gantes
gantes
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- gantes
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A "shoo" emote would be non-ironically great, because the pointing emote doesn't convey common gameplay moments such as "the killer is coming you potato" or "go do something useful pinecone"
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You're ignoring one simple fact: games EVOLVE as time goes on.
Survivors have been nerfed quite a few times across the years. Removal of double pallets (yes, that's back on a few scenarios, but far from what it was before), removal of pallet vacuum, exhaustion changes, and more recently, DS nerfs after quite a few years. Would you say they are weak now?
No, obviously. In fact, there's nothing more prevalent on these forums than people bitching about survivors - except, maybe, Legion mains bitching about Legion.
The fact is that the game has evolved. The playerbase is better than it was years ago. And the same applies to Nurse players.
The playerbase getting better benefits both survivors, since they've become more and more optimal with making the most of each pallet (the good ones) and Nurse players because she ignores the core defense mechanic for survivors and the only thing between her and a hit is her own skill (or lack of skill).
Besides, the entire point of the Nurse debate gravitates around the highest level of Nurses. It's NOT your average Nurse player. Average Nurses are actually fun to play against because of the amount of mistakes they make, both in game sense and execution, which offsets how overwhelmingly powerful her kit is a little bit. It doesn't change the fact that a mediocre Nurse is still more powerful than the majority of killers though. But that's a talk for another thread.
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As people have said multiple times, the only healthy way of dealing with SWF is giving solo survivors more info to work with and buffing killers accordingly.
Even though it's been a painfully slow process, the devs already said they're looking on ways to do that.
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Nothing meaningful will happen to the Spirit so you guys can chill
Besides, there's absolutely NO WAY to butcher Nurse with her current kit. They're only gonna make small changes, they said. What small change can they do to butcher her? It's impossible. Her kit is inherently strong, you don't make her significantly weaker without changing core mechanics, which they won't do.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/600217#Comment_600217
Killers are the only ones who have discussions which take a holistic approach to game-balance. You'll find it's survivors almost exclusively who frame balance in terms of 'specific X feature neets specific Y change' without regard to the knock-on impacts of it.
Copypasta?
The average playerbase of the game is extremely one-sided and can't see nuance on anything, That's especially true for this game because of its asymetrical nature.
It's very hard to have constructive opinions in this game without playing both sides, and most people don't. And even some who do are still biased because they like one side more. The Nurse issue is actually one of the things that some killer mains were complaining about, and in my experience, if killer mains complain about a killer-specific issue being too strong it's because it's legit busted.
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@brokedownpalace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/599925#Comment_599925
If you see it that way, that it's really that bad.. then why do you keep playing? Why keep posting here? I just don't understand. I see so many people say "I'm so done with this game, the devs are ruining it, I'm not playing anymore! ...oh but I'll still come to the forum to 'check in' once in a while" .. which really ends up translating to "I'm going to throw a temper tantrum, not post for a week and then come back to complain every single day." It blows my mind.
Because people LOVE drama and LOVE complaining. Being angry is the new trendy form of entertainment nowadays.
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@KaoMinerva said:
Funny, when it's time to BALANCE around R1, it's making the STRONGEST killer weaker, yet SWF, GEN RUSHING, LOOPING, ETC will have to wait!
Well yes, balance does involve nerfing things that are too strong. I thought that was pretty obvious.
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"People only complain because they can't deal with stuff!"
"All survivor mains are biased and EVIL!!!!!"
God, I do wish I had such a simplistic and non-nuanced world view as some of you seem to have. It must be easier living that way.
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@Dehitay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/599637#Comment_599637
I'm ok with them balancing the nurse, but I heavily disagree that they should take care of the nurse before they take care of swf. Unlike the nurse, swf requires no skill, only effort to be oppressive. And their reasoning for tackling the nurse was the longstanding knowledge of imbalance and player feedback. But there's definitely been way more feedback about swf groups than the nurse, and knowledge of swf groups being problematic has existed before they were even added to the game acknowledged by BHVR themselves even though they've since deleted the evidence. The fact that they're doing the nurse before swf is ridiculous in my opinion. I honestly don't believe balancing swf to be that difficult unless you're seriously uncreative.
Firstly, saying SWF doesn't require skill is... questionable.
All players need to play well to form the rare, nightmare scenario 4-man tryhard squad people complain about so much but only encounter once every 100 games.
Secondly, as I said, they probably can't deal with SWF first. People suggest solutions here everyday, but they're all either bad or impossible to apply without making the game objectively worse.
People rage about stuff in this game too much without having the least amount of game design knowledge to figure out how to solve anything.
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He's awesome.
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The amount of game knowledge and skill from the playerbase has reached a point where we deserve some high level balancing. Yes, that DOES mean touching the Nurse. It's as objective as anything in this game gets, balance wise. That also means buffing the weaker killers.
We just got an awesome rework that pulled a killer out of the gutter and into playability and people already found something else to complain, ffs
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No balance decision in this game has ever been made around the highest level of play, and that's the problem.
Nurse being nerfed IS based around the highest level of play, so it's fine.
What is your standard to call killers weak? Sure, if you compare them to Nurse, GF and Plague are weak. But they're not weak on their own rights, and not weak when compared to the average killer in this game. They're both solidly mid tier, which is as high as any M1 no mobility killer can get in this game, but that's another, completely different problem. It's a game design problem. Plague was never a contender to break into the elite division above mid rank in this game. She never will as long as she can't use Corrupt Intervention in more matches than not. Call her boring, but calling her low tier is dishonest.
We should be thankful that FINALLY we get some resemblance of high level balancing in this game. Freddy's nerfs from back then wouldn't fly nowadays, especially because a killer like Freddy wouldn't get released. And I hope they learned from Legion as well. Both those iterations have no place in this game.
They're tackling the outliers now. Chainsaw bros add-ons, Nurse, Doctor... I'm positively surprised, and we should celebrate that we're getting actual balance for once.
And quite frankly, considering how much the devs make balance changes on a whim without taking our opinions into consideration, the fact that they listened to THE COMMUNITY, not only survivor mains, about the Nurse shows that she's out of line.
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Changing SWF is, by nature, much harder than changing the Nurse. One is changing a single killer, the other is revamping how half of the game works.
I do think both need changes though. For now, they can't do everything at once, and I'm happy they're tackling the Nurse first since she's so highly picked at high ranks and an efficient 4-man squad is so rare.
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The lullaby is supposed to be one of the incentives to wake up.
The lullaby is supposed to be unnerving and give you less information. It's part of his power. You can always wake up if you dislike it, there are plenty of ways to wake up vs Freddy.
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@Spicybarbecue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/598141#Comment_598141
yeah, clearly you dnt play at red ranks, games only last 3-4 min max (with ruin) so you are basically saying he shouldn't be able to teleport
woosh
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DUDE, Doctor knowing where you are means very little because as long as it's a loopable killer, it doesn't matter if they know where you are in most scenarios.
Tracking is EXTREMELY overrated in this game unless it's early game/endgame Whispers. Tracking comes from game knowledge and common sense most of the time. You SHOULD know where to be and when after a few tens of hours as killer.
A good killer won't be fooled by stealth too much, but will still struggle against looping. It matters very little that Nurse is "weak" vs stealth. When she finds you, you're dead.
Unless she sucks.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/593275#Comment_593275
Freddy just required a different play style, the hit and run play style made him effective.
The optimal way to play old Freddy was by stalling the hell out of games. That's the only way he could win against COMPETENT survivors, and just like Hostage Doctor, it takes a specific kind of person to enjoy playing and literally no one enjoys playing against.
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Wraith just needs to be faster baseline when cloaked. He's fine and his design is awesome.
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He's badass now. Freddy's my favorite horror movie villain ever, and I can finally play him without feeling like a joke or merely a nuisance designed to bore everyone into oblivion.
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I can only dream of the day people will stop defending the abomination that was old Freddy.
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IMO Spirit isn't OP because she has a clear weakness: if she opts to use her power to have map pressure, it cripples her in chases.
I'd be super happy if they shifted her power away from chases and into map pressure. We need more killers who can apply pressure anyway. She should obvs stay good in chases, because that's part of what makes her a good killer. Just shift the power a bit.
Other than that, if she lost collision during phasing, she'd be better to face. I don't think she NEEDS nerfs because she has weaknesses, she's just unfun to play against in chases.
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@Sluzzy If you like the hours analogy so much, fine. A 3k hour Nurse shouldn't automatically beat 3k hour Survivors. And that's what happens.
A god Nurse takes all the hours you spent learning survivor and throws that in the garbage. That's not good balance.
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Honestly, instead of a new realm I'd prefer if they just added another map to an existing realm and reworked the realm in the process.
Edit: with the "new map" from the next chapter I mean.
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I mean, to be fair it wasn't a nerf because that change was only up for test in the PTB. She's the same as she is in live.
That being said, it's a buff that would be a nice change and wouldn't break her at all. There was no need to pull it back.
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@Peanits is the Enduring shadow nerf going to get fixed too? Everyone I've talked about says it feels weaker vs pallets, instead of slightly stronger as it was supposed to be after the changes.
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@Jdsgames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/592485#Comment_592485
I agree with this for about 85% of it. However, in the case of nurse. You have nurse mains saying she is OP, survivors dcing/giving up simply because it is a nurse, killers avoiding playing nurse knowing it is brutal to play as on the survivor side, and the best logical argument for counters for the nurse is 'Use Brain' or 'Break LOS' in which has been all but proven to only work for so long. Not to mention everyone calls the killer 'god' tier.
Now, as many people say it takes skill to use nurse. I couldn't disagree with that statement more. It takes muscle memory to get down the blink distance. It takes basic predictions that you make with ALL killers to be god tier.
The only time a nurse that really loses is either full swf that can pound out generators or the nurse player themselves is god awful. However, with the swf group usually the play is to try and at least get someone out. You can say 'nurse counters swf', however, this again makes her viable for all the wrong reasons.
I agree with that.
That's why I said people freak out unnecessarily when you debate Nurse nerfs. She should be nerfed or adjusted or whatever term you prefer, but people are against that simply because the "us vs them" circlejerk is so strong in this community.
That's the problem with the asymetrical aspect of this game really. In any other game, everybody plays the same game and people understand what they're talking about. In this community, most people are just focused on one side and have no idea of how to look at things as a whole to say what's too strong or not.
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No changes to Freddy's block add-ons? There's little to no reason to run them, not even in "fun" builds. No one I talked to was hyped about them.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I like how the devs ignore all the topics related to rebalancing of the Nurse. They are doing their best to dodge this hot potato ;D.
The devs are EXTREMELY conservative to make balance changes in this game, probably because they know that 1. the community is so entitled on both sides it causes an outrage every time something balance-related is released and 2. they know they don't have the manpower and time to revisit said changes efficiently if they backfire.
I do think this game would be miles better with a small, dedicated balance team that listens to good players, but the community isn't mature enough for that, clearly. It's obvious to see every time someone suggests nerfs to Nurse or anything that makes looping slightly weaker. The entitlement in this community is absurd.
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no
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591623#Comment_591623
I think Zubat would lose if he played vs. four Zubats. I honestly believe that. Good luck finding such a match.
If there are four survivors playing optimally and using the best toolboxes, the Nurse should be allowed to use Omegablink.
And then win because nothing beats Omegablink unless the Nurse player themselves.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591579#Comment_591579
That was actually a good example of a smart survivor exploiting the nurse's weakness. Most survivors, probably like yourself, would have continued running in the wide open field.
And a god Nurse wouldn't have cared about that.
I stand by my point. Find a video of a top level Nurse getting consistently countered. I know of Zubat, but if you know someone of a similar level, by all means, bring footage of that person being countered. Until then, I only see mediocre Nurses getting clapped by good survivors, which isn't a good gauge of how strong she is.
Who am I kidding, you won't find footage of that. Because it doesn't happen.
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@FredKrueger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591469#Comment_591469
Go get a whamburger and some French cries then. You don't want a solution, you don't wanna learn how to counter play, you just want nerfs.... Go play fortnite then dude.... I'm out. This forum is all hate towards nurse, and when someone shows you her counter play, you still deny it. When someone trys explaining it, you throw your fingers in your ears and scream NERF! NERF! NERF! Later dudes.... This is nothing but bait and I fell for it...
You provided an example of a bad nurse getting smacked.
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I mean, if we got to the level of comparing Nurse to BUBBA I think there's nothing of value to be gained in this discussion.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591467#Comment_591467
That's probably the worst example I've ever seen.
That's exactly the level of "proof" we have that Nurse is counterable.
Spoiler: it makes their point look even weaker.
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The discussion is about god Nurses, not your average killer that couldn't get into red ranks, picked up the Nurse and climbed to rank 1 because you can do that while being mediocre with her
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Wait, are people still saying they can counter the Nurse in chases WITHOUT posting videos of that working against a Nurse player of, let's say, Zubat's level?
Jfc sometimes staying away from these forums is the ultimate form of self-care
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591278#Comment_591278
I’d like to see him play add-onless too, I’d actually like both sides to go vanilla.
Both sides going vanilla is pretty useless for the community because no one plays perkless, unless their memeing/challenging themselves. Not realistic.
I do think add-onless is a must though.
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@Swiftblade131 said:
So your telling me...
Someone got good, at a highly skill based character? And they shouldn't get the things they are working for?
Are you telling me that everyone in all those matches where at their A game? Counting kills in a time frame isn't an experiment. We need the extremes, god tier killer and survivors facing off, new survivors vs a new nurse player. We need all the in between, we need perk-less runs, we need OP addons and perk runs.
Testing isn't done in minutes, hours, or even a day, especially with things that can vary, such as, killer and survivor/the individual skill level of each player, where they all solo? 2 teams of 2? A 4 man SWF? What were the perks being used? How many used X perks, what maps?
These are things that should be test thoroughly, for every killer and it's match ups, not just cause some people can't face a certain character.
But of course, let's not do any real testing. I got a 4k with Freddy so he's viable amiright?
I don't give a f if someone has 10k hours on Nurse. Mastering a killer should NOT guarantee you a 4k every time.
Ranking up and winning a lot of games is a reward for mastering a killer. Killing everyone every time - even good survivors - is a symptom of a pretty serious design problem.
OP, I didn't read the whole thread because I didn't want to read the mental gymnastics of people defending the Nurse (that gets old really fast) but if you didn't provide a link or something like that, please do. It's an useful resource for the community. If the "experiment" keeps going the way it's going, it pretty much helps to confirm what reasonable people know already - that the only thing in the way of a Nurse player and consistent 4Ks is the Nurse player themselves and their own mess-ups.
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@DaS_only said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589813#Comment_589813
It is, it allows pototates to be at Red ranks. It's simple and logical.
Unless u want to make the claim that potatoes are allowed to be in red ranks. Do u want to make that claim?
I know it hurts to hear the truth sometimes, but you're probably getting paired with fellow survivors on your skill level bud.
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Billy should be left the f alone.
He's probably the only killer in the entire game whose base kit is 100% fine.
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@LordGlint said:
Feel like the meta ppl talk about is simply because theyre too afraid to think outside the box a lil. I hit rank 1 on a non-meta killer without even having ruin unlocked yet. With the upcoming map changes, I expect to see alot of killers become a whole lot scarier.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
Zubat made it to rank 1 without perks or add-ons. Should all killer perks and add-ons be disabled then?
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@GrootDude said:
@gantes it doesn’t hurt most Spirit players since you can hear footsteps, at least I can hear survivors footsteps.
It doesn't because just like Nurse, she doesn't have reliable, consistent counterplay.
I said it really harms her because the first chase against every person with Iron Will is gonna probably be a nightmare, and with how important time management is in this game, it can turn a game around if multiple people have it. Besides, things like window/pallet jukes get better if you have Iron Will.
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Besides, your point can be turned around quite easily. Iron Will REALLY harms Spirit, and Nurse doesn't really care about it because she cares about very little in this game.
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You can counter neither without Iron Will.
Besides, in order to finish chases as fast as Nurse, with no Iron Will involved, Spirit needs to either 1. get a hit without her power early or 2. use her power in incredibly short bursts, which can backfire because you need to be a lot more precise.
Nurse can finish chases faster assuming the killer player is good and has true map pressure. Spirit has pseudo pressure and takes longer to finish chases. Still #2, but the gap is pretty big, especially with no add-ons.
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If you think about it, safety pipping for both sides makes a TON of sense in this game.
There is no clear criteria for winning or losing on DBD. It's as subjective as it gets. You may have your own personal criteria (I'm decently happy when I escape as survivor, and very happy when I kill everyone as killer) but the game doesn't downright offer you a "victory" screen.
There are gray areas and safety pipping represents that.
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@martin27 said:
Sometimes i have to rely of those safety pips when getting tunneled/camped or being paired up with potatoes.
I agree. The notion of safety pipping is important in a game where your skill isn't the only factor on your success.
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Unfortunately, killer is pretty much mandatory for most killers, and the other stalling perks (sloppy, pop) most of the time are only good on killers who don't need Ruin anyway.
I hope visiting that is part of their plan somehow, because as it is killers are VERY limited to a few specific builds if they want to compete against very good survivors. Yes, there is a meta for surv perks too, but it's not as constraining as most killers.
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It's waaaay to easy to black pip. I tried it by myself:
Not how it works.
The way rank distribution works is they want a specific proportion of players on each rank range. That's how they determine how hard or easy ranking up should be.
I find ranking up as killer just as easy until purple ranks, unless you're playing one of the unfortunate killers with bugged emblems.
What needs to be done to improve solo play is to change some fundamental parts of game design, not change the ranking system. Especially considering the survivor system is fine when compared to killers (it should not be harder to rank up with some killers while having the exact same performance. A 4k as anything with an instadown can be a black pip, and a 2k with Legion will most likely be a pip everytime).
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I agree. Small updates can go a LONG way on making some killers absurdly better.