jesterkind
jesterkind
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@totallynotamegmain said:
many people have stated about hexes spawning in survivors faces so I thought I should bring up this idea that has circulated before, that fact that if the killer hex is broken it’s gone forever, but the survivor boons are infinite and can only be limited by a killer sacrifice 25% of their build for shattered hope. What is everyone’s opinion on boons being infinite but hexes one time use?
Completely different mechanics with completely different intentions shouldn't be expected to function the same way, I see no issue with boons being infinite but hexes being one time use.
There are ways of helping hexes out that don't involve comparisons to boons, too.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
This would benefit survivors more and hurt killers more. You dont want more possibillitys for your hexes to be in the face of the survivors, also as the perks you mentioned that benefit survivors by just breaking dull totems, now they have even more possibillitys.
I dont think this is a good idea.You'd also hypothetically have more chances for your hexes to spawn away from survivors, though. Good hex spots do exist, and increasing how many spawn points are filled increases the chances any one of them will be a good hex spot.
Plus, like I said, if survivors are breaking dull totems more, they're spending time off generators more. Maybe this'll change with future perks, but the only "break a dull totem" perk that would actually offset that time investment is Overzealous, and that perk is already infinite if you pair it with a boon.
With a little bit of tweaking, the killer could still have totem-defence perks that help them in these scenarios. Undying would show them interacting with those dull totems, Thrill would need some number tweaks but could easily still slow them down, Retribution would still render them Oblivious, Dominance is presumably going to keep its basic effect once it hits live, and even Pentimento could still exist in some form. It would benefit killers too, not just survivors. Both sides would have more meaningful options.
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@Langweilig said:
Do killer objectives spawn at totems? If yes this would be the only problem. Otherwise they may need to change pentimento, but that‘s it. Overall I would like it.
It would also be cool if you could place your own totems as survivor at their spawns. Maybe as item or perk or something that you can only find on maps.
I don't think so? I think chests and totems have different spawn points, and it's chests that spawn in the same spots as killer objectives. I could easily be wrong about this, though, I'm not entirely sure.
I did also forget about Pentimento. Honestly, that perk should just be changed anyway.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
more bones for me?
Hey, you're gonna have to race me for them, I love cleansing bones.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781596#Comment_3781596
Of course it makes it easier for the Killer to tunnel. That they have more time to come back to the Hook before the Survivor is fully healed helps a lot. And being broken for longer might even counter things which can help against tunneling (e.g. We Will Make It).
(Same reason I think that the Mangled- and Exhaustion-Add Ons for Pig are incredible poorly designed since the promote tunneling for the Killer which should not tunnel)
But saiying that being broken for longer would not really have an effect is just wrong.
So, it's a buff to tunnelling because it prevents We'll Make It?
I'm not trying to be dismissive here, I'm trying to understand your argument. That's the only perk I can think of that'd let you heal in the killer's face, and it's a pretty specific scenario to claim is a blanket buff to tunnelling in general. Even with WMI you really shouldn't be trying to heal in the killer's face like that when they're trying to tunnel, it's not that quick.
Though, when you say that the killer has longer to return to the hook… no they don't? That survivor won't be under the hook because they can't be healed. This could possibly apply to Mangled - and there'd be some back and forth to that conversation too - but it definitely doesn't apply to Broken. A survivor coming off the hook Broken is running straight away, either the killer's going to tunnel them or they're not. Broken isn't going to make it easier after they've made the decision to tunnel.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781536#Comment_3781536
Do I really have to explain to you that a Survivor who cannot be healed for a longer time is a target for tunneling? Come on.
I mean. Yes?
Someone who's being tunnelled is being chased directly off hook, that's what tunnelling is. If they've just been unhooked (or, to be reasonable since travel time is a thing, within ten seconds or so of being unhooked), they almost certainly didn't have time to finish a heal. Broken isn't making it easier for the killer to tunnel them here, they were going to be injured in this chase either way. That's kinda why killers tunnel, the survivor is vulnerable and out of position so the chase is easier.
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No, I don't think that's an appropriate change.
I think if you want to nerf Windows - and that's kind of a shaky proposition right now since it really doesn't warrant it - a better nerf would be to shrink its range a little bit. Right now it has a range of 32 metres, that could hypothetically be changed.
Not much reason to do that right now, though.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
We dont need a buff to tunneling.
How's that a buff to tunnelling?
Surely if a survivor's being tunnelled, they didn't have time to heal anyway?
I think this'd probably be a harmless change, it's certainly worth testing. Maybe have Mangled and Haemorrhage pause as well? It could get out of hand, but I think it has enough legs to test.
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@Firellius said:
I think I once saw someone suggest that map offerings, when played by survivors, should reduce the chance of that map appearing, while a killer's map offering remains the way it is now.
Wouldn't it be better suited the other way around? I feel like killers want to avoid certain maps way more frequently than survivors do. Billy wanting to avoid Lery's, Trapper wanting to avoid Eyrie, I feel like that happens more frequently than a survivor not wanting a specific map.
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To the wider question, I think either would be appropriate, but I do like the common idea here of grouping more maps under the same offering. That way you're burning an offering for an increased chance, not a guarantee. Lowering the % chance down from 99 to something substantially lower would also be a good way of handling this.
Also, fully agreed with anyone asking to change the rarity. I don't know how to fix this in a way that doesn't just shift the problem over to the other rarities, but it's so hard to find other green offerings… maybe give map offerings their own rarity instead? idk.
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While I do think it's worth pointing out these numbers can't really be verified and wouldn't be good proof of anything even if they were, I do like little anecdotes like this, they're interesting.
This also isn't that unsurprising of a result, frankly. If this player is good with Trapper and they're playing pub matches instead of coordinated and organised matches against the same opponents, they're going to be able to perform pretty well, no killer is unplayable in the current state of DBD until you start skewing the scenario towards top players and comp matches.
Though, something I find interesting here and want to bring up: I don't think "random builds" is as much of a downside as some think, here. Trapper is a versatile killer, he can make use of pretty much every perk archetype there is - he's a basic attack killer, he has a terror radius, he chases at normal speed and has to respect resources, he even has a way of protecting hexes. Whatever build this user rolled, there's a really high chance they got something Trapper was perfectly capable of making use of. There aren't that many terrible perks and their killer choice didn't make any otherwise-useful perks redundant or inoperable, so the random perks probably helped more than they hurt.
It's a neat thing to think about. I'd be tempted to do the same thing myself, honestly, though I'd probably allow myself addons for convenience lol. It'd be fun to try and make use of whatever I rolled, kinda like Chaos Shuffle in miniature.
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@Musxussu575 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780107#Comment_3780107
If they weren't the same strength, they wouldn't have a similar pick rate. Players exchanged the loss of one meta perk for the spamming of another.
I mean, setting aside that pickrate and strength aren't inherently tied to one another, it is worth pointing out that they don't actually have similar pickrates.
Official stats from February showed Windows of Opportunity with a 32% pickrate. NightLight, while not entirely reliable, currently shows it with a 36% pickrate.
The June 2022 Developer Update, the one that preceded patch 6.1.0, showcased Dead Hard with a pickrate of 70%. Granted, that percentage was for high MMR games specifically, but still, that's a huge discrepancy.
Windows just flat out does not have a similar pickrate to old Dead Hard, and it definitely doesn't have anything close to a similar strength.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779769#Comment_3779769
I never mentioned skill. Your question was relating to when people were last happy with her; so I answered.
Their question was when OP was last happy with her, and OP directly talks about how it used to take skill but doesn't now.
I have the same question for OP as well. To my recollection, nothing about what they're talking about has ever changed, let alone recently.
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@I_mean_yeah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780186#Comment_3780186
"Next time you're in that area, and there's a deadzone on BOTH sides, WoO won't help them at all and they
willrun into a deadzone."No they won't, cause they'll just activate their exhaust perk or take a hit and jet off into a different area that has pallets, survivors aren't that dumb as you wanna make them seem to be
"The boring gameplay you're describing is just… looping. What else are you expecting survivors to do?"
I'm expected to be rewarded for the time spent breaking pallets, and that reward usually comes in survivors going to the areas not knowing that the pallets are gone, that happens a lot with survivors that are not running WoO, even the good ones. WoO just promotes mindless gameplay, such mindless and annoying gameplay with the only counter being to play anti-loop killers which are arguably the strongest.
The blindness perks all mostly suck, the xeno perk got nerfed into oblivion, and 30 seconds of blindness isn't enough, as you need to find that survivor first, even when you find him, he already has an idea about where the pallet is, cause he had the WoO before you blinded him and untill you break that first pallet, the 30 seconds of blindness are gone
Third seal is a hex that can get easily cleansed, Septic Touch is laughable, and Mindbreaker has the same problem, the survivor alredy has an idea about what to do next if you come, cause he had WoO before the blindness effect, and it will expire until you break that first pallet
There's basically no good counter to it, except for some killer addons
If we're accepting that there are still pallets up and that survivors have the ability to get to them, WoO literally does not do anything.
You have to choose the scenario. Is there a deadzone for them to run to, or isn't there? Without WoO, if they see there's a deadzone because they ran into it, why wouldn't they do what you're describing and activate an Exhaustion perk, or take a hit and jet off? Survivors aren't dumb but they don't have unlimited freedom, either. They are not going to be able to just freely position themselves wherever they want if they're already in a deadzone, and if they are, the deadzone already doesn't matter whether they're running WoO or not.
You go on to describe that Blindness isn't good enough because survivors saw the pallets before the chase started. In that case, what exactly is stopping them from keeping track of those pallets without Windows? Competent and skilled survivors have a plan for where to run when the killer approaches them regardless of what perks they're running.
The gameplay may be mindless. I think that's a little bit dismissive, but I'd understand where that descriptor could apply. What it isn't is different. Survivors don't need Windows to make use of the resources they actually have available, and Windows doesn't save them if there are no resources. All it does is prevent the occasional mistake.
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@I_mean_yeah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780106#Comment_3780106
The fact that they won't run into a deadzone is a massive thing by itself. Even with comms, it's pretty hard to pinpoint the exact location where you broke a pallet, and when there's even more pallets wasted, it's harder to keep track. WoO simplifies that 100 times
I've seen people shitting on this perk every single time i complain about it yet almost everyone is using it, why are you trying to water it down so much? It definitely makes a big difference, otherwise it wont be this popular
Every killer without any anti-loop has to play pallet break simulator half the game, because survivors with WoO will go to a loop, run around it a couple times, and end up dropping the pallet, wait for you to break it, then run to the next one and repeat, it promotes such boring gameplay.
I'd rather get hit 100 times by Head on, or be blinded by Flashbangs, or be bamboozled by Lucky Star, at least there i'm getting outplayed with things I don't expect. But whenever I see a survivor doing the typical WoO movement, I just sigh, then I try to switch targets and see the same pattern, knowing this other survivor also has WoO
It's just an entirely pathetic perk
They do run into deadzones. They just don't do it accidentally.
Consider this scenario: A survivor is being chased, and they can run either left or right. To the left, a deadzone. To the right, a loop with a pallet still up or a decent window. The survivor cannot see these resources (or lack thereof) but must make a choice.
WoO just stops them from running left. Next time you're in that area, and there's a deadzone on BOTH sides, WoO won't help them at all and they will run into a deadzone.
For the record, I don't run Windows, because I'm okay risking an accidental deadzone so I can run perks that'll actually do something for me. This isn't hypocrisy, my position is completely consistent. To speak to everyone else running it, though, Windows is a perfect example of why you shouldn't conflate pickrate with strength. Windows barely does anything… but it's nice. You can get 90% of Windows' value by just keeping an eye out between chases, but it's nice and it's convenient to not have to do that. Nothing changes for your efficiency or effectiveness, you just get a little bit of mental stack eased. It's a nice, convenient, middle-of-the-pack perk that people enjoy running even though it doesn't do much.
The boring gameplay you're describing is just… looping. What else are you expecting survivors to do? They're not going to not do that if they're running different perks or if Windows gets nerfed. They're still going to be running to the resources on the map, they're still going to be running around those resources, and they're still going to be dropping the pallet and moving on at the end of it. That's how survivor gameplay works.
If there's some alternative I'm missing that you're suggesting here, by all means let me know, I like to try and understand people's positions as best I can.
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@Musxussu575 said:
"[E]veryone is spamming it, no matter if they have 20 hours of game time, or 5k hours."
Finally, someone said it!
WOO is the new Dead Hard - the meta obsession that everyone bandwagons onto. What people don't realize is that it's a crutch perk. That is, people who have used it for so long are effectively cursed to have a 3-perk build because the fourth always has to be WOO. If they were to remove WOO from their load-out, they would fall apart, almost as if addicted. They literally cannot play without it.
Run Hex: The Third Seal and blind everybody. They'll drop everything and move heaven and earth to find that totem. They're definitionally addicted.
Players are asking for the Dead Hard and Boon: Circle of Healing treatment - WOO's blatant overuse is begging for it to be changed.
FYI, I'm a solo-queue survivor main.
The difference being that Dead Hard was the single most broken perk in the game's history, and CoH was very easy to make extremely overpowered with basic synergies, whereas Windows just tells you when teammates have used resources.
Their only point of similarity is pickrate, they're not even close to the same strength.
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I promise you, almost anything a survivor can do with Windows, they can do without it. The only thing it'll do is safeguard them from running blindly into a deadzone because their teammates used the resources nearby.
Take note of the phrasing, by the way. It doesn't prevent them from running into deadzones, it just makes sure they know it's happening when they're forced into one. They won't run into one accidentally with Windows.
Nerfing Windows really, truly, honestly won't do much. That's not to say it won't necessarily warrant a change on the grounds of perk variety, but in terms of strength, it barely does anything. It's just nice to have, and helps a lot in solo queue. From the killer perspective, I'd rather everyone be running Windows instead of a perk that'll actually harm me.
Also, "M1 Killers" is not a group of killers that are all suffering in a unified and shared way. That is a group that contains both Trapper and Freddy, some of the weakest killers, and Pinhead and (arguably) Plague, two of the strongest, with other M1 killers being anywhere in between. It's a pet peeve of mine when people act like "M1 Killers" is synonymous with "Weak Killers" and that they're all also supposedly weak for the same reasons, that's not true.
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@Beaburd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779472#Comment_3779472
Yeah I concede common med-kits are actually useful, but I don't know about toolboxes.
A common toolbox just gives ~5 seconds worth of generator progress, and chests always take 10 seconds to open. So if you get a toolbox, you're always losing time. Even if you get and hit 2 Great skill checks in those 5 seconds, that's just 7 seconds of time saved for a minimum 10 second investment. I just can't see that as worthwhile, so I always consider it a consolation prize for trying, but still means my effort was wasteful and meaningless.
In fact, all toolboxes aside from Commodious give a return that's lower than the cost of the investment. Even then, Commodious with add-ons gives 10.7 seconds of gen charges, which is just the cost of opening the chest so you only break even on the investment there. Still a loss for you if you took at least 1 second worth of time to travel to and from that chest, which is almost always going to be the case.
Concerning Rare items, I actually like maps for the points which is why I didn't mention it; but yeah, they are pretty useless otherwise thanks to their range and limited tracking potential (just gens). Totally agree that keys and maps should be revamped too though in hindsight. I'm hoping they just do a total rehaul of every item at this rate, even if some changes are less significant than others (med-kits).
Anyway love the points, agree with most! Maybe even all, as toolboxes acting as consolation prizes could be fine as well short-term. Just as long as there's some items (preferably unique) in chests that are exciting, rewarding, and satisfying to get and use.
I think the big thing to remember with toolboxes is that, while the repair speed on lower rarities doesn't really break even, all the toolboxes are perfectly capable of sabotaging a hook. Not as fast or as often as some other toolboxes, naturally, but getting a brown or yellow toolbox always represents an opportunity to create value and justify the time investment. A single sabotage at normal sabotage speed can swing games, hypothetically.
Toolboxes right now, while they absolutely need addressing from a strength and skewed-rarity standpoint in general, kinda slot in where I was talking about the acceptable outcomes for chests. Right now, someone might groan if they get a brown toolbox when they wanted a medkit, but the toolbox does something and it's feasible that a reasonable player would be able to make use of it.
That being said, I agree, a full item overhaul would be a very welcome change. Honestly, that alone would go a fair ways towards helping chests.
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The bad rolls for chests aren't the brown and yellow items, those items are just a fairly low baseline for item strength. All the brown and yellow items - by which I mean, the medkits, toolboxes, and one flashlight that this group represents - actually do something and could easily be considered a win state when opening a chest; it's not hard to imagine someone searching a chest hoping for a medkit to heal themselves, at which point the brown medkit is exactly what they're looking for and they wouldn't be served in any meaningful way by getting something of higher rarity.
The bad item rolls are exclusively greens and arguably above: It's the base Map, which only tracks generators, and the Broken Key- arguably the other keys too, but at least the other two open hatch, whereas a Broken Key you get from a chest literally doesn't do anything. Those are the actual fail states when rolling the dice on chests, not the baseline of decent items.
This is my biggest problem with your suggestions, which are fairly reasonable otherwise- the actually unappealing items that people don't want when searching chests aren't being addressed at all here. Medkits and toolboxes are the only items you're proposing changes for, but they're also already the only items people actually want.
If we're tackling chest problems at their core, and we're doing that by changing items, we need to change Maps and Keys before we look at Medkits and Toolboxes. They're the underwhelming and sloppily designed items, not the two that function perfectly fine. We can only consider a chest overhaul a success if a reasonable survivor would be okay with getting rolled any item in there- obviously it's fine if someone was hoping for a specific item and groans when they get anything else, but if everyone universally groans when they roll The Item That Literally Does Nothing, we've still got a big problem no adjacent changes can fix.
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They've been buffing a ton of perks that aren't related to generators at a faster rate than they've been nerfing anything, though. The number of viable perks has been going up, not down.
They only nerf stuff that is obviously overtuned, for the most part. They may fumble those specific changes occasionally, but to claim that it's just anything useful getting nerfed (and that every one of those nerfs is a sledgehammer completely destroying the perk too, for that mater) is to be wilfully blind to how many options there currently are.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Sorry this took 3 minutes to post. Apparently I got hit by the anti-spam system the forum has when I wasn't trying to spam. Anyway...
In terms of things that are most likely to kill the game, this is one of them.
That seems a bit dramatic. What makes you think it's going to be that bad?
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773625#Comment_3773625
The issue is that an old Purple Medkit could save 32s basekit (2 self heals at 32 possible gen seconds total, vs 64 possible gen seconds from 2 altruistic heals), and now it is saving 8s from a self heal (24 gen seconds self vs 32 gen seconds altruistic). That is 25% of it's former glory in terms of time saved. Now while I agree that med-kit nerfs were necessary, I don't think they should have gotten a 75% nerf. At the very least they should have kept the Purple's skill check bonus, like something.
I would consider anything over a 50% nerf butchered. I think the issue though is whether or not it was justified, which again medkits needed nerfs as you say and I agree, they were overpowered. All of this though is missing the forest for the trees, when we consider the 'best' toolbox does an 8s timesave from purple, or 10.66s from the one Green.
For the record, I do disagree with the proposed toolbox nerf up there. The better way of nerfing toolboxes to make them worthwhile but not OP is to replace the gen repair speed entirely, maybe with something like protection from regression. Current brown toolboxes aren't worth it for gen repair, but a Commodious with the right addons and perks is completely broken, that kind of variance is very tough to fix just by tweaking numbers.
Regarding medkits, it's a little strange to consider a change "butchering" an item when that item is still very strong afterwards. It's just a little odd to look at something as powerful as medkits and say they're butchered, I don't think anyone who points that out is necessarily being irrational and emotional.
Y'know, mathematically it looks like a brutal change that diminished them entirely. In reality, they're still really good. So, the maths alone can be a little misleading.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773582#Comment_3773582
The complaints about which specific word used to describe a massive nerf is meaningless semantics to the greater point. When I can show things side by side and they are throwing them out because "Your math isn't relevant.", then they are showing it is because it is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.
I mean, not necessarily?
"Butchered" implies that the massive nerf resulted in the thing in question - medkits, here - being actually like. Bad, or terrible, or not worth running. It's worth contesting that considering that medkits are still very good and the second strongest survivor item.
Your maths aren't irrelevant, as the user you're arguing with says, but they are misleading, because they miss that the previous iteration of medkits you're comparing to were overpowered. They took a big hit, yes, but they went from "game breaking" to "decent". The word "butchered" would be an odd one to use for that outcome.
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@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772842#Comment_3772842
Hillbilly is an S tier Killer and completely boxes out every other Killer in the game apart from Nurse. Some of his addons, my personal favorite being the engravings, can turn him into a nightmare for most players who haven't played him and don't know how to counter him. With Overdrive and the .25 extra seconds they gave for him to curve you can nearly curve a complete 180 making him extremely powerful in many scenarios.
There is zero chance they aren't going to nerf him in some way, it's just not possible.
Obviously it's likely to be a nerf, but it's also obviously premature to act like it's a nerf that'll completely kill him and push him back down to the C tier, as you're doing here.
We don't know what they're doing yet. It could be a tiny basekit nerf and some addon reworks for all we know.
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@Langweilig said:
The thing I‘m worried about is when you see them over the whole map shinning like a star. This way it would be unfair.
To be fair, you're supposed to be able to see scratch marks across the map. That and crows being disturbed are the main ways killers have of noticing survivor positions at basekit.
The basekit solution on the survivor end, if you're trying to hide, is to not run or to have LoS blockers between you and the killer. Otherwise, you should expect that the killer might notice you and come to chase you.
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It's an interesting group of perks to have picked, for sure. To go over some predictions or hopes…
Leverage: I suspect what they'll do is just increase the timer, and that wouldn't be worthless but it's not what I'd want. I want Leverage's timer to only start when the survivor is unhooked.
Crowd Control: This one's a very interesting one because CC is honestly pretty good. I think the most likely outcome is to have it effect all windows in a radius after a fast vault, rather than just the window that was vaulted, but I'm not sure. I could also see it being fully reworked to function like Plaything, where every window is blocked for that one survivor until they cleanse their associate totem, but that might be too much.
Blood Rush: My prediction is that it'll get the Plot Twist treatment, IE, it'll be available once at the start of the trial and then once again when you're on death hook.
Pharmacy: I've got a whole post about what I want done to Pharmacy! It's not even the only one in that vein, so I hope it's legitimately on the table.
Scene Parter & Shadowborn: Absolutely zero clue. No idea.
All in all, I'm excited to see what these changes end up being!
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772842#Comment_3772842
But we know how they like to overkill any killers who are even remotely decent, of course it's a doom and gloom
When was the last time that even happened?
Like, as in, the killer was both actually very good and ended up terrible afterwards? That's a high bar and I can't think of the last time a change met it. I'm sure some people would be inclined to move the goalposts and point to like, Knight, even though he doesn't meet the first criteria, but even then it's not like it happens often.
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Seems a bit premature. We don't even know what's happening yet lol
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@NerfDHalready said:
to all the "just don't camp lol" people that filled the thread: i'm about to explain very basic macro. this change isn't only a hindrance to campers just like ds buff wasn't a hindrance and annoyance only to tunnelers.
ahem. first, hooked survivors provide ✨pressure✨ because now one person has to leave their gen to head for the unhook, affecting tempo of the game. now that they have more time, they don't have to make quick decisions and take quick actions, it's harder to force their hands after a wrong call.
second, now people can go for "gens before frens" for longer, sticking to their gens and hide from the killer with less of a rush to get the unhook.
third, sometimes you have to think ahead to get an unhook against a camping (how dare they) or non camping killer. you have got to pre emptively heal one person so they can get the trade, especially against a legion or plague. for example if you give free unhooks against non cleansers as plague you are throwing. now they have more time to realize and correct their mistake.
i'm starting to think your ideal match is against a killer that hooks one person and starts looking for hiding rats, giving free reset despite not being able to find anybody else. at the same time they aren't allowed to tunnel (a person easier to find due to being injured), or hold 3 gens. they can't rely on auras to find people because of distortion and aura perks are cringe that show killers have 0 tracking skills. they shouldn't make strategic calls and capitalize on mistakes, they should just spend the entire match looking for hiding survivors and eat pallets.
The next step in understanding killer macro is to consider the wider game happening after these snapshots.
So, when you have a hook, that hooked survivor provides pressure because someone has to react to deal with them. You are 100% correct on that point, and just to drill down on it further, we'll define 'pressure' in this conversation as "survivors taking actions other than generator repair as a response to killer actions".
To take the next step, we'll ask the following question: While one survivor is peeling away to get the save, thus providing pressure, what is the killer doing?
The answer is simple: Generating more pressure.
To maximise the pressure that you get from a hook, you would necessarily go and chase a third survivor, leaving only one to do generators. If survivors stick on their gens and neglect the save until it becomes more pressing, you have more time to actually gain something out of the chase you're in. In other words, the survivors choosing to "gens before frens" are now accepting a risk. If their chased teammate goes down before they leave to get the save, the killer has the upper hand and will continue to push that advantage by not letting the team reset.
The ideal match obviously does not involve killers wasting time looking for survivors. The ideal match here - from the killer perspective, mind you - involves already knowing where survivors are due to a combination of info perks and just keeping track of where you see survivors during a chase, and going straight to them after a hook. If you, as a killer, find yourself needing to stick by a hook because you can't find survivors quick enough, that's a flaw in your gameplay that you can and should be working to correct.
Distortion exists but it can't be used as an excuse here. There are non-aura tracking perks that aren't affected by Distortion, and there are aura perks/combos that counter Distortion, not the other way around— on top of, not to be too blunt here, base game tracking tools and remembering where survivors were when you last saw them.
Be active. Generate pressure. You're going to be left behind as the devs address every way of circumventing that otherwise.
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Sable, for survivor- though before she came out it would've been Claudette too, for original survivors, so I feel a kinship with you there!
For killer, I don't buy skins for the most part and I admittedly don't even play her that much, but conceptually and narratively I adore Susie from the Legion, especially after their comic. Skull Merchant is also on that list for the same reasons + because I really like playing against her most of the time, and when playing killer myself I love Clown and Trapper- if I don't know what else I want to do but I know I want to play killer, it's Clown, every time.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772710#Comment_3772710
I misunderstood the question. I mentioned Freddy as an example of a killer who underwent a complete rework of their powers. I didnt mean to compare SM to any iteration of Freddy. Im just stating that SM can or should get a rework because it has happened before
And no, theres no such a thing as twitter tantrum. If you like to play as her or against her, fine, good for you, but it doesnt mean everybody else should be like you.
That's already happened to Skull Merchant, though.
Arguably, it's happened twice. I'd count her PTB-to-Live changes as being Freddy tier too.
In fact, SM is the example of doing Freddy tier reworks and it working, strangely enough. She has zero of her original problems and her new problems are generally fixable without a whole rework as well as just not being that huge in the grand scheme of things. This on top of her becoming skill expressive and interactive on both sides, even, moreso than she was before.
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The amount of posts with this kind of sentiment is baffling to me. We've known since the beginning it would be temporary and we've known since the beginning it'd be coming back after they've iterated on it, there's no reason to think either of those things would be changing.
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To answer the core question, as much more as it takes for camping and tunnelling to stop being problems.
There's something else I'd like to comment on, though. In this thread and in others, I've seen people say things like "You don't have time to wander around the map looking for fresh survivors to chase", and that's always struck me as a little bit of a self report, not to be too rude here.
What if you just go straight to the survivors because you already know where they are, through info perks or good basekit tracking? Kinda seems like the thing losing you games is actually a lack of knowledge regarding survivor location, not that you've left the hook. That should be a good thing for you to hear, though! It's something you can improve at without needing the game to change, and it's not even that hard to do, either.
Actually spreading pressure is a vastly better tactic than camping out a hook stage, because it slows down gen repair innately. Something that weakens camping won't affect killers who know how to leverage that fact, not even players picking weaker killers.
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Some curious stuff on there. I'm especially interested in finding out what they're doing with Crowd Control, that's a pretty good perk at the moment so buffing it might get a bit scary. Then again, it is a hex, so maybe that's appropriate still…
Obviously, I'm crossing my fingers that the Skull Merchant changes are sensible, there are a good number of things they could tweak that'd actually be useful but you wouldn't see any of those celebrated by the community…
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771875#Comment_3771875
What killers do you play the most? Because with Skull Merchant, I absolutely believe you can win with no gens slowdown, considering how much survivors either give up completely, DC, let themselves die on hook, or stop playing seriously entirely.
As you said yourself, if survivors are the objective (what does this mean?¿?) , in order to kill them fast, there's no better way than killing a survivor ASAP to force the game into a 3v1. Aka tunneling.
I don't get to play Skull Merchant often, because of the survivor behaviour you're referring to. Not that it makes a difference since what I'm describing applies to every killer, but the ones I play more often are Clown, Trapper, Nemesis, and now Unknown a little bit. Of those, I only consistently put slowdown perks on Trapper, and even then you only really need one.
Survivors being the objective seems pretty straightforward to me, not sure what your confusion is there. You win by killing survivors, ergo, survivors are your objective. We're also not talking about tunnelling here so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772195#Comment_3772195
the killer is reacting to the survivor play. the killer does not get to decide what survivor play is. there is suppose to be inherit trades offs between rushing generators and hook-states. Refer to @Zakon05 post that further goes into detail regarding this.
when a killer entirely leaves the hook to commit to separate chase, there is no world where a survivor will ever hit second stage with 70 seconds. An efficient team never lets survivors hit second stage in current 60 seconds while the killer is away from the hook. It is not like hook timer goes 1.5x faster or anything when the killer is away from the hook. If survivor are so concern about killer camping hook timers, why does the survivor not use Reassurance? The 10 second change is giving survivor a free mini reassurance with no downside. it is global effect.
The killer is not getting any free base perks in this update. I respect disagree with survivor getting free reassurance.
…Why would the survivor ever hit second stage? That's not an expectation at all, that's not what the win state for the killer is here.
The survivor is absolutely going to be saved before they hit second stage. That's true now, and it'll continue to be true after the ten seconds are added. The survivor is supposed to be saved before they hit second stage.
What the killer should be aiming for here is to already be close to a second down before the survivor is unhooked, and even if they don't achieve that they're still keeping up pressure if they're forcing three survivors off generators at once, even if only briefly.
I'm not sure where this idea that a survivor should be hitting second stage if you go chase someone else came from, but it's definitely wildly off the mark.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772185#Comment_3772185
the longer hook time delays the rush to need save the survivor. they can stay on generators longer before doing the hook trades. you can read dev post but it is somewhat implied for survivor to get 10 extra seconds for free to do the generator. in my opinion, survivor should be on the backfoot when killer gets the hook. survivor should only be at advantage when nobody is hooked. that is why it is risk to leave hook for killer because you might land up with a late hook. the change also buffs mobility killers and punishes immobile killers because mobile killer are able to leave the hook and comeback the hook quicker. Most people agree that mobile killer tend to be stronger on average so why are we punishes weaker killer archetype? why does hag for example need +10 second nerf on hooks? Why is trapper being punished? so on.
They only all get ten extra seconds to do generators if you're camping, which is how it should work.
The killer shouldn't be rewarded for just standing in place. If you want your hook to matter, you should definitely have to keep actively playing the game and push your advantage yourself.
I'll say it again, because it really does matter: If survivors choose to ignore a hook and prioritise generators, that CAN absolutely put them on the back foot, if YOU make that happen. What you're describing, where a killer is advantaged while there's someone on the hook, is already how it works - the killer just has to appropriately react to the situation and not stand in place.
Survivors are only advantaged while someone's on the hook if the killer is being passive and trying to defend that hook instead of pushing their advantage. In other words, passive play makes your advantage disappear. In pretty much any other kind of game, if you react to an opening by turtling up, you don't get to benefit from that opening. In a fighting game you'd need to actually punish a whiff and start a combo, in a shooter you'd have to pop up and shoot, etcetera.
This is only a punishment for killers who play passively, not to any particular archetype.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772168#Comment_3772168
Can I ask here briefly, you've said it a few times, what on earth does "hook regression" mean? I'm legitimately not sure what you mean by this, so I'd appreciate some clarification.
the time it takes to go between hook states. there is first hook, second stage and death hook. I am refering to 60 seconds of the timer between hook stage 1 and stage 2. this includes stage 2 to stage 3.
I do not agree with the change. it looks like freebie for survivors where they successful nerf killer perks and now get longer hook stages to further entice generator efficiency.
Ah, the hook timer, got it.
The thing about the hook timer is that it rarely actually matters for you, as the killer. Your expectation should be that the survivor who is currently hooked will be rescued, and it's just a matter of how much damage you can do to the team's efficiency on generators before that happens.
That's why it's better for you that they're stuck on there longer. You aren't milling around waiting for them to be unhooked, you're going and chasing survivors. What you get out of this situation is enhanced by the hooked survivor dangling there for longer, because you're the thing that damages generator efficiency. The more survivors you have out of the action at any given moment, the better, generally speaking.
It's not a freebie for survivors because, frankly, if they make any decisions based on the timer being longer, they're putting themselves at extreme risk of the killer dismantling their gen efficiency and putting them at a time deficit because they need to scramble to reset. You could hypothetically call this change a noob trap enticing players into making bad decisions, if you wanted to be dramatic.
Their generator efficiency in this scenario is up to you. Will you camp and let them use those ten extra seconds? Or will you go disrupt them and generate pressure by chasing? They don't automatically just get ten extra seconds on generators without being interrupted, because it's your job to interrupt them.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772154#Comment_3772154
I mean, sure, but the thing that puts you on the back foot is you failing to play well in your next chase, not the fact that you left the hook. Leaving the hook is the default expectation and a requirement to play killer well, it's not a risk.
default expectation. why is it default expectation for killer to play for the fun of survivors? the dev should be rewarding killer to leave on their own accord to acquire hook-states. right now they're punishing the killer.
Camping also does not give you the same rewards as playing aggressively. Remember, camping gives you practically nothing if survivors just all make the simple decision to stick on separate generators instead of running into you. Playing aggressively doesn't require your opponents to make a boneheadedly stupid move, it just gives you that value as a reward for your gameplay.
it gives you the ability to pressure hook regression. In other words, regressing hook is more likely. your conclusion is missing component is killer gameplay.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BVO6XDCPWBQA/image.png
the reason why they are doing this change according to the post is to combat camping but increase time to generator is related to killer's generator defence perks being nerfed. we nerfed generator defence perks and traded additional time to generators. this means that either generator defence perks now need to be buffed or camping should the stay the same. Pop goes weasel should go to 15% max generator progression per kick and Pain res should be usable an unlimited amount times for total of 14%. alternatively, the perks stay weaker and killer gets advantage through camping.
It's the default expectation because of the second thing I said: It's a requirement for playing killer well. It's not actually just about survivor fun, it's a combination of the fact that you need to spread pressure to play well - so the game's mechanics should nudge players towards learning that fact - and the fact that the killer sticking in one place and not engaging with the game is fairly obviously bad for the game's health.
Can I ask here briefly, you've said it a few times, what on earth does "hook regression" mean? I'm legitimately not sure what you mean by this, so I'd appreciate some clarification.
Moving on, the increase to generator time wasn't a strict "we nerfed regression perks so we increased gen times" trade, most evidenced by the fact that several regression perks were BUFFED in that patch. It was as they said it was back in that patch's developer update: To make generator regression as a class of perks feel less necessary, while still being an option. It was part of a cohesive suite of changes that all existed to support each other, with the goal of encouraging players to generate their slowdown through their gameplay, not just from their perks.
Considering that, there's no reason to start talking about regression perks in relation to this change. We're not trading anything away with this new change because we were never meant to be camping, and camping isn't necessary to win right now either.
Even if we were to assume that the increase to generator time was a strict trade back in 6.1… camping still doesn't enter this equation. The trade was to give you more time to create basekit slowdown via spreading pressure, not to let you camp more. Even if we were to go a step further and assume that the trade didn't work out that way, the answer is still not to let killers camp, and camping would still need to be addressed— and that's a huge if, to be clear, the trade worked just fine in reality.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772141#Comment_3772141
Getting an early down makes that tremendously less necessary, even, that's kind of the best case scenario for the killer, you do not need to try and force an unreliable crutch when you're already doing really well. I'd appreciate some elaboration on what you mean here?
It is simple. the survivor played chase poorly. Me leaving the hook to chase other survivors is inherent risk towards failing the chase. If survivor outplays me, the person that is on hook will get unhooked and i am back with no hooks and no pressure. that is called being on backfoot. Killer playing aggressively is constantly on the backfoot because they're not capitalize off any hook pressure. they're relying on their ability to brute force every chase which can work if you win every single chase very quickly.
My question is why I should be playing on the backfoot with low rewards and high risk. If camping gives same rewards as playing aggressively… why wouldn't you be camping? right? that is whole issue. generator defence makes more rewarding for the killer to brute force chases and get rewards for said brute force chases. With rewards being so low and risk being high, it puts killer in lose/lose where they could lose from playing aggressive and they will lose for playing defensive.
Camping is dull, not strong.
Something that is not strong does not need nerfs. The dev do not agree with this sentiment hence they are nerfing camping. You cannot tell me otherwise. 10 extra second on doing generator is 10 extra second doing gens across 3 gens. It does not sound like much but every second does counts in this game.
I mean, sure, but the thing that puts you on the back foot is you failing to play well in your next chase, not the fact that you left the hook. Leaving the hook is the default expectation and a requirement to play killer well, it's not a risk.
Camping also does not give you the same rewards as playing aggressively. Remember, camping gives you practically nothing if survivors just all make the simple decision to stick on separate generators instead of running into you. Playing aggressively doesn't require your opponents to make a boneheadedly stupid move, it just gives you that value as a reward for your gameplay.
Remember, again, the PRESSURE from a hook comes from occupying MULTIPLE survivors. Camping your first hook gives you ZERO pressure if the survivors all just stick on their generators. Conversely, leaving the hook and starting a new chase at LEAST gives you the pressure of an extra survivor occupied.
What's being described here is not "brute force", it's extremely basic killer gameplay strategy. You don't need gen defence if you're actually playing the macro game decently well, and the gen defence that does exist in the game is more than enough if you understand it's supposed to enhance your basekit slowdown, not replace it.
Finally, I'd like to address your last comment, and mostly I just want to point out that this is one of the biggest flaws in logic I see pop up in a lot of game communities. There's this temptation to consider a buff "the thing you do if something's too weak" and a nerf "the thing you do if something's too strong", while also strictly defining every single change that happens as necessarily one of those two things, but that's a very narrow and unhelpful way of viewing game balance.
Game balance, for all games not just DBD, is about improving the quality of the game and the experience of its players. Sometimes that's about things being too strong or too weak, sure, but sometimes it's about flaws in the game that aren't strictly about strength. Like, for example, a dull tactic that a player can choose to subject the rest of the match to that may not win them the game but does remove a huge amount of interaction and a majority of the game's depth. Camping is one of those tactics. For another example, the last two survivors excessively hiding is one of those tactics too.
Where possible, it's appropriate to fix those things even though they aren't too strong, and sometimes that's going to include nerfs. As long as it doesn't affect anything else - which this example doesn't - there's no reason to be against that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772085#Comment_3772085
right so survivor misplay. why is exactly shouldn't killer be rewarded with hook regression? A survivor that is spamming vaults and not playing well should be losing. i also don't think 10 second has any impact for soloq team games for when a survivor is throwing game. it is way out of context in regards to discussion.
Our conversation was talking about how camping can be used as means to counter gen-rushing/efficient generator gameplay and how generator before friends is stronger. In summary, when the survivor goes down early in the chase, I am still suppose to be on backfoot as killer despite the other side misplaying. If i decide to play aggressively and chase for hooks, i am still on backfoot because of survivor objective to the killer's objective of hooks vs generators due to generator defence changes.
you get reduced pressure from hooks from this new hook change and you already nerfed many generator defence perks in 6.1 and continue to nerf existing generator defence perks post 6.1. 10 second of generator is not meaningful when perks that added more time are worse. I get punished for survivor playing poorly and i don't get reward as much for playing aggressively. explain that logic.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. When I talk about a survivor spamming vaults and being an idiot, I am talking about survivors doing that IN RESPONSE TO the killer having decided to camp, just to be clear.
Camping is dull, not strong. The killer's doing nothing but standing or maybe pacing at a specific radius near the hook, and the survivors only have two choices: Try + inevitably fail to get the killer's attention and lose, or stick on generators and leave. Camping doesn't punish genrushing, because the generators go too quickly, and in fact camping is itself punished by the survivors just doing generators and leaving. If the survivors have the means to genrush on top of just doing gens, the killer absolutely just loses by default.
To your last sentence, this is the point where I really have to disagree with you on a fundamental level. The amount of pressure you get from hooks with ten extra seconds on the timer is either completely unchanged if survivors play like normal, or increased if survivors decide to neglect saves to pump gens. You get more pressure from punishing their risky behaviour, because you get more survivors dragged off generators to react.
That's what pressure is, for the record, it's survivors who aren't doing generators because you forced them to do something else. If someone's stuck on a hook and you get a down before someone's even running towards that hook for the rescue, that's an incredible situation for you. If survivors are neglecting saves to stick on gens, that's more likely to happen, not less.
I'd like to pull back and acknowledge the phrasing "gen-rushing/efficient generator play", because those two things shouldn't be considered interchangeable like that. Camping doesn't punish either, to be clear, but genrushing is survivors bringing the best possible tools to do the gens substantially faster than they'd get just playing normally.
To tackle efficient gameplay without genrushing, though, I'm still not sure where this idea that you'd be "on the back foot" comes from. If someone goes down early, that's great for you, because you can now go chase someone else and stall out generator repair before it can even really get going. I'm genuinely not sure where you're supposedly on the back foot in this scenario, you categorically do not need to stick by the hook and force second stage if you get an early down. Getting an early down makes that tremendously less necessary, even, that's kind of the best case scenario for the killer, you do not need to try and force an unreliable crutch when you're already doing really well. I'd appreciate some elaboration on what you mean here?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772065#Comment_3772065
Camping doesn't punish anything except for survivors that prefer to goof around trying to get the killer's attention.
if camping doesn't punish anything significant, than why change it? Your making it sound like it is not impactful. Something with low impact clearly does not need changes.
"Too strong" and "unhealthy" are two different things. Facecamping, for instance, hasn't actually been strong since it was changed to no longer block unhooks, but the fact remained until the AFC mechanic that a killer deciding to facecamp basically ruins your match. The same applies to regular camping, to a lesser degree; it may not outright ruin whole matches anymore, but it's also not engaging or interactive gameplay.
There's also the fact that camping in its current state does punish something. It punishes solo queue players for their teammates deciding to be idiots and spam vaults to get the killer's attention, as I said in the message you're quoting. It doesn't take coordination to beat camping, but it does take each individual survivor knowing what is required and wanting to do it, which means you can be completely out of luck if your teammates decide it'd be more fun to point at the killer to both ensure their hooked teammate doesn't get their AFC Deliverance and that the team is likely to die because they weren't doing generators.
Finally, some players - including you, in this discussion - think that camping punishes certain actions, so they're going to try to do it, leading to an intensifying of the first two points.
All these reasons mean punishing camping is a good idea even if it isn't reliably game-winning.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772046#Comment_3772046
rolling dice is better than no dice at all. I am not opposed to camping nerfs but i am opposed to having no counter-play towards gen-rushing. camping was clear well defined tactic to deal with this gameplay and now it is becoming worse. Survivors reckless pushing a survivor towards second stage →tunnel out of the game into 3vs1 might allow killer to comeback in end game. this change reduces odds of that occuring.
You're talking about genrushing, the scenario where the survivors are not only taking the steps to counter camping, but they're significantly more effective at it.
There's no dice rolling it if you're doing it in response to a match with three or four toolboxes. They're just going to crank out the gens and then come get the save. Camping doesn't punish anything except for survivors that prefer to goof around trying to get the killer's attention.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771996#Comment_3771996
At this point in the game, the killer needs no shortcuts at all.
right.. i don't agree.
As an aside, there's no punishing genrushing, if the survivors are bringing the tools to do that then they're just getting that much repair done. I'm not blind to toolboxes being unbalanced with a genrush build,
yes there is. it is called camping. typically when survivor rush generators, your left as killer with 3 gen with 1 guy on the hook.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771997#Comment_3771997
That's cause the Killer needs to be spreading pressure by quickly and efficiently hunting survivors down. Players are opting to camp more because many are straight up refusing to learn how to play any other way.
No, it is because generator defence perks keep getting nerfed which is punishing the killer for spreading pressure. I explained this already. It like stocks.
You have Tunneling stocks, Slugging stocks, Camping stocks, and Leave hook pressure stocks. The generator nerf are pushing leave hook pressure stocks down and increasing Camping stocks up.
I'm gonna have to disagree with that. If the survivors brought toolboxes + the accompanying perks, you're gonna be left with one gen at most, because the whole point of the build is that they do generators significantly faster than normal.
You'd have three gens, maybe down to two depending on how long the first chase took, if they aren't genrushing and just stick on generators to punish your camping.
You don't punish anything by camping, you're just rolling the dice on whether the survivors care enough to counter you. It's a boring, uninteractive cheese tactic and there's nothing wrong with it going.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771875#Comment_3771875
As an aside, you can win by going for aggressive chasing as long as you're actually good at it
by good at it, you mean killer has to play completely flawless with 0 mistakes and survivor can fail almost every single chase as quickly as possible while still just completing all generators anyway. The survivor can still easily hook-trade and all generator will be done.
You need to be spreading pressure for gen defence perks to do all that much.
The generator defence perk don't do enough towards spreading pressure. Camping does more then the gen perks. that is why player are opting to camp more because it is more efficient way to punish gen-rushing. This is also a way for killer to punish survivor misplays at chases in early stages of the game. The dev have this backwards. killer is punishing survivor. not survivor punishing killer. the survivor is the one failing chases.
The more imbalanced the base game is, the more killer will use cheesy shortcuts such as Tunneling and Camping.
No, I explained what I mean. Reasonably short chases, not very much downtime searching for survivors, and a good sense for where most of the repair is happening so you're not chasing one survivor on the opposite side of the map to the other three.
If camping does do more than gen perks - which honestly I find questionable if the survivors don't play into it - that's an excellent reason to nerf camping like this. We don't want camping to be desirable, after all.
The game may have its imbalances still, but it's improved by leaps and bounds since I started playing about four years ago. At this point in the game, the killer needs no shortcuts at all. They don't need gen perks, they don't need tunnelling, they don't need camping. They just need a good understanding of the macro game and a coherent build.
As an aside, there's no punishing genrushing, if the survivors are bringing the tools to do that then they're just getting that much repair done. I'm not blind to toolboxes being unbalanced with a genrush build, but you don't beat that by camping, so we don't have to be concerned about that situation for this particular change.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771843#Comment_3771843
The fact that the lengthened gen timers incidentally made camping slightly stronger was an oversight, not an intention.
No, this is intentional. the longer gen times means that early game for killer is less volatile meaning that killer is less likely to lose 3 gens at very start of the game. this means that killer is capable of camping early on if he does well early on the chase. This forces survivor to attempt to play altruism around hooks and if they try gen-rush, the killer can forcibly regress hooks punishing gen-rushing.
The devs actively encourage chases to spread your pressure, which is incidentally the stronger way of playing anyway.
Wrong, they actively keep nerfing generator defence perks punishing killer for spreading pressure. Just look at all Scourge hook pain res nerfs, Pop goes weasel than some might even start talking about eruption, hex:ruin, dead man switch, grim embrace, etc. etc. they nerf all gen defence, the killer camp more, now they nerf camping. right? what. you nerf all the perk related to spreading pressure then complain that killer is camping because they're not getting reward for spreading pressure.
it is simple formula, buff gen defence →killer is more rewarding for spreading pressure. Nerf gen defence → killer camps more.
Ideally, the killer should not spending entire load out of gen defence perk so that they can go for aggressive chasing and win but that does not seem to be in the cards. Instead, nerfing camping.
Again, what you're describing there is incidental, not intentional. The devs wanted to weaken camping with the basekit Borrowed Time, and separately, wanted to incentivise chases by buffing all those numbers. This is observable, they say as much in the dev notes.
As to everything else, I think the issue here is that you're viewing gen perks as a necessity for spreading pressure, when the reality of the situation - at least after all the nerfs - is that it's the other way around. You need to be spreading pressure for gen defence perks to do all that much. If you aren't occupying multiple survivors at once and slowing down gen repair that way, the amount of extra time regression perks buy you isn't enough to overcome that, and it shouldn't be. The only exceptions to this concept are unbalanced cheese strategies like tunnelling and camping… hence those getting nerfed.
As an aside, you can win by going for aggressive chasing as long as you're actually good at it. So, that's short chases on top of knowing where survivors are and keeping them occupied. I'm not talking hypothetically here, either, I run very little slowdown and I don't camp or tunnel, but I win a respectable amount of my games. If I lose, it's almost always because I wasn't doing well enough in chase, not because you need to camp to overcome gen defence nerfs.
In general, I think a lot of killer players could do with remembering that gens are not their objective, survivors are. Spread your pressure across your objective, not your opponent's objective.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771835#Comment_3771835
It can definitely be to your detriment.
While you temporarily take one Survivor out of the game, there's really not much difference at all whether you unhook at one second or 59. The amount of progression you get as a killer is the same.
Instead of a Survivor being pressured by needing to unhook, they can put progress into a generator, and THEN go for an unhook. That way you're still making extra progress towards the objective, without the killer getting any extra progress.
You could punish this by forcing a trade or getting an extra stage, but this change makes that less likely to happen. It makes super efficient play less risky overall.
You only really get Survivors doing that once you start getting to the higher levels of play. A lot of survivors don't understand that you don't need to immediately unhook a Survivor once they're on a hook, and sometimes the better play is to just let em hang.
Greeding gens is an undeniably effective strategy, there's a reason people do it.
The problem with this rundown is that it's not "extra" progress. It's less progress, because there's one fewer survivor contributing to the overall progression.
I'm not saying it's always actively detrimental to greed a gen over a save, there are reasons and times to do it, but it's also not always beneficial. Sometimes, you risk being put on the back foot if the killer is actively pressuring your teammates, and whatever gen repair you get done in the short term is offset by the fact that now everyone's scrambling to reset and no generators are being done whatsoever.
If they go for a save at second one, as you put it, the hooked survivor is healed and back on gens sooner, which means the gens actually get more progression while you're off chasing someone somewhere else.
The risk in that efficient play isn't that the hooked survivor will progress to stage two, not always. Sometimes the risk is that someone else gets downed sooner than you want and you're at a massive time detriment trying to undo that damage.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771820#Comment_3771820
chasing didn't do anything. the main key line in 6.1.0 was this line: "Many players feel like generators are powered too quickly without these perks, so we knew we needed to look at generators before making any perks changes. SLOWDOWN PERKS SHOULD BE AN OPTION, BUT NOT THE ONLY OPTION TO STAY COMPETITIVE."
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7DMN7V7WMZF4/image.png
So how did they do that to make slowdown an option but not only option to stay competitive. They buffed camping. that is how. a killer that cannot defend generators will camp more and by doing that, he'll slowdown the game by regressing hooks.
There is little bit of irony in last sentence because a killer that is relying less of passive slowdown mechanics is interacting less with survivor. I know last sentence suggests that you are suppose interact more but the effect is quite opposite. The less defence you bring, the less time you have as killer to interact with the survivor. This makes sense because the game ends faster.
I mean, in 6.1.0 they also labelled the basekit Borrowed Time as a nerf to tunnelling and camping, which signals pretty clearly that they wanted to make camping weaker.
They'd then go on to actually weaken camping by implementing the anti-facecamp meter, further signalling that the devs don't want people to be camping. The fact that the lengthened gen timers incidentally made camping slightly stronger was an oversight, not an intention.
The devs actively encourage chases to spread your pressure, which is incidentally the stronger way of playing anyway. Even if you think camping did get stronger, there's no basis at all for claiming the devs intentionally made it stronger specifically to compensate for a lack of slowdown perks.
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See above. I was hoping to see a more in depth argument because I'm not automatically right myself, and I like to assume people whose statements don't make sense have some deeper understanding I'm not seeing yet. I don't like to assume the worst of people, personally.
Also, y'know, I didn't actually know if that was your reasoning.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771817#Comment_3771817
You can let people hang on the hook for longer while you do gens and then go for the save at the last minute.
It punishes campers, but it also buffs the gens before friends strategy, which is effective regardless if the killer camps.
Like I said above, that's not actually to your detriment as a killer.
If you're not trying to progress hook stages, IE, camping, then someone being on the hook longer is better for you. Yes, the survivors on generators are progressing their generators, but A: They're progressing the objective slower than if their hooked teammate were doing gens, and B: So are you.
More ability to snowball pressure by putting survivors on the back foot, when multiple players need saving and healing while you're still actively playing and making that situation worse for them because you aren't trying to defend the hooks you're getting.
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I'm quite sincerely asking you, because this perspective seems very silly to me. The only thing I've seen people gesture towards vaguely is the idea that survivors would stick on gens for longer and neglect saves, but that's at worst an opportunity for you to snowball pressure, so if that is what you're referring to I was hoping for a more in depth explanation.
I'm not a troll, I just don't automatically agree with you.