer.
Finally, yes, I agree it wouldn't apply to every slowdown perk, I said that in the main post. It'd definitely only even be something to discuss for generator slowdown perks, so healing slowdown and endgame perks wouldn't be affected here.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763083#Comment_3763083
Those perks don't do it now.
Your change only makes them worse. That's simply not an incentive.
You can try to fit it into situation so it seems like it, but that's not done by your change. Your change is 100% negative for the killer. There is nothing good for the killer.
I mean, yeah, the only effects are negative compared to before. It's a nerf, those aren't supposed to make the thing better, lol.
It's just not a nerf that punishes the killer. They have to bring the perk, knowing that it'll deactivate under certain conditions, and change how they play accordingly. That's an incentive, not a punishment. If it were a punishment, they'd have to end up worse than just not bringing the perk to begin with.
The end result of this nerf is an incentive to play a certain way and keep your perk active.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763062#Comment_3763062
Your change is what reverts it to default. That's worse state than what was at start of the game, which were 4 working perks.
Your change has nothing to do with current effects of those perks, it only makes them worse.
A few different perks (on both sides here, even) have deactivation conditions, and to my knowledge, none of them are punishments. There are also plenty of perks (again on both sides) that won't do anything unless you go out of your way to use them, and that also isn't a punishment just because you're being deprived of the perk's effects.
For all of those perks, you bring them knowing that they'll only do what you want under certain conditions, and you let that knowledge affect the way that you approach the game to try and maximise that value, either by activating the perks to begin with or by consciously avoiding their deactivation condition.
In other words, those perks incentivise you to play a certain way in order to get or maintain their effects. They don't punish you for not doing that, because the end result there is just that the perk doesn't do anything, it doesn't make you worse off than if you'd had an empty perk slot.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763061#Comment_3763061
Seems like I am not good enough at explaining such a basic topic to you, so let's see if AI is better at this...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2JSB06EBNB9M/screenshot-20240718-223215-904.png
I'm not gonna argue against a chatbot, dude.
Though, for the record, that chatbot is agreeing with me in the last point lmfao
-
@Royval said:
another post suggesting the killer should get punished for doing it’s objective… that’s like saying gens should be repaired 20% slower after 1 has finished.
Not a punishment, an incentive. You aren't put at worse than default, you're just returned to that default.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763053#Comment_3763053
In order for it to be a punishment, you would have to end up worse off by the effect, which you're not.
Not working perks is worse effect...
For incentive it would need increased effect for each survivor hooked before someone dying.
Your change is not incentive. Perks are exactly same effective as now, they works exactly same until you do something and suddenly stop working. That's a punishment for killing a survivor.
Pain res and Grim embrace are incentive as perks, because they do something for hooking unique survivors.
Other perks simply are not affected in any way by it. Only difference is if someone died or not.
It would be an incentive if you bring unique survivor hooking as % buff for each of current slowdown perks. That gives reason to hook other survivor.
It's an incentive if I want this change to happen.
It's a punishment if I want to avoid it.
Nope, not working perks is the default. If you didn't bring the perk, then you also wouldn't be getting their effect. Is that a punishment too?
You bring the perk because you want its effect, and because of that, you are incentivised to play a certain way in order to get that effect. If you bring, as a random example, the perk THWACK! but never actually kick a pallet or wall, you don't get the effect of the perk, because that perk incentivises kicking pallets or walls. You aren't being punished for not doing it, you're being incentivised to do it.
The incentive is the effect of the perk, it doesn't need to be stronger. You would already bring some of these perks because they're strong and desirable, and they would continue to be strong and desirable if you were incentivised to play well and play fair to maintain them.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763041#Comment_3763041
it'd be incentivising you to spread your pressure before someone dies if you want to keep using your perks.
You clearly do not understand, how incentive works.
It doesn't do anything different for me if I avoid it, it affects me negatively if I do it. That's a punishment.
And it's going to affect me no matter what, because you have to kill someone in this game to win.
can still be extremely oppressive when combined.
Like what?
Pop was nerfed a lot and so was pain res. That combination is nowhere near as strong it used to be. That's how math works, if you lower %, it's less effective.
Eruption/Surge is trash used together.
Other gen kicking perks were nerfed to the ground and then obliterated with 3-gen feature.
Even just blocking nerfs were nerfed and their time is limited, those can't really snowball.
What is your combination that is not going to trigger 3-gen feature, there won't be negative synergy like pop and deadlock and it's going to be so oppressive that it needs a nerf?
I understand how incentives and punishments work, yes. In order for it to be a punishment, you would have to end up worse off by the effect, which you're not. You're returned to default, because the effect of the perk is the incentive to play in a specific way.
Yes, you'll notice being returned to default in every game. You'll notice it when you don't need slowdown perks anymore because someone's dead. At least, you don't need slowdown perks at that point as long as you've gotten some work done and haven't focused all your attention on one survivor.
As to the combination topic, Pain Res + Pop is still very effective and oppressive. Less effective than "overwhelming" is still "very good". There's also combining Pain Res with Deadlock and Grim Embrace, both individually solid slowdown perks and also quite good when paired together. This, though, is where we'll take a stop and acknowledge the other half of the sentence, which is that they're especially oppressive when paired together with tunnelling. That's why I'm suggesting the change that I am, I think you shouldn't get to use these very strong perk combos if you tunnel someone out.
None of these combos are necessarily unbeatable, but that isn't the line, obviously. I laid out my three reasons why I think this would be a good idea, and I'm especially considering those three combined, not just individually- though it'd be good for those things individually too.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763012#Comment_3763012
I don't personally believe that kind of game would happen all that often, or at least not to the degree where it'll swing your games all too heavily.
If you don't believe it would make a difference, then there is no reason to do it.
Why nerf it when it's not needed and it wouldn't make a difference anyway in your opinion?
I don't believe my suggestion would affect games like the one described all that often. I do believe my suggestion would affect games where the killer has multiple slowdown perks and tries to tunnel someone out, which was the actual issue I aim to address.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763010#Comment_3763010
Stacking slowdown perks hasn't gone anywhere, though.
But it's way worse and combinations are more limited.
Just because it didn't completely go away, it's not a reason for another nerf...
they can be used in an extremely overbearing way
That's simply not true after 3-gen feature and all those nerfs.
this change would be to mitigate that without harming their ability to do their job.
Slow down perks are already just shadows of past.
It doesn't make sense to punish killer for killing someone, even more so when it can often be outside of killers control.
Current perks even combined are not that strong anymore.
Your change would make sense when you get them to strongest version and let 3-gen feature control them.
All that is definitely not true. Slowdown perks are still good and viable individually, and can still be extremely oppressive when combined.
I will concede that most of the problematic combinations involve Pain Res specifically, but rather than just nerf that perk down again and wait for the next problematic combo to arise, I'd rather see the devs do something to address stacking slowdown and tunnelling with them.
If you don't stack slowdown, you'd still have your two/three other perks. If you don't tunnel, you'd have all your slowdown for longer. If you're playing well and fairly, you shouldn't notice this change severely harming you.
As an aside, your perk deactivating is not a punishment, it's just part of how the perks work. It wouldn't be punishing you for killing someone, it'd be incentivising you to spread your pressure before someone dies if you want to keep using your perks.
-
@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762982#Comment_3762982
That's just wrong on many killers, there are many killers that don't chase quick enough to kill efficiency that much by 3 people. Trapper wouldn't even get the tunnel out quick enough to make it possible without slowdown to win the 1vs3, at least if the survivors know what they doing. His chases take longer than the survivors take to save and heal, so they still make progress and you have to get that progress down somehow after the down, normal kicks are just worthless in most cases and waste probably more time than they give.
It's just not viable to go for more than one survivor if they're not potatoes, you will lose you gens insanely quickly even with slowdown xD
If you're tunnelling someone out and you're not doing it quickly, that's why you're losing gens so rapidly. If you don't capitalise on that hook by using it as leverage to drag two survivors off gens (one in chase, one saving) and start up consistent pressure, and instead stick by the hook and start tunnelling as soon as the save happens, that leaves two to three survivors doing whatever they want. Which, of course… is gens.
Slowdown isn't going to be enough to save you with this amount of inefficiency, and it shouldn't be. Not only because tunnelling is bad for the game and needs to be removed, but because you shouldn't be able to overcome bad play with perks. The scenarios you're describing are why I'm suggesting this change, you shouldn't have access to slowdown after tunnelling someone.
-
@Akumakaji said:
Truth be told, this wouldn't be that bad. The only problem would be this games, that are the whole time on the razors edge, where you JUST barely manage to knock a gen down a bit to get the hook in and then speed back to defend that gen, etc. This games would completely fall to the survivors, because you would lose all of your defense tools.
I am not saying that every nerf had to be countered by an equal nerf to the other side, most of us can see past this, but the game is often too tightly balanced and I fear that we would lose the fun and tight games entirely with this change, if we don't reel in the survivors gen rushing abilities. I just have no good idea how so.
I don't personally believe that kind of game would happen all that often, or at least not to the degree where it'll swing your games all too heavily. Even in those scenarios, where it's the last generator and you otherwise would've been able to stave it off a little longer, it's not as though that makes a huge difference and you've still got the endgame + a dead survivor to try and leverage.
Of course, it'd have to be tested, but my gut instinct is this wouldn't swing things too heavily.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762963#Comment_3762963
None of current slowdown perks need nor deserve such a change tho.
I would be fine with it for prenerf pop and pain res. Not now
Stacking slowdown perks hasn't gone anywhere, though. Neither has tunnelling someone out and using your slowdown perks afterwards for an even bigger advantage.
It's not that any individual pick is itself strong enough to warrant a huge downside, it's that they all exist in a game where they can be used in an extremely overbearing way, and this change would be to mitigate that without harming their ability to do their job.
-
@KatsuhxP said:
If you'd only stack the strongest of the strongest perks that would maybe be okay even tho it would still be very weird because survivor perks also don't deactivate as soon as they hit 1-2 gens and all survivors are alive, but if I only use surge that doesn't do much on it's on and is for sure not too op it would be absolutely insane to deactivate it. The only way your idea could work at all is if it only gets deactivated if you stack more than 1 or 2 regression perks, everything else makes the perks just as useless as the version of ruin after the last nerf, they took that away again because they saw how useless the perk gets because of it.
And yet again (not regarded to your post but all posts that want to punish tunneling): A nurse or blight doesn't care about that punishment very much, a pig will absolutely die because of it, pig doesn't have the chase-speed to win through that and has to slowdown the game heavely, the traps are for sure not enough. Same with myers that is able to instadown but won't generate any preassure without slowdown.
I don't think that's true, because the time that Surge deactivates here is the time where you don't need slowdown perks anymore because there's an entire survivor no longer able to do generators no matter what.
That means that your average "one on hook, one in chase, one going for the save" scenario results in nobody doing generators. You just flat don't need slowdown perks when you're capable of making the generator efficiency hit 0% all through regular gameplay.
Plus, at this point, multiple survivors should be at least close to dead as long as you weren't tunnelling one person out, so you're not only in a position where gen efficiency is in shambles, you're also a lot closer to winning the game by default anyway.
Yes, weaker killers can use the help of slowdown perks… to help spread pressure and build towards dead survivors. Once someone's dead and others are on death hook, even Trapper doesn't need slowdown perks anymore.
-
@VomitMommy said:
I don't really think any of current slowdown perks should get this change without a buff, when many of them were already nerfed with 3-gen feature. Eruption and Surge most.
You don't need them at 3+ gens left, when someone dies. That's not really true with 1-gen left...
If you know you are going to lose your perks when someone dies, then you would slug like crazy, if you are in situation, where you need them.
Suddenly survivors giving up is an issue for both sides and you would definitely need to display hook counter to the killer.
I mean, something like Pain Res absolutely does not need a buff even with this hypothetical change because it's already the strongest thing killers have, and considering the 3-gen feature didn't have a meaningful effect on the performance of any slowdown perk save for maybe Eruption, I don't think they need changes because of that either. In the case of Eruption, it has its own problems that are largely independent of this change + is still good and viable even with those problems.
I am fine with killers slugging because that has answers on the survivor side, and the cases where it doesn't need changes anyway. I don't actually think that would be the answer, though, because I feel like killers would just try and swap between survivors to actually use their perks.
Even at one gen remaining, if you've been doing well, you don't need slowdown perks. If you're not doing well, slowdown perks won't save you, contesting the last gen with multiple survivors alive isn't worth it. You'd need to actually get someone killed, rather than stalling the gens. This change wouldn't really affect those situations, and in fact, might push some players into making better plays and winning more because of it.
-
@VomitMommy said:
I was thinking about it that this was supposed to be change for pain res instead of % nerf.
But for most perks you have to buff them a lot for this to be deserved change.
Some of them, I don't know about most.
Pain Res would be fine, Deadlock and Grim Embrace would be fine, Eruption would be fine. Something like Jolt may need changes and you could probably justify buffing Pop again if this change were implemented.
Most slowdown perks are worth running right now, and separately, you don't need slowdown perks after someone's died. It stands to reason that what's worth running now would continue to be worth running if they disabled at the point where you no longer need them.
-
I'm surprised so many players use that thumbs-up mechanic considering it doesn't actually do anything. It's almost heartwarming, in a way.
As an aside, I'd love to see survivor pickrates in the next stats dump. It's basically just a popularity contest considering the survivors themselves are just skins, and it'd be neat to see how the average picks in my matches stack up against the global pickrates.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762828#Comment_3762828
Gift of pain activates the debuffs on unhook so it's the most consistent way to apply those debuffs right now. The others tend to expire on hook nowadays.
I think all the debuffs are significant. You either heal and eat the repair speed debuff or don't and be vulnerable. That's good. Without mangled and Hemorrhage you just 99 your heal and do gens.
I feel like that's a really specific scenario. You have to be running Gift of Pain, they have to be running Resurgence, they have to be of the mind to not USE their perk and instead 99 a heal to just go crank gens, they have to also have time to react and finish their heal which is heavily dependant on both the killer you're playing and how you're playing in general, you have to then actually chase them at which point they're not doing gens anyway…
I don't know, that seems like an acceptable risk to me. Gift of Pain would be weak to a very specific setup on the survivor side that not many would be inclined to use and that could still result in GoP actually doing its job after a short delay anyway. I'm fine with that.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762816#Comment_3762816
Gift of pain also only activates twice on survivors and doesn't need a nerf.
Gift of Pain has TWO effects, and the Mangled it gives is the weaker of the two.
Resurgence in this hypothetical would make the perk a little weaker, but only kind of. Someone with Resurgence wants to heal and they want to heal quickly… which means they get hit with the repair speed debuff, the actually desirable effect for the killer, quicker as well.
-
I think that's an appropriate buff for Resurgence, but not so much Solidarity, especially since it would be kind of weird and awkward to code partial immunity to Haemorrhage into that perk and full immunity would obviously be way too much.
Resurgence, in my opinion, should clear most negative status effects (at least timed ones) on unhook. It only activates twice, and so it's allowed to be strong. With that buff it could go back down to 50% and be in a great spot.
-
I think Legion's pretty good, personally.
They're pretty versatile if you really drill down on their addons. They have a variety of solid builds that can catch survivors off guard, and while I don't think any build really makes them A tier material, they're still perfectly viable at most levels of play.
Plus, they're pretty fun!
-
I love Sable's little Morrigan-style head wings, so cute!
I like the Deep Rift repeating BP a lot more, though I do wish it was slightly more than just 5000. Still, a very welcome addition overall!
-
@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
Counterforce is in a weird spot, I do agree it can use some buffs. I like your ideas, I'd also think that it should reveal the closest Totem rather than the furthest.
Personally, I'm okay with it showing the furthest because that sorta contributes to why it's not just flat better than Small Game - Counterforce is good for dealing with all the totems across the trial, Small Game is better at finding that first totem, or any specific totem between the first and last.
Counterforce having weaker information than Small Game is acceptable because Small Game is the info-geared perk and Counterforce is the speed-geared perk. I just think that they should both give you the specific information of how many totems you/your team have cleansed, so that they're pure sidegrades to one another in totem builds.