gantes
gantes
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- gantes
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Besides, he's the most boring killer to go against and your fun isn't the only thing that matters.
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The truth is, his design is garbage and they're not gonna let a licensed character with an objectively garbage design.
People have been begging (and rightfully so) for this rework for ages now. Now we're getting it.
The only people defending Freddy's current iteration either struggle way too much with tracking or are extremely afraid of change.
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@miaasma but why would people do that when they can just complain about something that not only isn't even up for testing yet but also is objectively a net buff because map pressure is literally the most important thing in this game?
It's kinda important to wait before making judgements but it's waaaay more important to ensure that the devs have every reason not to listen to us :^)
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@Lightsaber09 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/559759#Comment_559759
Everyone says survivors+ 1, wht not just say the amount of players in the game. That includes the killer and makes up for this "survivor plus 1" thing
I prefer the Evil Dwight calculation of total generators done (metal generators+meat generators) ammounting to five, in which meat generators=dead survivors.
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@DBDbuildsYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/559223#Comment_559223
I don't think you are really reading the point here, it is extremely common for an average dbd player to take the killer on a ride for at least 60 seconds. You don't need to be a god looper to do so, you need to be average.
60 seconds is an eternity in dbd, if by any chance you meet GOOD survivors this is going to take even 80 seconds, which is a full gen.
It is obviously not balanced, a 1/4 of a team should not be able to take so much of a the FULL other team time.
This abomination is indefensible
If you're willingly chasing an average survivor into a setup that will waste 60 seconds of your time you're a ######### killer.
Strategy is also part of the game. Don't turn off your brain and expect to succeed.
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Also ask any good killer player and they'll tell you the most fun part of the game is chasing and mindgaming tiles.
Not our fault you're bad and want survivors to run on a straight line so you can down them without earning it.
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@DBDbuildsYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/559072#Comment_559072
How has this anything to do with my argument? Chases for the survivor sidecannot be the focal point of a game because the focal point is escaping.
You cannot balance for FUN, this is NOT A 1 vs 1. A Survivor can equal a killer only in a 1 vs 1, in a 4 vs 1 with looping the game isn't balanced as a single element can verse the ENTIRETY OF THE WHOLE ENEMY TEAM.
How is this ok in any way shape or form?
You're seriously suggesting it's more important that a party game full of RNG is "competitive" than fun. OK, that's what the devs should do if they want their game to die.
People come to DBD for the horror and stay for the action aspect. They already said they're reworking the maps to have more mindgameable loops. Other than that, if you kill looping and the mindgames that come with it, you kill the game. Period.
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Sure, take all skill away from chases.
That way survivor gameplay will be dropping pallets as soon as they pass through them while everyone else holds M1.
It'll surely not harm the game if the part most players like the most (chases) gets dumbed down to oblivion.
Jesus Christ these forums are a joke sometimes.
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"Freddy rework seems like a nerf before we even know all the details of the rework", episode 259 of "Why the devs don't listen to us".
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/558325#Comment_558325
@gantes except that PGTW goes hand in hand with learning the necessary skills for better map/gen pressure, and more sensible patrols, leaving Ruin floating between complimentary and redundant.
I’m not completely dismissing Ruin, just that it becomes unnecessary (even in high ranks) once better pressure skills are learned. Ruin is popular, i get it, but it’s often used hand in hand with poor patrol and poor choices in regards to when to persist in a chase or when to resume pressure. Which only further validates the long held myth that Ruin is necessary at high ranks because when killers don’t equip it, or it’s cleansed too early, they genuinely don’t know what to do to gain control of the game other than cross their fingers for a snowball after their first down.
Dude, the best players still use Ruin on most killers. Are you really trying to tell me that people who've been rank 1 at killer for literal years don't know how to patrol?
Good luck patrolling as any M1 no mobility killer on most maps.
Until I see footage of any mid to lower tier killer consistently performing at red ranks vs efficient survivors without Ruin, I'm still gonna say it's necessary and most reasonable people will agree.
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@White_Owl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/558325#Comment_558325
The killer can open the gates. Just saying...
That's a great and obvious way to tell the survivors to gtfo.
Not happening against good survivors.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/553322#Comment_553322
@Pierpalle This post is so full of misinformation.
"Hillbilly eats pallets if good" First of all, this is true for all killers. Respecting pallets is bad game play in general for a killer. Secondly, eating a pallet doesn't mean you didn't get looped in the first place.
"spirit: and her crazy mind games" Mind games work both ways. And her power as a decent cooldown so you can be looped between cooldowns.
"hag: set traps, forcing you to leave the loop." Dude, if you are putting down traps as you are being looped then you are playing hag wrong. Yes, it can break a loop, but you also give the survivor time to run to the next loop and you didn't take care of the pallet so that can bit you later. The idea with hag is to place your traps BEFORE you are in a chase so you can end the chase fast. But at least you are right in the sense that if you are being looped as hag then you are playing her wrong.
Trapper: same as hag." Everything I said about hag, but x10. You can only carry a couple of traps even with add ons. And if you are dropping traps in a chase as The Trapper to break a loop then you are severely misplaying this killer.
"Pig: dash attack if used properly forces you to leave the loop." This does work for some loops, but there are many loops that this is ineffective and will only waste more of your time attempting.
"plague: vomits at distance+ red vomit so loopable only if you are in a tall loop." Red vomit it is a bad idea to try looping Plague unless there are tall objects, but green vomit (which is the majority of the game) looping is still 100% doable. Sure eventually you'll get broken, but you will have wasted a lot of the killers time and for her to put you in the dying state she still has to land a basic attack. Basically, 90% of the game Plague is loopable.
"huntress: throws hatchets, unloopable." This really isn't true. Sure, there are some objects that you can't loop huntress around, but there are many environmental objects that are high enough if the survivor ducks when the killer throws her hatchet she will miss. At the very least the killers skill can reduce looping, but huntress isn't immune.
"doctor: hardly loopable if good." Trying to shock the survivor just before they get to a pallet will backfire more often than not. Doctor is definitely loopable.
"clown: throws bottles, forces you to change loop or go into the toxic smoke which slows you down and you'll get hit." Clown bottles help with looping, but again he isn't immune to looping.
What mindgames are there to be had with Spirit if you don't have Iron Will
I'm legit curious as a Spirit player
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Lightburn being hard to use on Nurse and almost guaranteed on Wraith is one of the best examples of this game's whack balance choices
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@miaasma said:
the main issue is map design
improve maps and more killers will become viable against better groups of players
I mean, maybe.
Things will improve, but the issue of how optimal doing gens by yourself in different extremes of the map won't be solved.
I know it's a rare scenario so I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that's the peak of efficiency for survivors and killers with no mobility can't really deal with that strat.
But for your average daily play, even at red ranks, the map reworks will probably go a LONG way in improving low tier killer viability.
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@miaasma said:
you couldn't possibly be more wrong about there being no "good" leatherface or doctor players at high ranks
Of course there are. And they can perform very well if survivors don't play tryhard style and they get a decent map RNG.
All killers can be 'good'. Not all killers can be as good as a coordinated group of survivors. Most can't really.
If you're talking about casually good survivors playing for fun, all killers can compete.
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If you take a highest level killer player and put him against 4 highest level survivor players who are playing efficiently (doing gens alone, optimizing chases) and not memeing, every single M1 killer will lose 95% of the time.
Purple rank solo survivor memesters aren't the standard for high level play in the game. Even I can pick up Trapper or Doctor and 4k at purple ranks sometimes because 1. they aren't hard to play and 2. those aren't high level survivors taking the game seriously.
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And NOED isn't even a good perk ffs
You get one down, the survivors either leave or cleanse the totem instantly because they have nothing else to do in the endgame and they know where it is
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Every survivor and their mothers 99% gates now instead of opening them right away. Blood Warden does nothing against competent survivors most of the time.
Pop requires you to phisically go to and kick a highly progressed gen. It's good, but nowhere near as universal as ruin.
People talk ######### about Ruin all the time but it's still the most used killer perk by red rank survivors by quite a large margin. No other perk applies global pressure like Ruin. Survivors merely touching totems gain you time. Even if each survivor misses one great skill check all game, that's still 16 seconds worth of gen time, plus the time with the gen progression stop, without you doing absolutely nothing. Not to mention the great skill check bonus they don't get.
It's easy to underestimate the impact a perk has when you don't see it phisically happening, but Ruin is still the most high impact perk for killers with no mobility, period. Until more good killer perks start being made, there is no opportunity cost whatsoever for running it.
If you play Nurse, Billy, Spirit or Hag, I understand not appreciating Ruin as much. But it is ABSOLUTELY required against good survivors. If you don't think so, you clearly don't play vs good survivors with mediocre to bad killers.
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@gambit92 said:
My only question to all those complaining about balancing is how long you guys been playing the game. Ive been playing since mike first came out. Before Franklin's. Before slow vault fast vault only. Before insta blind bulb. Before double pallets were removed. Before exhaustion was a thing. Before broken was a thing. Not just survivor. Machine gun build on Mike or phil. Go play about that time and I'll be here waiting for you to congratulate the devs on the balancing they've done. The recent patches to mettle of man shows they are working. And as stated before its not an esports game. Its one of the last couple CAAUAL games i truly enjoy playing. And i think its just fine lately with the variety of builds, characters, and experiences.
"it was worse before" doesn't mean anything in this discussion.
In fact, it only means that they CAN do better if they want to, so we should always suggest improvements and complain about what isn't right.
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To each their own I guess. She's strong and has a cool design but I don't find her very fun to play. While I can get results with Spirit and Hag (even if I have to work a bit harder), I don't feel like playing Nurse.
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Changing the way you play the game because of BP offerings ruin the fun for me in some scenarios.
Sure, I may be a bit more altruistic as survivor, and I don't slug as much as killer, but you can't ask people to change the way they play too much because of offerings.
Not everyone has the same goals as you in the game.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
You guys do need to realize that balancing for top ranks doesn't mean ignoring the other ranks.
There are ways to make sure that a given change will effect some ranks more than others. And no I don't mean by changing the game rules depending on your rank.
Basically there is just one assumption you need to make:
High level players will do what is optimal while low level players will do what is easy.
So if you can identify what is optimal and what is easy, and then balance both of them up against each other (optimal survivor play is balanced against optimal killer play and easy survivor play is balanced against easy killer play) then you have a game that is balanced for the high level but remains fun at the low ranks.
For example, if a Killer buff makes the game too hard for low ranks, then that means we need more mechanically difficult interactions or more punishment on failing existing interactions.
The Legion change is a good example. Specifically the stun he gets when missing an attack, an Optimal Killer will never be stunned by that, however a new Killer will often misjudge distances and miss. Thus this change will mostly only effect low to mid ranks (yes console is an exception but still)
Another approach is to buff low skill actions but keep them worse than what the optimal outcome is. Such as making good skill checks give a 1% progression bonus or reducing the failed skillcheck penalty.
There is also QoL changes that make things easier to execute without changing the mechanical interactions themselves. For example the ghostface change that made detecting him easier to pull off. Or the indication addons for doctor and nurse. Plus a number of subtle UI things that make it easy to know what is doing what where otherwise only the high level players would have that information. These changes don't effect the balance of the game but still will improve the performance of low skill players.
However, none of these tricks will work for the higher ranks. The only thing that will make the high ranks balanced is just making a balanced game. That's why you need to balance around the high ranks, because low rank suffering can be fixed independently.
You definitely have the right mentality.
My only problem is that optimal play for survivors at high ranks is boring af and I'd like that to change.
As long as it becomes less optimal to spread around, rush gens and ignore the killer, the game could be good when balanced at the highest level. Otherwise it becomes impossible to balance the bad killers to compete at high ranks without making them pubstompers. Map pressure creates too big of a gap between killers.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/556724#Comment_556724
I'm not calling it that. However, if you manage to properly balance a game (on purpose, not by random chance), that shows you understand how it works. The act of balancing provides information that can then be used to change the meta.
PS: I think the existence of metas is bad for a game because metas are boring in and of themselves, so we'll have to agree to disagree on the "healthy metas" bit.
But competitive games will always develop metas. As long as good players are playing the game, they will emerge.
I'm not a big fan either, especially when they're too restrictive or last for too long, but if we want a competitive game, metas are just a part of the package.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/556717#Comment_556717
It's easier to change the optimal playstyle if the game is balanced beforehand, since you'll have a better understanding of how your changes can impact the game.
I can kinda agree on that, it's more of a question of semantics. Because I'm not sure you can call changing the way the game is played merely "balance". It's more of a "game philosophy" thing.
For all the hallmark eSports games that are fun, engaging and interactive at the highest level and have healthy metas overall (MOBAs, fighting games, you name it) it's very reasonable to balance mostly around the highest level and expect the players to improve.
I'm not sure DBD gets in that group of games without serious changes though. No one wants to get good if the way the game is played at the highest level isn't fun.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/556687#Comment_556687
Losing because the game is tilted against you is not fun.
I know it's not. You know what else is not fun? Any aspect of this game at a high level.
Honestly, think about how the optimal playstyle for survivors is right now. Spreading out, not interacting with the killer, holding M1 and leaving.
Until that changes, there's no point trying to balance at the highest level. Changes like map reworks are obviously well granted and necessary, obviously, but those are already happening. Thing is, the "highest level" of this game is probably 0.5% of people playing optimally. Even good players don't like playing optimally as survivor because it sucks d.
This game needs to be able to call itself competitive BEFORE balancing at the highest level.
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This is not an eSports game,
This is not an eSports game.
I repeat, this is not an eSports game.
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Only on killers with high map pressure and fast downs I.e the killers who already don't need Ruin anyway
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No reason to buff what is already the best and most used exhaustion perk.
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As I said, shouldn't be reportable, shouldn't be bannable, shouldn't be encouraged or allowed by game design either,
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@Sentry said:
@gantes
I dont want this change to cause more rtb kills i want it to stop genrush on kill who main purpose is to slow down the game. Also, 5-10 seconds isnt that big unless they go through gens super fast.
It's also a pubstomp change that will absolutely wreck low level survivors who don't need to be nerfed further and will do nothing against high level players.
The more I think about this idea the more I'm convinced it's terrible.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/555250#Comment_555250
IMO, I don't think the Traps do their job well enough. I get that there's an element of RNG behind it, but I think the range is a bit too wide. Sometimes the Traps can actually slow the game down effectively, and sometimes they just flop. If the Trap could have a slightly better worst-case scenario, I think that would help a fair bit. Could make it so the first Trap auto-fails, or they could make RSN2 base-kit. Something to make their stalling just a tad more consistent.
I don't think base kit timer reductions are the way to go (not even conditional ones like this) because they don't actually make the Traps any better at stalling; they just make it more likely that Traps kill. When they don't (which will still be often since, as you said, Traps are not designed to kill), they are no better than they currently are at stalling.
All that being said, I do agree that her ambush is poo-poo and probably needs to be buffed before the RBTs (though if I am being honest, the first thing I want to see happen to the Pig is a friggin' add-on revision because they suuuuuuck).
I honestly don't get why RSN2 isn't baseline yet. It's probably the only major problem with her traps, other than RNG.
I think making the first search auto fail could be interesting. I don't know how they'd do that with the current way the boxes are programmed (for those who don't know, the game pre-selects which box holds the key for each trap) but it's an interesting idea.
I honestly don't get how her add-ons aren't a higher priority either. The devs said some time ago that Nurse, Doctor and Bubba were the next ones on the radar, but tbh I'd say Pig should be looked into before Nurse and Doctor. Doctor has more usable addons than her. Nurse is BS, but you know what is also BS? Having add-ons that harm your game like some of the Pig ones or some that should be basekit already.
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If people really want her trapps buffed it's better to give her 6 for all I care. Not to introduce a gimmick that ultimately promotes bad gameplay.
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@Sentry said:
The Devs have send in there stream multiple times she is meant to stall. She cant do that because people will pop generators to quickly. The reason I say this is because the pig cant do the job she was intend to do. If you power is to slow down the game, should it be able to stop gen rushing?
Nothing is able to stop gen rushing because of how the game works. It's not because her ability is weak.
It still takes one person off generators until they take off the trap, which is more than any other killer does with their own ability.
The other part of her ability should be buffed BEFORE you change the part that's actually working, period. If you start forcing survivors to run around doing nothing because they can't do the gens, it's just ######### game design.
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Besides, people complain A LOT about survivors having power over a killer's power. And RBTs are the part of her kit that relies the least on the killer player's skill.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/555143#Comment_555143
bruh he was not lashing out at all. chill. Her stealth does need a buff, but this change wouldn't be that big a deal, especially when it could be ironed out too be better. How many times, honest too god, have you seen someone die too a bear trap? It's too RNG reliant too be a good gen stopper since it could take someone 1 box or 4. This change would make her a great counter too SWF and make her not have too rely on the basic M1 killer build like she has too now.
Here's the thing. It's not meant to kill people.
It's meant to take survivors off gens, which it already does.
If it killed people consistently, then we'd have a problem. Dying after being downed once because of RNG feels even shittier than a survivor removing their trap on their first try. That'd be ######### game design at its best.
If anything is changed about the RBTs, it should be changing from flat RNG to a scaling chance of removing it per box. But there'd still be people complaining about survivors getting lucky, maybe even more than people complain right now.
I think her traps are just fine. This game is full of RNG already, and there are many many worse instances of RNG than reverse bear traps. Unless the devs do a full 180 on their philosophy when it comes to randomness, their randomness shouldn't be changed. And they shouldn't be changed to kill people more often either.
I don't understand this thread's thought process at all. Her ability has two parts: one that's already doing its job and one that's complete garbage. Why waste time, resources and the killer's power budget changing the former when you can probably make her really good by changing the latter?
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@LordGlint said:
@gantes would allow synergy with perks like Overcharge or Pop goes the weasel.
You want the changes to help at the highest level where gen rush is a problem.
At the highest level, you NEED Ruin, Enduring and Spirit Fury as any M1 killer. BBQ is generally too good to pass up too.
The game needs to change a bit before you even fit Overcharge and Pop on your build.
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@Sentry said:
Please explain how they delay the game because once u reach high ranks teams they just gen rush u. With this change one u could just make it so all inactive don't not have the 5- 10 seconds added on. This would solve the tunneling problem because when Ur in a chase the traps aren't activate therefore deterring people from tunneling. It doesn't deter people from doing gens it deters them from completing them. instead players will start to ninety nine gens leave time for the killer to kick gens.
Wow because going out of your way to kick 99'd gens will REALLY help with the gen rushing
If you guys really want Pig gaining power in all the wrong places and continuing to have a useless stealth aspect of her ability, fine. That's why the devs don't listen to us. You just get hellbent on bad ideas and lash out at anyone who point out how bad they are.
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Guys, I don't think you're considering the implications of these suggestions.
This game has nowhere near as much stuff for survivors to do for that to be good game design.
Cleanse totems? Eventually you run out of totems. Be chased by the killer? They can only chase one person at once.
If anything that just gives the killer more time to tunnel the guy with the RBT. Which is poor game design.
Forcing all survivors out of their main objective when they have nothing else to do is poor game design.
Buff her crouch and ambush attack. Her traps already do their job.
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I mean, the primary objective of any game is having fun.
Obviously no one should get reported or punished for camping or tunneling, but I firmly believe it's the devs job to make game design changes that punish antifun strats as much as possible.
Yes, this also includes making depip squad strats less optimal too because no one likes facing survs that spread out around the map and finish gens before you can do anything.
Punishing that stuff should be a game design thing not a player behavior thing.
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@LordGlint said:
@gantes rbt push the survivors WEARING the traps off gens, but if something like this was also implimented, that survivors teammates might be inclined to hold off popping more gens while someone has a helmet.
I particularly think that wouldn't be a good change when you can actually make the other part of her power meaningful and make her a lot stronger in the process.
She already delays the game.
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I don't think RBTs are the right place to put her power at right now.
They're clearly already the strong part of her ability. They already push survivors away from generators. What should be done is buff her stealth. She needs movespeed addons while crouched, more ways to land sneak attacks and more add-ons directed to that part of her power.
No reason she can't be a good stealth killer. It's half her power.
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They're both low-mid tier, they both have 2 good and 1 garbage perk.
I personally think Pig is more fun and less stressful. That's a personal choice thing tho.
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@milo77727 said:
The only problem I have with the first half (I dont know much about the addons so I skipped that) is that if you change the charge up to catch up to survivors that makes the point of a charge up useless.
Nurse has a charge up for blinks.
Hillbilly has a charge up and is stopped by all objects like a chainsaw realistically would be.
As a survivor main I know that the hardest of those three killers to dodge is LF because you cant just turn and dodge.
The charge up could be shorter but if you do too much it's practically promising an instant down. Make him more powerful but still avoidable.
Currently the more you go up the ranks, the more Billy gets better than Bubba even at a melee range at hitting his instadown.
Bubba's instadown is actually hard to hit survivors that don't mess up currently.
These are the best changes proposed for Bubba I've ever seen. The only problem I have with them is that imo it's impossible to create a viable killer at all levels without some form of map pressure but oh well, what can you do. You can't give all killers map mobility. Systemic game changes need to happen to fix that.
I'd love to play Bubba with a base kit like that, it sounds fun and enough to push him out of meme tier.
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Your anectodal evidence means n o t h i n g
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/552879#Comment_552879
I agree with the Prayer Beads. They need to be looked at or swap places with the Glasses. You will almost certainly safety or de-pip if you play most killers at high ranks, even with pink add ons. But I do agree, every killer should at least be somewhat viable at high ranks.
Thing is, I think very few killers are unviable no matter what add-ons you run.
But most killers are ONLY viable if you use very good add-ons.
BHVR should aim to make better base kits for killers. Add-ons should be for fun/when you want to try a little harder, not a necessity.
Spirit is probably one of the best designed killers in the game because her base kit is very good AND almost all of her add-ons are very good/fun without being broken (except for beads).
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Other than BS windows Bamboozle isn't worth the slot for competent killers.
Every single common tile in the game that spawns with windows can be mindgamed. Jungle gyms, L-wall T-walls, shack, etc. Things that can't be mindgamed are bs main building windows (which are where Bamboozle actually does work) and regular, run-around-the-clutter loops which only have pallets.
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@LordGlint said:
@gantes I feel like getting squashed by an experienced player on their very first game might drive ppl away...
The absence of a ranking system doesn't mean there isn't a decent matchmaking system on the works.
In games like LoL your normal game matchmaking isn't determined by your ranked elo, it's determined by your hidden matchmaking in the normal queue.
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This game shouldn't even have a ranking system.
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Firstly Prayer Beads has no reliable counterplay whatsoever and should be gutted. That shouldn't even be a debate. Even some Spirit mains agree, the reasonable ones at least.
Secondly, arguably every killer CAN perform if you pick the most OP add-ons (except for like Bubba). However, that's not good balance. Base killers should be viable at high ranks, just like survivors don't need items to remain competitive.
That's all.
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What people don't seem to realize is that NOTHING but the very top tiers is 'fine'.
This is not a design problem with Legion, it's a systemic problem with the game.
So stop acting like Legion is worse than the average killer in this game. They're not. The average killer in this game is just bad and that's the problem.