jesterkind
jesterkind
About
- Username
- jesterkind
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,633
- Last Active
Comments
-
@squbax said:
You absolutelly can, just not in the way you are mentioning. Take this scenario, I have ds and plotwist, after I get unhooked I wont bodyblock but rather I will go around using EMPs, triggering hags traps, placing turrets, doing the box, disabling trappers setup, and guess what if the killer tries to stop me I plot twist and they can choose, either they pick me up eat DS and go on another chase or they let me be I plot twist and all that time slugged was worthless for them, both choices being a lose-lose for the killer, and if they ignore you they will say bye bye to their set up.
Hmm…
You know, I'll give you that. Against very specific killers with a very specific build, you can sorta weaponise DS in a way that doesn't actively harm you. It's still less useful than just doing those things between generator repair, but sure, it's technically weaponising.
I would say this definitely isn't a problem, though.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712056#Comment_3712056
It is DS adding this value as well, not just Endurance. Even if Endurance did not exist we would still see this scenario happening from DS. Also the sheer fact that high mmr swf groups do this scenario regularly in itself proves your point wrong. If it was so bad they wouldn’t be doing it. They do it because it works. It wouldn’t be so wildly common that we’re even having this post on the forums if it was a bad move to make. There’s a reason it’s a hot topic.
"High MMR SWF teams" and such also choose to be flashlight squads or to go for Head On plays. They don't do these things because they win games - they often lose games - but because trying to be aggressive and attempting to bait the killer into eating stuns/blinds is more engaging than playing it safe.
You can't weaponise DS. The most you can get is forcing the killer to slug you, which I would argue shouldn't count because it isn't to your benefit in most cases.
-
@Xernoton said:
If only I had thought about that. I don't need to pick them up. Of course!
The fact of the matter is, that they take a hit for someone else, knowing that they are protected. Sure, I can slug them but the damage is done. That other survivor makes 2.7s x 3.425 m/s = 9.25 m of distance on me. Meaning, they will get to another loop. A safe one at that because I don't catch up before that.
This means that the second half of the chase is completely reset, which puts the killer way behind schedule. Sure, a Nurse will still power through like it's nothing but killers that aren't that strong, really suffer. So their best option is to eat the DS and then tunnel that guy. Meaning that DS turns from a perk that disincentivises tunneling, towards one that incentivises it.
I'm also pretty sure that this is against the intended function of DS. In 4.6.0 DS was nerfed to deactivate upon performing a conspicuous action and it was phrased as:
- Decisive Strike - Now deactivates when performing certain actions that are not part of evading the Killer
I'm pretty sure running into the killer's face and forcing them to hit you is also not part of "evading the Killer" either.
On top of your rundown being a little exaggerated + leaving out that you have a survivor slugged which is increasing the value you get out of the increased chase, this still isn't actually DS. This is just bodyblocking.
The best case scenario when a survivor is aggressively bodyblocking is usually to just slug them and move on because they're giving you a times-two modifier on your pressure. Sure, without DS you could choose to pick them up and hook them, but it's never the best decision.
This isn't weaponising DS. This is throwing to make the killer slug you.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712049#Comment_3712049
Do you expect the DS user who bodyblocked you to just stay there doing nothing while you chase the unhooker? He'll start mending rightaway, and repairing gens just like usual. Sometimes he'll even finish those 90% gens before mending.
Quick question.
What bearing does DS have on this scenario?
No, seriously, think about that. If the DS user bodyblocked to take an Endurance hit, mended, and then disabled their DS by going to repair gens… what exactly did DS change about this scenario?
Nothing. That's just normal Endurance bodyblocking.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712047#Comment_3712047
I commented because it is possible to weaponize DS.
Do you want to discuss that or not?
If you aren't interested in discussing it there's no point engaging.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712044#Comment_3712044
You’re talking about it like it’s only good in very specific scenarios but the survivors “choose” when they want those scenarios to happen. So if they are doing it, it is that specific scenario. That slug also slows down the “overall” game, aka overall value and we’ve already talked about it isn’t always about overall value.
I mean, it is only halfway good in very specific scenarios. Even when survivors are trying to engineer those scenarios, it still breaks out in the killer's favour most of the time as long as they don't take the bait, AND all of the value you actually get when it doesn't break in the killer's favour comes from Endurance, not DS.
Even when it comes to minute to minute value, it's a trade at worst. You're trading perk value or an important generator for the opportunity to snowball, at worst. More realistically, you're just getting the value of multiple occupied survivors and wasted survivor perks.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712035#Comment_3712035
Are you forgetting that there are 4 Survivors in a match? Yes 2 Survivors not on Gens, but what about the other 2? They are not contested in any way, so those 2 gens will get done very quickly.
The only way for you to get them off gens is to quickly down the unhooker. The longer the chase goes on, the more progress they have on Gens.
All these are just a single instance. Now imagine every Survivor do this on every single hook.
Absolutely, the other two are on gens.
The problem here is that you aren't considering what the alternative is. The alternative is THREE survivors on gens.
Occupying two survivors is better than occupying one survivor. Two survivors on generators is better than three on generators. There's always going to be some gen progress being made unless you're very lucky, so your job as killer is to minimise it as much as possible while progressing your own objective,
When survivors run around after you trying and failing to bait you into eating their DS, they're making your job easier for you. Once you succeed in downing the unhooker anyway, chances are good that they've only just picked up the one trying to bodyblock, at the cost of dragging someone else off gens or using up a valuable Unbreakable charge. That's pretty good for you in the long run.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712030#Comment_3712030
Many survivors want to weaponize DS, when it's convenient for them, which is often when they have multiple health states to body block with. It saves time to just tunnel these survivors off the hook, so they don't have the time to set up their DS combo.
You will never ever convince me that it's better to ignore survivors that try to weaponize DS. Just wanted to mention that, so we're both on the same page.
Considering this whole thread is about the fact you can't weaponise DS, and you're admitting you don't want a conversation, there was no point in you commenting here to begin with.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712038#Comment_3712038
It absolutely has to do with what we’re talking about. DS being active is preventing his pick up after the body block. Whether he eats the DS or downs and continues to chase they have gained the second to second value they needed. If they didn’t have DS in that scenario it wouldn’t put the killer in the lose/lose scenario that it does.
Only if they're downed by that hit, at which point the correct play is still to slug them because it slows down the game more than picking them up.
It only breaks in the survivor's favour if we're in one of those super specific scenarios you laid out AND they only block one hit with Endurance, running away afterwards. They get that second-to-second value but they aren't gifting the killer a window to turn it around at the same time.
DS might compel them to let the killer down them, which is to their detriment.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712032#Comment_3712032
You’re severely downplaying how important that second to second value is. Getting that one gen done at that moment before all the regression can activate can be worth a lot more than you’re realizing, even when it’s not the 5th gen. That could be the break of their 3 gen and now their final 3 are on opposite sides of the map. Overall value is not always more important than second to second value. Realizing this would change your entire stance on this topic.
I mean, sure, any slight extension in chase can be a big deal in the right circumstances, but I don't see how that really affects the overall point here.
It's also worth mentioning that none of what you're describing has absolutely anything to do with DS. The slight extension to chase we're talking about comes from Endurance, not DS, because the only thing DS is doing is compelling that survivor to run around behind the killer like a headless chicken.
You can absolutely weaponise Endurance. You cannot weaponise DS.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712018#Comment_3712018
So? That means it’s a free distance for the Unhooker, meaning DS user has successfully waste Killer’s time by extending the chase. How is this not counted as weaponise DS?
Their time is the one being wasted, not the killer's.
Again, don't compare this situation to how long that chase would take without bodyblocking. That's not the thing you need to compare this to. Don't even look at the chase time, frankly.
Ask this, instead: How much repair time would the survivors get with three on generators instead of two? How much better is it for the survivor team to let the unhooked survivor heal and reset, instead of them chasing the killer around to add a few seconds to their chase with someone else?
It's not weaponising DS because the end result for the survivor team is often worse than if they'd just treated DS as a defensive tool. Even the best case scenario is an extremely marginal benefit with downsides.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712017#Comment_3712017
You’re focusing on overall value rather than second to second value. Yes getting unbreakables out of the way and pressuring two survivors at once is great but the reason to do this is buying precious seconds to finish popping a gen right before they can hit it with that PR or right before they can get their with a Pop kick ect. It is always about overall value.
Yes, correct, the overall value is the part that matters. The overall value here is much higher because you're occupying multiple survivors, which both slows down the survivor objective and puts you in a better position to progress yours.
They might pop that one generator. That's about all they're getting with so much of their team occupied, though. One generator doesn't matter unless it's the fifth, and even then you've got time.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712002#Comment_3712002
No, the counterplay is to tunnel survivors off the hook. Remember that not every survivor uses DS, and over the course of many games, the time saved by tunneling survivors that don't have DS, makes up for the time lost by tunneling survivors that have DS. Also, if a survivor does have DS, it's best to just attack them immediately, to stop whatever DS combo they might want to do.
Also, if you honestly think my strategy is bad, then you should be happy that I'm doing this strategy, because it means that, according to you, I'm worse off doing this, which is a benefit to the survivors I'm playing against.
Tunnelling survivors off the hook means chewing through their layers of anti-tunnel, one of which - DS - is now quite powerful. You then, at the end of this, have occupied one survivor for an additional hook state.
Ignoring the survivor trying to weaponise DS means you don't have to chew through their anti-tunnel layers, at most only having to hit their Endurance once if they block a doorway, and at the end of it you've occupied two survivors.
In terms of progressing your objective and slowing down the survivor objective, ignoring the survivor is the better choice.
Why would I care about the survivors you're playing against…? I'm speaking from the killer perspective here, pretty obviously.
-
@ChaosWam said:
- DS Should be reverted
- DS doesn't need to disable killer powers
- DS/OTR isn't that strong
- It's not bad to weaponize DS
- You cannot weaponize DS <
- DS isn't ran that much
- DS needs buffs
We are here on the list I see.
What?
-
@H2H said:
I think it’s pretty silly to argue that it can’t be weaponized, as it clearly can be. It’s just not often a terribly effective thing to do, especially given the conspicuous action constraint.
If the end result if them attempting to weaponise it is that it harms them, does that really count as weaponising it?
Maybe that's a pedantic nitpick with language choice, but idk, it feels like a pretty meaningful element to me.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712004#Comment_3712004
Yes it does apply.
Imagine a DS Survivor with OTR bodyblocks a hallway, and Killer is forced to hit him. Now what should the Killer do? Still going for the unhooker who’s probably miles away now, or chase the DS guy? If you chase him, and if you managed to down him in 30s, so now what? Wait for 30s for DS to expire? Or leave him and start looking other healthy Survivors? Either way, it’s a lose-lose situation for Killer, as Killer doesn’t gain any progress without hooks.
Even worse, after chasing for 30s, the DS user jumps into locker just as Killer is about to down him, and Killer is forced to wait there until Deepwound/DS are gone, otherwise it’s a free escape. Sure you may tell me to just eat DS, but that definitely counts as weaponising DS.
So tell me how is this not benefit Survivors, but counted as “pressure” for Killer?
In that scenario, you would continue to chase the unhooker, who is as far away as a survivor can get with a protection hit. Not nothing, but not terribly game-swinging either in most scenarios.
Your ultimate goal is to ignore that survivor. You hit them only when it cannot be avoided. Ignore them and they'll keep running around after you to try and force perk value, which is impossible now, so they're just wasting their own time. Exactly like flashlight squads.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711996#Comment_3711996
Survivors in high mmr and 4 man swf aren’t doing it for the funsies, there’s a reason. They do it to deny a PR proc, GE proc, delay a Pop activation, protect someone else that is on death hook ect. All things that provide more value than them going down, of which very often also run Unbreakable to remove the downside anyway.
You don't really need those perks to proc if you're occupying two survivors with the same chase, and as for Unbreakable, I think it's even more to my benefit if I'm getting survivors to waste two potentially high-impact perks for no real benefit.
A survivor on the ground may be less good for you than a survivor on the hook, but it's still significantly better than a survivor up and doing gens, which is what this outcome needs to be compared to.
The absolute best I can say for this argument is that there may be some slight back-and-forth even though it still breaks in your favour ultimately. That's kinda it. You're trading a perk proc for a different kind of value.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711994#Comment_3711994
There’s a huge difference between slugging survivor intentionally, and being forced to slug survivor. The former benefits the Killer, while the latter hurts him.
Imagine if Survivor runs toward edge of map where Killer can’t hook him, then Killer is forced to leave him. Sure he can’t do Gens to progress the game, but same goes to the Killer as he doesn’t gain any progress without hooking Survivor. All the time you spend chasing that Survivor is wasted.
I mean, sure, but why would you chase someone with DS to the edge of the map? You only even bother to hit them if you absolutely have to, otherwise you ignore them.
Unless that's just meant to be an example of slugging not being to your benefit, which granted, but that logic doesn't apply to the situation we're talking about.
EDIT: Whoops, misread who this was responding to. Still!
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/413039/you-cant-weaponise-ds
The counterplay is to tunnel every survivor off the hook, to prevent them from weaponizing DS. It's even better when you can hit a survivor during basekit BT, to deactivate any OTR they might have. Killers don't know which survivors might want to weaponize DS, so the best strategy is to just assume EVERY survivor might want to weaponize DS.
No, the counterplay is to ignore them, or to slug them in the few cases where they can bodyblock tight doorways.
That is far more to your benefit than hard tunnelling them through the tools designed to make that take more time.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711986#Comment_3711986
It is not detrimental to them. The shear fact that they choose to do it proves this. It is a net positive for them to do so. Them getting slugged is worth the hits blocked from the person you were trying to go for.
How?
Survivors choose to do things that throws the match all the time, most of the time because it's just more fun than playing it safe and doing the most optimal thing.
So, how is them getting slugged worth it? What do they gain out of this?
-
@OmegaXII said:
If the unhooked guy bodyblocks the Killer to prevent him from going after the unhooker, that’s called weaponise what’s supposed to be defensive mechanics. DS, BT, OTR, all are under the same category.
By the way, Survivors still have the option to get into the locker and force Killers to take it.
For example when a Killer downs a Survivor under pallet, a DS user that just got unhooked run straight towards the Killer and patrols the area for the save. When Killer gets close, he immediately jumps into locker. Now the Killer can’t really pick up anyone without being punished.
Of course Killer can just take the DS, but that’s definitely counted as weaponising it.
DS doesn't actually improve your bodyblocking, through. You still need the Endurance not to get downed when you take the hit, and if you do take the hit, there is nothing forcing the killer to pick you up and eat your DS. If you're just bodyblocking, you get downed, and the killer slugs you, DS is doing nothing in that scenario.
I could see that locker example being annoying, I'll give you that.
-
@Blueberry said:
No, that’s just wrong. Saying you can’t weaponize it just because you’re not “forced” to pick them up isn’t a rational statement. The shear need to sometimes hit them or down them just to get them out of your way has already delivered the intended value whether you pick them up or not. Anyone who plays at high mmr would agree it can be weaponized, this isn’t a debated fact. The only debated part is how much of an issue it is or how counterable it is.
How is it weaponised when the thing that they achieved - being hit and slugged - is detrimental to them?
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711981#Comment_3711981
That's where we come back to killers that aren't intending to tunnel.
You're trying to play fair, your opponent forces you into a situation when playing fair backfires. It sours the entire experience. You get pushed into a lose-lose situation where you either fall behind or you get backlash for tunneling.
What?
No, we already laid out that killers who aren't intending to tunnel aren't being harmed by this. They can flat out ignore the slugged survivor and it still breaks in their favour, not the survivor's.
It's not a lose-lose scenario. One of the scenarios - slug the survivor and chase someone else - is a win scenario. It used to be lose-lose when survivors could do objectives in your face, but not anymore. Now you have a win scenario to pick.
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711974#Comment_3711974
It might not be good for them, but it is still 'weaponising' it.
Kicking a wasps nest isn't a great idea either but it's still an offensive act.
I mean… sure, but at that point, it seems kind of silly to complain about it or even really talk about it. Survivors could "weaponise" a bunch of stuff if we accept that them doing so can result in throwing the game and it still counts as "weaponising".
Just seems like an unhelpful definition to use for discourse. Not exactly an impactful weapon if it hurts you and not your opponent.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711967#Comment_3711967
Because even if you completely ignore it, they just wasted at least 30 seconds of your time because the survivor you were TRYING to get, is still running away from you while you are stuck wiping blood off your weapon like an idiot. And on top of that, it gives that survivor time to reach a STRONGER part of the map. Maybe you are currently in a part of the map where a few chases have happened, and there are less pallets, maybe its a TL wall, and, oh look, body block by the guy with DS, now the guy i was chasing is at a killer shack that links to a jungle gym, guess i'm the idiot now?
See above.
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711967#Comment_3711967
1. It's a gamble whether they have DS. It's a perk, not basekit.
2. Lying on the ground is what the survivor wants. Your next best option is typically a healthy survivor some distance away by now. You've lost your chance to go for the unhooker. It is making it more difficult for the killer to not tunnel. It's now better to pick up, eat DS, then continue to chase the injured survivor.
1: Sure, but in the scenario you're describing where the survivor willingly runs over to get downed, it's a safe bet they have the perk that makes that not a terrible idea.
2: It's "some" distance but it's not that much distance, it's only a protection hit. They could definitely have made it to a new tile depending on circumstances, but in that scenario the extra time investment you put into that chase is being rewarded proportionately with extra damage to the survivor team's efficiency. You put a little more time into that chase → Two survivors are occupied instead of one.
It may be what they want but that doesn't mean it's actually all that good for them.
-
@Seraphor said:
By simply having DS it allows them to 'weaponise' bodyblocking with lower risk.
Survivors bodyblock with unhook endurance, forcing the killer to hit the unhooked survivor, but then they continue for a second hit, safe in the knowledge that they won't be hooked again.
They're entitled to use up their anti-tunnel measures this way, buying time for other survivors at their own expense, but the only viable counter for the killer is to then double down and tunnel them after burning through DS, which is understandably irritating when you're intentionally trying not to tunnel.
So yes, for a perk and a basekit mechanic that are intended and balanced around mitigating tunneling, to be used in a way that penalises non-tunnelling killers, can certainly be seen as 'weaponising' something that should be a 'defensive' measure rather than 'offensive'.
See, you've missed a step here and it's part of what baffles me about this conversation.
So, you lay out that they can bodyblock with unhook Endurance and force the killer to hit them. Solid, I'm with you so far. You say that they can then continue for a second hit, which I think is starting to stretch things a little but they can do that, so alright, I'm with you.
Then you skip straight to the killer eating DS and doubling down to tunnel them, which raises the really extremely pressing question of "why did the killer pick them up". Surely anyone in their right mind is going to realise a survivor that willingly went down like that has DS, right? So you'd just… not pick them up and continue to chase whoever you were actually focusing on, thus occupying two survivors for the price of one chase.
-
I'm going to reserve judgement on Ultimate Weapon until I can test the final version of it, considering there are some big question marks that would heavily affect how I feel about the perk.
For the other two, having sat with the changes for a little while, I'm favour of them.
Adrenaline is still a very, very strong perk, still top three strongest survivor perks in the game without a doubt. The changes just removed the most obnoxious free-escape edge cases, and made the speed boost more in line with other tools. No issues with these changes, great stuff.
Decisive Strike, from what I've seen, definitely seems more usable. I personally never really encountered that much tunnelling, but I have seen a few killers hit by DS since the changes, and it seemed to do a fair bit more to lengthen that chase. It's also still basically impossible to weaponise, so there's no real concerns.
Good changes. I'm a fan.
-
As others have pointed out, you did agree to potentially play against SWF when you queued up. Same way any survivor player agreed to potentially play against the entire killer roster when they queue up.
That being said, as long as it's after the match, I'd be in favour of this. Who knows, maybe a bunch of players will start to realise that SWF aren't the unbalanced boogeyman they've been built up with, after seeing that a lot of their easier matches were a 4-man and a lot of their harder matches were just good solos/duos.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710361#Comment_3710361
He is not aggressive, he's just saying facts.
Also which "obnoxious synergies" does this perk have? PR? 3 times per game stop touching gen before someone will get his first hook to deny this perk combo? Wow, insanely strong. Nobody even run this combo, chill.
GE+GMS? Yeah, this famous META BUILD which no one runs in the end, because it's not bad at his best scenario. Same, stop touching gen before hooking and enjoy your m1 after 12 seconds. Or run to the next gen if you failed with it.
UW+GMS? It's gone. Unless you gonna prove me that block gen that already in your TR is "obnoxious" to play against.
DMS is fine and no need pretend it's not.Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. If the things being said were facts, they'd just be both at once.
Now, let's actually look at this claim here. So you lay out three synergies, and two of them are ones I'd consider problems considering GE + DMS is actually counterable the normal way.
First, the obvious: Currently, for some reason, Pain Res activates at the start of the hook animation and not the end like it used to, so you can't counter this unless you just stop repairing as soon as someone's downed, which is at best an annoying loss of efficiency for no reason.
Moving on, though, let's say that's fixed again and we're back to none of these being problems. Great! DMS is currently fine.
For now.
Until the next one comes along.
Because the current design is always in danger of DMS being upgraded from "Mediocre but fairly designed" to "Quite strong and completely uncounterable without just not repairing to begin with". It's never disgustingly OP, you generally have room to repair safely while chases are happening, but it's always in danger of being boosted to way, way more impact than it's meant to have and with way less counterplay. Perks get changed for less than this already, a perk that forces survivors to do generators way slower even when they're countering it is at least worthy of looking at.
On top of that, DMS isn't good on its own. That's the nail in the coffin, it's a bad perk that gets elevated to unfair impact on a semi-regular basis. It's a problem, and there's no need to pretend it isn't. Nothing's gained from that, people don't even generally use DMS unless they're synergising it with something anyway.
It's better for everyone, killers included, for the perk to be updated to be more consistently useful without that possibility of unfair nonsense lurking around the corner.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710353#Comment_3710353
So you've made a perk that is good on blight, nurse, maybe onryo and dredge but that's debatable considering that they have few ways to turn this information into pressure. You've killed a unique perk with clear counterplay for yet another mediocre info perk to toss in the dumpster with darkness revealed and soon to be ultimate weapon. It's just unnecessary.
Wow, you're aggressive.
So, first of all, this perk would be relatively useful on everyone, information doesn't need to be acted on immediately for it to be valuable.
Second, highlighting 'clear counterplay' when I just laid out that my major problem with the perk is how it's constantly in danger of that counterplay being taken away is very, very silly.
Third, mediocre? I compared it to BBQ and Gearhead, which are far from mediocre. Gearhead is one of the better info perks available right now and BBQ is no slouch.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710336#Comment_3710336
Do you genuinely see anyone using this perk? Who is someone screaming on the other side of the map useful for? When survivors hear your terror radius, let go scream and pre run is it beneficial to hear the scream and see them sprint bursting away? Not for 80% of the cast. BBQ is better in every way even with the range requirement because survivors know this perk is in play immediately. Screaming from half the map away is not useful or actionable information.
You want to nerf DMS because it has synergy with a soon-to-be-dead perk or because it's alright on doctor. On doctor. Come on. I've seen a full Gen block build twice, once on artist and once on my doctor. I promise you that I'd do better with the standard pain res pop combo and if you delete DMS that's what you're pushing me into. Why? Perk variety is good. "Annoying" means very little in regards to balance. Anything your opponent does in a PVP title to thwart you is going to be annoying.
My goal with proposed balance changes is never to make a perk everyone will run. There are plenty of strong or just decent perks nobody runs, and the only things that are adopted by a large majority of players for either role tend to either fall into specific camps (like 'regression' for killer or 'chase' for survivor) or are just flat out broken.
My goal is to make a perk you could use if you wanted, and yes, this perk would absolutely be usable. On its own, absent synergies, this perk would be more useful than current DMS. It's a sidegrade to perks like BBQ and Gearhead, which are both pretty decent. You'd have all three available depending on what info you want, in what way, and for what purpose.
I do not want DMS nerfed because it has synergy with whatever perk you're referring to there and on Doctor. I don't want DMS nerfed at all, I want it reworked. I want it reworked because it's constantly in danger of being elevated to uncounterable status by pairing it with other tools.
-
@Ohyakno said:
Congratulations, you've made Bad BBQ. DMS is fine.
BBQ has a range requirement, DMS does not. BBQ has a more predictable activation requirement people can fool if they suspect it, but avoiding DMS that way would require either committing hard to the generator or not touching it at all for thirty seconds. BBQ is just an aura and can be weak to Distortion, DMS would have a scream component as well.
DMS is also not fine. It's not even currently fine, it has one of its annoying synergies right now. I would like to see it changed so those obnoxious synergies aren't looming over it, that seems like the more appropriate response than playing whack-a-mole with whatever people are pairing DMS with this time.
-
For the record, making her drones placement take longer takes away a large portion of the skill expression that she currently has.
If you want her to be more skill-based, you're achieving the opposite effect here. You're making it almost impossible for her to get quick scans with precise aim and correct positioning, and making drones only function as traps, which - while not unhealthy - is unavoidably much, much less skill-based.
As for the others, I don't think SM's instant recall is actually a problem considering getting her to recall the drone and thus removing it from whatever important structure it was in is kind of the thing you're trying to achieve. There are ways to make this more impactful, but what you want is for SM to recall it, so you don't want to discourage her from doing it by making it take forever.
-
I really, truly do not understand why anyone would complain about "weaponising" DS, I'm with OP: this is obviously a good change that will continue to make the game a little better in the long run.
"Weaponising" DS is impossible now. You never have to eat a DS that you can't avoid, you never end up stunned without either doing it consciously to get DS out of the way or making a mistake and not remembering who you hooked last. You never have to take the bait.
Weaponised DS is a non-issue. It's a relic of the past that is impossible to do in the present.
-
It's a nice bonus if you're opening the game to actually play it, though.
Plus, I like Rift Fragments, I can't play that consistently so I'm mostly reliant on the challenges to progress the Rift. Getting some extra fragments helps me progress further, especially considering I've already done all but one of the current page of challenges.
-
My favourite example to bring up in threads like these will remain the same: Alex Wesker as a legendary skin for the Mastermind, and additionally, Moira Burton as a legendary skin for Rebecca. They've already acknowledged Rev 1 with Jill's wetsuit, they should acknowledge Rev 2 as well…
-
@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707665#Comment_3707665
Ehh, I kinda disagree with the Sadako point. Her having a lullaby destroys any stealth potential she has, and sure, in-game she's undetectable far more making it more consistent, but that doesn't mean it's more effective. Against good Survivors Sadako might as well only be a Killer who can teleport and maybe get the rare jump on them with undetectable.
Dredge is supposed to be a stealthy Killer, that's why nightfall has undetectable in it. It's supposed to be his main event, overdrive, whatever you want to call it, but he gets curb-stomped because he has the loudest sounds in the game by far making it beyond easy to hear him coming from a mile away. It just feels as though BHVR did what they usually do and overestimated a killer's strength hard so they added a hard counter to him just turning him into a Killer who had stealth potential into someone who can't stealth at all. I'm sure they'll eventually fix it in a future balance patch, and I'm willing to bet on it.
But anyway, compared to those two Killers what makes SM's undetectable way better than theirs is the fact that she is a completely silent Killer. Unlike those two she doesn't have a single audible sound that can be heard when she's undetectable making it so much more easier to surprise or sneak up on survivors. You say she's always been a pseudo-stealth Killer, and I can half agree with that but not completely. In her old form, I'd argue her undetectable was a pretty forgettable part of her and was only really good whenever you managed to coral a survivor into a loop that had one of your drones in so it'd make mind gaming easier. I rarely ever got any decent stealth value from it in her old form, and that's why I never considered her to really be a stealthy Killer, just a Killer who had stealth shoved into her kit. Now in her new form being undetectable for ten seconds whenever you just place a drone down gives her so much more potential in the stealth department, and I just feel as though considering how bloated her kit is she really doesn't deserve to be a completely silent Killer when it's not entirely the point of her character.
I should've worded it better, but the main point I was getting at is how SM can get potential injuries much, much more easier than a lot of other Killers can for little to no skill involved. I shouldn't have used the word down, because you're right, it's not the same. Arguably though I wouldn't consider SM out of the two other Killers you mentioned the weakest at shutting down loops. Considering Knight is one of my mains I can provide a bit more input and say that by far he is the weakest between those three. As Knight when compared to SM when you place down a guard, there are a lot of other variables that can screw you over. First, you can't be standing too close to any wall making it much more awkward at times to place a guard down quickly, secondly, you have to enter the animation, drop the guard down, and then wake up which takes about 2.5ish seconds giving the survivors a lot of time to leave the loop leaving you powerless for a long time, especially if it's the Jailer. Then if everything does go well and your guard starts a chase (you NEED map of the realm to even do this, otherwise survivors will always outrun the detection radius) you can still easily get screwed over by how pathetic the AI is, and despite everything you've just done you could just end up not getting a hit at all because the AI suddenly decided that it's going to take a really bad detour. At worst too, the Survivor could grab the banner and end up getting a free sprint burst and endurance combo, although admittedly this doesn't happen much. SM suffers in the beginning of the game much more than Knight, but she makes up for this by being so much more time efficient, consistent, and less RNG-based than him too. The artist is undisputed, but at the same time when she does put crows on a loop there's still potential for faking her out or her messing up the placement of the birds making it still a pretty easy strat to do, but one that takes at least a decent more planning.
When I mention haste, hindered, and undetectable I should've been more specific, so let me do so. When I say those I mean the actual status effects, not things like Wraiths power or Weskers rush. Those aren't haste, I consider those to be their powers. SM gets those status effects for very little on her end making it feel terrible to play against. When she puts her drone down she completely cancels a loop and gets ten seconds of undetectable. In addition to that once you do get scanned by her power you are now giving her free tracking, constant haste until the trap falls off, and potentially hindered if you are already injured. If the other Survivors slip up then she'll be even faster, and from there holding W becomes essentially a nonviable option meaning your only play is to pre-drop or hope your in a strong part of the map. From the Survivors perspective, all she's been doing is just plopping a drone down in most loops they enter making it feel like she's doing very little and being rewarded very greatly for it, which then leads to the feeling that when compared to the Killer you as the Survivor are doing way more on your part than she is.
I'll acknowledge that SM takes a decent bit more skill than meets the eye as you need a decent grasp of the macro game, but there's no denying that out of every other Killer she ranks amongst the worst to play against because of what I mentioned. When you get flicked by a Blight or Billy or sniped by a Huntress or Unknown it's easy to acknowledge that it took at least a good amount of Skill to get that, and in comparison from the Survivors POV SM just places down a drone and gets 40 status affects from doing so which feels awful. And yeah, she's not the only Killer who can do things relatively easily but all those other Killers still arguably feel better to play against. Clown has limited bottles and can run out quickly if he keeps screwing up, Trickster can be screwed by long distances and running around corners, Legion can be split up against making his power useless, etc.
Finally, I brought up the Knight because both of those Killers have the same gameplay loop of placing things down to force survivors away from certain areas. Sure, they aren't completely the same obviously, and differ in some regards but when you look at their powers you can see a bit of similarity between them. In Chase, she's able to deny areas much easier and smoother than him, and from far away she still has the advantage, albeit not by much.
Alright, I'll tackle those points in order.
First up, we'll tackle the stealth argument:
While I'm willing to cede personal disagreements on the Sadako point, I would like to point out that Merchant isn't completely silent and Sadako is completely silent while she's Undetectable as long as the Undetectable doesn't come from being Demanifested. That being said, sure, we have different opinions on what makes a killer specifically a good stealth killer, and that's fine.
To the Dredge point and beyond, the major thing I have to say is: Why don't you consider Skull Merchant to be a stealth killer on the basis of her stealth not being very impactful, but you do consider Dredge to be a stealth killer even though its stealth is not very impactful? Isn't that an arbitrary double standard? The fact that she had Undetectable from the start, and in all iterations it's been part of her core gameplay loop (with it being the least relevant now, but still relevant), should prove that she's been intended to be at least a stealthy killer from the word go. Not like Wraith or Sadako, but more like Pig, who also gets a stealth element to complement her main power.
As a last aside, before we move on to future points, Skull Merchant's kit isn't bloated. The only status effect that isn't obviously cohesive with the rest is Deep Wound, and I don't think one extraneous effect makes a kit bloated. Still, that one should be removed, that's fair.
—
Next up, we'll look at the "shutting down loops" element, and the specific comparison to Knight in that tactic:
The first thing to say on this point is a quick correction: you say that Skull Merchant can potentially rack up injuries faster than other killers "with little to no skill involved", and that's only true if the survivors are playing terribly and running into her power over and over. If they're trying, then it takes skill. Playing Skull Merchant well against teams that aren't just giving up immediately does take skill, that's not something that gets to be ignored or denied for the sake of argument.
Moving on from that, I think you're conflating two things unnecessarily here. Yes, Knight is weaker overall than Skull Merchant, but when it comes specifically to forcing survivors away from loops, Knight is the best at it, and Skull Merchant is the weakest, with Artist in the middle. The reason for this revolves around how potent the threat is, and how much agency survivors have when reacting to it. When Knight drops a guard at a loop, the threat is extremely potent because that guard can down you if you're injured and will also activate very quickly, on top of Knight himself still being a threat separate from the guard. You have to leave immediately, you don't have any time to reposition to a more favourable side of the loop first, and this is true of basically all loops in the game barring very specific outliers.
When Artist puts a bird at a loop, it's not quite as bad because you do have the leeway to reposition a little, but the same still applies: The bird can down you so you have to leave, you only have a small window to reposition, and that's true of basically all loops- at the very least, for Artist it applies to all resources, you're only exempt here if you're able to use a different resource in the same tile like a jungle gym.
For Skull Merchant, there's a lot more grey areas. First of all, her drones don't actually shut down every loop in the game, there are plenty with high enough walls or objects that they block the beams. Second, because the beams have counterplay guards and birds don't, you can play the loop a little before leaving if you need/want to. Third, even if you do get hit with the beam once… that's just a single scan, you're only giving Merchant a little Haste and that's it unless you'd already been scanned twice. I'm not saying it isn't still annoying to go against, but it's not as potent as Artist or Knight, nor does it take away as much agency, even if leaving is still generally the right call. To cap it all off, unlike the other two, her power can't down directly, so the threat is less potent just by default even before factoring all of that in.
—
Next, we have the argument about "Haste, Hindered, and Undetectable" when compared to other killers:
This, I'll be blunt, is completely arbitrary. It's the same effect - moving faster - for the same or lesser investment from the killer. There is absolutely no difference that comes from it being the Haste status effect versus just a built-in part of the power that moves them faster; the only difference you could point to is that a lot of them (but not all) restrict movement in some way or require slowing down briefly, but that's where we necessarily need to acknowledge that they're also all much faster than Skull Merchant is with a single scan.
Again, to be blunt, it's just her power too. It's not "extra" in ways that Wraith or Wesker or Legion or whoever's movement speed isn't, they're all the same. They all have powers that speed themselves up, and some have powers that also slow survivors down, and in most cases all they really need to do is press a button and sometimes aim something, just like Skull Merchant. In most cases, it's more on the survivor to dodge than it is the killer to aim, just like Skull Merchant. The killer sets the pace of a chase, there's nothing wrong with that and it's how most killers function.
On top of that we've got some of what I alluded to in another post- things that just aren't true. Merchant's drones don't just completely shut down loops, and you don't give her constant haste and tracking for being scanned, not until you get scanned three times. Those aren't pedantic differences, they matter. She doesn't get these things for free because the survivor does have a lot of agency in avoiding the beams; it's her main counterplay and part of the mechanical deviance that would, theoretically, make her fun to play against for some players. Plenty of people like dodging hatchets and chainsaws, it's not unfathomable to think that people would equally enjoy dodging drone beams, especially when failing to dodge the beam carries a lower penalty than failing to dodge those other two.
If the survivor's perspective truly is "she's just placing drones and getting free status effects", that's their fault. At some point, there should be an expectation that you learn how to play against a killer and you stop playing into their power to make it easy for them. Nobody would say Huntress is OP because "hitting hatchets on a survivor running in a straight line is easy", or at least you'd expect that anyone who does wouldn't be taken too seriously, and a similar thing is happening with Skull Merchant. The only reasonable explanation I can come to for someone truly thinking that Skull Merchant takes no skill and her power rewards her massively for just pressing M2 is that they aren't bothering to figure out the very simple actions they should be taking to force her into putting in more effort.
—
Finally, we'll look at the last few paragraphs of your post about skill and such:
Skull Merchant has more skill expression than macro game. Actually using her drones takes skill too, and the amount of skill it takes goes up proportional to how much the survivors in your game are actually bothering to try. Knowing how beams work, knowing when to reverse the beam in a chase, tagging survivors with instant scans via good aim, knowing where drones are supposed to go, and then on top of that needing good M1 fundamentals and needing to overcome survivors employing counterplay, those things take skill too. Again, not a pedantic difference and not something that can be overlooked for the sake of argument.
As to Knight: For neither of those killers is "drop something at loop, force survivors to run away" their core gameplay loop. It's always gonna be relevant but it's not the core of their kit, and it's also the only thing they have in common. They're completely different other than one specific problem they both share, and I don't think it's particularly constructive to reduce both to only that problem and nothing else.
-
@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707676#Comment_3707676
The difference is that SM does so in one of the most unhealthy ways possible. Most Killers suffer from this, but a lot of them are at least at a somewhat "healthy-ish" state, but SM is still considered by a vast majority of the community to be completely insufferable to go up against. Of course, BHVR could just do the most boring thing and nerf her but I feel as though it just wouldn't be fair and it'd be missing the point entirely. Thats why most of the community wants her reworked.
Setting aside whether that perception actually is "the vast majority" position (I think many people neglect to consider the probably large number of people who just don't care about discourse at all, I've been guilty of it before too) I do think it's very relevant to point out that she isn't unhealthy and there really isn't anything you can point to that would make her insufferable to go against when compared to other killers.
Any time I prod one of the people who claim this for reasons why she's apparently so bad, they will inevitably say something that flat out isn't true, or they'll cite problems that other killers have/have worse, if SM even has them at all.
I don't envy BHVR here. They have a vocal percentage of their playerbase (however large that percentage is) constantly ranting about a problem that flat out doesn't exist. It's not going to be easy for them to address that, anything they do to tackle SM's actual problems won't be enough for the people who claim she's an insufferable, terrible design right now.
-
Yes, but also, few people use Maps and comparably few people play the affected killers, so I don't think it's super high priority.
I'd say that Maps need an overhaul (I made a post about that myself a little while ago) and that changing the Red Twine should be a part of that. I don't see it as a high enough priority to push a nerf on its own, though.
-
@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707567#Comment_3707567
She destroys uncoordinated Survivors extremely easily while also simultaneously getting destroyed by good teams. That alone makes her a prime target for needing a rework.
That's a lot of killers, though. Like, any killer with anything you need to interact with does that.
-
@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707186#Comment_3707186
Of course, she isn't the strongest Killer in the game and has counterplay, but that still doesn't change the fact that her power design is extremely flawed. Her power is hastily thrown together and requires BHVR to take a step back and seriously decide what they even want this Killer to be. For example, why is she a better stealth Killer than both Sadako and especially Dredge when she isn't even designed to be a stealth Killer? Why can she shut down loops faster than most Killers with just a single press of a button when Killers like Unknown and Wesker have to work for a down? Why does she have both haste, hindered, and tracking in her power when other Killers have to usually work to just get even one of those?
Sure, you can say that her Kill rate is massively inflated due to people not even bothering to try against her, but I don't entirely blame them for doing so, especially when the Skull Merchant is more often than not running a harsh build consisting of a bunch of gen regression perks that she still synergizes extremely well with. Of course, I don't think any survivor should give up against any Killer because it screws over everyone else and leads to an easy 4k most of the time but if there is such a massive problem with Survivors DCing against a Killer then it's almost always a symptom of something wrong with the Killer. I've already brought up Old Legion for example and how despite him not being an S-tier killer or whatever people still DC'd against him in mass because of how awful his power was to play against, and SM is no different.
Skull Merchant requires the Survivors to do way more than she needs to do in the match and due to that it always feels beyond frustrating whenever she wins because it feels undeserved. On the complete opposite side of the spectrum you have the Singularity who requires so much skill from the Killer player to do well with VS the survivors who just need to hold down a button to completely destroy him that it feels awful for the Killer player to play as him because well, it just doesn't feel like the Survivors deserved the win. It's because of that the Singularity is being scheduled for changes, so why not SM too? She needs to have a completely different power that requires her to put more Skill into the game and likewise be rewarded for doing so too. Also, in her current state, she makes the Knight an absolutely pointless Killer to play considering she just does almost everything he does, but better. And I'd know to considering I main him.
I can answer some of the questions in that first paragraph, and I think those answers would go some way to countering the idea that her power actually is extremely flawed.
So, first, you ask why she gets to be a better stealth killer than Sadako and Dredge when "she isn't even designed to be a stealth killer". There are two things to say to that;
First, she isn't a better stealth killer than Sadako. While Sadako does have a lullaby in her Demanifested form, her stealth is much more consistent and she's a much better user of Undetectable when she does get it. That's just flat out not a thing, she's not a better stealth killer than Sadako. I'd also point out that Dredge isn't really a stealth killer? Sure, it gets Undetectable in Nightfall, but it's still not especially stealthy even then.
Second, Skull Merchant has been a pseudo-stealth killer since day one. She has always had Undetectable in her kit, it has always been something she's designed to be. You can disagree with it being there, and there'd even be a fair conversation to be had about it, but she is designed to be a stealth killer and always has been.
Next, the question about why she can shut down loops better than other killers when Wesker and Unknown have to "work for a down". I'd like to point out that a down is not the same thing as being able to shut down a loop, but setting that aside, it's more relevant to point out that there are three killers that can do this - Merchant, Knight, Artist - and of the three, Merchant is the weakest at it. It takes the longest to start affecting the survivor, and the effect is the weakest of the three when it does. It's not nothing, and I agree it's annoying to face, but this is hardly an overwhelming problem. There's even some survivor agency and decision making when she does it.
Next, the question about Haste, Hindered, and tracking. Honestly, all I can really say to this is that most killers don't really have to try that hard to get their Haste or Haste equivalent? Wraith holds a button, Legion presses a button, Nurse holds a button, Wesker holds a button for a second then presses a button, etc etc. Most killers who can speed themselves up don't really have to work for it. After that, I'd point out that Merchant does have to work for the Hindered, she has to get four scans minimum before someone starts being slowed down, and there's quite a lot to be done to stop her doing that.
I'd also like to contest the idea that a survivor has to do far more than the killer. Dodging killer powers is the expectation some of the time and you don't see that idea applied to them - nobody's out here complaining that all Huntress has to do is hold a button and you have to keep dodging. If the Skull Merchant is playing poorly or passively, you don't have to do much at all to outplay her drones. If she's putting effort in, you have to put effort in. There's not much different about her compared to other killers, and there are killers who absolutely put way less effort in than her.
Finally, as a brief aside, not really the point of the thread or the posts so far, but what on earth does she even have in common with Knight outside of the "shut down loop" thing? They're completely different killers.
-
I'm hoping we don't get a full rework, because she really doesn't need one and it'd be really annoying to see massive unnecessary changes just because of whining.
Ideally, sometime soon-ish SM will get a series of small changes to tighten up the few minor flaws her power currently has, and then she's left alone. Hopefully enough time passing will have the majority realise there's really not much of a reason to complain about her anymore.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704841#Comment_3704841
Nice try, but we know kill rates (Nightlight and data posted by devs) and we had quite a few statements from devs.
This has nothing to do with feelings.
Be careful with your "gotcha moment"… It definetly doesn't seem smart, when it's incorrect.To be fair, they're not saying a killrate of 60%, but a winrate of 60%, which are different things.
Which does seem like a confusion in their post, reading it myself. There is a difference between those two numbers, and it matters quite a bit for conversations like this.
-
I'd highly recommend Gearhead, if you're shopping for alternate info perks. It's always been better than UW, and especially if you pair it with Lethal Pursuer, it's a pretty solid Distortion counter too.
-
For the record, as Seraphor above alluded to, the two situations you highlight that shouldn't raise your MMR don't raise your MMR. In fact, they are losses, and they lower your MMR.
I think a lot of people immediately look to the number itself when discussing where our MMR system is struggling, and I think that's misguided. As far as I can tell, the number you're assigned is pretty accurate- it's the actual matching portion that tends to cause issues.
For one, there is a pressure that exists in all matchmaking systems for all games to prioritise speed over accuracy to some degree. Despite what any individual forum member might say - myself included - the average player does not want to wait multiple minutes for a match on a regular basis. So, the system has to accept a little inaccuracy, and that's unchangeable. That being said, the larger issue imo is the fact that the matchmaker breaks too frequently.
As Seraphor above outlines, lobby dodging seems to be the biggest factor. Lobby dodging forces the system to prioritise speed WAY more than accuracy, and so you get wildly mismatched games fairly frequently when someone dodges, to varying degrees. I also suspect, though I don't know for sure, that the system widens the acceptable match range too much when there aren't that many good matches for you at off times, but to be fair I suppose that's probably necessary.
Basically, in my opinion, the MMR number works fine - there's a reason it's standard to use wins/losses like this - but the matching portion is the part that causes problems.
-
As others have said, Skull Merchant is no longer particularly potent at 3-genning since her drones don't actually block off generators anymore. However, I'd like to highlight one specific thing you said, because I do actually have an answer for what I assume was probably a rhetorical question. I'm referring to this:
"[…]why do all SM still use this strategy if it is not as good as before?"
The answer is twofold.
One, some people do continue to perform strategies and use tools that have been nerfed, even in cases where they aren't worth doing anymore. Habit is a powerful thing, and separately, not everyone keeps up with discussions and debates about things, so they're on a slow path to realising that their playstyle isn't working all on their own.
Two, 3-genning is still good for the killer player, regardless of who they're playing. It's still beneficial to know that all the gen repairs have to happen in a tight, easy to patrol area— you just can't stall the game out forever with the tactic anymore (especially not with SM), you have to actually be trying to win. This means survivors have a lot of agency in trying to beat you at it, which is a much healthier situation than before. The killer has to commit to a down and a hook because they can't stall the gens forever, meaning there's more opportunity for survivors to seize and progress the gens.
Also, as an aside, obviously not all SM players use the strategy. You do a lot of generalising in this post that you probably shouldn't, it weakens your argument because the easy shutdown is just to point out that no, not every SM does X, and not every player hates Y.
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704778#Comment_3704778
My post is focused on since when I started playing in 2018. I used to be able to play chase-oriented builds and have a lot of success. Now if I’m not camping and tunneling against a good group, the game is already decided. I don’t care about 2016 dbd in which there were instant gen repairs and no gen regression period. If you want to go that route though, killer also had things that were much stronger than anything currently in the game. Nurse had no BS recharge meter and killers could mori without hooking.
That's a fair degree to walk it back to, but it's still not exactly compelling.
It's not that hard to think of a list of broken things that were fixed since then. Old hatch, old medkits, old DS, old DH, old Haddonfield, old Object of Obsession…
Hell, most of these were fixed after I started playing a few years later, the killer role has almost exclusively been getting better over the years.
Sure, killers used to have broken stuff too. Those being removed on both sides means the respective role gets a lot better for the players that never needed them.
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704497#Comment_3704497
Broken things being removed doesn’t mean DBD is some high standard of balance.
It does mean that killer isn't in the worst spot it's ever been, though, which was the actual argument in the original post.
-
@MikhailVictor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704697#Comment_3704697
Like, you not seeing the drone rotate can't be considered a problem with
her kit, that's just a player missing a cue and making a mistake.I'm not talking about not NOTICING the drone rotate. I'm talking about the drone model actually not rotating which is a bug.
As an aside, if we're going to conclude that community hate is justified
based on her being able to just press M2 at every loop, we must also
conclude that Knight and Artist should be hated to at least the same degree, if not moreso because they're better at it than she is.Knight and Artist are relatively hated (esp. Knight) though at least you could try doing cool stuff with them (long-range patrols, long-distance crow snipes, etc).
Oh, gotcha. I mean, I'd argue that bugs shouldn't be lumped in with design criticisms, but I getcha. I can't say I've noticed that bug or the "scan outside the actual range" bug you mentioned, but if they're there, 100%, they should be fixed.
And as I said above, I specified hated as much or moreso, which they are not. For the record, Skull Merchant can also obviously go for cool stuff if the player chooses to.