esarraf
esarraf
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@TheTom20 said:
Best to go by a hook an say hook me mr killer
Then they just slug you for four minutes to find the other guy.
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@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086256#Comment_4086256
"Tunneling which is already a basekit thing killers can do"
Damn, killers can kill survivors, what a discovery.
Sorry but if you think camping/slugging/tunneling completely removes survivor agency, with plenty things survivors can do to reduce how effective it is, I don't think you can be convinced really
Just using your argument, should survivor be unable to repair gens under certain conditions? I mean, it's same thing really, it's basekit thing they can do
Oh wow, please enlighten the community about all the things survivors can do while hooked and the killers camping. How about against a bubba who tunnels you off hook? Seriously, go on I can't wait to hear your response.
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@Putti said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086097#Comment_4086097
Those are fair concerns, but I think you're assuming the strongest possible version of the support role.
The support role would not necessarily have unlimited tracking, permanent generator monitoring, or constant information. Those would be balance questions that depend entirely on how the role is designed.
My suggestion was more about the concept of a cooperative killer mode where the second player acts as support rather than being a second full killer.
I do agree that more details would be needed before discussing the balance of specific mechanics.You've mentioned in other comments that you want them to be able to injure and down survivors. That's already broken and too strong. Either way, it's a neat idea but you need to cook it a bit more.
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@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086104#Comment_4086104
Of course it's not my only issue with god mode, this was a hypothetical first idea I got after imagining what a change like that would be in an actual game.
My bigger issue with the whole idea of buffing anti tunnel even more, is that it was recently already omega buffed to braindead 15 seconds, if one needs EVEN MORE, that's saying a lot.
And in general, a godmode of any kind is an absolute no go, that's robbing killer of any agency, even if for 15 seconds.
And the examples of Yoshirama, I am sorry, is the action of unhooking supposed to be omega safe for the unhooked? Why should they be so Uber safe by default? That sounds stupid for an assymetrical game
It's not any more brain dead tunneling which is already a basekit thing killers can do. Camping, tunneling, and slugging all remove survivor agency for far longer than 15 seconds and have far less counterplay than count to 15. Do you support removing that as well or is this a my side deserves special favors kinda deal?
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@Artimenius1307 said:
Survivor goes I to basement to unhook -> killer follows cuz why wouldn't they -> downs the unhooker -> unhooked survivor is in god mode but has a flashlight -> killer can't pick up cuz flashlight -> downed survivor picks themselves up with that perk from Michonne and endurance from that Cheryl perk -> guess killer should've played around it
In short, does tunneling need adjustment? Idk, maybe? I would prefer spreading hooks to be beneficial first and then maybe adjust tunneling. Does tunneling need your style of adjustment? Hell no, why would you even think an actual god mode no matter the conditions should be in the game
Okay, easy solution, they can't use items while in this hypothetical mode. Seriously if that's your only reason to be against this idea then problem solved.
@jiogo1 said:
None of the ones you mentioned have the ability to instantly take down with an M1 with anti tunnel feature
Nor can killers like Kaneki, Oni, or Deathslinger ignore the anti-tunnel.
To me, your post is just another survivor whine. Are you expecting Behavior to give weapons to survivors and killers to build generators? Just bring an anti-tunnel build and problem solved...
Lol, bait used to be better.
@Anti051 said:
Wouldn't need any god mode protection if my teammate didn't mindlessly dive my hook when the killer hasn't even walked 20 meters away yet.
Killers can just camp, feel like people forget the fact that the anti-camp doesn't really work.
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TBH gen regression perks are a noob trap. It's much better to run perks that help you snowball rather than perks that help you when you fail. So keep running gen regression as a survivor main, it's a really good idea.
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@Putti said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086013#Comment_4086013
I can understand concerns about balancing it, but why would it need custom maps?
The support player wouldn't be a second full killer. The idea is closer to a player-controlled support role that helps with tracking, distractions, pressure, or utility while the main killer still handles downs and hooks.
That seems like a very different balancing challenge from adding another full killer to the match.There's so much wrong it'd take me like thirty minutes to type it all out and I don't have that kind of time so. First off tracking would be horrible, all that means is that the support role follows the unhooked survivor and there's nothing they can do to hide or get away, second it'd create horrible three gen scenarios after you easily tunnel out a survivor. Hence why you would need bigger maps like in 2v8 to prevent an automatic win. Being able to just have your support stand at two gens and just tell you when someone is working on it would be horrible as you protect the other one.
Distractions are pointless as seen with doctor, so what's the point?
Pressure how? Kicking gens? That sounds incredibly boring for the support player.
Utility how? Giving the killer haste or increased break speed?
This idea is so heavily undercooked, I'm sorry I know you are trying something here but this needs a lot more details because as it sounds it's either incredibly broken, encourages the worst possible gameplay, or is incredibly boring and weak to play. -
@Putti said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085975#Comment_4085975
What part of the design do you think would be the most difficult to implement?
Making it balanced? Sorry but this kind of idea would need custom maps, custom lobby code, and a lot of work for what amounts to a weird 2v8 thing and we all know the devs are just going to make 2v8 permanent eventually. Seriously, this idea while neat has so many issues that it'd be a waste of time.
The reason twins is more or less okay slugging aside is that the killer can only control one at a time. -
@Mooks said:
I haven’t really experienced rubberbanding that often tbh and haven’t heard of others as well..
Are you sure its not on your end?
For context: Where are you located (relative to nearest servers), whats your ping in-game, how are you connected to the internet?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085730#Comment_4085730
THIS is a very real problem. In some cases/specific ‘techs’ it would need clarification and possibly animation fixes if they are meant to be that way i guess
It's not rubber banding, it's that hits are coded to be validated by the killers side. Supposedly if they have over like five hundred or so the server will validate it but it should always be handled by the server.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085733#Comment_4085733
So if Slinger wouldn't become S-tier neither he would rank above most A-tiers what the excuse for keeping him 4.4m/s?
Truthfully he could use some buffs but the main reason he's 4.4 is because any faster and he'd just be able to zone everything more or less and be awful to play against.
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It's already next to impossible not to secure a kill at endgame and you want to make it even easier? Dude if you are this concerned just camp, throw on deadlock and noed. It's two kills minimum with no effort involved.
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@Putti said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085734#Comment_4085734
Even if I accepted everything you just said, it doesn't address my suggestion.
My point is that developers should spend more time playing killer publicly so they can experience the game from that perspective.
Do you disagree with that, or are we arguing about balance instead?I'm not trying to address your suggestion because yeah the devs should play their game publicly, I'm pointing out the very basic fact that the game devs design things to be easy for killers and the idea that the devs only play survivor is ridiculous. If they did then they would have actually balanced the game instead of as shown, rigging it to favor killers.
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@Putti said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085718#Comment_4085718
they are playing survivors and that shows how they balance the game.
Example is that they nerfed insta flashlights as soon the dev played killer on live and got bullied by 4 flashlights that could blind you instantly.
But you dont see them doing that anymore, expecting them to not play killers cause you feel its unbalanced is unbalance itself.
They should play both sides and therefore i suggest they play the
Yeah, you know the devs famously say they want a 60% escape rate, all hits are determined by the survivors ping, they reworked the nurse years ago to make her fair and balanced, and they 100% pushed through the anti-tunnel and anti-slug features they promised for years. They totally have not fundamentally rigged the game to favor and handhold killers.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
Would Slinger being 4.6m/s make him stronger than the current S-Tier or even A-Tier killers? No? Then make him 4.6 m/s.
We shouldn't have any S tier killers or survivor perks for that matter. S tier stuff are things that are horribly broken and should be removed because they are impossible to balance the rest of the game with.
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I just want hits to be validated by the servers. Killers should not be gifted free kills because of their ping.
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They can just add in the mechanics from 2v8 where if one side is beating the other heavily gens slow down or speed up. Would need to add in some anti slug features or something but it'd be really easy if slowing games down is your goal.
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@cogsturning said:
My thoughts are that CCs should be ignored. Deliverance has downsides, like an activation requirement that renders it useless in many matches if you don't get an unhook, or if you're first hook, as well as making you a potential tunnel target. These people won't be happy until every perk is worthless, or everyone plays perkless. Even then, they'll just find something else to make clickbait over.
Hey, give them some credit. They'd probably be fine with treacherous crows and maybe no mither.
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No he's bad. His ability to return to hook instantly even when in the middle of chase halfway across the map is awful, his ability to get free hits and mend people is awful, his ability to ignore massive mistakes and instantly catch back up to survivors is awful, and he sounds annoying. He's a terrible killer and is not fun to go against.
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Gotta be ghoul, it's just so annoying knowing that the devs won't balance him because they want more money and we just gotta deal with a pay to win character for probably a few more years.
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@cogsturning said:
I think the point was kinda lost here. I'd just like people to recognize that the use of certain perks in certain ways can put a killer into a tight spot. I don't ever load in looking to tunnel, but if I have people using SB to try to run me to shack where no gens are being worked on and I have no pressure, I'm going to turn around and go back to the unhook notification I just got because I know there are two people out of position over there. Some perks, even ones that don't seem like they're chase avoidance perks, can be used in a way that's detrimental to your team. And SB is a very free and easy way to frustrate a killer into swerving. I don't think people want to accept that their actions can lead to their teammates getting tunneled.
That's the thing. Killers always tunnel when they are loosing and if you tunnel against people running sprint burst and other very basic perks then your mmr will go up because you aren't skilled enough to win without tunneling and the cycle repeats. It does not matter if you are loading into a game looking to tunnel or not but the simple fact that by heavily inflating your mmr you are guaranteed to go against better opponents than your skill level and then when you are forced to tunnel because of a lack of pressure the cycle repeats.
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Bro, if you are using this thin of an excuse you were going to tunnel anyway.
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I wouldn't, they seem perfectly balanced.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084286#Comment_4084286
The OP Litterally Labeled this thread: "Which balance mechanic would be best for the Nurse" Heavily implying she's unbalanced and in need of "correction".
Oh my boy, but it gets better, he then goes:
"Nurse is, atleast with the last Blight nerf, clearly the strongest killer in the game.
Some other killer have different mechanics to keep their power in check, which of those would be in your opinion work for Nurse without making her awful to play?
- Infect first/triple hit (for example Nemesis, Unknown)
- Limited Power (for example Oni, Myers)
- Items to reduce the power (for example Singularity, Xeno)"
As if the only way they can "correct her" is to apply any of these 3 proven restrictions/NERFS, as done on other killers, to make her BETTER for survivors to go against!
Flipping HELL man, I even submitted my own "Joke" response about basically castrating her by making it so she can't blink to where she can't see, and Escalated upon it when somebody said it was a "good idea" by suggesting they nerf her even further, and only then did the guy, obviously not getting that my initial suggestion was a joke, say:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084292#Comment_4084292
Like, What the hell?!
As suspected You guys really do want her deleted don't you? No amount of nerfs I suggest, no matter how horrible, or how useless they'd make her… not even the OP is arguing against. Sure the OP has since stated that this shouldn't be a "Nerf Nurse" post… but that's literally just him covering his own butt.
@TicTac If you really want this to end, just ask the moderators to close the post, because all you're ever gonna get now, is suggestions on how to nerf her. Attempting to balance her is the LEAST any survivor in this community is interested in. They're just tired of going up against her in the top tier. Even so, if she was nerfed into the ground, they'd just go after Ghoul, Spirit, or Huntress and so on… Just, let her be what she truly is: A challenge, that has a high skill ceiling, and gives equally high rewards for doing so. The survivor community Rarely, if Ever, comes across a "Good Nurse", and when they do, they flip out because she can feel so overpowering, but You literally won't get the same amount of commitment and rarity from any other killer, I promise.
You can't really say that this post wasn't about nerfing her, it's right in your initial Paragraph. Some killer has to be on the top, and there's an old Asian saying: "The nail that sticks up the most, gets the hammer." hence why few, if any, are defending her here… you invited them to come with their hammers raised. If not Nurse, then a different killer will be the next target.
Yeah I do want her deleted in her current form. It's busted and has essentially no counterplay. I'd rather have something horrifically broken be removed and reworked rather than left in the game unless you think the devs should bring back the og brand new part.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083971#Comment_4083971
TBH, I don't think that even changing her like this would ever make the survivors "happy". The only way they'll ever be even close to "happy" with her is if:
- she can only blink on open ground, only 6 meters per token, still 2 tokens
- has a 10-15 second cooldown,
- permanently suffers from the blindness effect so she can never see auras,
- still moves at her 3.86m/s
Added to the aforementioned proposed nerf of "Can't blink to where she has no LoS," then, and ONLY then, would survivors say she's "ok".
These changes would make her completely nugatory to the killer player base, but even with all of these nerfs… I'm sure they'll still complain until she's deleted entirely… Because that just how survivor mains who start threads like this think.
You will never make everyone happy but I think that the los restriction would be a great way to try and balance her, we could see if it works or not and go from there if she's still awful.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084058#Comment_4084058
Now I'm pretty sure you are arguing in bad faith.
I asked you to name something and you can't. I already explained why scream perks won't help and you didn't refute my points.
This tells me you rarely if ever play killer since you don't know what you're talking about. You just think there's some nebulous perk killers have that can deal with Cross-Examination because surely killers have something.
No, they don't, killers have no answer to this perk whatsoever.
And yes, some things are uncounterable. Survivors can't stop most regression perks and killers can't stop Sprint Bursting away from gens. But regression perks are literally required for most of the killer roster to even have a chance against good survivors, and Sprint Burst just gives you a strong opening to a chase and the rest is up to your skill.
Cross-Examination is active literally at all times at any loop higher than a chest high wall, killers can't do anything to prevent it, and it gives survivors an insane edge at any mindgame.
It's so exhausting with this community. The tribalism is insane. I am coming at this as someone who plays both sides. I've seen people defend insanely broken perks in the past like Dead Hard for distance, Boon: Circle of Healing, Made For This… it never ends. Killers do this too but it's so much more common among survivors. And I know why, it's because survivor takes forever to learn compared to the intuitive nature of killer, and it's possible and even common to lose as a survivor in the same match the killer also lost (1k/2k scenarios).
If you don't play killer which I know you don't based on what you're telling me then you just think killers have it easy, but they really do not especially right now.
Scream perks, multiple killer powers like say doctor or legion. I mean I know that some people may say that's unfair to nurse and blight but eh I'm fine with perks that are stronger against S tier killers and make lower tier ones good. You can also try using undetectable since the perk has the requirement of being in the killers terror radius so once again a perk that is weak against killers like ghostface and wraith. Then there's just undetectable perks in general, and since the effect only lasts for a few seconds you can also just use a bunch of aura perks to find the survivor again.
I will say it's extremely rude of you to assume bad faith but I digress. Also, there's always mindbreaker to counter sprint burst from gens and there's the new divine killer perk coming out that halves the effect of any exhaustion perk if I recall correctly.
Anyway killers do have it easy, I mean for goodness sake tell me when there's a thousand+ survivor escape streak and I'll fully agree that survivors have it too easy. Until we get to that point however I'll continue to point out the basic truth that this game is fundamentally designed to be catered to killers. Just look at how the devs tried making hits fair by making them validated by the server and killers complained and instantly got that removed. They have literally come out and said they balance the game around the killers winning 60% of the time, objectively killers have it easy because the developers of the game are balancing it in their favor. -
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083970#Comment_4083970
If you aren't trying to argue in bad faith, I implore you to watch a video discussing this perk and why it's a problem with an open mind to see the problems with it.
But the short version is that it isn't realistically possible to keep eyes on the survivor at all times in a chase, which is the reason why this perk is a problem. There are a lot of loops in the game which block line of sight and force both sides to guess as to the other's location and what they're going to do. Any jungle gym, shack, most main buildings. These are the situations where the perk becomes a problem.
Breathing cannot be used to track in these situations. Being able to track survivors by breath is important for killers who literally cannot see the survivors (Spirit and Dracula), and for everyone else it helps you find survivors who are trying to hide right next to you, but it won't help you at jungle gyms.
Scream perks are all conditional, as in something needs to activate them. Kick a pallet, open a locker, or just wait out a timer and have the survivor look at you, which you have no control over. The only perk which might help is Ultimate Weapon and all it will do is let you know if the survivor left the loop or not.
What perk do you think will help in this situation, exactly? Keep in mind that Elusive hides your aura and scratch marks.
It's not realistic for survivors to have something to counter everything killers can do just like it's unrealistic for killers to have counters to everything survivors can do. All I'm saying is that if any of your complaints are actually right then killers do have things they can use if heaven forbid the meta changes slightly.
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@TWiXT said:
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Survivors just won't be "happy" with the Nurse unless BHVR applies her old Torn Bookmark add-on effect:
"The Nurse is unable to Blink to a Target location she does not have direct line-of-sight to."
As her Base kit.
If she could no longer blink through walls, and only to places she can see, then that stops her from heading survivors off at most high walled loops, and keeps her from blinking between floors of multi level maps. If instead they changed it so that she could only blink through walls and floors/ceilings with an ultra rare add-on, then Survivors would complain less, but still complain despite how MASSIVE of a nerf this would be.
Actually yeah that could work incredibly well, she'd need a few buffs to make sure she does not instantly become f tier but it would make her balanced.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083932#Comment_4083932
OP did a bit of a disservice with this screenshot, because it misses the original context and point the video was trying to make.
BHVR in the past knew that stealth perks which could be used in chase needed to have some kind of activation condition in order for them to be balanced. This does unfortunately mean that the activation condition is too limiting to be usable for most, but the alternative of making one that's too strong is far worse than making just another underpowered perk.
They probably do still know this, they just misfired on Cross Examination, because… well, quite bluntly, I don't think they're good enough at their own game to know how to play tiles well enough to make use of this perk. Most likely when they play survivor, they behave like most bad survivors I run into, aka they do one loop at a tile, either misplay and get hit or drop the pallet, then leave.
I'm actually not trying to be mean with that, unlike a lot of people I don't expect the devs to be masters at this extremely unique game with no transferable skills from any other game. But that's why it's critical we give them feedback when they mess up. Which they did here.
Even more now when their balance cadence has come to a screeching halt and they don't seem willing to make meaningful balance adjustments. If this perk goes live it could make killers insufferable to play for months due to bad survivors not knowing how to use it well and running defense for it (like what's going on in this thread to be blunt). Basically Made For This 2: Electric Boogaloo
Or killers could just adapt and use perks to counter it? Screams, breathing, footsteps, and just not loosing them in the first place would be good.
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@radiantHero23 said:
- Kaneki is awfully loud.
- The first hit is even more free than Legions
- His map mobility has almost no limits resulting in most people tunneling without any punishment or descision making
- His cooldown after using power is too low, often leaving you with literally no counterplay if the map isnt stacked
- Grab attacks sometimes still hit through objects, which adds to the cheap feeling when playing against them.
Just like with Nurse, I dont think this killer can be salvaged. The core design is fundamentally flawed.
TBH I think if they just removed the free injury he'd be fine? Still strong but fairly okay.
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Or… we could just buff the bad perks people don't use. Low profile is bad and needs serious help just like most of the other perks listed.
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You… could just ignore the recently unhooked survivor?
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Balance? If you are looking for some lore reason just say the entity did it.
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TBH the only way they can give killers actually good perks is if they just make it so some perks just straight up don't work on certain killers. Survivors don't have this issue since they are essentially just skins but if you give trapper and skully a good perk that also means nurse and ghoul get it too. Just make it so some perks are unavailable or like give half their value to some killers and they can start going crazy with perk design for killers.
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I mean… maybe if you make it an iri addon that removes her traps entirely I could see this being possibly balanced?
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@QwQw said:
Man, I know it wasn't very well balanced, but I miss old DbD. It felt like it had so much more identity that is just missing now.
Tbh I think it was more balanced at certain points than what we have now.
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I miss old dead by daylight… it was so much fun