cogsturning
cogsturning
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016428#Comment_4016428
that’s weird you say that. Because objectively speaking, ever since the dev update got announced at the end of August for the September ptb, before the ptb even hit killers started to tunnel and slug a LOT more than in recent years. I think the main reason is because they know eventually bhvr is going to take action and implement some sort of anti tunneling and anti slug so they’re trying to abuse these tactics before they’re gone or not as effective. I promise you that if you’re somewhat decent as survivor to go play survivor for a full day and you’ll see how much slugging, tunneling and camping has risen.
What's the point though? They'll raise their MMRs to an unmanageable level and it'll be even more difficult if those things are taken away. I agree there's been an uptick, but the reason I can't fathom. It honestly feels more like pettiness. "You wanted changes? Well sucks, you didnt get them. Now kiss the floor for two minutes." That's the vibe I've been feeling as of late.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016437#Comment_4016437
That is VERY rare nowadays. You can more often than not trade on the hook.
This has happened more than ten times in my survivor games in the last week or two. I myself went second three or four times. It's not that rare if the hook is in a strategic spot and the killer knows it. They may even put you there with the intent to make it happen.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016453#Comment_4016453
Dude same. But I'm still staring down the Rift and that price point and I dunno if it's gonna happen lmao
There are three characters in it I use and I still wouldn't have gotten it if I hadn't had the cells to recycle for the last one. I also know I'll get it done. I'm more hyped for the free Felix costume than the Rift.
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@BorisDDAA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016439#Comment_4016439
A friendly blight? No way
We're on a mission to befriend the whole roster. We even managed Twins, Krasue, and Chucky. Sadako and Clown are gonna be hard.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I think the data only tells one story. I think it's accurate, at least via my own stats. But I also think that that doesn't mean the game is fun nor in a good place. So maybe Killers are only guilty of the exact thing they accuse Survivors of—being too caught in their feelings with the game. Maybe they still get the 3 or 4k often enough, but the path to getting there feels like they're having to fight for it and that's not fun for them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016439#Comment_4016439
I'm tempted by the swimsuit but it looks too much like a ken doll in a diaper 😭
I'm tempted by the swimsuit but it looks too much like a ken doll in a diaper 😭
Just wait until I get that blonde Rift head.
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@naeveragedjoe said:
sorry for the unfunny comment, i will just delete it and pretend i never said it
This only makes me more curious.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016398#Comment_4016398
I don't mind the potato squad, as long as we can have fun games together. And that is the true purpose of SWF.
Behold, our unstoppable 4man:
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016319#Comment_4016319
It doesnt need improvement as its doing it's job fine. it's anti-FACE camp not anti camp.
You shouldn't be able to force someone into second stage because the hook is positioned in such a way that no one can get past you standing just outside the radius. It's the same exact problem as face camping, you're just a little further away.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016165#Comment_4016165
What is handholding though? Are hook states being visible to killers now handholding
Yes, I believe it have to be removed. As I remember, I didn't support this change on this forum? Because it forgives killer mistake if he wasn't giving attention to hooks. I even mentioned this under this thread. I don't understand why you used that argument, because I never said here on this forum that the tunnel should suddenly become easier. I just said it shouldn't be removed as play. Effective one.
The issue is also that one mistake from one survivor can blow a match, even though they're one quarter of a whole. Yet as killer, when I'm 100% of a role, I make endless mistakes and I can still win
That’s the asymmetry issue. Not tunnelling one. Bringing anti tunnel, you don’t solve this issue. To solve this issue, solo players should have access to greater autonomy, but also have tools for functioning as a team to reduce the chances of mistakes from the start. And no, it's a lie that the killer is forgiven too much. Killers are forgiven for their mistakes as long as the survivors don't exploit them. Unfortunately, the tendency in matches is that people often don't know how to capitalize on a killer's mistakes because the other three can't even know it happened. Because there are no tools for it. Anti-tunneling doesn't solve this problem either.
As I said above and I've said many times, I will never be convinced that the game should be balanced around how its upper 5% perform and everyone else should just accept that.
I didn't even write the competitive argument that you should play like them. That argument literally exists because they were able to provide a more pure study—when people share the same skill. And that arguments should be built on that. That the game itself should be built on the principle of equal skill and balance and systems should be built around that. I'm not saying to make a limited perk pool like in tournaments and remove anti-camp. I'm saying that they show what the game actually looks like when RGN stops dominating the outcome of a match.
If we're talking about real balance, should strive for it's core principle—that it's 1 vs. 4. And it doesn't do that. It doesn't try to synchronize solo players. It doesn't claim that everyone shares responsibility for errors. Anti-tunneling isn't about providing real quality of life or balance. It's about admitting that the game isn't trying to fix the problem—and that we should continue playing a game that ignores its flaws. I sincerely hate this approach in this game. For years now, this principle has continued to be pushed forward—a patch instead of a real solution. And the players themselves are already supporting it and even ask for, if It's worth giving this crutch to them, and not to the side they don't like
My point is not that some survivors can't play around tunneling, it's that many killers have openly said they can't win without it even though they could if they tried. It's a refusal to grow and change
And it’s also my point that many survivors refuse to grow and change. That attempts out playing tunneling by your call is requires to being fantastic as team. So what? You realy don’t see that this argument literally can be mirrored to both sides and that's why it’s not good to use it? Because this demand for adaptation works both ways. BOTH sides have to adapt. BOTH sides need to learn that tunnelling not going to win every game. Not one. So no anti tunnel, no pro tunnel. The anti-tunnel is nothing more than a tugging at the top of the pile. I literally return to the main point of my argument again and again: the emotional sentiment about acceptance/adaptation doesn't work here, it's fighting for us vs them. The anti-tunnel doesn't solve the game's gaps; it creates a crutch. It remains a tag game, nothing more.
The hook states mention isn't about you specifically, it's a general example. My point is that a very handoldy buff quietly comes to killler--one that was clearly meant to be part of the anti-tunnel--and the killers just rub their greedy hands together. There was even a thread where people brushed it off like it was nothing, some even saying it helps them two-hook without killing (or thinking) which I think is mostly bs. It's yet another killer info advantage with survivors getting nothing similar. In a year, the idea that it wasn't there this whole time will be shocking to people, just like basekit BT. Just like anything they add in. It'd be the same for basekit DS or Kindred or self-recovery. For all the moaning we all do, anything they push through will likely be accepted with time but will immedialty be cried about as handholdy. As for adapting, how many posts do we currently have where killers are weeping about pallets? Yet the calls for adaptation are rather quiet. Adapting only seems to be expected of survivors.
But what is and isn't handholdy? Iri add-ons? Endurance and exhaustion perks? Exposed and aura perks? Bloodlust? The whole damn game is handholdy. I can't tell you how often I've won killer matches because of perks, and I'm not running meta. Survivor, not so much. That's more small, immediate advantages, at least for me.
It actually seems like the consensus amongst most people is that the game needs a whole big overhaul, particularly in regards to individual killers, but this is extremely difficult and I think people are willing to settle for anything since they probably won't get that.
That argument literally exists because they were able to provide a more pure study—when people share the same skill. And that arguments should be built on that
I don't think these people are a good reflection of anything though. Even if the skill is even, they're too high-performing. If BHVR wants this data, they need to host lab rat matches with average-performing survivors that arent on comms and killers who rely on tunneling and give them a set of rules to try out. That would be a more logical data pool for the masses. The idea is to find out what happens amongst normal players with restrictions in place. The ptb did a bad job at that.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016419#Comment_4016419
I also feel like people confuse bully squads with squads that escape alot. Often times the squads that make things the most frustrating to play against arnt the ones with high escape rates. Its the ones that'll take the time to put a blast mine on a 99% gen instead of just finishing it and working on another gen.
Honestly I think that example in particular is memey. I have friends that do this and aren't malicious at all, they just think it's funny and have a light-hearted approach. The true bully squads are players who live to terrorize low-skill killers. I haven't seen one since I was new because they stay lower MMR on purpose, or if I have, I smashed them so thoroughly I didn't even notice.
@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016398#Comment_4016398
Tbh, i play with friends in comms and we escape much more than we should just because we can coordinate saves, chases and gens.
Although not every single 4man is absurdly skilled we can't denty how strong coordination can be in this game. You don't need to be very good at chases to win games in DBD if you are in comms.
But its also true that the top tier 4 man Swf are a rare thing, the same as top tier nurse and blights as rare too.
I agree to some extent, it can be helpful, but parties come in so many shapes and sizes. I have some duos I join up with a lot that are absolutely detrimental to my ER. I accept I'm dying 10 matches in a row if I take the invite. They're too aggressive and they piss the killlers off. I'm kinda trying to repair my ER right how from how much time I spent getting killed with them. It's also not uncommon for the comm chatter to be about anything but the game. It's sometimes more a distraction than a help. Too much laughing makes me miss skill checks.
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The 4man boogieman is not real. You don't become good by playing on a team. You might just be a potato on a team of other potatoes who like each other. The truly skilled 4mans are rarer than people act like they are.
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I actually think Wesker's vault is kinda crap. The pause is too long. It doesn't help you catch up on a tile. I run Lab Photo just to avoid the pallet leaps and get rid of the pallets. You can also bait him into accidentally vaulting, which is the funniest thing ever. I don't mind Legion's because his hit in this form is so weak and he's also kinda easy to knock out of power.
Krasue and Ghoul, being more recent, are a different matter and are way stronger overall. And I think they do play into this theory. It's logical the game would change around its newer killers. Even what they did to Clown's yellow bottles and in the Micheal rework reflected the plan to have more pallets. I do think we'll continue to see more chase-overpowering killers.
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The anti-camp meter needs improvements. Even on a small map like Haddonfieled it's easy for a killler to proxy camp.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016203#Comment_4016203
why are you full team slugging at 5 gens. Like you’re part of the reason this game is so miserable.
It's not something I typically do and it was scuzzy, I fully admit that, but occasionally exploiting a bad system makes it easier for me to talk about how bad it truly is. The point remains. OP speaks like it's the survivors fault when these things happen, but I didn't do anything skillful here. I was carried by perks. What were these people supposed to do better? There's nothing in place to help survivors in a situation like this except people saying get good. Even the 90s recovery from the ptb wouldn't have been enough to fix this. The current system is relying on killer's being honorable, and that's not enough.
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@Vampwire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016180#Comment_4016180
I'm not trying to be mean but a majority of the time tunneling and slugging is only good because the team is bad. I agree not everybody should have to sweat just to have a fun match. But the majority of killers shouldn't be getting 3-4 man slugs in the first place. Everytime my team gets slugged hard, or I get a bunch of slugs as killer, is largely because people don't want to heal or split up. Usually both. 90% of this game from survivor is not getting in a bad position to begin with. Some people do play like losers, so you just have to play better. It's that simple.
I dont think that's quite fair. Soloqers aren't much of a team, so the concept of teams aside, the info-heavy nature of survivor sometimes makes things snowball so impossibly fast that they can't counter. Some examples from my matches:
These matches were about two minutes long. Both groups failed to read my perks and they really didn't have much time to do so. The more people that showed up, the more aura read I gained from their items. The Weave symbol would have shown up on their screen but they were probably too focused on the problem at hand. One by one they came into aura range to try for a save and got downed. They wouldn't see the Forced Hesitation coming, nor do people expect Lightborn on someone running Franklin's. So were they bad? Idk, I never got to find out. I wouldn't even say they screwed up. They just didn't have a chance to try and there's no comebacks without perks.
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Disregard. I messed up.
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I've gotten killed so fast in the two event matches I've played as survivor I haven't even gotten to find out. Didn't even get to touch a gen, for that matter.
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I know M. Shadows is big on gaming so Aveneged makes sense to me. T-shirts would be cool.
Visually though, I'd like to see Ghost, even if I disliked their last three albums. Papa would make a sick Legendary skin for someone.
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Killers are complex to design and to learn. Survivors are just skins. There are only 7 more survivors than killers despite being easier to make. Not everything is bias.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016114#Comment_4016114
But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunnelling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killer I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponents. The power balance is off because of this tactic.
But is it actually so? Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes. Solo Q just tends to make mistakes more and they are less forgiving. And it’s how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't mean they deserve handholding and turn of their mistakes as punishment for killer if they decide to capitalize it.
It doesn't mean every game should evolve around high play. And it doesn't in this game. Nothing prevents people from trying out different builds, or meme around. But artificial mechanics like busted S tier, new pallet density heavily backfire and give people tools they don't actually deserve. Mobility on killers forgiving macro mistakes. Spammable power forgets micro mistakes. Genrush perk forgets poor efficiency from the start. 4 chase build forgets the lack of clean movements. But you can genrush and fail because you were too greedy. You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake. So is tunnelling a problem here, or people getting frustrated that the other side can heavily punish for misplay or mistake? And because it's a 1 vs 4 thing, if one survivor made a mistake, everyone has to share responsibility for it.
So it doesn't have a real reason to scrap it from the ground. Anti-tunnel PTB wasn’t about helping QoL. It wasn’t about fixing the issues I mentioned before. Moreover, it gifted haste power creep to killers like Spirit, Clown, Springtrap, providing actually cheesy gameplay, because you don't need to use your brain a lot moving with additional haste, making every first hit free. While for actually poor mobility killers it wasn't enough most of the time. Making base kit DS also does not solve every one of those issues, everything that includes “anti” and provides so much for free as anti-tunnel does it would likely be just a new game mechanic that plays the game instead of the player. Perks and powers are already doing this on a great level, and you are just suggesting adding another layer to this. Its initial mechanics are broken, not the way people play the game. As I have told and will continue to claim, anti-tunnel is an extreme change of meta in tag war and indulging specific sentiment. If it's the initial reason to bypass balancing, then you can’t balance it.
You don't need to be a fantastic player to avoid or try to counterplay stuff like tunnelling. Moreover, you can play in a way that makes tunnelling a desperate move or turns out to be a killer mistake and capitalise on it. You don’t need to have voice chat to play decently in a team. Your team have to consist of the same level and you should have some resemblance to comms and that's enough to cover the majority of cases. I’m literally playing solo Q myself. My movements aren't clear, I don't bring a full meta package, yet nothing prevented me from getting a solid 50% ER which is already above what devs are aiming for the average player. So as much as you can say you can comfortably play without tunnelling, as much as I can say it's not an unmanageable thing.
If a player is extremely casual, they shouldn’t expect average rates. Because SBMM doesn't work in this game and you would likely be put in a place with a more experienced person or some cursed region and busted mechanics hell. Casual players should ask for more opportunities to play casually rather than asking for hand hand-holding mechanism against other players just because they handicap themselves and expect others to do the same.
If top cap players in more sterile conditions like the same skill set, no repetitive perks showing killer can’t function well without tunnelling, then it's true. Do you like it or not, but their showcases have more validity for consideration because they at least try to manage balancing in custom while ordinary matches can’t do this more cleanly. They are providing more cold facts.
Do u wish to balance the game, or balance the game around being broken? It's a huge difference. If you're asking for the last one, I’m not sharing your principle.
When this game has more “sterility” in a play, maybe it would be an opportunity to actually prove that you can balance anti-tunnel PTB around. Right now the only argument is literally:
“But I can play without it”
And I can play with it as a survivor. Wow. So who is right?
“But many people wish for it”
And many people don't. Wow again, who are you gonna prioritise then?
It's impossible to present such argumentation objectively. They are still about emotional sentiment.
And it’s how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't mean they deserve handholding and turn of their mistakes as punishment for killer if they decide to capitalize it.
What is handholding though? Are hook states being visible to killers now handholding? I personally think it is because you can be more braindead and keep track of nothing, yet everyone has been fairly silent about it. Is basekit BT handholding or are we just used to it now and think it's fine? Because basekit DS would be similar. It would be a simple and small semi-solution, and not an unbeatable one, because you can still catch the person again if you want to commit to them, and they still have to manage the skill check. Even as is, four people running it doesn't keep a killer from winning, it just extends chases.
Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes. Solo Q just tends to make mistakes more and they are less forgiving.
This is a view I don't agree with, the concept of mistakes and how to take advantage of them. For one, it's hard for survivors to know what a mistake even is until they have a lot of hours because the game doesn't tell them anything. But if I'm on hook and a random unhooks me in the killer's face and now I'm getting tunneled, it wasn't my mistake, but I'm going to pay for it. When I play killer I recognize that a team is four individuals that might not be in sync and that they probably aren't talking. That's why I try not to punish the wrong people. The person who did the unhook learns nothing because soloq is selfish and they probably don't care much that they set someone else up to die. They probably won't even realize it was their fault. And there doesn't even need to be a mistake. A Ghoul could be engaged in a chase on the other side of the map and then dead stop after hearing an unhook to hurl himself over for the tunnel.
You don't need to be a fantastic player to avoid or try to counterplay stuff like tunnelling.
A survivor has to be good at looping and pathing to outdo a tunneler, so that's skill and knowledge. The RNG also matters there, in regards to hook and tile placement.
The issue is also that one mistake from one survivor can blow a match, even though they're one quarter of a whole. Yet as killer, when I'm 100% of a role, I make endless mistakes and I can still win. Even beyond tunneling, I can get no hooks and get a 4k in end game. That has never felt fair to me, even when I'm the one doing the winning. Much of this game has to do not with skill or mistakes, but luck--mostly it's good luck for killers and bad luck for survivors.
I'm tired of saying this but I don't think the patch should have gone through as it was. They should have started with some smaller aspect, like the 90s recovery, and went from there. The dead ptb is just that: dead. New ideas need discussing.
Do you like it or not, but their showcases have more validity for consideration because they at least try to manage balancing in custom while ordinary matches can’t do this more cleanly.
As I said above and I've said many times, I will never be convinced that the game should be balanced around how its upper 5% perform and everyone else should just accept that.
“But I can play without it”
And I can play with it as a survivor. Wow. So who is right?
My point is not that some survivors can't play around tunneling, it's that many killers have openly said they can't win without it even though they could if they tried. It's a refusal to grow and change. Some people have crutched on tunneling so hard that they can't fathom learning to live without it. It's holding them back from any sort of true skill.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014978#Comment_4014978
We missed the countdown to 400.
Important landmarks. Here's to 500.
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To some extent I agree, but I think it also has to do with how often you face these killers, and who plays as them. Sadako is in my top three for sweatiest most merciless players. I hate going against her. Not because of her abilities, but because of her players. I'm sure it isn't all of them, but I've never met a chill or friendly Sadako. Vecna's fly is overturned and I think people are sleeping a little on that fact. I can't even get to a tile without him running me down. Freddy is not super common. I had a period recently where I was playing him and it was clear most of my opponents didn't understand him well.
And yeah, there's no real info but private research. You'd have to either play as the killer or watch videos. There's no good in-game tutorials. Yet this game expects survivors to not just understand the overall micro and macro gameplay, but also evey killers powers, add-ons, and perks. The info-heaviness for survivor is intense and the game does pretty much nothing to help with it. KRs will reflect that ignorance.
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It never cease to perplex me why I don't see these rampant DCs in my killer matches. When they happen, they're towards the end, and don't effect the game because it's already been decided. And even then, they're not that common. Maybe one or two in a session of fifteen-ish games.
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I have no Twitch account so it would be nice.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016052#Comment_4016052
So you even have less signals and facts to justify specific changes, but justifies it anyway or trying to do so because in theory people silent and then tilted?
That was my point from the start - you can’t justify changes to the game only pure by emotional demand. Because some people may be silent, or can be too loud. You can’t create actual definitive to speak of actual majority, so if you trying to appellate to some changes, you should stop using arguments about burn out, tilt, emotional feelings. Until you wouldn’t be able to somehow proof actual majority opinion. Which is directly impossible in this game. Everyone experiences burnout one way or another, and for different reasons. You have to bring arguments beside it and argue about their validity. Not to cling to that “but what people feel”. Many people even not realising why exactly they experience specific emotions.
You never know why and what they actually feel. There's no point in playing the hero here and trying to present your desires for change as "the common good," especially when it’s a lack of compromise and you are focused solely on satisfying a very specific sentiment.
If people actually had influence on me, than I had to stop to play long time ago (which didn't happen), so it's another attempt presenting wishful thinking as reality. I understand why you may think like this, but I’m calling straight — no, it is not what I’m actually thinking. And I explained why many times. My point is that I don't listen to loud voices and prefer to value people in the community when they've proven that their position is justified by something other than an inability to emotionally cope with the situation in the game. People with actual experience in this game would likely to be silent not because they tilted only. But just maybe because they realise you can’t build whole sentiment around emotions only. It's potential thing, or potentially not. Nothing really can point on 100% truth.
So Stop. Speaking. For other people. Especially when you complain on some content creator brainwashing. The only thing that actually happening here is you and me defending specific vision of the game. If you want it to defend, bring something else. Not only “people feel so”. My first post under this thread is literally about this. Even if it was addressed to other personal initially. I told this person that focusing only on feedback as arguments is initially bad idea, because it plays along to emotion x emotion fight, rather than actually meaningful discussion. Seems I have to repeat same stuff again.
Stop making it evolve around emotions, because when you do like this, you heavily neglect emotions of others. And you consciously putting other person in unfavourable position, because you are pretty acknowledged that this person can’t argue for emotions. No one can and have right to because it's subjectivity and people can provide different conclusions from same initial. It's ineffective way to develop discussions. It's just a way to validate position when you don’t have other tools.
It's just a straight goal shift here, and I don’t feel any sense in this dialogue anymore. Because this is a return to the same point where my first post here started. And I’m pretty sure, next posts will force to repeat same stuff but in another wrap up from both sides.
If people actually had influence on me, than I had to stop to play long time ago (which didn't happen), so it's another attempt presenting wishful thinking as reality.
Influence doesn't mean you'll quit. My friends have influence on me because we're like-minded. This will be the case for most people. You can say it's not for you, but let's just say I'm doubtful of that.
You're arguing against emotional responses but you're showing me screenshots of people's quick responses to it as an example of their caliber. That's pure emotion, and with no context. I get mean messages all the time, whether I win or lose. I have no screenshots to show you because I'm not nearly as emotional as you think I am, and I don't care about these short, out-of-context, heated comments. They're not real discussions. They tell me nothing. Someone might call you a baby killer when they normally wouldn't have said anything because they lost the last 10 matches and they're fed up. Someone might say gg even if they hated you because they won the last 10 matches and don't mind the loss. There's zero nuance to end game messages. The only post-game things I ever say are friendly. Doesn't mean I'm a happy ray of sunshine. It means I'm mature enough to keep my negative feelings to myself. You can use forum convos as examples because they're lengthy, have context, and paint a full picture. The only conversations I take to heart are the real, long, in-depth ones, not randoms saying "you suck" and that's all. If I did, I too would have a bad feeling about the playerbase. I've seen so many people in this forum cry about end game chat and show how much it bothers them and I think that's pathetic. It clearly effects them. My skin isnt that thin. Have real conversations. Stop caring about these tiny messages. The bigger picture is all that matters. Even anxiety about tbagging at gates has been used as an excuse for overly aggressive playing. "I wouldn't slug everyone at end game but I hate being taunted at gates." Talk about emotional. But we're also not robots. Games feed into emotions. You can't slice it out with a scalpel. It's part of the experience and must be accounted for.
But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunneling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killler I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponenets. The power balance is off because of this tactic.
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I play SWF and I think this is needed as well. That, or a 5th limited perk slot that let's solos choose from team aura perks like Empathy, Empathetic Connection, Bond, etc. This would be somewhat unfair to me as party-player who runs Empathy regardless, but I'd like to see sooloq get something. Maybe I'd play it again if it had help.
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@MDRSan said:
Counterpoint, aside from the matches I've been intentionally playing friendly in because it's supposed to be a fun event, not a sweatfest - I've been doing alright. I'm maybe noticing the pallets a little bit but they really aren't impacting my matches all that much.
Jack of all trades geez
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016072#Comment_4016072
45% escape rate seems pretty darn good to me, especially if you play solo queue. Are you ok with this, or do you feel like it should be higher?
I didn't express any discontent with my ER so that's neither here nor there, and no, I'm not soloqing. My monthly was hovering around that number before the pallet update. That's my point. I'm not getting a 60% suddenly.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015891#Comment_4015891
They do have Alan's outfits from AW1 and American Nightmare for purchase in the store.
Personally, I would have chosen Sheriff Breaker or Barry over Rose Marigold, but I'm biased since I've only played the first game.
Rose has a hilarious mini game in 2 where she's blasting monsters with a shotgun and dropping one-liners so the choice made some sense.
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Here's a larger sample then 11 games. My 30 day rates from 213 matches, my name and the date, pallet update included. I don't think the survivors I've faced feel the same way you do. Breaking the endless pallets is annoying but it's not touching me.
Meanwhile, my survivor monthly is business as usual:
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015922#Comment_4015922
So, “arguing about balancing” is practically impossible
Quote me.
Where this variations in studio?
If YOU want to claim that none of them can work, it is up to YOU to dismantle each and every single one of them. You are the one making the claim, you back it up.
it’s in psychology when u play alone against team.
Psychology is not balance. How you 'feel' about things doesn't change the balance of it. Whether you have a 50% winrate that feels good, or you have one that feels bad, both are balanced.
Reduce quantity to feel less overwhelmed. Even when tunneling was completely removed from many other assym games due to various dev decision to fight with logic, new players always had a tendency to “target”. Because it’ s logical. “I’m alone and it’s 4 of them in different places. I need to do something with it… probably making it 3 vs 1”
Players always choose effectiveness if they don’t handicap and handhold. Saying “u have to play less effective just because other part feels frustrated encountering it” is not making game fair. It’s making the game unintuitive and players brain turned off chase auto pilot machines. Thanks nuh. If u want to focus on pure chase and cancel any sense of logical macro knowledge, than this game shouldn’t be 1 vs 4 from the start. Or macro should be absolutely the same for both sides, which isn’t in this game, because it’s assymetry.
And anti tunnel on PTB didn’t provide at least nerfed version of such effectiveness. It put everything to linier and limited gameplay. Macro gameplay died from killer side in sake of emotional comfort of other, yet this macro didn’t die for survivors. Moreover, it was buffed and more easier to pull at. So nothing was actually compinsated. Hook incentives is a crutch of this system, not an actually working solution.
And in all of this, you have not mentioned kill or win rates, and thus balance, even once. All of this is pure speculation on the subject of game design. None of it is substantiated either, because guess what?
I never played like that.
So your assertions about how people play the game is already proven to be a generalisation at best. Pretty sure @crogers271 and @cogsturning have both also told you that they don't play like that. And others have said the same.
But again, none of this is even touching on balance. All of it is gameplay design, not balance. If you want to prove that it is fundamentally destroying balance, talk about kill rates and win rates, not killer sentiment or game feel. Neither are those are in the domain of balance.
If DBD failed after 9 years in removing tunnelling, maybe then they need to build gameplay around it then.
Quick question: What, in those 9 years, have they attempted?
Because unlike the list of possible ways to implement anti-tunnel, the actual anti-tunnel implemented into the game is a very, VERY short list.
This is almost literally, word-for-word, 'We have tried nothing and are all out of ideas'.
So your assertions about how people play the game is already proven to be a generalisation at best. Pretty sure @crogers271 and @cogsturning have both also told you that they don't play like that. And others have said the same.
Yeah, I don't go into to matches saying "I'm gonna tunnel out the first poor bastard I see." I also don't see hard tunneling in most matches. When it does happen though, especially to a player who can't handle it, it ruins the match. That's why it's an issue.
I've also never used DS, DH, Made for This, Babysitter, or Background Player. I play in parties, but we bring what we want and we do what we want. That hyperfocused, aggressive sort of team coordination is not at all enjoyable to me and I'd venture to say, most players below upper MMR. And that's the issue: upper MMR, a small group around which all arguments revolve. Most people don't play like them yet were all supposed to bow down to what their actions dictate. My playstyle and opinon are worthless to these highly competitive players. If anything, it's just ammo they can use against the community, because I'm a mid MMR, no-meta player who doesn't use my "full kit" and doesn't play like there's a paycheck involved.
I also don't understand all this talk about macro. Hard tunneling is micro. You're trying to shove someone out so you can "macro" only three people. It's less to maintain on the map, less pressure to assert, just less work and thinking in general, if it's succeeds. The best macro plays I've seen are killers who are constantly on top of everyone and you feel like you can't even look at a gen without them bearing down on you.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015881#Comment_4015881
Are you basing what you do on complaints? Who cares what people say?
I care what people say when they actually showed some sense of competency. The only thing about tunnelling I see it’s either frustrating which is pure emotional sentiment and it never would be about competency, or people calling it uncounterable, which can be break down by many arguments. From that the issue of S tier and not other one, to that it is counterable.
I didn't say people with 12l hours experience complained. It was in different sentences. I told about people complaining on my style of play even with humble loadout. People like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SB1BDE2MO8XW/img-1801.png
Just straight away are more mature than players like this
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SUTOZE06SQE0/img-1800.jpeg
And the difference they had is only about matter of experience. I played these matches absolutely the same way. No hard tunnel, just spreading between two hooks. The difference is in weight of experience from both me and opposite side in micro gameplay. The match above was way harder, because people relied on their loops more than on perks.
People who actually was better then me never trolled/harrassed at the same time complaining about tunneling. They just take their win and proud of this. They can mock, I accept this, because it's a game and people can celebrate. I don't really want to sweat for people below and prefer “busted MMR” but with guys above who doesn't bothered by the way of how I’m playing, as much as me. I don't cry in EG and blame people if they won, even if it was unfair match. Because unfairness doesn't come from way of play. It comes from RGN, base mechanics and lack of SBMM. And playing sfw/tunneling doesn't related to any of this.
All this really tells me is that what people say (those pesky emotions you don't like) influences your reactions. People being silent doesn't mean they're not tilted. And people expressing anger doesn't mean they're mad all the time. Whatever you see in chat is a small sample and you're not having a full, meaningful convo with these people.
This just reinforces my feeling that the end game chat has way too much influence on how people feel about this game.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016008#Comment_4016008
As I mentioned, if you take out tunneling/slugging, and gather data from there on, it would be easier to balance the game after that point. That also includes the survivors.
This would be the ideal, but I think they went for the blanket fix because it was easier. Imagine how much work they'll have to do on each killer.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015834#Comment_4015834
You will be surprised , but I regularly have games where I don’t tunnel. I barely hardtunnel even - before first kill most of the time I have at least 5-8 hooks. But I clearly make difference when you can do it and when not. Expecting killer not to tunel when 3 first gen popped within 2 minutes of the match is baffling. I don’t need this git gud myph because I’m already sure enough my lobbies is pretty different from yours. You were complaining on try hard survivors as well. I welcome them. As you noticed, I never cried about this forum on full stacks, didn’t demand any nerfs for survivors. I’m fine with people having benefits from the way they are playing. This game is about taking benefits. As soon as survivor can potentially make benefits from playing in team, as soon as killer will tunnel, people just have to cope with it when they face opponents who have opportunity to take this benefits while they not. Because it’s their conscious chose go to the game with specific set up. I don’t expect regular 4k playing trapper. I wouldn’t expect coordination from my solo q. I wouldn’t ask for nerfing opposite side and yk it.
I don’t want to “impress” playing nice every day, just because lol, of course my opponent will take it happily when I artificially handicap myself just because they can’t deal with it in other way. But even so, I somehow still have to deal with benefits they can get. No, thank you. When I feel people can’t deal with me I more likely would relax and don't play through pressure at all. If I see that people know how to play or at least have the gen efficiency, I won't give them a free win.
I never heard complaints about tunneling from players who actually good in this game. So I doubt I needs this appreciation from players who lack some good macro/micro play from themselves
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UL7DPE8UYFNC/img-1793.jpeg
As soon as such lobbies freely exist, can be regular and can get benefits from in game mechanics, I wouldn’t expect from any benefits being taken from killers beside nerfing some S tiers. You even don’t need such items to stomp half of the roaster most of the time. Sure, if killer wouldn’t be able to tunnel I would be pretty happy to it, because I can get benefits from my funny busted stuff as survivor, and they aren’t :₽ I can enjoy playing my sfw. They can’t enjoy dealing with me, because they wouldn’t have options for pressure anymore aside of playing S tier with same 4 perks. Just in sake of facing actually good teams.
I can revert stuff and do the same — times I was genuinely impressed from the team is time when survivor looped me two minutes in total and I had one gen left, so people literally force me to either give up or being satisfied with one cheap kill in case of tunneling. And it was solo q. This is actual skill. Just do it. Oh wait… “It’s to sweaty and unfun”. Then why I have to sweat as much when majority even unable to do it themselves usually? Comp area is tunneling and genrushing. So, nuh, I don’t see the logic here.
I’m already improving. Damn, I was playing with only whisperers or pursuer in my load out and were time to time facing 12k hours players with full meta. People were able to complain on THIS load out in games, even when I didn’t hardtunnel/slug. Or they complained on tunneling when literally was bringing the strongest stuff for their playstyle. Ok, I didn’t tunnel whole match, hooked everyone twice, but brought some meta — what I hear? Complaints. So, it’s not about appreciation. It’s about inability to take L from other side and expecting limitations of opponents.
If games decided me having 1k 90% of the time have to deal with people who have 3 times more hours and I still have high rates on daily basis, maybe I already improved enough, and it’s not a matter of cheesy tunneling, but some people being allergic to opposide side being able to take benefits at all. For me the actual difference between strong and weak player is how often they bring full meta to help themselves. So… why I need aprovements or appreciation from other people, when I already kinda regularly getting this no matter do I tunnel/not? Actually good people either pressed gg or complimented me already, so I’m pretty sure I don’t need anymore. So don’t tell me about improvements and appreciation pls. I already doing it and got what I wanted from people who actually mattered for me. I don’t play to impress survivor who regularly crying about tunneling, but able to find any excuse for benefits they brought themselves. I play for the other kind of people. And for myself mainly. I could go further and would go further, sure, but as I told before, I have different priorities. And it’s not a creating an impression of good guy on people I usually would likely to outplay anyway. My improvements is focusing on micro currently, so I’m playing m2 only. I am preferring to handicap myself in other ways.Don’t see any sense in repeating same stuff anymore
I'm pretty average, yeah, but you're talking to me like I dont understand the "real" DbD. Out of 200+ matches my 30 day KR is nearly 80%. Do you think I don't get good people? Last match I played:
3man on top. Super coordinated. Second chance and endurance perks. I get plenty of this, and this isn't even a killer I've used much. I have played the game. I know what the good people look like.
You said the good players don't complain about tunneling. Then you said the 12k hour experienced players complain about tunneling. Which one is it?
Are you basing what you do on complaints? Who cares what people say?
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Doesn't take much to become iconic nowadays, I guess.
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@Shroompy said:
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Increased gen regression from 20% to 100%
- Limits maximum amount of Scourge Hooks to spawn around the map to 0.
I support this change.
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I dont know why they don't do this on at least a small scale. If the actual ptb can't be turned into an event, they could at least incorporate aspects of potential changes into events. They were going to do the basekit Unbreakable in the Chaos Shuffle then just canceled the whole thing. Stuff like that would help them gather large masses of feedback from a more varied playerbase on one idea at a time, instead of throwing a thousand ideas out at once for one small group to try.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015816#Comment_4015816
It's not everyone, but many people who've stated the same age range to mine feel a similar way. Many of us hate what's happened because of streaming and e-sports. Games have become very public and performartive, when they were once private or amongst friends
I mean, they are a whole generation who simply more solvent these days, and that's... okay? The world is changing, and so are entertainment options. I grew up in an environment where games were both a competition and a way to spend time with friends. I mean... lol, those two things aren't incompatible, and games have even evolved in that regard today
I can’t fit this thing myself because I simply didn’t hit age where younger generation is a whole grown up group. Yet I hope I would be able to accept that trends can be changed.
And of course content creators would have a pull. As well as your own age here is pulling this convo to such a way. But how it denies the fact that mature and mindful people able to have their own minds and thoughts about stuff… We literally living in era where one click and some person can be cancelled, doesn’t matter by actual reason or some ridiculous thing. So you heavily exaggerate influence of celebs on people mindset. They are influencing as much as advertisement you looking at or some actors from films, the only difference is other format and parasocial relationships, but this is straight off topic here.Anything can build, form, and contribute to people opinion. Internet and content creators doesn’t work in some special aggressive way. Like you are literally accept concept of games, and you are playing yourself a pretty violent game where one role is supposed to kill. This theme is pretty romanticised in this game because it’s not real - yet you make a clear difference between graphic and actual violence. Then why it can’t be applied to content creators and people who able to divide influence from their internal thoughts — You can’t call them brainwashed zombies by default, especially when you yourself staying away from this part of culture and don’t really understand this. I honestly starting to feel concern, because it’s looking like conspiracy talk rather than healthy conversation.
I don't think you necessarily need "anti" tunnel, but if you make it very, very hard to get value from, people will stop. Make DS basekit or something. Bring in Elusive. Give people super haste off hook. Just make it a waste of the killers time and they'll naturally stop.
It is anti. Literally. And here we are again. “It can be counterplayed, but this is frustrating, so it should be stopped by making the same thing but for other side”. Idk. Straightforwardly selfish mindset, as much as selfish as grumbling that the modern generation treat games differently. It’s not compromises, it’s “me matters more”. When you aren’t even able to prove you are an actual majority or vast player base
Ok chill, I said I was not young. I didn't say I was playing DbD from my nursing home bed. I'm not stuck in the past, but I've seen those changing trends and I don't think many of them have been positive for humanity. I'd say things are much worse than they were 20 years ago, at least where I am, in regards to human behavior and general mindset. But they're better in other ways. Social media was just a mostly harmful idea, and I think the future of purely human ingenuity and thought is ending and I don't love that.
You can’t call them brainwashed zombies by default, especially when you yourself staying away from this part of culture and don’t really understand this.
I don't watch them, but I see how they're regarded and how people talk about them. I said I don't know who those people are, and that's true, but I've heard their names. Over and over and over and over. "This new so-and-so video explains everything." "Whoever-the-hell had a great idea." "Some-dude showed how the new ideas are bad." I don't know if a day passes without one of these remarks. At least on an active day. Pretty sure you can find a video or two in this thread.
Anything can build, form, and contribute to people opinion
Sure. Everything you take in makes you who you are. Some people just have a really strong sense of self. Some don't. Some are trend following basics. As for fictional influence, I've been watching horror movies since I was a little kid, but my line between fiction and reality couldn't be any stronger. Nothing in fiction scares or disgusts me because I understand it's not real. But some people actually do act out their violent fantasies through games. And hey, that's fine too, as long as it stays in the game.
Some people can be cancelled, but another one will spring up to replace them. Many despicable people maintain positions, whether it be celebrities, content creators, or politicians. The cancelations are very selective. And yeah, advertising is just as bad. I don't think I'm overstating the problem. If there's garbage trying to influence you 24/7, some will get through.
Somehow this is more off topic than the DC stuff...
Straightforwardly selfish mindset
I don't care as much about tunnelng for my own sake as much as you seem to think. I don't enjoy it, but I also don't see it every game. Plenty of killer-players cope without it, myself included. But if I'm selfish for wanting tunneling combated, then you're selfish for wanting it to stay, because you yourself benefit from it. You say you want to improve and be competitive. Then improve. The only opponents who've ever impressed me are the ones who land their hits, mind game well, have great macro plays, and keep up constant pressure all while spreading hooks. These make me go, "holy hell, this person is far above my caliber" and I couldn't care less that they beat me because they're fantastic players and I love to come across those. No tunneler has ever made me think this way. I don't care if you have a 90% KR and are a top player in the game. I've never been impressed, and I never will be.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015796#Comment_4015796
It's funny you mention the instruments. I don't really play much Wraith but brought him into an event match yesterday and we almost had a full band between me, a Mikaela, and I think a Vee. I've been trying to limit my friendly matches to killers I don't play much - I hate the kind of monster that stat tracking website has turned me into.
I've done the 4man band a few times. It's wonderful. I hope we get a Wraith to go ding ding with us sometime.
Haha yeah I legit just said that about the stat site in another post. I wish they'd never made that visible. I don't want to care about these stupid, pointless numbers.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015789#Comment_4015789
I cannot stress this enough: I do not watch content creators. I don't even know who these people you're listing are. I'm not young. When I was, we just played games. We didn't watch other people do so while they blathered on about it. The idea is nonsense to me and I've seen the concept harm gaming over the past decade.
So, it turns out to be an issue of misunderstanding cause of generation differences? Than it’s understandable, but makes it… even sad in some point, because it basically a prejudice thing. I hope we just go
I’ll bring some personal stuff here. I am game design student and highly interested in marketing. So if I’m getting to the game, I would likely to visit content both about production from devs and community itself (last thing especially). Recently I finished remake of Silent Hill 2, and after this went to visit some play through of other people and devs interviews. It was my hobby even before I got the chance to work and study for this industry, and I know a lot of people especially my age doing the same.
It doesn’t cancel the fact people like me have our own thoughts about the game. It doesn’t mean we blindly follow creators. I might change opinion, but it never would lead to extreme point just because some guy with bunch of m viewers told I’m wrong. If person doing this in game, they would likely more to be “brainwashed” in every term. So it’s not about people watching creators. It’s about people having Illiteracy online or in real life can be easily influenced as well. But to be honest... I hardly ever see such people. I would be eather optimistic here and believe that people rather misunderstand each other and it created an impression rather than actually… like this. I really don’t want to go deep, but just… living in CIS region last years showed me enough of people being actually brainwashed or lack of self concern. Content creators is the last issue of this community. Toxicity demand? Issue. Tribalism? Issue. Some popular guy having opinion and majority agree with them? Like… nuuh… you may not like it, but it’s not a problem.I play this game everyday. Sometimes I have more than 500 matches a month. I have a relaxed opinon, but I am in no way the majority. I have a fair amount of friends though, and they are less intense than me. And one by one, they're drifting off to other games.
And I also active player myself, but vast majority of my friends are having a tendency to be more competitive. Like, I was brought to the game, not me accidentally founding it, and I can say only one of my friend is actually more chill. And many of my friends also left the game, because current situation of game is not about players playing with each other, but rather meta handholding. So you see, we don’t have regular player base here active on forums. And we can’t be their representative. If looking on media, community was always into some kind of competition, challenges and try harding, yet being able to meme around it and bring it in semi casual way is also important. The things started to changed only in recent years, when meta literally became chokeholding such demand. And it’s messed up in such a big extent we can’t say a lot what actual majority asking for. And even if they are asking - are they right? Or is devs reaction to ask is right? For me currently I see a trend of extremal changes I don’t really like. We either push anti tunnel, either nerf OTR and bring hook stages. We either havily nerf stealth, then bring fog vials, and then nerf them even heavier. I can’t say trying to appeal to majority is a right way for this game anymore. DBD should gain specific identity before doing this. Or working purely on compromises terms.
Like, tunneling is frustrating, but people for 9 years keep fighting for to be able do it? So why just not accept it as a thing and actually work for direct QoL?Firstly, heavily nerf S tiers or bring build up power concept to every killer power, rather using multi tool approach. Secondly, make gameplay actually around it. Survivor hookes/slugged? Kindred and troubleshooter. Teammates see anticamp progression and antitunnel perks. DS or any other antitunnel perks should have a priority in shrine of secrets and always take at least one slot. Decent hook rgn and map changes to prevent bottlenecks or unfair spawn… Return ability to stealth in easier way if killer made a mistake and lost a target. Finally, made a tutorial and bring some literacy to this game. Many killers can create nasty hook pressure with their power, and it’s really hard for player to figure it out themselves. Tutorial is nothing in this game. Finally, encourage people who was tunneled, and their team escaped, because they actually contributed the most for the match… currently game simply denies how actually important is to be acknowledged that player can start to play aggressively at any moment
And finally, let people chill enough during events, where tunneling or genrush isn’t a potential thing, so people shouldn’t be worried their opponent can put them to stress point. So events will start to have actual meaning, idk…
Anti tunnel is simply bringing other system, that people will be rant about over and over. It’s IMO, I personally had enough of this. When game already have stuff that requires work and improvements, people asking for crutches. This is already some level of learned helplessness.
I just can’t believe you can make an anti tunnel good thing. As well as making tunnel absolutely free in this game. Compromises… It’s all I wish for this game
Yes, pay attention and you'll see the generational divide here. It's not everyone, but many people who've stated the same age range to mine feel a similar way. Many of us hate what's happened because of streaming and e-sports. Games have become very public and performartive, when they were once private or amongst friends. Once, your goal was to beat your own score. Then it was to get on top of the leaderboards or improve your KDR, but not to show off for other people, for your own satisfaction. Youtube was a thing, but not like it is now. Now people want eyes on them and do things for attention. Even I'm now worrying about my stats because I feel like they have weight, despite having no audience, and I hate that I feel that way and I wish they never made them visible.
living in CIS region last years showed me enough of people being actually brainwashed or lack of self concern
I'm defintely not comparing it to socio-political brainwashing. The word is hyperbolic as I'm using it. And I'm not saying you're a zombie because you're young. Not at all. But everywhere I go, I see people (of all ages) staring at screens, absorbing other people's views and antics while doing zero research themselves. Today I saw someone use ChatGBT to form a single sentence about why they liked their job because they couldn't think up a generic lie for themselves. It's difficult for me to believe people are thinking for themselves nowadays. I hear more people say they heard something from Tiktok or X than from a valid news source or a book. It's not everyone, but it's a lot of people.
I think these popular creators have more pull than you think, but it's subtle. They have charisma, that's why they're popular, and they can win people over without them even realizing it. I don't mean a 180 flip, but if you're on the fence or, more likely, don't understand a topic well, someone else can convince you if you're not super self-aware that it's happening. People are easily influenced . Even one regular person someone respects on a topic could potentially sway their view. This is just humans.
Personally, I don't think many of the forum users are a good sample. You don't join a forum and post regularly for something you don't have strong feelings about. None of my friends are here except the ones I made here. And you wanting to do this as a job is certainly not a typical perspective either, even more so than the rest of us.
Like, tunneling is frustrating, but people for 9 years keep fighting for to be able do it?
I agree with most of this. To me, the way to reduce tunneling is to make killers fairly even in power, I agree. The problem I see right now is that many people have inflated KR rates because of this tactic yet they don't have the true skill to maintain those rates without cheese tactics, so the rates are just off, and the whole game is off becuase of that. The tutorial is trash. I want the wincon for survivors changed.
But you can't convince me to bring perks to counter these tactics. I refuse to bend on this. I won't throw my build in the trash to conuter some people's choices. And most are useless now anyway. I got tunneled out by Blight at 5 gens yesterday. Got 6k points. Perks would not have saved me.
I don't think you necessarily need "anti" tunnel, but if you make it very, very hard to get value from, people will stop. Make DS basekit or something. Bring in Elusive. Give people super haste off hook. Just make it a waste of the killers time and they'll naturally stop.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015759#Comment_4015759
I've been playing it because stomping pumpkins gives a little bit of extra blood points plus I have dowsing rods to burn. I guess I'm also waiting for that magic match where a killer doesn't play like their life depended on it. Other than that I'm just interacting with things as if it were a normal match. Completely ignoring event mechanics seems to give better results and it's not like are themselves inherently fun or novel.
That said, the majority of matches I've been in have either been complete curb stomps by the killer or I end up dying anyway because I tend to do stupid things like try and drag the killer away from people on gens even if I know my only other option is a dead zone.
Yeah, I don't know why I'm playing this event anymore. Hell, I don't know why I'm playing this game anymore. lol. I suppose killer queues aren't terrible right now - I could just hop on there and ignore the irony of me taking my frustrations out on new groups of survivors because I just want to win a few matches and killer is the only way to reliably do that.
I played one survivor match, got tunneled, and we switched back to normal mode. Maybe I'll go in solo to have a look at the void as a survivor and just be ready to die. Too bad the killer knows I'm there immediately and will just down me while I'm staring at the sky.
As killer, I've been playing normal, sadly. I don't have time to go into the Void to make these pointless Haunts. I smash a few pumpkins at end game while I wait for everyone to fly up into he sky. It's a sad state of affairs.
Honestly, don't play killer in this. I feel like a villain but I'm also tasting that winning addiction these 80%+ KR people have and I don't like the feeling at all, yet I'm struggling to stop. Turn back before it's too late. I'm kinda hoping a meme team will approach me and bust out instruments and I will calm the hell down. But for now, too many sweaty teams are making me sweat too. The whole event is just overly sweaty.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015767#Comment_4015767
Is this fair? Many people, if not most, don't have access to the ptb at all. Lots have expressed their unhappiness about that.
Talking about is this fair/not is shifting from what they are actually talking about. I don’t see that consoles players can’t play the PTB fair. But it’s not an excuse to behave like I mentioned above
and doesn't represent regular players—long-winded commentary on a game
Just because they may have different lobbies? Why they can’t represent regular players? Just because your lobbies are different, it doesn’t cancel the fact that many other regular players experience absolutely the same content creators are talking about. You know, this same content creators have to play with other 4 players in match usually, and 90% of them are common, regular players.
SpookyLoops and his video clearly represents chill and casual part of gamers. He is doing some hard challenges, but his lobbies lack of try harding. He is one of the most popular creator. He is highly appreciated in community. So… why he doesn’t represent regular playerbase?Otz no longer a sweaty player and do more some kind of research, support pretty casual view point on the game. And after so many years, image around him is controversial - people aren’t agreeing with all of his claims. Not anymore.
Hens is 50/50 player who belongs to some kind of competitive area, but he provides ton of footages to support some of his views, and validates his opinion with actual games.
OhTofu is may belonging to comp, but listening many podcasts, it’s pretty clear he is more into entertainment rather competitive now.
How many… actually popular content creators we have who belongs to actual comp/ try hard pub area? Like are you really sure people put some Knight Light as religion? Gamma, Tru3? Their channels, as well as opinion, are pretty niche and you aren’t going to see a lot of people putting them as representatives. Even if they bring their footages as an example, it doesn’t mean they validate every of their opinion. Moreover, such players are highly aware with difference between pub and comp, as well as their audience.
If people blindly claiming everything that X creator is telling is truth and it’s massively common here — it’s their personal issue. I, honestly, haven’t seen it on this forum or some medias. Again. It just looks like you are trying to defend your position just because people use some content creators you personally dislike as example. But… if these creators became popular, it means their content feels relatable to people or they appreciate this. So… do you like it or not, position of such people actually would likely to correlate with position of regular players and that’s why these players using their words in attempts to reinforce their sentiment. It’s not your position more likely. But maybe, you just aren’t actually belonging to “that” part of regular players, yet can’t even accept such concept.
People create their own idols, based on their own needs and interests. If these people didn't reflect the reality of the game, they wouldn't be trivial to watch. If these people wasn’t demonstrating something majority asking for, they would get much less attention and appreciation.So do you see the conflict? Again, you still attempting to appellate to some imaginable regular player base. And you highly defensive towards everything you find regular playbase sentiment and more likely highly neglectible/ aggressive to what doesn’t suit to your personal image of this regular playerbase. So… are u sure you aren’t trying to reinforce your opinion with “I am majority then I am right”? Maybe nor you, nor me should appealing to this principle at all then, hmm?
Just because they may have different lobbies?
No, because they have different agendas. You cannot tell me people making money off this are going to have an unbiased take and not try to use their audience to push it through. That's just people.
It just looks like you are trying to defend your position
Which position is that? That people should think for themselves?
people use some content creators you personally dislike as example
I cannot stress this enough: I do not watch content creators. I don't even know who these people you're listing are. I'm not young. When I was, we just played games. We didn't watch other people do so while they blathered on about it. The idea is nonsense to me and I've seen the concept harm gaming over the past decade.
So… do you like it or not, position of such people actually would likely to correlate with position of regular players and that’s why these players using their words in attempts to reinforce their sentiment. It’s not your position more likely
Is it not my position? Who knows? It's pretty unlikely I'll find out because I'm not going to watch a video. Type your thoughts.
So… are u sure you aren’t trying to reinforce your opinion with “I am majority then I am right”?
I play this game everyday. Sometimes I have more than 500 matches a month. I have a relaxed opinon, but I am in no way the majority. I have a fair amount of friends though, and they are less intense than me. And one by one, they're drifting off to other games. And more and more, I'm playing killer alone instead of survivor with friends because my causal friends are unhappy and are leaving the game.
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As a killer who uses Lightborn like it's basekit I do agree with this. It's an overturned perk and makes challenges in the tome hard as well. I'm stuck on a few survivor ones myself because I refuse to even try. I've whacked too many survivors trying to blind me. Having the blinding effect but not making you drop a person, just messing up you ability to get to the hook in time, would be acceptable. It would also allow challenges to get done.
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@UnicornMedal said:
The crazy thing is that we might actually believe this is just a bug or confirmation bias if they weren't constantly changing things in the background without telling us.
Maybe they did it to gather data on some of the more slanted maps with the new pallets? That would make some sense. It does seem to be maps that lean towards one side or the other.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015747#Comment_4015747
I don't think most of us are tryng to say our opinions are majority. I have no idea what the majority is. I've seen a lot of different views all over the internet
Reading this thread doesn't give an impression people arguing for their own opinion, rather than pushing some majority demand here, IMO. Just looking at post above and read “general opinion”, “just imagine if all players”, “those people weren't agree to anything”. People literally speaking for others. I also can do it sometimes, but at least like… not trying to build an entire opinion around this?
My problem is that all you need is a few popular streamers to whip their unthinking zombies into a frenzy and cause an outrage big enough to skew thing in what might not be a truly representational direction
And well here I already see that “We don't pretend we are majority”. Here we are. Shaming people for listening some content creators or using their videos as argument just because their opinion correlates with their own, and some videos just works better as representation of their opinion. And… why? If I showed some Otz/Hens/Tru3 video to provide argument to specific point, dows it mean I support them in everything? Hell nuh, because at least these peopleI mentioned here actually have different positions in general. And absolute same with others people…
I don't share position that you blindly should listen some specific content creator. Yet I don't share position that everyone who trying to use voice of person who built an entire career around this game are brainwashed zombies. It's just contradict your words - where you say that people here are not trying to pull out some general mass as a single opinion, but at the same time yourself trying to belittle these people's opinionscalling them crying killers/survivors or brainwashed zombies. That is straightforward being rude and emotional, it's better not to try to deny it. We all are emotional, the difference are you trying to deny how much it influences on your opinion and do it makes it generally valid.
If you're not playing the ptb, you might be watching it, and you're almost certainly getting someone's commentary on top of the video. And those people have a monetary stake in the game and might just be biased in the direction of their paychecks, not in the best interest of the game and its playerbase.
The exact same thing is happening to half the people here who shamed others. You know, it only took me a couple of private messaging with some people here to see that the people who blindly support the PTB concept weren't just listening to some other people's feedback; they hadn't even tested it themselves (just like they aren't really active players). They're still trying to argue with people who actually played it, or even fight facts they can't refute, relying on hypothetical speech, yet shutting others positions because omg, they took into account opinion of people who actually played it. So who is right here? Barely someone. For me looking at Hens playtest in custom + playing PTB myself purely as survivor, trying to find the match with killer who shares my skill was enough to build my own position. I would be even more honest - I despise concepts of “anti” from the start, because believe if something common happening in this game over and over because people want to do this and counterplay actually exist from other side, you have to finally accept and build a gameplay around it, rather than building artificial walls that limits the game to even more linear gameplay. People can boo me for this, and I don't care, because still haven’t heard actual argument why my opinion is irrelevant beside some “but majority thinking/playing other way”
So again, not directly for you, but for everyone who is reading this — before you talk about some brainwashed people, or biased, or toxic, or tribalistic one, look at yourself. Many people on this forum genuinely lack self-awareness, but of course, whoever I am here to talk about this is, indeed. I am a pretty random person from this forum.
Like… At least don't try to claim that position objectively apply to the majority or, conversely, that something niche, and therefore innovative, and demands absolute acceptance. I don't deny that I have personal sentiments, but I try to back them up with my own play, real matches, and the objective opinions of people who have, you know, invested a lot of their time in this game so they have decent takes because they simply know game better. Because my own opinion is lack of validity sometimes. Yet I don’t put specific opinion here as a religion. And I sincerely don't understand why it's so difficult for other people to do exactly the same. Because I’m pretty damn average person here and pretty sure not the only one who thinking in such way.
It's fine to agree with someone. But there are people here who can't seem to write out an opinion or make an argument of their own without posting a video. A video isn't a good way to say things. I'm not going to watch someone whose job it is to play—and doesn't represent regular players—long-winded commentary on a game. Just the patch notes and discussing scenarios and exploits with other regular people was enough to gather a base opinion for me. I watched a few video on mute. What I saw was mostly extreme exploits of the system. I imagine if they released the basekit BT nowadays you'd see an uproar about body blocking because of it.
You don't think many people hear the opinion of someone they like and listen to all the time and form it into their own opinon? Maybe without even realizing they're doing so?
; they hadn't even tested it themselves (just like they aren't really active players)
Is this fair? Many people, if not most, don't have access to the ptb at all. Lots have expressed their unhappiness about that.
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I have no idea why survivors are playing this mode. It needs a bigger bonus. Someone going into the void, especially injured, has been a pretty much guaranteed down for me every time. I've played probably 40-50 killer matches. I recall losing two. Had maybe three ties. Everything else has been a win, almost all 4Ks. A few people have been smart and gone in to distract me then come back out again, but it hasn't done them much good, and it should be more interactive as it's own thing than as a cheap trick.
As much as I'd like to go kick pumpkins and make void crystals and whatnot, I'm not touching this as survivor unless friends want to do Quests.
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If I see Badham one more time as killler I'm uninstalling.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015608#Comment_4015608
Just the hot take… idk…
As person who played PTB myself it’s pretty silly claiming this PTB is representative thing that provides valid feedback. It’s not and never would be, because even in actual game it’s impossible to build valid stats and it seems people playing different games here and there
So both opinion about is PTB showed that proposed changes just needs adjustments/or should be cancelled completely doesn’t have any actual ground beside people’s subjective opinion. You can’t talk about this objective from SUCH perspective. At least well, because on its own devs never showed stats and both you and them just appellate with attempts to build your own facts here, which isn’t contextual true
Both you and people above literally fighting for proving some an ephemeral position, purely because you're trying to convince the other side that your opinion is the majority/valid. Something you both will never actually prove. Because well it’s all attempts to wrap up subjective things to some stats or overall position.
Reviews changes and community feedback showed that the actual majority doesn’t want to see that thing going live in any state. Do people like it here or not, doesn’t matter. People should stop behave like this PTB was completely cancelled, because devs themselves claimed that they will provide next version of this absurdity in next PTB.
Maybe it’s time to stop trying to use this cheap “I’m right because others think the same” and use actual takes that can be at least somehow used around something you actually can call discussion and not a fight
It’s fine to accept that your position is subjective. It’s fine to use objective facts to reinforce a subjective position. And it's very strange when, day after day, people on this forum try to pretend that the way they play this game is the most common and popular. So their opinion deserves the most attention and others should be shut down. If person can’t talk about objective balancing and keep it in objective frame, then at least this person should stop to behave like their opinion is unanimously true
Both you and people above literally fighting for proving some an ephemeral position, purely because you're trying to convince the other side that your opinion is the majority/valid
I don't think most of us are tryng to say our opinions are majority. I have no idea what the majority is. I've seen a lot of different views all over the internet. I'd venture to guess the majority have no opinion at all. They just log in every couple weeks, play a few rounds, and accept whatever changes come. The average player probably doesn't keep up with all this.
My problem is that all you need is a few popular streamers to whip their unthinking zombies into a frenzy and cause an outrage big enough to skew thing in what might not be a truly representational direction. People in this forum are constantly using content creators takes as their own stance instead of forming one for themselves. If you're not playing the ptb, you might be watching it, and you're almost certainly getting someone's commentary on top of the video. And those people have a monetary stake in the game and might just be biased in the direction of their paychecks, not in the best interest of the game and its playerbase.
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It's whatever your opponent/s decide it's going to be.