fogdonkey
fogdonkey
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Without hatch there is no point in continuing to play the game in a bad situation. Example: 4 gens remaining and 1 person already sacrificed. What's the point in continuing the game as a survivor? Survivors will all die with a very high probability. Hatch at least gives some hope that maybe one of you can escape.
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
Nothing except make egc camping worse half of the killers have a traversal power so it's not bad
But there are some campers out there (bubba)
Good point maybe this pause mechanic should not work after gens are finished? It could be viewed as some hook EGC.
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@Yippiekiyah said:
Keep the hook timer at 60 secs for first hook but change to 75 secs for death hook. Either that or buff the perk kinship, let survivors get an icon to show that the person on the hook is using the perk, it would help solos a lot.
Here I wanted to discuss only what could be the issues with the "hook timer pause" solution. You didn't really post any issues, just your alternative solution. Thanks, but it is a bit offtopic.
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@The_Krapper said:
Just run kinship 34 seconds is plenty of time for the hook to be paused
Here I wanted to discuss only what could be the issues with the "hook timer pause" solution. You didn't really post any issues, just your alternative solution. Thanks, but it is a bit offtopic.
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@6659Leg said:
I personally suggest a modified monstrous shrine effect of sorts.
Where if the killer leaves after a 24m range mark,the hook progresses faster and causes more urgency. If the killer is within 24m but not in chase,the hook slows down by..maybe 15-20% and survivors do gens faster by 20%.
Although if another survivor is around and running around the hook area (aka,the 24m mark) for a period of time then the hook begins to progress faster.
(Slight hot take: Tunneling and camping are valid strats,just not fun ones lol so killing strats will just make one more favorable than the other,at the end of the day,people are gonna play how they want to.)
Interesting alternative, you should start a separate thread for it. Here I wanted to discuss only what could be the issues with the "hook timer pause" solution. You didn't really post any issues, just your alternative solution. Thanks, but it is a bit offtopic.
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@PapiFelixPSN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104081#Comment_3104081
I understand what you mean. But you're incorrect. Killer games need to have at least one survivor on hook at all times. Even now, that's the only way gen speeds are really manageable. You have to have one on hook, one saving, another in chase, and one on a gen. That's ideal.
If survivors could guarantee unhooks like that, it would turn into one on hook, two surrounding hook, one on gens. Then, you'd leave the hook to chase someone so you don't autolose, and you have THREE on gens and one in chase unless you're playing Nurse or an antiloop killer and down them super quickly. It won't even be possible for other killers to win if good survivors abuse that correctly. There's no counterplay to it, which is already enough to say no to it, but the fact that it's been TRIED before and everyone who played back then knows exactly how that went and says no to it, that says way more. Pausing hook timers isn't the way to go.
My solution to camping is called Uninhibited Repair. Whenever two survivors are on a gen and a survivor is hooked, if the killer is within 20 meters of the hook, gens are repaired 100% faster. If the killer is within 10 meters, 200% faster. If the killer is within 5 meters 300% faster. Chasing or repairing a gen 25 meters away from the hook disabled Uninhibited Repair.
That isn't abusable, as it requires two survivors to be doing gens to work. There's no guaranteed unhook with that, as the mechanic won't activate if survivors tried to abuse it the way they did last time.
Sure let's agree to disagree.
I think you are contradicting a bit yourself. First you say that ideally killer has one on hook, one saving, another in chase, and one on a gen. Then you say that two people can manage to do an unhook and because of that suddenly 3 people are on a gen.
Yeah people are referring to this 5-6 year old experiment why wouldn't it work... It is kind of outdated.
Your solution is interesting. You should start a thread for it. Here I wanted to discuss specifically the "hook timer pause" solution not others.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104014#Comment_3104014
If the survivor can kill themselves then nothing was solved. Killers will still camp hoping the survivor takes themselves out. Which face it, most survivors playing today will.
Other survivors doing gens while the killer camps? What a novel idea that is.
You are twisting my words. I said that they can decide to suicide if they think the game is held hostage (nobody is going for the save, players are not triggering EGC and the killer camps so hook timer is not progressing).
Using your argumentation the game shouldn't work correctly even now, because the players can suicide immediately when they get hooked, they can just not repair gens, they can just not try running from killer, etc.
If the players don't want to play normally, they won't...
With my suggestion they can at least try to punish the killer if they want to...
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3103877#Comment_3103877
You are still part of the game even when hanging on hook. It’s not a reason to give up.
The proposal was pause the hook timer if the killer is within x distance, they tried it and the result was what I described. Which the devs didn’t like so they didn’t implement it.
The solution to camping is for people to stop getting so pissy over it, it’s just part of the game and something to be played around like anything else.
Yeah it is not a reason to give up, but these guys were coming up with weird situations in the comments. Like what if nobody wants to save you, nobody opens the gate and then you are stuck forever on the hook. Well you aren't stuck, you can suicide if such case would occur.
Everyone is telling me that they tried it... Well it was 5-6 years ago... They could try it again, the game changed a lot since then.
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@StarLost said:
Here's another scenario.
Killer hooks you and camps.
Other survivors are either too cautious or want to play hide and seek.
Now you are on the hook literally forever, unless you DC.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3101684#Comment_3101684
Basically, this.
You don't have to DC, you can suicide on hook. So it is not a problem if this weird situation would occur.
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@Mr_K said:
Is it fun for the survivor being camped?
We bring up what did happen when this system was tried but also think about what a killer could do. If a killer traps a survivor in a corner that is holding the game hostage, correct? What is it when a killer camps a hook where the timer never goes down? Would it be fun to just hang in the basement for 10 minutes instead of 2?
The others can finish gens and leave and you die on hook because of that. Or you can suicide on the hook.
These seem to me like some random rare corner cases. No system is going to be perfect.
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@PapiFelixPSN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3103857#Comment_3103857
The problem is that survivors shouldn't be able to abuse a mechanic to get a free unhook. The killer should be able to play the game too you know, not just get swarmed the second they hook someone.
Also, if saves were guaranteed like that, killers would always lose, as killers need to manage their hook states to win.
Look at my first post. I addressed the guaranteed unhook that comes with this idea and fixed that issue in a different change.
How is it a free unhook? The killer injures at least one of them and can immediately chase them. Why would killers lose, you hook a survivor 3 times and they are out of the match.
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@pseudechis said:
Paused hook timers weren’t abusable because you could chase near the hook, rather they removed any incentive to hook save.
So players just left their team mates on hook all game with no incentive to save them.
So sure killers could camp but survivors had no need to intervene, you didn’t even get chase around the hook you just got one person hangs on hook all game. That was all.
Survivors we’re just as happy to leave a player on hook as killers were to camp them. So it wasn’t a great fix.
If the killer camps you, you will not have a good experience even now. This change encourages the killer not to camp.
And if you hate your teammates that much for not trying to save, you can always just suicide on hook.
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@Slingshot47 said:
This would end up with people being held hostage.
How exactly?
Other survivors can just repair gens and leave and at that point you die.
Or... You can always try to unhook yourself or just suicide on hook.
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@PapiFelixPSN said:
I've scrolled through this, and found that a lot of people don't see the issue with this.
All survivors have to do to abuse this is have two stand on either side of the hook, in view of the killer. This guarantees a save if the killer chases one, so it makes the killer have to camp. Chase doesn't start, so the timer stays paused until one survivor solos all of the gens. This doesn't require any communication or coordination, so it's not just a SWF problem either.
And what's the problem with the guaranteed save?
Let's summarize the situation: Only one guy is doing the gen, one guy is on hook, two are next to the hook. The killer can injure at least one of the two survivors (often both) and chase them immediately. What's the problem with it?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3101698#Comment_3101698
I mean, we could have had double CoH, buffed Boil Over or penta Enduring. But people chose to abuse them, so they were removed. Introducing a frozen hook progress would be simply the same thing.
Even with normal progress during a chase, survivors would find a way to loop the killer around the hook, without triggering it. Just watch how survivors can loop a Huntress around a stone, without triggering Bloodlust.
Well I want to understand what are the potential issues and the abuse possibilities. I don't care about other perks, this thread is about the "stop the hook timer" anticamp proposal.
So far I didn't really get any replies that would present some serious issues.
You mention that maybe survivors could delay the chase with slower killers like huntress. Yes it's possible, but is it really a big issue? I am not convinced. Maybe it would be a new "chase delay tech" that sometimes survivors could manage to pull off, but that's it.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3101698#Comment_3101698
Because it would punish players that are using camping in the proper non toxic way like having the hooked survivor in the middle of a 3 Gen area and able to keep a eye on the gens and keep the survivor on hook. I do like your idea of not in chase or if another survivor is within the hook area as well.
We need a way to punish the Toxic campers and not the valid non toxic campers.
Yeah, it would punish a bit the killer in the 3 gen + hook in the middle situation, but in the other hand if there are survivors around I think it would not be difficult to trigger a chase and start the timer ticking. Also the 3gen + hook in the middle is quite a strong position for the killer, so I don't mind if the killer gets punished a bit in that situation. I am saying this as a killer/soloQ player, but I understand that others may have different opinions. I also try to look at the overall situation: this proposal would be an improvement despite having some of these questionable situations.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3101694#Comment_3101694
It doesn't need to be looping, survivors can instigate the same effect without triggering a chase.
Two survivors flank the hook, and the killer can't chase either of them without opening up the hook to the other one.
I replied to your other comment, but I mention it here as well: I think that's not really an abuse or issue. The killer has 3 survivors not on gens with the possibility to injure and immediately chase one of them.
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@Seraphor said:
What's more is camping is a valid tactic, with counters.
Two healthy survivors can guarantee a rescue, and if that's not good enough (Bubba) you can all do gens. That's what the killer is giving up by camping, any and all gen pressure.
So... maybe instead of pausing the hook timer, a camping killer can trigger an increase to repair speeds instead.
This wouldn't be as abusable because in order to capitalise on it, survivors would need to do gens, and any not doing gens are squandering the effect.
Either 5% baseline, or it could be a survivor perk like Kinship and boost gen speeds by 10%.
Interesting suggestion about gen speed increases, could also be a solution, didn't think too much about it.
In this thread however I would like to focus on "pausing hook timer" solution: what are the possible issues and how could it be fixed.
I am not sure about what's the problem with two healthy survivors able to do an unhook. They can do it even now, unless the killer plays the "let's wait until the timer nearly runs out and then do the unhook grab game" tactic. That is not a fun gameplay IMO, I would prefer to have chases instead of some hook grab games.
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@Tsulan said:
The reason why we can´t have nice things is, that people would abuse the ######### out of it.
I want to understand how would they abuse it. So far what I heard is that survivors would deliberately loop around the hook.
I want to know if this is really such a big issue, and if yes, why can't we easily fix it by an additional "killer is not in a chase" condition.
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@Grigerbest said:
No, bad idea. Survivors would just bait the killer by looping him near hook as much as they can.
Better idea tho, is making a hooked timer longer, so survivors would have enough time to pop all 5 gens by that time. Even tho, it's still gonna be unfair to the hooked one, but at least killer will have only 1 kill out of such matches. Maybe killer will stop with such tactic sooner.
You seem to ignore my suggested additional condition: "killer is not in a chase". With that additional condition the abuse you described (looping around the hook) does not work.
Increasing hook timers is maybe a solution. An issue I can see is that survivors would tend to finish gens before going for the unhook, which could increase the genrush.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Easily abuseable, please stop suggesting this dumb idea
Thanks for your constructive feedback, very useful.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
What would happen? Some Killers would not be able to camp, which is good in general. Others would be - Blight, Billy or Nurse as an example would still be able to camp. All strong Killers.
I would say that prolonging the Hook Timer to 90 seconds each stage would be enough to make camping unattractive. And it also does not need any complicated solutions which prevent it from being exploited by Survivors or Killers, other than your idea.
Even the strong killers couldn't facecamp, but yeah, some of them could get back fast to the hook. But I think it is already some improvement.
I guess prolonging the hook timer could work as well. The issue I see there is that survivors would tend to finish the gens before going for the save. That would maybe result in bigger genrush.
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@HugTheHag said:
I mean, it shouldn't be hard to program it so that if there is a survivor in the same perimeter, the timer starts back up. That would solve the issue.
Even though knowing camping killers, they would step one foot out of the radius and still camp.
Would still be a step in the right direction, as some of them would probably not calc it well.
With your suggestion I see this issue: The killer would know that a survivor is approaching the hook by looking at the hook timer. Not sure about the impact of this, maybe it is completely fine. That's why my suggestion was based on chase condition.
Even if they would camp one foot out of the radius it would at least prevent total face camping.
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@Seraphor said:
What would happen is 2 other survivors would bait and loop the killer around the hook, pausing it indefinitely and giving survivor no. 4 all the time they need to crank out the gens.
We know because they tested this on a PTB.
What I don't understand:
- Why can't the killer chase down one of these 2 survivors looping around the hook and basically get at least an exchange?
- Seems like this experiment didn't have the additional "killer not in a chase" condition.
- Only one survivor is doing gens, is it still an issue with increased gen times?
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I am a streamer (without audience) and I play soloQ.
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You should be rather thinking in similar way about your bank account... There the numbers also don't have an upper limit.
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You are thinking too much into this. This is just a game with some lore wrapped around it.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3090124#Comment_3090124
Nobody wants to be forced to chat to strangers, especially if they don't even speak their language. This might be a solution in the US, it's a complete non-solution anywhere else in the world.
Increasing survivors base info is something that would buff solos but not SWF. The info is superfluous to voice chat, so it doesn't provide them with any benefits.
"Every attempt to buff solo queue to SWF information levels has also buffed SWF"? Name one instance. They haven't tried to buff survivor information yet.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3090126#Comment_3090126
No it's not. Every buff to survivor information also closes the gap. Maybe not as significantly as forced voice chat would, but it's a much more realistic and reasonable solution.
They could add a language selector where you could add which languages can you speak. Then the matchmaking would create matches where there is a common language.
Also you don't need to tell poems, just a few phrases is enough: killer is chasing me, gen almost done, going for save... So you don't need to be that good speaker.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3090102#Comment_3090102
Only way to close the gap is ingame voice chat.
That's not necessarily true. Also the gap does not need to be closed completely, the gap just must not be too big.
But anyway, I am not going to further discuss this topic. You have your opinions, I have mine, and none of it matters, because the devs have their own and they will not even see this thread.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3090071#Comment_3090071
Okay, current situation. Survivors get a little icon when they are affected by XXX. Helps the solo but also the SWF, since they can tell their teammates, that XXX is in play, even before the other teammates come into contact with that perk.
So no, it doesn´t provide zero benefit to SWF.
For sure it helps SWF as well, but helps a lot more the solos, so as a result it is reducing the gap between swf and solos.
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Or maybe just this:
@fogdonkey said:
Imagine this or a similarly unfortunate situation: You are a survivor player, 1 person was already sacrificed, others have 1-2 hooks and still 4 gens are remaining.
Why continue playing the match if there is no chance of escape? Basically all your remaining chance is the hatch, but it is not a good solution, because in theory then just all survivors should hide and hope the others get found, which doesn't sound like a fun game.
As a killer player you can get into a similar situation, but you can usually still achieve at least partial success: getting 1-2 sacrifices. Also it can often happen that a survivor makes a stupid mistake which turns the whole match.
What do you think?
My ideas:
- The game should have some mechanics which help the losing side so that they feel like there is still some hope. I am not sure what this should be, could be e.g. increasing gen repair speeds. But this is hard to design and BHVR could never come up with a solution that works.
- Add a resign vote button.
- Come up with some achievable partial goals for survivors which give some feel of accomplishment even if they don't escape.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
Yeah, solo queue sucks. I say this as someone who exclusively plays survivor solo. Literally any buff to killer would hurt solo queue.
There are features coming such as the hud update design specifically to help bridge the gap between solos and SWFs.
But... how did solo queue get noticeably worse? Because DS is nerfed? Not really, since Off the Record does the same thing, can be used twice, last longer, can't be outslugged, etc.
Killers camping and tunneling? I figured that's par for the course. 90 sec gens makes it a little worse, but games don't feel much longer since the pre nerf regression perks were stronger and made games feel about the same.
What kills it for me is that every game, there's a baby that just quits at the slightest inconvenience. I had someone give up against a Myers running no slowdowns. Not camping, tunneling, or even his BS add-ons. Just giving up cuz they went down.
They didn't say anything about the HUD update when they described their plans for the year during the anniversary stream, so I think it is not coming (at least for a year).
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For me, a killer / soloQ player, this update is bad for these reasons:
- The killer queue time has become long instead of instant.
- The solo survivor has become harder in my personal experience.
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My killer experience is worse because of the longer queue, and also my survivor is experience is worse, because the update affected solos the most negatively.
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Lithe, Windows of opportunity
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@UnknownKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3071223#Comment_3071223
Explain it to devs cuz if my ques are instant idk why the boost are for survs instead of killers.
They have confirmed that there is a bug.
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@MissKitty95 said:
is that not the whole point of a incentive ? To get people to play the side that needs more? Ie surviour queues are long…. No 1 is playing surviour so give people extra to play that side
You have it mixed up...
Survivor queue is long, because there are a lot of survivor players in the queue waiting to be able to play, but there are no killers to play against.
Killer queue is short because there are no killer players.
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Yeah, it seems to be bugged. For me it shows also +100% on survivor, but the queue is very long. Killer queue is instant.
Maybe they changed the meaning: don't worry, you wait long, but as a compensation get more bloodpoints :D
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I think it is pretty good. The bloodweb connections have changed and it deletes a lot of nodes, easily over half.
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Finally I can dodge newbie survivors when I play killer?
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3064745#Comment_3064745
Its not a "whataboutism" its a would you press the button scenario
But it is pointless, does not anything to the topic. Start a separate forum thread for your suggestion.
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We are all just people sitting behind a keyboard/controller.
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The question is: do you need to buy monitor, mouse, keyboard, headphones from that money?
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@Icaurs said:
I mean... it was pretty obvious what would happen when introducing the DC penalty. People would just suicide on hook, and this would not solve anything. It causes way more problems then it solves.
People shouldn't be forced to participle in a match that is unfun, when it quite easy to ruin the fun for everyone else. So no, I am glad people can bail on a match if a killer chooses to camp. Or if their teammates aren't doing anything. Or a match becomes apparent that win is not achievable, so you give up and move on to the next one.
They have to participate. They made a contract with the Entity when they hit the Ready button. They have to be ready for everything...
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@Somna said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3059335#Comment_3059335
That's unrealistic. Variables only go so high before it's seriously not worth the effort.
Unsigned int64 max value is 18446744073709551615.
It would take you over 500k years to reach this even if you would get 1 million BPs each second.
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You gradually get shards as you gain devotion. That's the reward.
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@Onyx said:
Literally first two games of the day I get campers. Both times I used party streamers. How is this enjoyable. I would love to know why the devs think this should be a strategy at all? Also I am posting the screenshots to show that you don't need to be a bubba to be able to camp, as showcased in the game with Freddy.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EH63C90OE747/20220713215349-1.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D0TRGOWOHQOP/20220713220436-1.jpg
I still remember that comment where the devs said they don't want tunneling and camping to go because they add to the "fear of the game, because what if this match I get camped" (something along those lines)
That is not something you want people to think when going into a match. You know why? Because it limits on what survivors use. If they go in a match with the mindset of "I might get camped/tunneled" they won't bring offerings at all to not have them be wasted and only bring strong perks that can help in those cases. It's the same with killers going into a match with the mentality of "these survivors are a 4-man SWF that will genrush me", because then they just bring the best perks in the game to deal with that scenario in their head.
So I want the devs, especially Patrick, explain to me as to why do they think this is good game design, literally telling survivors "well, you might just not get to participate in the match at all, die and leave with almost no points to your name". That is terrible to tell your playerbase, imagine if any other multiplayer game went "well at one point you might just not get to experience the game at all", do you really think people would play a game where it's a coin toss if they are allowed to actually play the game or not?
Like, this is the reason right here why I want a mode where it's just against bots. Because I wanna play the game, do challenges, go for achievements, earn BP for progression, but I don't wanna do it against players. I want to go against bots that can be programmed to not camp or tunnel at all, because why would they care if they 4k or not anyway.
Anyway, rant over. Just wanted to showcase how annoying this "strategy" is and how tired I am of people making excuses for it not being solved or somehow justified for it existing. Literally nothing has been tried on live and people go "well, there is nothing that can be done, because survivors can exploit it" as if that is some amazing excuse to keep survivors from enjoying the game.
PS. Those two games were in a row and in the Freddy game that was literally my first hook. I play soloq. I don't want people to "just do gens so you can escape". I want to escape! I want to be saved! I don't want a camping solution that goes "well this makes it easier for the rest to escape", I want one that punishes the killer by having everybody escape if they camp. Or at least compensate me with max BP in every category for being camped. At least with 40k BP I know I am safe to bring BP offerings and not feel like they and my time wasn't a complete waste if I get camped.
Yes: stop playing. If enough people stop, they will do something about it.
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@dugman said:
I recommend Prestiging now to at least level 1 because if you do it before the patch then you’ll be rewarded with two extra Prestige levels automatically (i.e. your Hag will immediately jump from P1 to P3). That’s like getting 100 free bloodwebs on Hag in terms of unlocking her perks on all your other killers!
You will lose your current collection of add-ons and offerings but you’ll get those back pretty quickly as you play her so I think the two Prestige level bump is well worth that trade off.
I also think this is the way to go if you don't have many perks on hag
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@Lycidas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3058946#Comment_3058946
There is nothing unfair about this. People who p3 all perks did it cause they wanted to p3 and have all perks.
BHVR to people who got all perks without prestiging: "Oh don't worry, your efforts are rewarded, we'll count how many perks you got and give you prestige levels according to this"
BHVR to people who P3 just before the update (wasting 4.5 million bloodpoints): "Good boy, here's a cosmetic effect only you can see and you'll most likely disable in the future"
BHVR to people who P3 (wasting 4.5 million bloodpoints) AND got all perks: "What do you want from me? Go play in the dirt"
Nothing wrong with that?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3059054#Comment_3059054
Recognition would be appreciated, especially when they promised such recognition and then massively underdelivered.
And I find highly ironic the fact that the more time you invested in the game, the less it was worth it.
You wasted 4.5 million bloodpoints prestiging? Yeah, here's an effect only you can see and you'll most likely disable
You went the extra mile to collect ALL perks after spending 4.5 million additional bloodpoints? Well BHVR doesn't really care about it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3058966#Comment_3058966
I would be fine with them saying "We appreciate your feedback, we recognize you have valid points, we're listening to our beloved community" Nothing, we get nothing instead. Damage control at most is what we get.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3058913#Comment_3058913
Oh I don't care about bragging either, that's why I'd prefer some ######### bloodpoints or iridescent shards over a different portrait effect or an end game icon, don't get me wrong
And what do you want? Make the game fully playable (with all perks) only for people who spend half of their lives on it?
Btw, why did you prestige before? What was the reason?