jesterkind
jesterkind
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788899#Comment_3788899
"Making regression basekit will only allow killers to run even more unfun perks like anti-chase perks, which will then cause them to get their regression up and a regression loop going even faster and more reliably. It would not be fun(well I guess killers will enjoy because it'll be easier, but it's not good for the game's health long-term unless we have a comp meta/ranked mode I guess)."
So none of this applies to the half dozen basekits survivors have gotten over the past few years? What would you say when killer say this to you?
By half dozen, you mean… one?
Borrowed Time is the only perk survivors have gotten basekit, I genuinely don't know what else you could be referring to.
To weigh in on the wider topic, basekit slowdown is already more than good enough so killers don't need basekit regression perks. There'd also still be a huge difference between basekit regression perks and the basekit Borrowed Time, because anti-tunnel perks were (and still are, to a smaller degree) necessary to cover a gap in the game's base mechanics, which regression isn't even if you were to claim you need them in the current state of the game (which you don't).
Killers have regression basekit. It's only so-so (partially because it's not the main method of basekit slowdown killers have), but it exists. Survivors did not have anti-tunnel basekit before 6.1.0. in any form, not even a too-weak form.
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As others have pointed out, the problem is that survivors can do this, not that killers can't.
If you absolutely have to leave a match early, on either side, disconnect. That's the system that exists to provide you that option, and it's even lenient enough to allow you one free DC a day since the starting penalty doesn't actually stop you from playing that session. If you're finding that you need to DC out of matches more than once a day… think about that before you queue up. It's a multiplayer game, you queue up with an obligation to not ruin everyone else's games for no good reason.
One a night is enough to cover IRL emergencies, internet outages, and the occasional in-game reason to leave like a hacker holding the game hostage. Everything else is just… not wanting to play the game.
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I haven't forgotten about it, it's gone in a specific build of mine once or twice.
I would love to see it buffed, though. As before, my suggestion is this:
- The perk now also shows exit gates
- The perk now shows the aura of any survivor interacting with something the boon is highlighting
- The perk also has a few-seconds-long lingering effect when you leave the boon
With that it becomes a pretty solid info perk.
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Absolutely not, the prestige overhaul was a gigantic success. There used to be a horrendous grind in this game to get perks unlocked, now there isn't really a grind at all. That's a huge success all on its own.
Permanent level 50 bloodwebs was nice for a couple reasons, but it really doesn't outweigh the massive benefits of the new system. There being no real benefit to getting to prestige 100 is something that could be addressed, I'd be okay with like a custom charm themed around the prestiged character or something, but the major benefits to the overhaul were 100% the almost complete elimination of grinding from the game.
Frankly, prestige numbers could be infinite and it wouldn't really matter. Reaching prestige 100 isn't like, a goal you're supposed to reach or anything.
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Two things:
1: The AFC system doesn't activate at all unless you're right next to a hook. At that point, you're camping, and you should be hit by BOTH the longer hook timers AND the AFC system, because you're doing the thing both those changes were aimed to weaken. There'd be no point in making the AFC weaker when it already only activates in narrow circumstances that are all undesirable. Longer hook timers will have literally zero effect on the AFC system against non-camping killers.
2: Greeding gens over teammates is a risk. Having ten seconds longer to do it means you're taking that risk for ten more seconds. As a killer, you can and should be punishing that risk. I think this is going to be one of those things I'll end up pointing out a lot over the next few months…
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I think this sentiment is maybe a little unfair. Most perks in this game have pretty reasonable use cases, even if some of them might be a little on the weaker side.
If we're just looking at recent perks, we've had a fair few perfectly good and usable ones. If we're just looking at perks from beyond a year or so ago, we definitely have quite a few good ones. Most perks in this game are really perfectly usable.
There's a slight asterisk that goes on this for the killer side since which perks are good/viable is gonna depend on what killer you're playing, but even then almost all killers have good variety of usable perks.
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In isolation, sure, but the problem with them is that they exist in Dead By Daylight, to be a little playful with the phrasing.
On their own, they do have a very healthy design, because they encourage successfully ending chases on different survivors to make full use out of. When they're both run together, the problems start to creep in because they do represent a fairly huge amount of gen progress removed for a single hook, but in their current state they aren't too strong.
The real problem is that they can be run WITH the other regression perks. What is healthy and fair in isolation (and even arguably when paired) becomes obnoxious and overwhelming when brought in a full stack of gen defence perks. It's not optimal to do this on the killer side, but enough people think it is that they're going to do it, which brings the frustration to the forefront.
If we had a state of the game where you could only bring one gen defence perk, or something like one direct percentage removal perk and one gen blocking perk, or something, they'd definitely be the healthiest. In the actual state of the game… they're still part of a problem.
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People are allowed to run whatever they want, but what they run can be commented on too.
Some will point out that four slowdown perks can be obnoxious to play against. I'd sooner point out that four slowdown perks is extremely suboptimal and you'd really be better off with a build that only has one or two.
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@BigBlart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785712#Comment_3785712
right, but I specifically mentioned being fully healed, not just being tapped by any survivor at all. If you have time to stop and get healed fully directly off of hook, you’re not being tunneled, no?
I think that depends on context, right?
Hypothetically, if you run Second Wind, it's completely possible for you to be healed fully while being mid-chase. Similarly, if the teammate who unhooked you is running We'll Make It and juuuuust manages to get you fully healed before the killer comes back to chase you, it'd be more than possible for you to be healed fully and still be getting tunnelled.
Generally I don't think this poses a huge issue when it comes to anti-tunnel. A survivor who gets fully healed still can't do anything that actually progresses the match, so you're not at any loss here unless you choose to tunnel them - at which point they deserve to have that extra layer of protection.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784906#Comment_3784906
I also hope that a shorter timer will be considered, because with the current one you have to be leagues above the killers skill level to get the effect.
Part of the reason I don't think the current state is completely unusable is because you don't have to be considerably better than the killer to benefit from ONE of this perk's use cases.
It's not just for getting an extra health state in chase, it's also a perfectly serviceable passive heal perk for anyone that wants to mess with chests instead of totems. Same time investment as Inner Strength, but it gives you items and synergises with any other chest perks you want to use.
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This change won't affect your hook pressure.
In fact, the argument given is an argument for it INCREASING your hook pressure, if anything. I think a lot of players might need to rethink what their understanding of hook pressure is, because it has nothing at all to do with forcing hook states. Your pressure comes from the fact that you're taking one survivor out of the action and forcing another to come for the save, and you maximise that pressure by also occupying a third survivor by going and chasing them.
If they're leaving their teammate on the hook for longer, that's more time for you to maximise you hook pressure. The only way this lessens your hook pressure at all is if you think the pressure comes from forcing hook stages… which is camping, and this change is meant to weaken that.
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I don't think it's as bad as people are saying, but it would've definitely been better with a 45 second timer instead of a 60 second timer. I'm hoping they keep an eye on it in the upcoming weeks/months and at least consider that buff.
Still, it's not like it's unusable in its current state. It's a perfectly adequate passive heal perk and has at least the potential for ballsy players to try and use it mid-chase, so it's got some use.
You definitely do not want to make its activation trigger just being in chase, though. That's just begging for an old Mettle of Man situation, it's much healthier with its current activation requirement. Easier to balance and more flexible to use from the survivor side.
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I've seen Champion of Light and Fixated to be a pretty solid pair. Maybe it doesn't count because it's arguably a burst of (lower, on the killer side) speed, but being able to make distance while blinding, and then that blind allowing you to make more distance, is really good.
I'd probably pair it with something like Finesse or Resilience for vault speed, myself. Maybe a stealth perk like Quick & Quiet or Dance With Me, maybe Light-Footed.
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@theonryo123 said:
No guarantee kil
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784028#Comment_3784028
no guarantee escape for survivor no guarantee kill for killer but then again it’s not making sense think about it. Yes no one left behind adrenaline and hope are not disabled and same with killer end game perks that’s not disabled but tell me this. How come if the killers side like Noed terminus no way out or blood warden what happens if a killer tunnels you until end game and you have to defend yourself?? At least they should make off the record in end game work because basically they just giving a killer a way to get a kill because he or she is trash at the game and can’t win because you have to have it the easy way without earning yourself a kill mad get good at the game that’s the point I’m trying to make here
I'm not sure I'm following?
If the killer's trying to tunnel you all the way to end game… you have DS and OTR. The killer's tunnelling you before the last generator is done, which means those two perks are still active. Even if you're hooked afterwards, everyone else on your team can bodyblock for you to get you out.
In this scenario, if you had DS and OTR, you'd be guaranteed an escape. That's bad. But in this same scenario, the killer isn't guaranteed a kill, so the situation is equal. Both sides have an opportunity to win here.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784119#Comment_3784119
why I didn't want to start giving examples,
If it's hard to give examples, then the claim may be false…
It was very easy for me to give some examples.without requiring any meaningful grinding to progress in
That's simply not true for DBD…
DBD's basic progression and Fortnite's battle pass share a similarity
Both need you to play games, but in Fortnite your chance to win doesn't change with content you have unlocked.
DBD grind is mandatory. You can't go around it and you have to pay for it.
I can create new account in Fortnite and only thing different is going to be visual of my character. My chance to win is going to be exactly same as main account. You see the difference? I can also do it for free…You're also bringing up cost again, despite it being irrelevant.
And I will keep doing it, because it's not irrelevant. It just highlights how ridiculous current system is.
It's not hard, it's just an easy way to stop paying attention to the argument and start nitpicking apart the example, so I didn't think it would be productive to do it.
A good example of that is how much you're focusing on the fact that Fortnite's progression system is cosmetic only. That obviously wasn't my point - I acknowledged the difference myself - but because I gave the example, it starts to look like you can weaken my argument by also pointing out that difference.
Fact of the matter is, DBD gives out enough BP that levelling characters isn't that hard, on top of the bloodweb itself being noticeably cheaper than it used to be, on top of you having to go through way fewer levels to get relevant perks unlocked on relevant characters. You have to play games to do it, but you can progress in the game pretty significantly over the course of just a couple days if you go for long play sessions.
The only way it would be otherwise is either if you're trying to unlock everything (which is fine in my opinion, it's still not that bad and "unlocking everything" is a long term kind of goal anyway), or if you're somehow both starting from absolutely nothing and trying to unlock multiple meta perks from the word go (which now that cross progression exists, nobody should ever need to do and, frankly, still isn't that bad, it's just the least organic and most time consuming way of doing things).
Or, I guess, if you wanted to just have everything with no progression system at all, but I'm assuming that's not the case here.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784113#Comment_3784113
THIS game doesn't have grind either, it just has a progression system
It's both... You need to do same thing over and over again to unlock new things. Fact is you don't have access to it from start, it's locked behind time and money investment.
progression system in the form of the battle pass cosmetics
Which is also thing in DBD… with many things on top of it
Unlike Fortnite, DBD has grind towards something affecting gameplay, it completely changes the gameplay. Some things are almost necessary to unlock, when you get enough hours.I couldn't care less if DBD focused purely on skins to earn money. It's optional, you don't get any disadvantage for not going for this. I don't think that's true for DBD, not even close.
Even the hypothetical longest goal - unlocking every perk on every character in DBD and finishing out the bonus rewards in Fortnite
You need 300 euro and 1k+ hours of playtime for it?
See, this is why I didn't want to start giving examples, the conversation would just become about those examples instead of the overall point.
DBD's basic progression and Fortnite's battle pass share a similarity: They're both very lenient and accessible, without requiring any meaningful grinding to progress in. That is the point of comparison and the only reason to even consider the other game to begin with.
You're also bringing up cost again, despite it being irrelevant.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784098#Comment_3784098
Money to skip grind is a horrendous system so we shouldn't want it for DBD
I really don't think paid game, with tons of DLCs and huge grind on top of it is any better. I will rather pick F2P game with skippable grind and better skins…
there's not much need to skip levelling in this game; you can do it at a reasonable pace yourself.
There is no need for such a grind tho… and it just a valid reason why to avoid DBD. You could reduce it to third and it would more than enough to keep players engaged.
I didn't list any games because my argument has absolutely nothing to do with other games
You said
The grind that exists in the game right now is pretty mild and appropriate for a live service game
So I would like to know what is your live service games reference.
Because there are live service games with no grind and yet players keep playing…To be clear, THIS game doesn't have grind either, it just has a progression system. I used the word grind in that message because that's how it's being talked about, and perhaps I shouldn't have, but if we're defining grind as the need to sink tons of time into basic progression, this game doesn't have it.
I will provide an example here, but I want to be clear: My argument does not hinge on this example. My argument stands on its own without the need to compare to other games. This could be a helpful point of reference, though.
What this game has is mostly comparable to the other live service game I play the most of, Fortnite. Now, there is a key difference in that nothing you unlock in Fortnite has an impact on gameplay, but there's still a progression system in the form of the battle pass cosmetics. In that game, you do have to spend time playing to unlock those things, but it's extremely manageable for anyone that plays more than a single game once a week. I don't play hours and hours of either game every day, but I still manage to finish Fortnite's battle pass and I still managed to get every character I own to prestige 3 in a pretty reasonable timeframe.
Neither of these games are ones I would consider as having "a grind", because you can achieve basic progression in a very reasonable amount of time. Even the hypothetical longest goal - unlocking every perk on every character in DBD and finishing out the bonus rewards in Fortnite - can be done in the span of a couple months without extreme investment.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784089#Comment_3784089
I'm not concerning myself with money cost here,
It's part of the grind imo. In most games money is something to skip grind, that's not really true for DBD. Unless you want to unlock all characters with shards (original at least), that would be some insane numbers…
that's only going to be a new player's motivation if someone else gives them horrendously bad advice by telling them they need meta perks
I did research on builds basically after first day, but I think I am far from standard…
I do back up my arguments
Yeah, I don't see any games listed.
Dota, Counter Strike, Fortnite don't have any grind (unless something changed since I played). It all comes to skill and learning in those.
League of legends has high grind, but it can be mostly skipped with money, so that's good example where it is one or the other.Money to skip grind is a horrendous system so we shouldn't want it for DBD. Thankfully, we don't need it, because there's not much need to skip levelling in this game; you can do it at a reasonable pace yourself.
As to the last part: Yeah, I didn't list any games because my argument has absolutely nothing to do with other games. I don't really care to list games with worse grind than DBD because that's irrelevant, I'm making my argument based on the game we're actually concerned with.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784081#Comment_3784081
Oh right, because writing paragraph without any context is so much better…
I never talked about unlocking everything. Even just beginner level (6-7 characters) is way higher than most games.
You can try to back up your argument for once. What games except on mobile (that's some next level grinds there) have higher money cost and grind than DBD?I do back up my arguments, that's why I'm asking you not to dissect sentence fragments.
But, since you asked: I'm not concerning myself with money cost here, that's not related to this conversation. For the record, I do consider DBD's monetisation pretty questionable, but it's not related to whether or not there's a grind associated with progression in-game.
If we're talking about beginner players, let's recalibrate to the beginner headspace. Someone who is new to the game and only has base stuff (+ maybe one or two DLCs they were interested in) unlocked is not going to be concerned with actually getting a substantial amount unlocked, because they don't even know what's good yet. What they'll do is they'll focus on the one character they play, and then after a little while, start looking at other characters to see if their perks are worthwhile.
At this point, we also have to recalibrate to what the relevant action is here: Getting that second character to prestige 1.
Getting a character to prestige 1 does represent a timesink, but not a huge one. If you're actually trying and using the available tools like daily rituals and archive challenges, you've got plenty of BP available to spend on characters to try stuff out. This is obviously an opinion, but I truly don't think this game has an appreciable grind unless you really do want to unlock everything on every character, and even that is manageable.
I think part of the problem here is something you alluded to in your other response where you talk about getting a "good build", but that's only going to be a new player's motivation if someone else gives them horrendously bad advice by telling them they need meta perks. A new player without that bad advice is just going to play with what they have available and that will be good enough for a newbie playing against other newbies. The actual progression for new players, done organically, isn't that bad: There's a fair amount of new player BP bonuses for things like finishing the tutorials, and the bloodweb is a fair bit cheaper and speedier than it used to be,
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783942#Comment_3783942
Why are we concerning ourselves with new players and beginners?
So there is better chance to get new players to DBD? My main group dropped DBD purely because of grind and I don't believe it was fixed.
Those players don't need to be concerned with unlocking everything
It's not just everything. Even unlock 1 full build is in hundreds of games. That's a lot…
They'll be putting their attention on the character they're actually playing
That's not possible now. You need to spend BP on characters even if you want only a perk from them. You can't only focus on what you want. That's why tier 1 should be unlocked as soon you unlock the character.
On top of that, the only BP booster you're considering is cakes, which is a little silly. Daily rituals, archive challenges, the free spots in the rift
That's why I reduced it to 90, which is still a lot.
Also you can't expect new players to get even close to higher end of BP limit.
consistent amount of BP codes being shared around
Oh right, because new players are going to find out about codes…
Unlocking everything takes a couple months
Unlocking everything is 300 euro and more than thousand hours of gameplay. Don't say couple months, that means nothing, everyone plays different amount of time per day.
Overall playtime is what matters and that is insanely high.You need 291 600 000 BP to unlock every character on prestige 3, which is increasing with each chapter.
If you're just gonna hop around dissecting sentence fragments out of order and out of context, there's no meaningful conversation that can be had here.
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@Sarrif said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784039#Comment_3784039
Me: Points out that an add-on literally does nothing
You: It does not need a buff it's fineI know you said that, I'm disagreeing with you.
I'll meet you halfway on the speed addons, I think they're okay-ish for altruistic heals but I'll buy that they're not worth running for self heals. Fair enough.
The only other addons you mention are the two different skill check related ones. One you say nobody needs because they can hit skill checks, and I counter that by saying they help less skilled players hit their Great skill checks, especially in the context of the other skill check addons. The other, you say is bad because they don't work with Autodidact…? Which is just kind of a weird thing to say because they're obviously pretty darn strong on their own if you can hit Greats (hence me bringing up the size increase addons), and also because obviously they don't work with Autodidact, that perk doesn't work with medkits at all.
Unless you're referring to flashlight addons, which I didn't fight you on at all. It's just worth pointing out that flashlights are themselves balanced and useful, so they wouldn't need buffs in the context of making chests worthwhile since you already don't get addons from chests by default.
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@Sarrif said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783834#Comment_3783834
… I literally pointed out how several add-ons objectively do nothing. Get out of here you basic killer main, can't even pretend to be here in good faith.
I was tempted to respond to the first one because it seemed off to me, and I think it's worth pointing out overall here now.
Medkit addons are pretty good across the board, I'm not sure how you're concluding they're pointless. Maybe you could argue the speed addons aren't worth running, but there's only three of those, and the rest are perfectly useful. The skill check increase ones are extremely strong + the ones for making skill checks bigger synergise nicely with them, extra charges are always useful, and both the syringes are very good.
If all you're hinging your assertion that medkits need buffs on is that their addons aren't very good, I think it's worth pointing out that the medkit addons are in fact pretty good across the board.
It's also worth pointing out here that while flashlight addons might be a tad underwhelming, the item itself is already very fair and balanced, so flashlights don't need buffs here either.
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783983#Comment_3783983
why because killers couldn’t get a kill so all of our perks disabled at end game when killers get to have their end game perks? Make it make sense
I can make that make sense.
You're comparing endgame perks on the killer side to throughout-the-match perks on the survivor side. After all, it's not all of the survivor's perks being disabled- just two that would be problematic if they got to work in the endgame. The missing piece of the puzzle that makes this make sense is that survivors have endgame perks too.
Adrenaline, Hope, No One Left Behind, and Wake Up are all endgame perks, those aren't disabled- just like the killer's endgame perks aren't disabled either, because that's what they're designed for.
Nothing should be guaranteed in the endgame. There should be perks to help, but they shouldn't provide free win conditions for either side. No killer perk should guarantee kills and no survivor perk should guarantee an escape. If you were to argue that some killer perks do guarantee kills - and I'm on the fence about this, I think there's some issues here but it's usually down to bad luck more than the perks themselves - then the only logical conclusion is that they should be changed, not OTR and DS.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783915#Comment_3783915
New players don't have cakes, so that's around 30k per game. In reality probably less for beginner survivors...
You need around 1,2 M per prestige. So you need around 120 games for 1 character to prestige 3. You can have bonus so I would guess around 90, but depends on the role. Survivors get way less, especially new players...
That's a lot, when you also have to pay 5-8 euro per DLC.
This is definitely not a day, not even a week thing for most players. We are talking in months range.
And you want to tell me, there is not bigger grind than other games?
Basically only game I see worse than DBD is WoW...
If I lost my account, I would never start playing DBD again, nor recommend it to any new player.
Players who have time, don't have money for all those DLCs and players who have money don't have enough time to even unlock the content.
Why are we concerning ourselves with new players and beginners? Those players don't need to be concerned with unlocking everything. They'll be putting their attention on the character they're actually playing, and maybe one or two others if they came in with a recommendation from a friend to unlock specific perks. If we're talking about unlocking everything, or even unlocking a majority of things, we are inherently not talking about new players because that isn't a new player concern.
On top of that, the only BP booster you're considering is cakes, which is a little silly. Daily rituals, archive challenges, the free spots in the rift, consistent boosters to both BP gain directly or XP gain (which leads into the free spots in the rift), and a consistent amount of BP codes being shared around on a regular basis all contribute to the grind. Even if we were to concern ourselves with just what's in the game itself and that every player has access to, that only disqualifies the BP codes, everything else still counts.
Unlocking everything takes a couple months. That's about how long it took me after I started attempting it. Getting one character to prestige 3 doesn't really take all that long these days, unless you only play a single match on weekends or something, at which point any progression system is going to take you forever.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783457#Comment_3783457
I don't think there really is that much of a grind anymore, though?
Depends if you talk about survivor, or killers. Even more if you want to play both...
There is huge grind on killers. Killers need different perks and most players don't want to play 1 build for tens of hours.
DBD with all content is very expensive game, with huge grind on top of it, which is impossible to skip. There is not many games with "double" grind. Usually it's one or the other.
I don't think tier 3 perks should unlock, but definitely tier 1, so I am not forced to spend currency (BP) on characters I don't even want to play.
I was considering both sides. Even on killer, which is the side I play most, it doesn't really take that long to unlock absolutely everything, and most players don't really want everything. They just want a specific set of perks.
The way bloodpoint gain is, you get enough BP to prestige a character pretty damn frequently. It does require actively playing the game, but it's not really that much of a grind, it's relatively quick.
Getting tier 1 perks would be fine too, I'm not necessarily against it, but DBD really doesn't have that much of a grind outside of normal progression these days.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783457#Comment_3783457
I think that having to work to unlock perks is bs and it doesn't make the game more engaging. There are many PVP games far more popular than DBD that have 0 grind, as in everything that affects gameplay (non-cosmetics) is unlocked from the start, e.g. Dota 2, CSGO, Fall Guys, Fortnite, and Overwatch. These games are literally the most popular PVP games currently, which shows that the grind is unnecessary to attract players. The grind is mostly just a barrier to entry and chore for players. By removing the grind, the game becomes accessible to far more people, which helps it become more popular.
That's what I'm saying, though, I don't think what DBD has is a grind. I think it's a fairly neutral progression system that'll give you significant progress per day of playing matches.
I'm not saying a grind is necessary, I'm saying a progression system is necessary, and DBD has that for perks and for items/addons/offerings. I don't think it's appreciably hard to get what you want in any of those categories, unless you're hunting for an excess of specific addons (which I'm guilty of lol), I think you get those things at a fast enough rate that you don't really have to grind for them.
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I'd personally be okay with the current amount of BP from a daily ritual if they refreshed infinitely. You'd still only get one reroll per day, but you'll always have three rituals to choose from if you want to focus on grinding BP for a play session.
That's how a lot of other games do it, I think it'd be appropriate here.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783450#Comment_3783450
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783446#Comment_3783446
Classic DbD way of balance things
"Just make it a perk(s)".Nice. Instead of redefine or improve base mechanics that are outdated or they are not good, lets just slam 10 perks and hope some of them will make it worth it.
Next time we should make 10 new perks around luck mechanic since that is even more worthless.
I was careful to say you'd ideally see both, not just make it a perk and call it a day.
New perks come out on a regular schedule, it's not entirely absurd to imagine that perks would come out while larger changes are still in the pipline. Not to say that the devs are currently working on a chest overhaul, just that you'd kinda expect to see the perks be finished first if they were.
Anyway, I kinda like these new perks. They're a new thing to play with and aim to craft good builds with.
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I don't think there really is that much of a grind anymore, though?
Don't get me wrong, there's progression. If you want someone's perks unlocked across all characters, you're gonna have to play a few matches to get enough BP to do it, but that's how it should work- there should be something you're working towards in games like this, to keep it more engaging. It used to be a grind because you had to level everyone every time a new character came out, now you only need to level one.
Even if you actually want to level everyone to prestige 3 (which, most players don't, I would imagine), it doesn't take that long. I'm basically at that point myself - I'm missing a couple characters here and there so it's not literally everyone, but it's everyone I own that is now at a minimum of P3 with some being higher - and it only took me a couple months after I decided I wanted to do it. That's even counting the time I wasn't actively playing, too, I took a break in the middle.
The grind that exists in the game right now is pretty mild and appropriate for a live service game, in my opinion.
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I mean, to be fair, if chests are considered not worth it, doesn't it kind of make sense to add some perks that MAKE searching chests worthwhile?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see chests and items get an overhaul too, but ideally you'd see both a chest overhaul and some new perks that make it more worthwhile to search chests.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783101#Comment_3783101
I'm trying to figure out where he's going with this. Like I get the misunderstanding between average and uneven data sets, but this? I'm wondering if there has been some massive communication at some point because saying a killer has an average winrate of 0% is nonsensical.
I think the point of miscommunication here miiiight be something like, when they say "average winrate of 0%" what they mean is that the average outcome isn't a win?
That statement would kinda make more sense based on what they're saying overall, like, the difference between killers never winning and the average outcome being a draw or a loss but wins still happening here and there.
I'm not good enough with numbers to know if that's anything on its own merits, but it does seem like what they're saying.
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No, not at all.
My explanation for Xeno being low on Nighlight (other than Nightlight not being super accurate to begin with) is that it's kinda hard to play?
It has a similar skill curve to something like the Nemesis Tentacle Strike, which is a very strong ability that it's very easy to whiff. Add on to the difficulty that turrets are something you need to be aware of and get better playing around, something Nemesis doesn't have to be concerned with at all, and you have a recipe for a killer that is going to struggle in the hands of less experienced players - and to be clear, I count myself among their number, I'm awful with Xenomorph lol
Xeno's in a pretty okay spot once you get the hang of how to play it, in my opinion. That's not to say nothing can hypothetically be changed, but I don't think it's a weak killer in desperate need of buffs either.
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@LordGlint said:
This would ironically buff NOED
Not really. Cleansing every totem just to prevent NOED is already a hypothetical and not the perk's meaningful counterplay, that getting harder doesn't really move the needle at all.
Though, hey, more perks that reward survivors for breaking dulls being popular could address that issue even if I'm wrong about that.
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@Ayodam said:
Damn, the dust hasn’t even settled on Distortion’s nerf and y'all are already on to the next. Lol
To be fair, posts like this about Windows have been happening for a loooooong time. It doesn't have much to do with Distortion's upcoming nerf.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781401#Comment_3781401
The Strange thing about this data is it shows this killers WASNT skilled with Trapper at all. The average game got less than 2 traps. This isn't downs, this is simply survivors stepping in traps. This means the results were seeing is basically "Man with Knife".
There is the possibility of survivors who veered away from traps and got hit as a result, which wouldn't show up in the "stepped in traps" stat but was still related to Trapper's power.
But also, yeah, I did clock that average trap amount after posting, and woof. That's pretty dire, but good results for Man With Machete.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782186#Comment_3782186
you are just saying this to dismiss legit concerns against your suggestion 😘
Alright, man, if we're done we're done. Just wanted to make that one part clear in case there was legit confusion.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782179#Comment_3782179
yeah no.. i cant be bothered no more. Im not nitpicking im saying how it is, ask yourself why hex are so rarely used and you have your answer. Because the hex perks are too weak for being finite. And "away" from survivors?? they start spread across the map, very rarely all 4 survivors are on the same spot..
Im done explaining it, i have made enough effort in actually good spirit trying to explain to you why i think your suggsetion doesnt bear anything for killers. And when you are just going to argue that im dismissing just for dismissing sake, then i will actually do that now. Im unsubscribing from this conversation and leave you to your horrible idea. And hope the devs dont pick it up.If you don't want to respond that's totally fair, sincerely, but just for the sake of clarification: Hexes can spawn on your side of the map, as well as spawning towards the middle. It's absolutely possible for hexes to not spawn in front of survivors.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782171#Comment_3782171
And then half of the perks are gone immediatly because you have 2 more chances for them to spawn right in survivors radius at the start of the trial. Not to mention how weak the perks you are using are for being hexes.
Haunted ground litteraly is rng, you dont even get to be close to any healthy survivor when they cleanse it and more often than not the one you are chasing is injured in that moment anyway. Very rarely haunted ground actually gave me benefit and then it was gone forever.
Devour hope; by the time the strongest effect is in play, you have alredy basicly won anyway. And it only lasts as long as it is up.
Plaything is litteraly countered easyer when there is more totem spots lol. I dont even think i need to explain why. the whole thing for plaything is sometimes the totems connected to you are hard to spot.
Same goes for NOED, more spots, easyer detection. All though i personally dont think NOED deserves anything good, i think its cheap last safety resort often used by people that struggle throughout the match to get some last cheap hooks.
You talk about synergy as if it is connected to totems rather than perk slots XD doesnt matter if you have 7 or 12 totems, killer only has 4 perk slots and majority of those dont even return when they are cleansed the first time. Which is the reason why i say its a buff to survivors, even more ways to get rid of a killers hex perk..
Idk why anyone would run undying on its own, there is better aura reading. But undying would be the ONLY perk that benefits from more totems, which is nullified by the fact that the perks its supposed to buff, are nerfed with your suggestion.
Honestly face the darkness doesnt change at all. It will litteraly be the same as it is now, pure rng. So no buff, compared to how mutch more accsessibly boons and totem perks become for survivors with your suggestion.
Thrill of the hunt doesnt get stronger with more totem spots, it stays the same. And retribution? really? Again there is better aura read.
Im starting to think you dont know alot about killer honestly.You keep mentioning that you have two more chances for them to spawn right in front of survivors, and have never acknowledged that there's also more chances for them to spawn away from survivors. It's starting to make you look extremely biased.
Also, I am absolutely talking about totem spots and I was very clear about why: Some combinations of perks spawn more hexes than there are dull totems, and you don't even need to use all your perk slots to do it. It is totem spawns, not perk slots.
I'm not going to go through every single one of those perks and explain why they're not as bad as you're making them out to be, but I do want to highlight two that you're extremely wrong about: Plaything and NOED.
How is more totems making them easier to spot when you can already see them through walls? The "whole thing" with Plaything is pushing survivors into cleansing totems or being easier to sneak up on, that's the benefit. They're not hidden like other hexes are.
The only other perk I want to mention you being wrong about here is Retribution. I bring that up in the context of it being a counter perk. If you're not familiar, Retribution inflicts Oblivious on someone interacting with any totem for any reason, so if combined with something like Undying or just general info, you can sneak up on someone doing a totem easier. That's also why I mentioned Thrill, it's relevant because it's a counter perk, not because it gets directly stronger.
The rest of them are absolutely you nitpicking to just dismiss everything out of hand, to be clear, but there's a lot of subjectivity that goes into the ones I didn't mention. More totems is obviously an improvement to build flexibility here, even if you personally don't like running the perks involved, and it's also more opportunity to run currently niche perks IF survivors interact with totems a lot more because of the change.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782153#Comment_3782153
I just can’t with this conversation. I just sincerely hope BHVR never takes this thread seriously.
Very constructive, my mind has been thoroughly changed.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782149#Comment_3782149
shattered hope will totally be required when boons and totem perks explode in usage. And i ask again, what is in it for the killer? So far i only see straight out survivor benefits in your suggestion and you make alot of stretches to reach killer benefits in your arguments. It might look like that in theory but in practice its a diffrent story because you keep forgetting about the 1v4 aspect. More totems is more possibillitys for 4 people to use the spots and even more task for the 1 person on the other end to control not only gens but also totems now…
Alright, let me give you some hard examples. For the sake of this discussion, we're going to assume that the current five totems that spawn is being increased to seven, for an increase of two.
So. Right now, let's look at a couple hex perks. Let's say you want to burn three perk slots; Plaything, Haunted Grounds, Devour Hope. Well, assuming you hook each survivor once, that's seven hex totems trying to spawn. Four from Plaything, two from Haunted Grounds, one from Devour Hope. This combination doesn't work with the current number of totems… but it would work with seven dull totems in the trial.
Let's take another example. Plaything, Devour Hope, and No One Escapes Death. That's a potential six hexes trying to spawn. Not a good synergy now, but with seven totems, you've even got one left over in case some enterprising survivor decides to cleanse a dull raw.
Pretty much any synergy that follows these lines is going to become actually possible with more totems, and it also opens up the design space for future hexes that spawn multiple totems, either at base like Haunted or over time like Plaything.
But let's say you aren't interested in synergies, you want a specific single perk to get stronger on its own with this change. Alright, let's look at two examples there.
Undying. On its own, Undying shows you the aura of survivors near dull totems. While that range is still going to be a little mediocre, with six totems to pull from instead of four you've got a more even coverage of the map.
Face the Darkness. This perk spawns on a random totem for as long as you leave one specific survivor injured. With seven totems, it becomes that little bit harder to find when it spawns, especially when it's blinking on and off so someone might miss it when it's active.
These are the direct examples. As I laid out before, counterpick perks that weaken survivors interacting with totems like Thrill or Retribution also get stronger. Dominance, assuming it doesn't get overhauled between PTB and Live, also adds more to the game overall with more totems in contention. And, finally, it mustn't be overlooked, more survivors cleansing totems is more time to generate pressure just on its own.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782083#Comment_3782083
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782145#Comment_3782145
It sounds like a horrible outcome to me.
Survivors will have more chances for totems to spawn within range of generators, or spawn within other locations where they want to bless a totem. And survivors will, on average, spend less time searching for a totem, because there are more totems to find. Those two things, by themselves, vastly outweighs the benefits that killers would get from more totems.
Sure, but they still have to interact with them. The time they spend on side objectives isn't just how long it takes the find them, it's also actually doing the action they're looking for - blessing or cleansing.
If the totem is more out in the open and close to generators, good. That means it's easier to snuff IF the survivors want to boon it instead of cleansing it.
As for it outweighing the benefits killers get, I firmly disagree. Frankly, when I wrote this post, I was worried it'd benefit the killer too much compared to the survivors; the ability to freely mix Plaything and Haunted Grounds together, potentially with a third anchor hex depending on how much extras we add here, would be very strong. This plus what I laid out above, where killers get a whole suite of counterpicks that suddenly get much more reliable… yeah, it looks good for killers here.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782145#Comment_3782145
mhm yeah counter perks that we need to combat boons now and dont get the spot for gen slowdown. It doesnt matter how you turn it, it keeps being a favor to the survivors. and hurting killers disproportianally.
You wouldn't need these perks, but you'd get more use out of them, that's an improvement.
If boons explode in popularity, great, you've got options. You can either just snuff them as you see them to drag one survivor off to relight it, or you can bring Shattered Hope to destroy those spots outright. You could also run something like Undying to see when people are starting to boon, and/or something like Thrill to slow them down. Either paired with Retribution means the survivors won't hear you approaching them if you decide to interrupt, too.
If Inner Strength/Hardened/Overzealous explode in popularity, same deal. You can just deal with them the way you would now, and make use of the time being added to the trial, or you could bring a number of counterpick perks to hamper the survivors trying to set up their own perks.
More perks being reliably useful is a good thing for the killer no matter how you slice it, as long as they aren't required. Which, of course, they wouldn't be.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782132#Comment_3782132
And i think its a very VERY bad idea to have more places for boons and more oppurtunity for other perks like inner strenght. I think you dont realize how much stronger inner strength could become if there was just more totems. Why would survivors heal each other at all then? anyone can just do a totem while the killer is occupied and next time activate inner strength in some random locker, while the others can do gens.
It simply doesnt work, 1 player barely benefits while 4 players strongly benefit from your suggestion.I mean, they'd heal each other because it'd be quicker and in a lot of cases more convenient?
While it is more efficient overall, Inner Strength takes longer in strict time than getting healed by someone else. Twelve seconds cleansing a totem + eight seconds sitting in a longer = twenty seconds before you've even factored in any travel time at any stage here. Inner Strength is a great perk, but even with more totems it's not a replacement for altruistic healing.
More spots for boons isn't necessarily a big deal, either. Not every dull totem that spawns is automatically a good spot for a boon, after all, so you're fairly likely to have pretty much the same amount of viable spots as usual… and boons are infinite, so it's not like it matters how many you've got unless it's zero.
This is all before factoring in that any of these perk types getting popular on the survivor side means you're far more likely to get to use the counter perks for them. Shattered Hope, Thrill of the Hunt, Dominance, Undying, even Retribution works on boon users. The game being slowed down by survivors doing side objectives, and you have the ability to affect those side objectives. As a killer player, that sounds like a great outcome to me.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782113#Comment_3782113
Even if its neutral to hexes (which it is not) its still MASSIVE buffs to survivors kit, when more totems were added.
Also dont forget the whole killer related objects that will also have more reliable spawns when you have less spots to place them because now totems take up more spots. And the hexes are just far too weak for them being finite too. That doesnt change when there are more spots either, they dont get stronger just because now there is more places added.
I used to dislike boons being infinite when CoH was still meta. Now i dont mind it. And again you bring up the argument that it wastes survivors time going for boons, which i alredy countered. It actively makes it more convinient for them if anything, now they have MORE acsessibillity to totem spots and can cover the map mutch more easyly instead of having to go to a certain spot. How does that safe any time for the killer?Like I laid out, it's not actually neutral to hexes, the part that's neutral is just spawn logic. It's beneficial to hexes for the other reasons, when you factor in the non-standard ones like Undying.
To the point about killer related objects: I'm pretty sure those don't share spawn points with totems, just chests. Right? I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Finally, I'm not saying it wastes survivor time to go for boons. I'm not talking about wasting time at all, and I'm not talking about boons, either. Time that survivors spend interacting with dull totems for the OTHER totem perks is time that survivors are not spending on generators. They aren't wasting that time because it still does something for them, but it does make the trial last a little longer, and time is on the killer's side. That's what I mean when I say it slows the game down in a healthy way; survivors aren't just throwing, but the killer still gets more time to generate pressure.
I would be delighted if survivors started spending time looking for and cleansing totems to activate, say, Inner Strength or Hardened. Even Overzealous, frankly. I'd be even happier if they started running Small Game, Detective's Hunch, or Counterforce to find those totems instead of spending time searching. All of those are slots that could be spent on meta perks that'd be much harder to counter and that wouldn't slow the game down at all.
To be clear, I don't necessarily think that just increasing totem count would cause a giant meta shift, but I do (perhaps aspirationally) think more survivors would run stuff like Inner Strength if they weren't competing with their teammates for totems quite as hard. Even more than that, I definitely think at least some killers would run hexes more if they had more freedom to combine the perks that spawn multiple lit totems with one another. It wouldn't be the only thing hexes need but it would help.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782083#Comment_3782083
it would definitly hurt the hexes and benefit survivors perks way more.
Also i didnt say i want them to become a one-time use. I say i dont want more totem spots for boons.My mistake. You were calling me out for saying there's no issue with boons being infinite, so I assumed that meant you had an issue with boons being infinite yourself.
And I disagree. It's obviously pretty neutral for hexes at worst. More spots to potentially spawn in, no real change to the likelihood of it being a bad spot, and the ability to more freely mix in non-standard hexes like Plaything and Haunted Grounds together with a standard hex like Ruin or Devour. If you add in that perks like Thrill, Retribution, Undying, and potentially (depending on hypothetical changes) all get improved with two or three extra totems on the trial, it does look like an improvement to hexes overall.
Hexes also aren't the only thing the killer cares about here. More time for survivors interacting with side objectives is good for them too, it slows down the game in a healthy way.
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@Huge_Bush said:
Nah, I’d rather they just increase the time to cleanse them by like 5 seconds or something. Hurts so much when I’m about to stop them and it gets cleansed right as I hit them 😭
@SoGo said:
I just want the totem spots fixed to be decent.
Most of the time, they spawn right next to gens and in the most obvious places.
I feel like neither of these changes would help survivor totem perks all that much, though. That's why I think adding more dull totems is an idea worth discussing; it helps both sides.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782070#Comment_3782070
No, i really dont want the boons to come back ," be stronger and more annoying" we had that with CoH and it was horrible.
And in theory you are right but in practise its just so simple, boons can be easyly re-lightened because its 4 survivors and only 1 has to really do it (which is usually the person bringing the perk) killer has to manage between all 4 and then on top of this also their boon if they want to get rid of the effects, as they dont even know what these are.
And hexes? well you keep ignoring when people tell you they spawn right in the survivors faces most of the time, making it whopping 0 seconds of value. And you want even more totems, even more chances for hexes to spawn where survivors spawn. Even easyer accsess to boon spots.Then you shouldn't want one-time-use boons, that's my point. They'd need to be significantly stronger to justify only being usable a handful of times in the best of circumstances.
I'm not ignoring anything, I know hexes can spawn in bad spots. I do play killer, I know how annoying hexes can be. I also know hexes don't always spawn right out in the open and that there are a fair number of pretty good hex spots on most maps. Like I said to you earlier - that you are actually ignoring, for the record - more totems means more chances of good hex spots as well, not just the bad ones.
Hexes, in general, would need more help than just this. This wouldn't even really help hexes as a class, they'd be at a net neutral here, it'd just help combinations of hexes. It wouldn't hurt hexes, though.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782064#Comment_3782064
They are not that diffrent? hexes are weaker than boons but thats it. And you want to essentially buff boons with your suggestion, while simillarly hurting hexes because now there is more spots where they could be obviously right in the survivors face at the start of the trial.
But you alredy showed you have a bias as you said you see no issiue with infinite boons while hexes are one-time use.That's not a bias, that's a difference in understanding.
To me, the fact that boons are designed to be localised buffs in a small (ish) area inherently makes them completely different to hexes. Because, y'know, they are. Hexes are global effects that push survivors into a one-time timesink to find and get rid of them. Boons are localised effects that survivors want to continually spend time keeping up. They have different intents with different associated gameplay, they're just not that similar. The only similarity they even have is that they revolve around totems, but even the way they use totems is different.
One-time boons would be a dramatically different kind of perk. They'd all need to be completely overhauled from the ground up to accommodate such a fundamental difference in intent behind the mechanic. I just don't see the value in something like that, I don't think it'd be better for everyone for boons to be dramatically stronger and more annoying but also much less reliable on the survivor side.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782033#Comment_3782033
and that is where you are simply wrong. I remember how strong CoH was and how everyone said shattered hope shouldve been basekit instead of wasting a perk slot for the off chance someone brings a boon.
Boons are far superior to hexes even today. And as i said there are various non- boon perks that favor survivors, yet killers have no perks that wor with dull totems.I mean, I don't see how anything you said even connects to what I just said, let alone disproves it.
CoH was too strong, undoubtedly. That doesn't mean boons and hexes aren't completely different mechanics…?
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@dwight444 said:
please no more totems or chests
May I ask why not?