cogsturning
cogsturning
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I'm curious to see how the game explains this overly complicated new system to you. I've never seen a game that seems so determined to be unfriendly to new players. It's like it's their goal.
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I'm going to keep doing what I think it correct regardless of how other people act. Stop letting childish people push you towards childish responses.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069142#Comment_4069142
Yeah like I said I think this will effect killers more then survivors cause most of the time Survivors run multipurpose builds while it's usually killers who run specialized build that's why I think it will majorly hurt them more in the long run then survs
Most antigen perks aren't technically modifiers though, and that's the most common build type for killers. So they'll likely be compeltley unaffected and continue to reign supreme, while stacking resi and deja vu is now nerfed. I run full aura currently as killer. Not a modifier, so will also be unaffected.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069201#Comment_4069201
Because Pain Resonance and DMS aren't action speed modifiers. They're outside the scope of what the new system is designed for. Again, if you think the perks are unreasonably strong then it's perfectly fine to ask for them to be revisited again. But asking for them to be arbitrarily incorporated into the new action speed modifier system (when neither of them function as action speed modifiers) just makes no sense.
Especially when there's already a system that deals with Generator regression that would be better suited to addressing your complaints.
That's the problem. The system was intentionally designed this way, to hit very specific things (healing and gen progression) while leaving others (killer's favorite builds) alone. They could have simply classified each perk instead of it being modifiers, so four perks considered antigens would be a bad build. But they didn't want to touch the most annoying, crutchy killer builds, while nerfing the builds killers complain the most about for survivors. No one cares about these niche Haste builds no one is running.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069200#Comment_4069200
In any way you look, it will be horrible
I think making it worldwide and letting people adjust to these changes would be go to, and letting players see the perks and warn which are conflicting, like think about tiny orange or yellow alert or red that says "conflict, reduced perk value".
So then people hot swap profiles and there is more variety.
I just disagree. The reason they gave for canceling the anti-tunnel ptb was that it was too limiting of playstyles. It didn't remove tunneling and slugging, but it greatly reduced their effectiveness. That's exactly what's happening here, the game isn't fully dictating what perks people can bring, but no one is going to bring a half-cooked build. And if it was global, that's 16 perks on the survivor side that need to not conflict. There probably aren't 16 worthwhile perks that won't do that in the whole game.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069193#Comment_4069193
So if these three obnoxious, ever-present perks continue to work fine together
"You can argue that these perks may need more changes, or the Generator kick limit should be stricter"
Why just not give them the stack nerf too? People already cry about the very high kick limit. They won't go for that. They also already cry about the changes some anti-gen perks have already recieved, even if the forum was strangley quiet about the recent buffs to Pop and Ruin. If resi and deja vu get a stack nerf, so should pain res and dms.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069192#Comment_4069192
Yeah it would lead to conflict but this is like a population issue, it leads down to the core problem which is going to be people prefer playing MP Squad games with friends to avoid.
Also im pretty sure the devs will eventually either way we like it or not an ability for soloq survivors to see each other perks, so sadly we will get lobby dodgers, people who do it nowadays run clients that are illegal to dodge lobbies
They could put in a time penalty for dodging, which other games do, but forcing an already disgruntled playerbase into matches isn’t going to go well. If every aspect of survivor gets heaily restricted while still being the side that's meant to lose more, I fail to see the roles appeal.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069130#Comment_4069130
They said things such as killer ad ons and items don't contribute to diminishing returns tho.
That's interesting, since the most obvious source of gen repair sites is toolboxes.
Oh just wait, the nerf is coming.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068894#Comment_4068894
This is disingenuous because all of these perks have been changed multiple times, and regression also has its own diminishing returns-esque system in the form of the Generator kick limit.
You can argue that these perks may need more changes, or the Generator kick limit should be stricter, but using these as an example to oppose sensible changes that prevent bottlenecking, futureproof perk designs, and mitigate extreme scenarios on both sides doesn't make sense.
So if these three obnoxious, ever-present perks continue to work fine together, but basically every dedicated survivor build is nuked, that's fine? Because it's not survivors that need the shake up. I already see a lot of variety in survivor builds. Killers are the ones clutching the same 6 or so boring anti-gen perks almost every match in a death grip. Just because they've had changes doesn't mean they should be exempt.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069179#Comment_4069179
There have been talks also that seeing perks in pre lobby to fellow other survs in lobby will be a thing, we are one step closer to that and i think with this diminishing system in place along side visible perks to one another will be great, and it will show who wants to play as a team and who wants to sabotage their own team by being selfish
I forgot who announced it was it mandy or someone else from the team that MMR system change is coming and the perks will be visible to the survivors around late 2026 or early 2027
We've already been having a lot of talk about the problems with that. Dodging will increase, so will pregame chat conflicts. Only really specific perks are problematic, like Left Behind, but people will dodge many things based on assumptions. I would too. I'm tired of bad matches.
They will find a way to coordinate around it. It's only affecting modifiers, so niche builds and synergies are gonna pop up. Being able to have only one healing perk that works properly on a whole team is crazy unfair though. Global perk nerfs by team would probably make me quit the survivor side of this game. I'm hanging on by a thread as it is. As killer, I won't have to balance my loadout around three strangers every match. As survivor, basically every viable type of perk is nerfed if it factors in everyone.
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@Coffee2Go said:
Perhaps it will turn out well,
I remember last year i spoke about a system that is similar to this for both killer and survivor, my concern is that this wont work againts a proper premade team that spreads out perks per player.
Unless they make it so this applies across entire team not per player or both per player and per survivor team side and killer then it should in theory prevent both killer and survivor perk stacking for gen rush / gen slowdown / gen snowball in general or heal rush.
Either way... i dont come on forums as much anymore unless its something major.
Making it work team wide would be awful for soloq. There is already more harm for them with this change than SWF, who will just cordinate their builds around this.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068582#Comment_4068582
Yh i noticed they were adding very specific counter aura read perks. Tbh I'm not too fussed about countering bbq. I can already counterplay that one with lockers.
I recommend SP too. I've been using it since the rework and it's been stellar. Not just blocking aura read without hopping off your gen endlessly, but also making you free to pre run or go towards the hook to unhook without scratch marks, blood pools, or pain noises. It gives you a lot of liberty of movement throughout the match.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069045#Comment_4069045
With all honesty, survivors can also forfeit when the rest of the survivors are bots. On that case they could also normally play.
I just had a match where all three of my teammates DCed early in the match with 4 gens up. I ratted for hatch while the bots got picked off for a whole match worth of time. Meanwhile, killers can still very quickly turn an L into a W in end game. It's not really the same experience, or the same potential time waste.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069125#Comment_4069125
From watching the stream it would include gen perks.
They said things such as killer ad ons and items don't contribute to diminishing returns tho.Ah I thought the items would be affected. That's good they aren't.
@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069125#Comment_4069125
Wouldn't perks like Thanathaphobia be effected as well? either or the repair speed will still effect the killer said more then the survivor side since they're on the Fast Track hype currently which is Gen max progress removal? Idk how you classify that.
You'd have to consider what Thano would conflict with, and how. It's not regress, it's slow down. It's kinda confusing what will negate what. I've never done the ptbs but I might this time just to fully understand.
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Prety sure epair speed means survivors. Like resi and deja vu will conflict.
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It's an overcomplicated idea that's going to limit builds. We're gonna see the same meta perks that don't conflict with one another over and over. This will be the opposite of a shake up.
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Mandy has said MMR changes are still ongoing.
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Oi, why do all my most used killers cause people problems? Doctor, Dredge, Plague, Clown, and now Henry too. If this is an issue they should allow you to change the color. That's an easy fix.
Maybe turning down the gamma would help, or your screns brightness, when you get a Henry?
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069040#Comment_4069040
I can certainly agree on matchmaking being an issue. I'd probably take an extra couple minutes queue time just to ease some of the issues that causes. The idealist in me will still push for more lobby info, although definitely never which killer nor seeing the opposing team's perks in any way. I do think ultimately this will make killer harder on average, but will reduce some of the luck involved in how the game is set up. I probably shouldn't play DBD if I prefer minimal RNG in online PvP, lmao.
Chat being PC only would impact me, so I suppose I gotta remember what position I'm speculating from.I don't know if killer will be affected much. This feels like a half-solution. The other half is the chat wheel. It's all well and good I can see someone has StB and Babysitter, but if I'm on the opposite end of the map and they are still sitting on their gen, it'd be nice if they could say "going for unhook" or if a survivor with Deliverance could say "don't unhook me" so we can sit on our gens without running halfway there and then thinking to check perks.
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@Rogue11 said:
Meanwhile, Pain Res, DMS, Grim Embrace remains completely unaffected.
Well yeah, this is to stop gen and healing builds on survivors. Let's be fr.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069011#Comment_4069011
Yes, you were one forum users I had in mind, but what you say here, respect. Good to know you are locked in once you are in game, but I still think that many players will not be.
I still think those will be the same ones that are already a problem. The amount of DCs I've had in my killer matches lately has been absurd. I had to give someone hatch just the other day because three people DCed a minute in. A couple days before that I had what I think was my first four-person DC. And I was spreading hooks on the worst possible map for my killer, so I was pretty dumbfounded by the whole thing. These people will be the same ones DCing or griefing over perks. I don't know the fix for terminal misalignment but it can't hold everything back. I'm on the fence about these changes but something in this game has got to give.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069022#Comment_4069022
I respect the honesty!
You are right. If a perk preview is only ingame, then it won't change your behaviour at all. What's interesting is in-lobby preview would be another non-voip gap-closer, which it feels like most people are all for. But you state the downside of this and the source of it, people with your mentality regarding dodging.
I suppose it could also lead to a lot of lobbies being held hostage by people complaining about perk choice, demanding certain perks etc. It's not all upsides, but personally I see it as a worthwhile tradeoff.Honestly I wouldn't dodge so much if I felt the matching was fair. Yesterday I had a survivor in my killer lobby with 9k hours, and another with 400. That was just absurd. I've gotten to where I'm so paranoid I'm checking momo's stream when I'm in lobby to make sure I'm not fed to him again. The matchmaking is so random that I have to police it myself.
The only way to make perks visible in lobby would be to have a dodging penalty timer, like TCM. And the only way they should ever do that is with better matchmaking. So there's a chain of new problems with any change. What they're doing is the logical first step though.
Chat is only available to PC users. If anything, console players will bare the brunt of pregame perk visibility hostilities.
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The absolute last thing I'm concerned about in this game is forced friendship between enemies.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Its funny that good survivor groups are apparantly so rare theyre an gigantic outlier and shouldnt be considered that much for balance. Meanwhile people cant stop citing that 1 guy as reason to nerf blight.
Which survivor teams have a 2k streak?
@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068913#Comment_4068913
Im sure the previous 7968 survivors were all bad.
Can confirm though, I was bad.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069011#Comment_4069011
Meant in good faith: would you dodge your own build?
Idk actually. Maybe? But again, I'm a serial dodger, and that's exactly why they aren't showing you in the lobby. And I'm staunchly anti-DC and very team-minded. So again, once I'm in, I'm in.
Stealth builds don't worry me so much though. Distortion never really concerned me. I use my build to waste killers' time. They're busy looking for me at the tile and I'm already gone. If anything, I'd adjust a non-stealth build to a stealth one if I saw teammates in lobby running them. One of the most devastaitng losses of my dbd life was to a team running a mix of Lucky Break, Iron Will, Distortion, Shadow Step and some others, against my full aura build. I got like two hooks and just could not track them, and I'd love to try it myself with a team without actually gathering friends together (cause no one wants to play this game anymore.) Solos being able to make builds around each other would be great, better than this, but the lobby timer would have to be extended.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068996#Comment_4068996
Likely most players won't be jerks, but I have seen many (no names) on these forums who have basically said they would dodge if they were able to see someone brought something like Fast Track… so show them in game? They're willing to lobby dodge, it's not much of a strech they are going to treat that other player as less important than the others that brought "proper meta" perks.
Was that me that said that? Pretty sure it was. Dodging is my dbd sin. I'll dodge for anything. And yeah, I'd dodge a meme or totem or hatch build in lobby 100% if I could, just like I'd dodge someone with 200 hours. I'm tired of losing because of goofy teammates. But once I'm in a match, I'm locked in. No DCing, no AFKing, no griefing. Most people will act fine. The ones who won't, already weren't. We stand to benefit more than hurt from this.
I currently run what would likely be considered a rat build. Self-Preservation, Iron Will, Lucky Break, hatch at main, and a key. But it's pretty obvious in match that I'm not a rat. The key gives me team aura read and the ability to let my team rummage chests. Hatch at main is a backup, and I rarely need the key for that because killers go to shack when they see the secret offering. And I never get griefed inexplicably, because I show that I'm active and a team player. Most people will continue to judge on that criteria.
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068993#Comment_4068993
Basically here's how it is.
SWFs get that info.
SoloQ doesn't.
SoloQ currently either has potential anti-synergy by not knowing what other players are going for, or have to do all the keeping track you're talking about, while relying on guesswork and in-game observations.
In general, this won't impact your game at all. If you're worried about people getting mad that you didn't let them use their perks optimally, turn off chat.The difference is SWF can coordinate in advance. You won't know this until your in-game. Personally, I think this will make little difference to anything for most games. And if I think I'm getting griefed for my build, I guess iI'll change it. We're probably all going to be changing our builds to the what the new meta will be with this diminishing stuff, which I find way more concerning than additional info.
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@Mushwin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068996#Comment_4068996
yes but even knowing that? You get players that well, are twats…..even if you know what can you remember what team mate does and so? so its like trying to remember all 12 perks and who has what and who is going to do stuff while a skill check, event and a chase is a happening…..
You don't have to remember. Just open it and look. If you aren't able to at the moment, don't. We are overthinking this.
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@Mushwin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068972#Comment_4068972
really? so while trying to do gens, not be chased by the killer, trying to do an event they are gonna try to keep track on every other team mate perk? really? lol……no……just no……it isn't a game where we need such…….and apparantly there is no option, I havent seen anyone asking for this personally………but hey, why not have alerts instead? like someone with a particular perk that can unhook dodge, flah light, why not it be lile on screen like a this persons perk has activated.
@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068972#Comment_4068972
Yes it will, because if I bring perks that a player doesn't like, they can sandbag me and/or leave me to die on hook. The presence of that info DOES hurt me, even if I don't look at them.
I have mixed feelings about this, but we don't know what people will do with the info yet. I'd guess the average player won't even be looking at it. I'll probably be reviewing it when I'm on hook or before unhooking someone.
People want more info for solo. Well, here it is. When I'm spectating, I tell my friends what perks the randoms have. The info can be very useful. Knowing if someone has Deliverance or Adrenaline is big.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068931#Comment_4068931
But how do you determine if a killer is overperforming? In the recent stats we got, blight was not in top 5 kill rates in either bracket.
The stats they give us exclude matches with DCs. There's no way to know who the actual top 5 are with that limit in place.
But Ghoul was also the only one with both a high pick rate and a high kill rate. That's very telling.
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@hermitkermit said:
Friendly reminder that things go to PTB for reason! Dont worry everyone, we can see how it is and then relay the info, and they will make changes accordingly. It’s not a confirmed permanent change or anything.
You're not allowed to be reasonable. We are in overreacting mode.
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Tbf, people have been asking to see teammate perks for awhile. BHVR is responding to requests. The problem will be how people utilize the info. Will they correctly recognize that they shouldn't unhook someone on two hooks against a tunneling killer if a teammate has StB or Babysitter? Will they grief someone immediately for meme or rat perks? Will newer or lower-skill players be able to use the info at all?
But if you dont like it, don't look at them. The presence of the info won't hurt you.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I'm cautious about the unknown because in the past we've nerfed his only useful addons and made his least interesting addon partially basekit.
springtrap is the most fun killer to face so I hope that doesn't change. I love the cameras a lot I really feel like playing fnaf when I verse animatronic.
Yeah I hope they don't make Springtrap unbearable. He is one of the few killers I consistently enjoy playing against. I'm always worried they'll make a killer I either play or like playing against hated.
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I'm not sure how much this matters. It's an effort to bridge soloq and SWF, who scope out and call out the killer immediately anyway. Everyone knows it's GF 30s into the match in a SWF on comms.
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@Mandy said:
Ghoul is not in a position right now where he's overperforming - we've also made adjustments and bug fixes to a few things, we don't feel he's in the position where a hard nerf is warranted at this time, the revault is now even easier to do, so it should make more counterplay against the Ghoul.
But how many people DC in matches against Ghoul compared to most killers? How many AFK? And does opponent satisfaction seem high in regards to this killer? How people feel is more important than numbers if something generates this much discontent. A killer with this much mobility shouldn't be so easy to use.
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I don't like this. The whole reason they gave for canceling anti-tunnel etc was that it dictated people's actions too much. This is doing the same thing. It doesn't remove your ability to stack but it drastically reduces the value of doing so, just like the anti-tunnel ptb, enough so that people will mostly stop having dedicated builds. I currently see a lot of different dedicated builds on survivors (killers, not so much. It's basicaly one flavor.). That'll reduce drastically now. People are going to figure out the handful of meta perks that work well together and we're going to have an even more limited meta than we have now.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Stop with the 4.4, its outdated by todays game speed.
Outdated, yet the most recent killer is 4.4 and was in the highest kill rates in upper MMR in the recent stats. A killer who hurls himself across the map in seconds can handle being 4.4.
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Wesker, I'd like a third dash for both mobility and a less punishing miss, and for him to make a quicker recovery after dashing. His mobility is kinda crap and I've barely touched him in six months in favor of more enjoyable killers. The teenagers with knives and the alcoholic clown shouldn't be faster than the superhuman.
Dredge, I'd like to see better locker spawn (not really a buff, just QoL) and maybe a removal of locks on lockers. Springtrap can go through doors, unknown can strategically place clones, Sadako can spam teleport to TVs with better RNG not just to move around, but to get basically free kills against less experiemced players, yet Dredge has a cooldown, bad RNG, and the locks. I'd also like an add-on pass. He has only three I ever use. He's rough against skilled players who know the counters and aren't afraid of Nightfall.
I used to play Doctor. Idk what I'd want for him tbh. He's very reliant on cheesy skill check builds for most players.
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Why is everyone using hex builds? I get Ruin and myabe Thrill of the Hunt but so often they use 4 Hexes…Why?
I've mostly been playing regular mode, but I've been trying the cheese Ruin build (Ruin, Undying, Thrill, DMS) and I've won all but one of my killer matches. Most have been 4ks at 4 or 5 gens, and the whole build is basically just Ruin. I really don't understand why they allowed Ruin and DMS in the mode. Pretty much every event is killer-sided at this point.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068563#Comment_4068563
It is easy to do but its not healthy design.
If someone is not having fun in the game and just leaves they will get hit with a penalty next time they play even when they where the adult and left the game and went and played something else for a few days (lets say to go play civ 5 as devs have suggested in the past) They will still have to serve their penalty
Compare to people who just dc and continue to play. they just dc up until there penalties get to high then they start to just go next. having to click ready does not effect them at all they cant even spectate to mitigate the penalty time anymore
needing to click ready only punishes people who it shouldn't.Sure you should take time away from the game if you're in a bad headspace, but maybe when the match is over. If you were that mad to DC once, you probably should have left before the second match even started. That would be the "adult" choice.
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Ah, so only survivor is easy? Can you show me your 100 game winstreak?
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Hot take, Ghoul was never strong to begin with.
The problem is that Ghoul is very good even in very bad hands. The other killers you mentioned take at least a little bit of skill.
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Killers BM too. This isn't a one-sided issue, where the killer is the victim made into a monster by a girl with blue hair doing rapid squats. If survivors get hard tunneled out of a ton of matches, get humped, get brought to hatch and moried in front of it, they might become bitter and nasty, and weaker players are really the only ones they get a chance to feel powerful against, with the nature of the role. Toxicity is a virus, but only for certain personality types. The daily BMing I get in this game has yet to change me. Adults recognize that all of their opponents are different people.
People who BM likely do it in both roles anyway. "Survivor" and "killer" aren't cultural groups with their own customs, their just two sides of a game, and if people play both, they're going to be the same person in either role. The tbagging survivors are probably the humping killers too.
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@Donkeybqlls said:
I took a break just before this killer was released, started again when 2vs8 got active (for reference, I know she wasn't in 2vs8). So I know of the existence of this killer, but even in all the matches I played since, I've never encountered this killer. So quite surprised to see she's apparently actively used. Maybe it's my region idk.
Come to think of it also saw only 1 dogmaster but a billion Weskers.
I play about 400 matches a month, a third to half of which would be survivor, and have had maybe 20 Krasues since her release. She's become almost like Twins in her rarity. About as fun to play against too.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068141#Comment_4068141
Perhaps if matchmaking did its job properly you wouldn't need to do this. People are complaining about dodging but are ignoring the REASONS for dodging. Dodging is a symptom not the cause.
I don't forsee truly proper matchmaking happening. There simply aren't enough people of the same caliber on the same servers at any given time. Pretty sure that's why we already see regular players being fed to winstreakers. If they narrow the brackets and tighten the matching, those people will be waiting forever, and God forbid their content or ego feasting is interrupted.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068354#Comment_4068354
Imagine that we would have working anti-tunnel system if killers didn't whine like they did.
Fairness doesn't make for good content.
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People are just mad when they lose. That's it.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068461#Comment_4068461
Certainly, and these are all valid concerns but don't change the shape of the problem we're looking at. A skill check requiring a great is solid, but veteran players regularly nail great checks enough that I don't think it's a meaningful hinderance. This just means high-end players will be more likely to get the benefit from this perk than casual players, which is also questionable in design.
As for their being seven gens, you are absolutely right I am only counting the five. But I'm also not counting for sabo hooks, flashlight saves, etc in the killers 'Effort output.' There are too many variables to account for on both sides and come to an objective reality. You are absolutely correct there. All we can do is model a scenario and go from there.
To dismiss data out of hand because it is not perfect is not sensible either. Perfect is the enemy of good.
If I adjusted accordingly with some rough out of head math to factor 7 gens instead of 5, that would put us somewhere around a 1/10 ratio or so instead of 1/8, with Fast Track rewarding the survivor for 10% of the killers total efforts. That doesn't seem like it steps out of the realm of being problematic at all, to me. 10% return for your oppositions efforts is still a great deal.
I do however agree the example is not perfect: I am not aiming for perfect. I'm just trying to reduce the problem to a mathematical one, as there's enough emotional bickering already. 'I feel like X' doesn't seem particularly productive argument wise, so I want to lean on numbers conversationally and find what number would people be happy with.
If Fast Track was nerfed to 1/32, for instance, would players be happy with a killer getting 1/32 the survivor effort on a similar perk, etc etc. Or even a perk that returns a benefit for each instance of the perk on the survivors given the asymetrical nature of it all. It's difficult to quantify but not so far out of reality that it's a lost cause.Mathematical possibilities and real life occurrences are different though. BHVR has the proper data. Otherwise, all we have is our own experiences, and I've been desperately seeking real-world value in this perk. Every time I've used it it's been essentially useless. Nothing about the outcome of the match changed, and I ended every match with leftover tokens. Every killer match I lose miserably, I scan the scoreboard and it's never there. In fact, those matches usually have little or no gen progression perks. Good players use chase extenders. The people running FT are almost always on the bottom of the scoreboard, and often have Stake Out and Hyperfocus as well. This is mostly a hype-based desperation grab by solo players to try to be useful. And I just don't see it delivering for them in my matches against them, or delivering for me in my own.
Though I agree, to some extent, about hitting greats, it isn't just about veterans vs new players. I have thousands of hours and still miss them, but I'm on console/controller, along with probably half or more of the players, and we have input lag to deal with.
If "unhealthy" means that killers will tunnel more, I just don't believe that. You can't be sure when this perk is in play, or who is using it. Anyone who blames the perk for their actions was already tunneling. It's toolboxes, it's healing builds, it's flashlights, it's sabos, it's healing under hook. FT is just this week's excuse. If "unhealthy" means unfair, well, that's a whole topic, cause this game isn't fair.
My problem with this conversation is how hypocritical, selective, and hyperbolic it's been when the perk 1) is heavily RNG dependent and situational 2) already did what it currently does (rewards survivors for killers doing their objective) yet we're now suddenly mad about it, and 3) actually sucks. Meanwhile, Corrupt, Lethal, and Deadlock are regularly used by killers and are completely free for the killer. Deadlock also activates from survivors compelling an objective, and not just stops a random player's progress, but puts them on the killer's radar, solely because another survivor was successful at something.
I agree with you about emotion though. Though I think some things in this game are about emotion and should be observed through that lense, this isn't one of them. Hypothetical numbers aren't super useful either though. The perk's practical performance is either overtuned or it isn't, and BHVR is the only one that knows.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068458#Comment_4068458
There's also the issue of even getting a skill check, then hitting the great
I forgot about this, but yeah. An unexpected effect was me with full tokens, hopping on the last gen at about 70% with someone, and we finished the gen without me getting a single skill check. Not me missing the great, the check never even appeared. So it's super RNG, even when it could give value.
Yeah same. There were matches where I was begging the game for a skill check and ended up just finishing the gen normally. Every match I've played with this perk I've had tokens left when I either died or the gens got done. Very unsatisfying honestly.
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@NeverSolus said:
I'm not sure I understand a prevailing sentiment I'm seeing displayed here. On one hand, people are saying 'since it requires being hooked its not that strong', but then equally in turn are suggesting tunneling is bad. It's not that bad, it's just being hooked, right?
End of the day this is mission objective versus mission objective, isn't it?
Killer needs to complete 12 mission objectives (hook states) to 4K.
Survivor needs to complete 5 gens to 4E.
Fast track is 6% perm progress per hook. That's 1.2% of total gen time, per hook completed with no counter-play if a single person runs it. This means that each time the killer attains 1 hook (8.3% of their objective), the survivors are rewarded with 1.2% of an objective with zero possible counter-play, per instance of perk in play. This means that if four individuals run fast track, they gain (1.2*3) 3.6% total objective per hook. Outlandish or not, this is possible but not likely.
This means if a full hook spread (the desirable killer behavior) is performed, the killer will have completed 33.2% of their total objective. The survivors will get a 'free' 14.4% completion. They are getting 43% of the end output of the killers effort. If the killer plays the way you want them to play, the survivors in this scenario get nearly half the benefit the killer does for the killer playing as you'd like. This could be fixed largely by making fast-track a one-per-match kind of perk, or have a match wide limit on 'permanent progress' on a generator.
The problem remains however that even with one perk in play, a survivor is gaining 1.2% of an objective for free, for every 8.3% the killer completes. In absolutely no world of logic is getting 1/8th of your oppositions efforts as a benefit sensible, even with one instance of the perk in play. No one would approve a killer getting 1% permanent haste for each generator completed, by example. This would just lead to people 99'ing gens - just as fast track leads to tunneling.
The only counter-play of Fast Track is undesirable behavior. Whether it's a problem now or not is not relevant in the discussion, as we are putting yet another piece on the table to contribute to the potential of a future snowball. We know a boon that offers permanent completion is on the horizon, and BNP already exists. Whether these tools are being used at large or not is not relevant to whether or not the current state of the perk is healthy. Unhealthy is unhealthy.
To the counter point, if we are expected to see this kind of balance philosophy applied in the future, I'd expect to start seeing similar ratios on the killer. That is to say, killers getting perks that allow killers to gain 1/8th the 'total output' of survivors as a benefit towards their total objective. That would equate into a perk that says something along the lines of 'When the fourth generator is completed, assign a hook state to a random survivor in the match.' Let's call this perk 'Rule of 8.'
This would be the equivalent of the killer gaining 8.3% of their objectives, in exchange of the survivors completing 80% of theirs, roughly equal to the 1/8 ratio from fast track.
Rule of 8 will never be instituted. Everyone present knows this perk will not be instituted. Survivors would loathe this perk, and killers who would want it don't deserve to have it. At face value it's awful, and most killers would downplay it the exact same way that survivors downplay Fast Track, but it amounts to same math. And that math is a free hook on 4th gen, in a gen rushing meta. This perk would see use, even if it cannot be stacked the way fast track can, meaning it is still categorically inferior to Fast Track.
So if we see this design philosophy continuing, I'd imagine we're going to see something like the Rule of 8 instituted. It would be balanced, mathematically, fair, and even weaker than Fast Track is. That seems reasonable, doesn't it?
TL-DR; No. No it does not. It's not reasonable and neither is Fast-Track. It sets a very unhealthy precedence for future perks, add-ons, tools, and kits. No one should gain 1/8th of their oppositions efforts just from a single perk selection. It's madness.This isn't quite right though. You're using best case scenario numbers and FT depends on a few things. First, you have to use the tokens before they max out. That can happen fast in a bad match. Second, you need a skill check to generate, and you need to land the great. When I've had tokens with this perk, I often either don't get a skill check, or I miss the great. Sometimes trying to get the great makes me miss entirely and now I've just damaged my gen and had a loud noise event. And third, there are seven gens, not five. If you put the tokens into the wrong gen that never gets finished, they're wasted.