cogsturning
cogsturning
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I used to not have a ton of hard tunneling in my matches. There's been an uptick recently, but I also feel like it's been steadily getting worse for some months now.
My killer matches are also bad with BMing but the survivor ones have been exceptionally bad. I have no idea if the fate of the patch has anything to do with it, but don't think I've ever been humped or hit on hook so much before.
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I think both the sweats and the chills can agree on this one.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999693#Comment_3999693
it seems like it highlights the core issue, when killers dont use these dirty tactics they often lose which is why killers use them. to stand a chance at winning. tunneling near the end is too late. survivor escape rate is supposed to be 40% but just out of 10 matches your escape rate is 90% with 10% losing due to dirty tactics. had they not used those tactics you would have 10/10 escapes. hardly any wonder the changes in the update got delayed.
Or maybe it's—and I quote—a skill issue. Because if you rely solely on cheese tactics you aren't getting any better at the real strategies. What skill was expressed in slugging everyone two minutes into the match? And what's the point of such a hollow victory? If you can't win any other way, then improve.
But I don't think my very average overall ER of 40% is going to help your argument. The players with 80%+ KRs from tunneling and slugging might help mine though.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999581#Comment_3999581
im curious, in the matches shown, your saying the 1 match you lost was the 1 match the killer used this tactic?
I don't recall the details of all these matches. I remember that one because it was exceptionally unpleasant, and egerious use of dirty tactics.
I'm sure there was some tunneling, camping, and slugging in the others because it's been once every several games for me lately, we just didn't all die from it. The last match in that batch I was tunneled, but it was end game and he was desperate. He couldn't catch me though, and he DCed right before I got to the open gate.
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This is the sort of well-articulated take we need.
I agree. Tunneling doesn't generate tension for me. If I'm the one being tunneled, I'm just annoyed and frustrated. If I see it happening to someone else with 5 gens up then I just sigh and go "here we go" while feeling defeated. It's actually more monotonous than regular gameplay. What's tense is being on a gen and hearing the terror radius growing and deciding if I'm going to try to crank it or run. Cleansing a hex totem and hoping the killer doesn't come check on it is tense. Tension in horror comes from the suspense of not knowing what's coming. Knowing exactly what's coming is the opposite of tension.
As killer, I try to keep everyone alive as long as possible with spreading hooks. My goal is to hook everyone once first then go from there. I like tight, even matches. Ideally, everyone dies in fairly quick succession once we're down to one or two gens. That's tension. Will I get rid of them fast enough or will they get the last gen done? Will they get to the exit gates before I can? I don't slug for hatch. That's also tension, seeing who will find it first.
I don't think the tension necessarily weakens when you get more experienced. I think the fear does. I started survivor fearful and now I'm not, but I still feel tense when the last few seconds of a gen are left and the terror radius is blaring.
The only time I've ever gotten any thrill from tunneling as a survivor was at end game. For example, I had a match last night against a Micheal with permanent tier 3. Had almost no hooks at end game. Committed to tunneling me right off hook because he needed to try for a single target to get 1k. Dodging him with vaults and hitting him with pallets because he was desperate and sloppy was exciting. But that's end game. That's when stakes are totally different and you have will-you-live-will-you-die moments of truth.
I also agree tunneling removes depth, as it's repetitive and generic and allows for little to no skill expression from killers. It's also masking problems with certain killers. Everyone's argument has been "how will low-mobility killers win now?" If that's truly an issue, then let's uncover it in the numbers. If those killers suddenly plummet, then they could be on the table for reworks.
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Try to figure out what perks the killer is running early on and counter them at the right times. I either go in lockers or crouch behind gens when someone is about to get hooked because BBQ is so common. Nowhere to Hide makes itself apparent pretty fast when the killer immediately hits a hidden person after kicking a gen. Friends til the End is also easy to spot, as the obsession changes on the HUD and the person screams.
Add-on based aura reads are harder to judge. You have to understand those killers add-ons and the prerequisites for the read.
Having a read on the killer is paramount. I always run Empathy. I see someone get injured and I know exactly where the killer is. Same every time an injured person is in chase. This is particularly helpful with killers like Legion or Plague, where everyone is likely to be injured all match. Gives me near flawless awareness. Also helps me know what gens are being worked on, what gates are being opened, and who's ratting in the basement.
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Ideally, certain killers just need reworks to catch them up and level the field. But the blanket changes were clearly the easier option.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999362#Comment_3999362
thats your mistake right there…downed you early. thats skill issue. i mean the killer needs to win a chase 8 times for that to happen (twice per survivor to down them) if the killer hooked you all instead of slugging then the killer won. same applies to being slugged. you wouldnt expect a potential comeback if all are hooked, maybe you would expect that? the abandon option is there because its unanimous the killer won so you can get to the next match instead of remaining slugged.
its interesting that i knew this would happen. survivors complained about being slugged for 4 min so bhvr gave them what they wanted, a way out. now thats not good enough, they dont want a way out they want another second chance.
So survivors have to have skill and strategy, but killers can just camp a hook and slug anyone who comes for a reacue?
If you're cool with dirty tactics with zero chance of comeback, then fine, but they should go both ways. So tell me what tools survivors have to incapacitate the killer and guarantee a win with no chance of comeback, two minutes into the game.
And for context, here are the other matches I played yesterday.
One of these matches is not like the others. So is it a skill issue? Or do some killers just not want to play a proper match and instead abuse mechanics for cheap wins?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999132#Comment_3999132
I thought the same thing as soon as I saw it. I remember a night where I was on a team who decided to just meme all night with Bardic. Funny enough, our survival rate was through the roof that night. We kept putting on shows for the killer, and most of em would walk us to the exitgates.
Magnificent. I would have let you go too. If survivors are funny or charming, that's an automatic out. I don't know how anyone can resist it.
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Another fun one from today. This killer downed me early and camped until I went second stage, then slugged everyone. Went AFK and left us all to bleed out for the whole timer. I got 5k BP for this match. The abandon feature is bs. You should be able to have some potential comeback from this behavior, especially with a flat-out refusal to hook.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999238#Comment_3999238
Not that im 100% agreeing with him, I find the "I haven't heard much about x" type of comments arent good? Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it isn't happening..
Also the main reason I think they said those changes should go through is Incentives is better then punishment. If you make playing fair be more viable then tunneling, without getting tunneling tunneling will naturally stop, which is true. But if you make playing fair to viable and Too strong, it would be oppressive on ether side.
I didn't say I haven't heard it. I've seen people in the forum alone with stats under 60%. I'm asking if that's the case with these friends. But the devs know just how sharp the slopes on the bell curve are.
I don't agree that it will stop because there's some basekit buffs and nothing to dissuade. People that don't do it will keep not doing it and benefit. If there are no discouragements why would you stop if its already working for you?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999198#Comment_3999198
Have people really avoided Twitch/Reddit/YouTube/these very forums during the PTB?
If they're all of equal quality, you've got jack. The forums mostly consisted of stuff like
'Survivors can just hard throw the match for a speed boost!'
'Why don't killers get [thing]? They do? Well in that case, it's useless!'
and
'If I do everything wrong, am I supposed to just lose?'
From what I saw peeking in at Reddit, the caliber of discussion points was about equal to these, yeah.
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@TheBubbaMain2003 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998817#Comment_3998817
I'm only one player from milions of them. I do have a lot of hours in this game and it should be normal that I will get better results than other less experienced players.
Also I do not think only about myself. I have a lot of friends playing Dead By Daylight that struggle while playing Killer and many Killer Players just can not keep up very often. Who cares about me having 90% Kill Rate. I just said previously that I won't have problems in matches if these changes come to LIVE and that's all.
But still I think those changes should come to LIVE even if Killers will suffer for month.You also said they should go through even if the survivor changes don't. I don't want one without the other.
And do these struggling players have numbers way below the 60% despite regular playing and practice? I haven't heard too much in that regard.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999166#Comment_3999166
People might lie about it because they hate the Go Next system, and want it removed. There absolutely is a motivation for lying.
The fact that we don’t have a lot of proof of it happening, is proof that it’s not happening enough to be a problem. Something that only happens like 1 in 1,000,000 games, is not a problem.
Remember that we had A LOT of videos from people claiming the AFK crows were unfairly punishing them. Because it’s 2025, and there are a lot of survivors that can figure out how to record their matches. Why is it that we had so many videos of AFK crows, but pretty much zero videos of Go Next?
AFK crows aren't that close of a comparison. Penalities from being tunneled are, at least, uncommon, yes, but crows were very, very common. I got them mutiple times and saw multiple people get them, while playing both killer and survivor, for reasons they didn't deserve. That was a big issue. The DC penalty is a smaller one but more punishing, since it affects your ability to even get into a game.
But if you're that skeptical, then make a post requesting evidence.
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Both egerious slugging/tunneling and bad teammates can occur, often both at the same time. Everyone wants a better tutorial but what do you tell people exactly. How to take aggro? Do safe unhooks? Trade? Best perk builds? Looping strategies? Not to be a cowardly rat?
Dbd's nature isn't black and white. A lot of things are more about figuring them out and finding your own methods. The basics of the game are easy to explain. The intricacies are not.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999162#Comment_3999162
Scott Jund already proved before its not common at all. Something like 2/50 games involved actual tunnelling, iirc, and thats at his high MMR where its far more likely to be needed in the first place. Anyone claiming they are consistently getting tunneled and slugged excessively has massive negativity bias, or is trying to forge a narrative.
We all know survivor constantly claim "tunneling" for every single thing under the sun.
I dont even remember the last time i saw any unjustified of either in my games.
A content creator has spoken. The problem was not real. We can all go home now, folks.
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@BoopsPlease said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999165#Comment_3999165
I've played Overwatch for 9 years now (started during the beta), and even during the HEIGHT of the most toxic formats I have never seen the community band together to play whats "meta" collectively, posts from the time even show it with GOATS, casual players played what they loved. This changed during 2019-2020 or so, everyone being forced on the internet for so long forced people into bubbles of watching youtube videos (mainly by high ELO players) and started enforcing stricter and stricter Metas.
I wasn't around in 2020, so I don't know if that's when the swap happened as well for DBD, but I saw it in multiple games I played, every single pvp-adjacent game had stricter and stricter metas, and more and more toxic players if you didn't adhere to them. Hell we see it currently, hundreds of comments on the forums of "you suck just git gud", I find no enjoyment in "getting good" at DBD, why would I force myself to get better when I know it would make me enjoy the game less (which is the obvious fact that most people who do tryhard do not enjoy the game unless they win), I could theoretically put in many more hours than the average person (disabled so I don't work outside of housework), but then I would be treating the game like a job, also, not enjoyable.
A lot of the people the comments come from about how competitive games need to be if they are pvp are younger, and I know i personally was a more competitive person when I was younger. But in reality they need to grow up and see video games as what they really are, escapes from the outside world, and enjoyment, its a form of media that you are meant to spend time enjoying, not putting all your effort into. So no, the 3k subs you got on youtube for reaching a 1k blight winstreak isn't "kickstarting" your career, its removing your enjoyment from what is suppose to be a hobby, and not a job.I agree with all of this too. I think social media and content creators fuel a lot of the negative shifts in gaming. I'm not young and I always remind myself that many of these people are half my age. Youtube existed but wasn't at this scale when I first started online PvP gaming, about 15 or more so years ago. There wasn't even crossplay when online gaming became big. It was a much more personal and isolated endeavor.
I've had quite a few people tell me what perks I should be bringing to avoid problematic tactics and I think that's garbage. I recently switched out my Scene Partner/Plot Twist and Built to Last for Finesse and Lithe and I'm unhappy about it. It's more advantageous, sure, but it's not as fun or satisfying. Now I'm looking at Made for This, Conviction, and Soul Guard but this just isn't what I want. It's not the fun escape I want it to be if I have to play like this.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999125#Comment_3999125
”As far as you know”? So it’s not happening to you personally, even though you deal with lots of tunneling?
Doesn’t anyone think it’s weird that we don’t have a lot of video proof of this happening? Because if it’s happening enough to be a problem, there should be a lot of video proof, right?
Or it is possible it might be doing this only 1 in 1,000,000 games, and people are trying to massively over exaggerate the problem?
People in the forum have said it's happened to them. I haven't investigated. I also don't know why they'd lie about a mechanic issue.
Just because there's tunneling in my matches doesn't mean I'm the one getting tunneled. And when it is me, I'm just surviving long enough to not get the penalty. Not everyone will.
And rare or not, it shouldn't be happening at all.
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@BoopsPlease said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998718#Comment_3998718
It's because very obviously, survivor players are collectively more casual, and will never interact with the outside community outside of playing the game. Survivor players HAVE to be at a higher number than killer players to keep matches flowing (which hasn't been the case for quite a while), frankly they just don't care anymore. It's been multiple years of "can't wait to play DBD!" 'queues into a 3k hour blight main slugging and tunneling gets off the game for a week hoping it'll get better'. They're fatigued like crazy. You quite literally can go play any other game on the market and feel like your time isn't being utterly wasted because you actually have a 50% chance to win, and even if you don't win in the vast majority of scenarios you will be able to find enjoyment in that game. No one finds enjoyment sitting on the ground for 4 minutes staring at their phone, no one finds enjoyment sitting in lobby for 2/5ths of their in match time because they got tunneled for just trying to have fun.
Someone said it a few days ago, the hyper competitive people who play this game are killing it, rapidly. They are the ones outcrying on the forums constantly because they need to win, even if they don't want to put the effort into getting better to. DBD is inherently a party game, it always has been, sadly this hyper-competitiveness isn't a DBD exclusive thing, BHVR has just done absolutely nothing to stop it from destroying the casual playerbase too.Yeah, I agree. I just recently said I think the forum is a particularly bad example of the majority player. I see a whole bunch of people with KRs and ERs well over the goal number, some KRs outrageously so. I don't think these people can objectively view the game anymore, even if they play both roles.
I play a lot, but I'd be considered casual in my approach. I have a 60% KR and a 40% ER. Literally The Average Player at likely mid MMR. The views I see don't feel like they reflect that experience at all. It's like they're playing a different game than I am.
What you say about other games has been on my mind for awhile. Aside from the 40% majority loss goal for survivors, there's also the fact that if you die, you're out. If I log on to a CoD game for the first time, I'll be terrible, but I'll get to be around for the whole match, and no one can really incapacitate me. It's that feeling that you didn't even get to play at all that kills the survivor role. When I play killer, I intentionally spread hooks and try to keep everyone around for awhile. I want the match to feel full and even. But consideration and empathy are for the "casual" mindset, I guess.
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I'm excited for another meme perk, useful or not. I want to get four people to run it or Bardic with intermittent screams from Scene Partner serving as vocals. If I can't start a band I don't wanna play 😤
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999103#Comment_3999103
People don't want to tweak the numbers they don't want the system that will take anything away. Ironically I saw a few joke comments that this whole PTB would end with none of the changes going through except all the basekit killer buffs. And not even 24 hours after the announcement of it getting axed threads were up asking for the basekit buffs to stay to help killers.
From people with very high KRs, no less.
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The system is going to be tweaked and brought back in a better form
Because there's little precedence for this level of optimism. People are feeling defeated. Fog vials were obliterated in a week. As far as i know, DC penalties for getting tunnelled fast are still a thing. There was finally the idea that something big would happen and it's hard not to feel as though it's being added to the backlog trash heap of unfinished ideas and broken promises.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999067#Comment_3999067
You can’t balance a game so every new player stays. Some don’t want to learn—fair. A years-old PvP title will have a steep learning curve: others know maps, movement, macro. You can still have fun while losing if you like the core loop and stick with it.
Personal example: Hunt: Showdown—pushed into 5–6-star lobbies because of my friend, died for 200–300 hours, constant “where did that shot come from?” moments. That’s how you learn.
And DBD already has plenty of safety nets. The “you can’t even play” line doesn’t match what I see— and even when newbies hit strong Blight mains via SWF mmr boost. If you want to learn, you can.You can’t keep everyone.
the players who want to learn will stay.
I agree on matchmaking—I’d love a working ranked mode. Even with good MM, early on the killer role has the objective edge and survivors have way more to learn—that’s just how asym games work.
Survivors have to learn maps, tiles, resources, rotations, saves, trades; a new killer vs newbies can often just run them down, press M1, and build hook pressure. Until the team understands and uses map & resources, it’s a walk in the park for new killers.The killer role is an absolute powerhouse at the start—because survivors carry the learning load,but once survivors get macro & pathing, the maps and how to use it.. it flips.
I get it:
and as is said:
The killer role is an absolute powerhouse at the start—because survivors carry the learning load.
But once survivors learn basic macro & pathing and how to use the map, it flips. And we’re talking fundamentals, not perfection.
BUT: The “I spent the whole match on the ground / I couldn’t even play” feeling is very counterable even in super casual lobbies.
There are so many stuff .. Simple lines that already fix most of it… .and there is no sweat squad required
If you want a non-sweaty fix to most “I can’t even play” moments, start with safe unhooks: set up two people, one takes aggro and the other escorts, then get distance and reset instead of YOLO-unhooking in the killer’s face.
After the unhook, don’t run back through burned tiles—break line of sight, rotate to a fresh tile, and either pre-heal or buy distance before you even think about touching a gen. Spread your gens early so you don’t gift a 3-gen; keep multiple gens tapped so a single kick doesn’t wipe all your progress. Take good trades near safety instead of panic hits in dead zones, be ready to cover ur team, and if the save was scuffed, don’t re-engage—reset and try again properly.Bodyblocks should be late and near safety; if the unhooked has no resources, escort them, don’t farm them.
For anti-slug, call one person to pick up while the others keep pressure; if you’re downed, crawl toward pallets, teammates, or safer ground instead of deeper into dead space. Keep track of which pallets and windows are gone and route the team away from low-value zones so you’re not donating resources for free. If the killer commits to the unhooked, keep two on gens and one on screen, then swap—those reset cycles win you time. And if you want a bit of insurance, bring endurance/anti-tunnel, info, or quick heals—but use them to buy distance, not to ego-re-engage. (a lot of people die here, too bcause of this)
.. i mean.. safe unhooks, gen spread, smart resets, and purposeful trades remove most of that “helpless” feeling, even in casual lobbies.
From a long-time player POV: the more safety nets you add, the less people learn—they get stuck in that unwilling playstyle. If someone won’t pick up the basics (not mastery, just fundamentals), no amount of padding will keep them. You can’t retain everyone with bubble wrap.
I spread my gens. I understand when to unhook safely and when I'm forced to trade. I understand going to pallets when slugged. But I don't think you, in upper MMR, playing against teams, understand what the daily grind is like for mid-MMR soloq. No one is likely to pallet save you. They'll unhook you in the killer's face. They will burn through pallets and you won't know until you're on the run and find nothing but smashed bits. You're talking like everyone is organized and strategic and that is not the case for soloq at all. It's not the case for a lot of parties either. Soloqers are often (stupidly) selfish. I've had people intentionally bring the killer to me and use me as a shield numerous times. I've had them run out the door while I was on hook and was an easy save. There isn't just a lack of coordination, there's a lack of even understanding that coordination is necessary. And again, if that's the majority experience, it might need some tweaking.
I had a recent killer match that was clearly soloq. Thre were three peopel left. I hooked an Adam for a second time. I went after a Steve. Ended up hooking him on the other end of the map. The Adam died on hook for no good reason. The third teammate was a rat. I stood by the Steve until he could unhook then I went rat hunting. That's what soloqers are dealing with. Partially, the porposed changes are about killers' behaviors. But they're about fellow teammates behaviors.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999024#Comment_3999024
I’m one of those hardcore players. But I’ve also brought a lot of new players into DBD from other games I play. And it doesn’t take thousands of hours to understand certain things—as soon as you actually want to learn. The Dredge example from Firellius above: that would have happened to my friends once, maybe twice. Then they’d understand the killer’s power, grasp the mechanic behind it, and they wouldn’t hand the killer that value at the start of the match anymore. You don’t need “thousands of hours” for that—just the willingness to learn and some basic game sense. That’s independent of perks.
The big problem I see is this: many players only look at the situation, their own perspective, and the feeling that it was “unfair.” They don’t look at their own mistakes and refuse to reflect on and improve their gameplay. They end up stacking thousands of hours, stay stuck in the “that’s unfair” mindset, and blame the other side, which is simply capitalizing on their errors.
And yes, playing super casual is totally legitimate—I’ll give you that. People pay money for the game; they should play however they want. But if you don’t want to learn or improve, and you just want to hop in casually, where does the expectation come from that you “deserve” a win against someone who invests more time in improvement, keeps trying to perfect their game, always looks for counterplay, and learns from every situation? That’s the nature of PvP. If you just hop in casually and don’t want to get better, and you run into someone with more hours who practices and analyzes more than you do… then part of it is accepting that you lose that match.
Why would those new and casual people stay then, if they lose every match? Again, the game can't survive on tryhards alone.
Funny enough, I see the entitlement to winning way more from the killer side than the survivor side in this forum. I've regularly seen people ask how they're supposed to secure a win if gens are almost done and they have little to no hooks. The answer should be "you're not" but God forbid. What I've seen form survivors is mostly just a desire to play. I don't mind losing if I thought my opponent was better than me and it felt like a real match. What I mind is getting shoved out of the match immediately, or someone else getting shoved out and now the match feels hopeless. Or spending the match lying on the ground. The issue isn't not winning, it's feeling like you can't even attempt.
Those people with massive hours and high MMR shouldn't be matched with mids and lows in the first place, which seems to be the core problem every discussion circles back to--matchmaking.
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@bleep275 said:
"feels too punishing for killer". Yall ever log into a match as survivor just to get tunneled out at 5 gens as punishment for playing survivor so you cant actually play the game?
Hey, that's actually why I log in. I'm just a masochist trying to enjoy my death wish murder victim fantasy simulator.
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@n2njauwu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998718#Comment_3998718
come on, both sides are just as much obnoxious, dont throw it to just killers,
It's not just killers, I just see more killers attached to their roles and expressing more entitlement to win, even when many already have 70%+ KRs. Again, mostly what I see from survivors is a kind of pre-programmed acceptance of defeat that displays itself as frustration.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998893#Comment_3998893
You and at least 7 other people are missing the point.
The perks are there to help beginners and bad players. Watch experienced players you'll see they barely use these perks. (Cope and Mr Tatorhead are my favorites)
So use the perks you want but don't complain being tunnelled if you don't and can't handle a chase.
Personally I don't use any of these (I've used OTR for a while) and I have no problem with tunneling. And I consider myself an average survivor at best (with almost 4000 hours but still).
I only skimmed this video and that's more than most are going to do. I, too, don't want to watch some content creator blather on for an hour. But thinking people need to follow and watch all these streamers is part of the problem. A game should be playable at the lower ranks for people who don't want to get a doctorate in it or put in thousands of hours.
You're kind of proving a point I keep making. There are people in here with 90% KRs. This forum is full of devoted players who don't represent the majority of new and casual players, and those are the ones who need the most help. They're also the ones who keep the game fresh and alive. You saying you have 4k hours and you're still average doesn't seem a little crazy to you?
I see average and bad players running exhaustion perks. I don't see bad or average players running Conviction, Soul Guard, Made for This, Babysitter, or Background Player. I also don't see solo players running those much, because they're better on teams. The idea seems to be that survivor is strong IF you learn the right perks and play with other great people. Meanwhile, I don't feel like I have to lean that hard on perks as killer, or have outside factors, like potato teammates. If there was a perk-free mode, how do you think that would go? Probably 80% KRs for killers.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998852#Comment_3998852
So the other dude needs to improve at looping and use the appropriate perks (and there are so many).
How is it that an average player like me has no issue with this? (Both with the tactic, the low occurrence of the tactic and the "anger" management?)
How is it that when I watch good players they get no problem with it either? (And they get tunnelled: Cope just dropped another video.)
How is it that so many players play so aggressively against the killer, body block out of the hook, only to complain about being tunnelled?
How is it every single (complaining) surviror isn't running DS, OTR, … ?
"Mass hate and anger"? in this echo chamber maybe.
It's a game about chasing and hiding, being in chases is the fun part of the game, not sitting on the gens. I wouldn't mind something to help against directly attacking someone out of the hook so there is more chance to have two health state before being downed again. But in essence, there are already several built-in mechanics and perks to do it. I wouldn't mind a huge incentive for the killer not to do it (an actual incentive).
The video I've posted earlier has very interesting points about all this.
There are 160 perks. You shouldn't be forced to devote your slots to a handful of perks to combat how a portion of overly competitive people decide to play. I don't design my killer loadout around the possibility of bully squads. Why should I be forced to to do so as survivor? And the sort of builds discussed in that video are best for skilled players and coordinated teams, which is always the problem that this circles back too. People talk as though casual and average-skill players in soloq don't exist while they're probably the majority.
Who is complaining about tunnelling after a body block? If I body block, I full expect to be targeted. Just like if I'm killer, I will down someone again who does it. A survivor choosing to engage is not the problem that people want resolved. It's survivors being targeted right off hook while just trying to get away.
I like doing the objectives. I enjoy the tension of the mundane task while I've also got my head on a swivel and am trying to monitor what's happening around me. I like to crank a gen with a chase happening right next to me. I like cleansing hex totems or opening a gate while hearing the killers terror radius intensify. Running in circles isn't everyone's favorite part.
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@ChucksterMainin said:
almost sad looking a some of ya'll kill rates, like maybe we just do need a better MMR, maybe some of ya'll are misplaced in MMR.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EICUYCBRQ1RO/image.png
and with no slow downs that i have been using for a while too
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7GVVA519GT7R/image.png
survivor escape rate is actually higher than i though and im 85% solo too
What's the reason for the disproportionate KRs between your perks and your characters? There a like a good 20% difference there.
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@TheBubbaMain2003 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998256#Comment_3998256
In my opinion all Killers except S Tiers & high A Tiers should receive massive buffs similar to buffs from PTB. If you do not agree with that I will be surprised.
You have a 90% KR and you want buffs.
I have a 60% KR and I'm indifferent.
Something is wrong here.
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The end game collapse already exists to wrap things up.
Even taunting itself is sometimes a tactic. I've had matches where survivors keep the killer busy with faux toxicity at one gate in order to buy time for an injured teammate trying to open the other door. How would the game identify bad behavior vs helping/waiting for teammates?
I get you don't like it. I don't either. But killers can also hit on hook and hump. It just is what it is.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998765#Comment_3998765
Maybe BHVR wouldn’t take people’s opinions more serious if they didn’t use the words “killer main” in a derogatory way in literally every single comment. I’m glad they are tuning out the toxic “us vs them” garbage.
The exact same language was used when the ptb was first announced, just directed towards survivor-players instead. All that's happend is an equal flip of pettiness.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998292#Comment_3998292
What exactly is it you want for killers? The rewards for not tunneling are fairly significant, so what more could be done? The only thing I can think of is 25% repair penalty on survivors as extra incentive for not tunneling, but then perks would have to be adjusted to compensate for this and avoid the problem of survivors just giving up because doing a gen becomes impossible beyond a certain percentage.
A lot of people already find gens boring. A penalty like that might be too hard to trudge through, especially with additional regression perks.
Also, rewarding killers for their actions sounds a lot better than penalizing survivors for killers' actions. I don't mind bonuses for playing the way I always play anyway, but I don't want penalties for my opponents for my actions (or non-actions).
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I'm fine with the hook number being lowered. I think most people are.
I'm kinda more interested in the anti-slug than the anti-tunnel. Tunneling you can at least move and try to combat it. Slugging you're just screwed.
If you can't crawl and recover at the same time, then the anti-slug is pretty much useless. Staying in the same spot for 90s makes you too easy to relocate. A killer can slug everyone and hook them all in that amount of time. And that's the sort of behavior it's supposed to combat. At least if they can spread out while recovering, one or two might be able to get up. If you cant move and recover, it should be 60s.
An anti-slug bar isn't a bad idea but it needs to be better than the anti-camp bar, which is crap. Recently, camping people into second stage has happened to me just about every day I've played a batch of survivor matches. It just happened to me personally two days ago. It's range is not effective. And how near is near for the nearby survivor? If you have something like Lithe, Sprint Burst, or Background Player you can cover some good distance quickly.
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God please give me old Streetwise back
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@bleep275 said:
Every match in 1v4 ive had this past week with the exception of a few have been hard tunneling. At this point i feel like theyre doing it to be petty about the almost update. Even in 2v8 im seeing more tunneling than usual. so shoutout to the devs for pulling out a carpet pull and showing the toxic parts of the community that they can continue to make us all miserable.
A few people have said this. I've noticed an uptick too. The irony is, in making random people miserable in your form of "protest," you're going to 1) inflate your stats artificially 2) increase discontent and discourse amongst survivor players and 3) generate more numbers showing the excessive prevalence of these tactics.
Kinda shooting themselves in the foot there.
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@foxofthestars said:
I think survivors need to ######### and complain like the killers did. Maybe then they'll bring the changes back. Honestly IMO I can't believe that they're not moving forward with it. They didn't even wait to let console players have a chance at trying out the new changes.
There was an entire player base out there who's opinions got left out. 😐
Just a little FYI before anyone comes at me saying survivor main console player i play 50/50 and play on PC.
Survivor mains just don't seem to be as loud. There are a few here, but I see many more that are more attached to the killer role, even though there must be more people playing survivor for the numbers to work.
Maybe that's because a 40% goal bakes-in the expectation or failure for survivor. Most of the time I just feel beaten down as survivor and it's kind of exhausting. As killer, not so much. I feel like I've always got a good chance. I've lost 10 survivor matches in a row more than once and that feels depressing but not abnormal. I've never lost ten killer matches in a row.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998685#Comment_3998685
It was extreme. Over the course of two downs you can easily waste 90 seconds sitting under a pallet while a teammate threatens a save. 90 seconds of two other survivors sitting on gens. It was abused in the PTB and would have been abused in live.
So what do you do in this situation normally? Leave them on the ground until they bleedout? The pick up is just as tricky without the basekit UB. You can also just hit them again. The recovery doesn't include Endurance.
The problem with slugging isn't just the act, it's that there's no hope. The chance of recovery negates the hopelessness. That's why a measure is needed. I don't know how much weaker it can really get while maintaining any usefulness because 90s is a lot.
There was also zero time to adjust to these ideas. New ways of playing would have to be considered as things changed. We probably would have seen quite a few perks being reworked and nerfed to make up for the changes over time.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997757#Comment_3997757
The ptb changes were in no way fair. . I had 2 matches against bully squads and it felt like 2017 again
Two matches against organized, skilled players isn't exactly a good reflection of things overall. I lose against bully squads outside the ptb too.
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@Brimp said:
Because rightfully the changes were not made in the best way. It actively punished ALL forms of survivors just being downed and hooked. Which the only fix should have been extreme scenarios and not giving the survivor basekit unbreakable because they went down under a pallet twice with a teammate that has Background Player. Also the incentives they tried to give simply were not good enough for lower tiered killers.
And it quite literally has been shown that BHVR caters more to the casual and new players rather than people who actually get decent at the game so I guess screw them right? Why make it more fair at all levels when you can just give new players a experience by dictating how a killer can play. Which is crazy to think since DBD is a non-party PVP game.The sluging part of the patch wasn't extreme. If you can't pick somone up in 90 seconds then they should be able to get up, especially in solooq, where you can't depend on anyone and your teammates actions aren't always in your best interest. I've had many matches where randos have flashlight-saved me or done sabos and that's gotten me slugged or targeted despite having no say. Take it out on the person doing the saves, not the person being saved. I've also had my fair share of killers who've just left me slugged for fun.
As killer, I've had times when I went after a nearby second person after a down and have completely lost track of the previous down. I had one recently that went through the whole timer, despite me looking for them nonstop. I would have let them go if I'd found them, cause it was my screw up and it wasn't fair. I'd rather them just be able to get up for themselves.
They should cater to the majority, casual or otherwise. The whole reason for new IPs and content is to attract new people. The game will die without that constant influx, and it also needs to be playable for them. If you started this game now and got tunneled and slugged constantly, there's a good chance you'd quit since you don't have any idea how to counter that behavior and you're probably not having any fun.
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Had a super fun match last night where a body-blocking Wraith counted to ten after my unhooks. What a blast.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998621#Comment_3998621
This is a reward after 6 non-tunnel hooks, that only happens once.
This post is about ramping up rewards, not reducing them, so that's in addition to the already proposed rewards for each unique hook. If you use that 40% on the gen with the most progress, that's massive, more so when you've also been receiving the other unique hooking benefits and using them smartly.
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It seems like the consensus has been that, though skill levels vary, survivor is a single role and could maybe have a (tweaked) universal change, but killers (not just players) are all drastically different and blanket incentives aren't ideal. But those incentives were probably chosen over individually reworking each killer because that's going to be very difficult.
I suppose the plan was to help survivors first and make the experience less infuriating then adjust killers accordingly, based on whatever results that produced. But people don't have the patience for that. Just the mere idea caused outrage.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998290#Comment_3998290
Giving killers a pitiful reward isn't helpful. I'm going to say your reward idea should never happen.
40% off a gen and 20% haste is pitiful? Imagine running a regression build in addition to those numbers. Gens would be impossible if the killer has good gamesense or runs gen info perks like Tinkerer. Killers who already don't tunnel (of which there are many) would have their KRs sky rocket with numbers like that.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998464#Comment_3998464
The PTB is acting more like a gatekeeper than a testing platform at the moment. It's a tiny self selected group of players dictating the direction of the game and I feel like we need to acknowledge that participants of the PTB are not at all representative of the player base as a whole.
I hope BHVR bring these changes to a future iteration of Chaos Shuffle. It would be a low risk way for all of us to test the new systems, we could then give our feedback on them and BHVR would have an opportunity to gather better data.
I don't understand why they canceled that Chaos Shuffle plan originally, which sounded way, way more tame than what they rolled out for the much more limited ptb. I don't even get why the basekit Unbreakabke needed to be part of a special mode. Just make a limited mode specifically for testing out new ideas. Ptb, but for everyone. It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch from special events, which have their own unique mechanics, and are clearly a testing ground. They could do it every couple months and gather feedback on different ideas, one or two at a time, instead of rolling ot a zillion changes at once and asking a limited amount of players their opinion, many of whom are performing for social media views.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998102#Comment_3998102
While I can agree that not everyone is a 4man coordinated survivors.
Soloq itself is honestly the weakest thing on survivors side. Playing solo q is a death sentence for the average survivor,, a soloqer isnt safe even with the change as it. in my observations, doesn't feel like a 4 v 1
Yes a blanket buff will help with it. I just can understand 4 man coordinated survivors(I have also seen 2 man survivor swf be strong af in the right hands) will thrive even way more with the changes.
Heck, a 4 man swf even at the skill floor IS better off then soloq at skill floor
its like the difference between S tier killers(blight and high mobility killers) will have WAY more use out of even the 10 n 5% buffs then most of the roster with the 20 n 10%
But its all skill I can understand that 100%.
I think skilled players will thrive more, sure, but that's going to happen with just about any changes. Same for the proposed killer buffs. If your already good, youre going to be better. But these feelings towards parties just don't match my experiences.
For example, I have two friends who play together that are both highly skilled. They synergize their perks and are tactical. They're the sort of people I hate playing against as killer. If I play with them, I have about a 50% chance of escaping. Possibly more.
But a second example is a pair that have been playing a long time and have a solid grip on the game, but they're so devoted to each other and so focused on hook denials that they often get everyone slugged. My escape rate per session with them is usually 0%-30%. They are actually a handicap. A buff to soloq would further discourage me from playing with certain people, which kinda sucks.
I've also had killer lobbies I was 100% sure were soloers and they've been unbeatbale monsters that mesh beautifully. They sure don't need buffs.
What would make more sense to me is buffs for lower MMR that slowly fall off until you get high, and then are eventually gone. A slow loss of training wheels. The probelm is that would be used to diminish people's experiences, because you'd be able to figure out where you are in the MMR exactly. It would also require the matchmaking or not be trash.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998411#Comment_3998411
Its literally the killers job to kill the 4 survivors, without getting their knees broken from hooking accidentally wrong person.
The number needs to be changed to four or five, or a hook counter needs to be visible. But the gen comparsion is not fair. Killers have four people to engage with and spread pressure amongst; survivors have gens to do. I'd love to have some side objectives, but we haven't gotten any.
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@Hannacia said:
Killers literally got punished with these changes. That 6 hooks stages is too much. I saw multiple people playing and they had 5 hooks and 2 people on death hook and 1 hook on another..never tunneled btw and had 1-2 gens left, but they killed 1 of the death hooked survivors and got slapped and weren't able to regress gens anymore. 3 hook stages is more fair since that will counter what is actually heavy tunneling.
I doubt survivors would be very happy if they got penalty of doing gens too fast compared to killers hooks. Imagine getting gens blocked for a minute or 2 minutes because killer needs to catch up.
Survivors do not need basekit tenacity. Take that out and the slugging changes are fine. Is it going to be abused by good survivors and swf..yes but the tenacity makes it worse.
This update will still be survivor sided. The extra pallets will be there on maps that didnt need it. Only maps i can understand is haddonfield and corn maps.
I doubt survivors would be very happy if they got penalty of doing gens too fast compared to killers hooks.
There's literally nothing else for survivors to do but gens in the majority of matches. What else would you like them to do. Stand on a hill and wait for the killer to notice them? If the speed truly is an issue they can increase it (again) from 90 to 100. Or they can nerf gen boosting perks and items.
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I think the concern is less about a delay for fine tuning and more about such a severe neuter that the changes are useless, if any even happen at all. People are still stinging over fog vials. Last I heard, getting tunneled too fast still earns you DC penalty too. It's a little hard to have faith.
At the start of the game understandable. you have chosen to ruin the game for one person yeah punish them. You kill someone like that with 1 - 2 gens left its just smart gameplay not an evil move.
When exactly is the start of the game? Three gens can pop in under two minutes if you play poorly.
But kill someone within 6 hooks with 1 or 2 gens left then its absurd you would be punished for that.
If there's one gen left and you have so few hooks, how much is that penalty really going to matter at that point?
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998271#Comment_3998271
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998272#Comment_3998272
I also make sometimes fun of tryhards, but isnt that a bit harsh?
Yh there are some players who take it too far. They get tilted if they lose, are toxic in endgame chat, etc. But someone who just plays efficiently has not some defects from his childhood.
Its a PvP-game. Its normal to play for the win, if someone just moves his pieces randomly in chess it would be weird. If you just want to do goofy things there are plenty of great games you can enjoy.
Just to be clear:
Wrong matchmaking is a problem. A good chess player tryharding against beginners is also silly.
It would be better if the most efficient method (tunneling) would be not so awful for the opponents.
Chess was my first example. Dont compare me to a certain Chess-Skully bc of that. Winning like that is not healthy.
I dont appreciate people who are unwilling to pull back when it's clear that either the matchmaking was bad or your opponents weren't taking it seriously. What's the point of your 4k if the people you went up against were playing lutes or clearly didn't have the slightest idea what they were doing? Like cool inflated stats. Hope you enjoyed stomping the playground. If I end up in lobbies like that, I chill, otherwise I feel gross afterwards. But some people don't seem to. It's not a war. Don't treat it like one.
But no particular person was accused of anything here. It's a generalization about consistent behaviors in this game.