ad19970
ad19970
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@Adam_Francis_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933213#Comment_3933213
I genuinelly feel camping and tunneling seems like an issue because people watch videos from content creators "effortlessly" running killers for multiple gen, and when players attempt themselves they cannot. There have been many anti tunneling buffs including absurd ones like to babysitter and the haste after hit.
Also, the playerbase throws around camping too much. Majority of camping and tunneling complaints arent true complaintsNo people complain about camping and tunneling because they are insanely unfun to go against. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with doing well in chase or not.
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I mean killer have frustrations to deal with, but it's really not like the devs have only catered to survivors the last years. And survivors have frustrations to deal with as well, especially camping and tunneling. Honestly it's just to be expected that some players will only play for a short while and then stop playing, but I fear it will be worse on the survivor side than the killer side.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933152#Comment_3933152
Are fly mage hand or flight of the damned gonna be good enough to have 40s cooldowns with these changes? Clearly not, and his macro skill expression is reduced with lower spell cooldowns because it means you don't have to be as careful/intentional in how you use your spells, whereas with 40s cooldowns youd maintain the average frequency and required skill as a killer with only 1 ability and a 10s cooldown (since vecna has 4 abilities)
I get where you are coming from, but I'd rather have spells on a lesser cooldown that have more counterplay than spells with a higher cooldown that have less counterplay. I think the way they are changing Vecna now will make him more interactive and fun to play as and play against.
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I main Vecna as well, love playing him, but I think if they buff the movement speed and duration of Fly, this nerf is absolutely needed. Otherwise it would be too easy to just fly on top of a survivor, cancel the ability, and get a hit. We'll see by how much they are increasing the cooldown, but if they increase the cooldown duration from 2.5 seconds to let's say 3 seconds, I think that would be completely fine.
Vecna is not in a bad state currently, so him getting a bunch of buffs needs to be counterbalanced in some way.
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@malikdelgaty22 said:
Killer sided like always. I will rejoice the day when everybody who plays survivor leaves this trash game.
I seriously doubt that will happen.
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@lettuchia said:
So much good stuff but more efforts should be put into buffing vecna's spells instead of reducing the cooldowns, it's very disappointing to see his macro skill expression reduced to pander to bad players
Why would they want to buff his spells? I mean they are buffing Fly, and Mage Hand and Flight of the Damned are already strong enough, I see no reason to buff their effectiveness. I also don't see how his macro skill expressions is being reduced with these changes.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931886#Comment_3931886
I know. I'm just beyond frustrated with this particular killer and the people defending him.
I do think the devs will eventually address enraged vaults, which is sorely needed. Maybe they'll even adjust canceling mid leap, but that's unlikely. However one of the most frustrating parts of playing against this killer is his aim assisted hit scan grab and the devs sounded extremely proud when they revealed that, so it's never going to change and that really bothers me.
The enraged vault is actually not that bad anymore. At least against me survivors are often able to make it around the loop again before I can hit them after I vault. But I can see why people would want it nerfed just slightly more. Right now the vault time is 1.5 seconds, 1.7 or 1.8 seconds would probably be the sweet spot.
I fear there is nothing they can do about the hitscan though. I don't think kaneki would work without it.
Just hold on a bit longer, once Springtrap is released Kaneki will probably be played much less. I just hope Springtrap is very fun to go against.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931889#Comment_3931889
solo survivors don't need love i say this as a guy who plays solo the problem is the average survivor including me is terrible at the game and won't focus on gens also swf is a broken part of the game that the devs will never nerf since coms make the majority of perks irrelevant
Disagree heavily. Tunneling and camping are very unhealthy strategies, and are stronger against solo queue than against swf. Solo queue definitely deserves something.
I realise that one of solo queues biggest problems are survivors themselves. But that's not the only problem.
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This is just completely untrue. Killers have gotten many good changes over the years. There is of course the big 6.1.0 update, that buffed killers considerably. And we've seen many individual killers being buffed as well. Not to mention some nice perk buffs. And quite a few maps have been changed to be fairer as well. Hell, we've even got a few maps that are now pretty killer sided.
Yes, some slowdown perks have been nerfed, but that's because they were too oppressive. And some killers were also nerfed, but generally rightfully so. You really going to argue that Kaneki was fine at release? I also don't see how Knight was nerfed, he was just changed to promote more healthy gameplay.
Survivors did get some nice changes as well during the last years, but also some nerfs. And I think right now, considering the state the game is in, solo survivors are the ones that deserve some more love. Which they will hopefully get with the upcoming anti-tunnel and anti-camp changes.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Still insufferable.
Hit scan attacks were a very bad idea, auto aim (the sticky cursor combined with the slightly increased hit detection for survivors) also feels unfair (doubly so if he injures you through a solid object), a free injury is always going to be extremely frustrating to play against and enraged vaults are still practically old scamper.
In short, a completely unfun experience to play against, but who cares about that when the killer is fun to use, right?
Let's please not act like BHVR doesn't care about the survivors fun, they simply released a killer that missed the mark. And honestly I still believe he can be fun for quite a few survivor players with just a couple of more tweaks.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931819#Comment_3931819
I don‘t exactly get what you mean with the increase from 1.5 meters to 1.8 meters, but increasing the cancel time would kill this character.
Lmao that was just a complete brainfart on my end. I meant seconds. Also, I don't think increasing the cancel time slightly would kill this killer at all. He'd still be strong.
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@beerey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931104#Comment_3931104
Thank you so much for the constructive feedback! I'd also consider myself a Vecna main who definitely enjoys playing him A LOT and win about 95% of my games as him.
Nevertheless, I still feel that most of the aspects in his power relies for the most part on survivors lacking knowledge, and that he falls behind more and more as survivors grow in skill. Of course, knowing his counterplay isn't as intuitive as other killers like Unknown and Wesker which makes it so most of the playerbase has yet to properly learn how to play against him and this phenomenon is directly correlated to his inflated killrate.
I'd love to test my Fly suggestions in a real environment because, much like you, I do feel that they go a bit overboard in some areas and that finetuning them to the perfect value through playtesting would be more than welcome.
Although I would certainly comprise on just lowering his cooldowns and an add-on or two to be made basekit for him just like you mentioned.
I mean it's true that many survivors don't always know how to counterplay him very well. On the other hand I have gone against good survivors that did know and generally was still able to do decently.
The more I think about it though, the more I think all these changes together would be pretty busted. Especially since they don't make his counterplay more intuitive. The cooldown reductions plus maybe a small duration buff to fly would be more than enough to compensate for the item buffs. Still, the ideas in theory sound fun, I just think they are too much, and more importantly, unnecessary.
Personally, as I said, I would just be happy if they increased fly's duration to 4.5 seconds and decreased mage hand's blocking pallet duration from 3 to 4 seconds. And them some buffs to his weaker addons, as well as a slight rework to Boots of Speed, which I find to be unhealthy addons at the moment.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931120#Comment_3931120
I said almost as strong as ever. I realise that there have been improvements made against tunneling. But that doesn't change the fact that tunneling and camping are still way too strong for how easy these strategies are.
way too strong? These strategies are dead at high skill levels unless survivors make chains of critical mistakes. If you want to actually have a successful tunneling session you need to have very short first chase and first down + to actually catch unhooked survivor off guard in order to be able to tunnel them (or just have survivors not touch any gens during and after first chase).
Ok, this part here made me a little speechless. I don't know about you, but most people play video games to have fun. And going against tunneling and camping is not fun whatsoever, for pretty much anyone. Are you unironically going to blame newer players for not sticking around and wanting to learn how to counterplay tunneling and camping? You can't be serious right? This is not about the learning curve of DBD, but about having to play against something as unfun as tunneling and camping. Why bother learning to go against camping and tunneling killers if people can just do something actually fun?
"most people play video games to have fun" is a sentence i always hear when it's about "me win=fun; me lose=no fun"
And again, i'll take cs2 as an example, people who just start playing comp and premier are literally greeted by dying constantly, people yelling at them, them being votekicked and...they still decide to play and after couple of hundred, and then thousand hours, results truly show.
If you are willing to just run around the map and play sandbox, goof around with friends in customs.
And keeping accent on "camping/tunneling" unfun is really tiresome, what about newer killers being greeted by people popping 3 gens in the matter of first chase? Why is killer struggling always treated as skill issue, while survivor struggling is treated as game imbalance and suddenly...caring about newer players?
I don't think yall actually care about new players at all, yall care about tools new players would get to counter those strats becoming available to you because you aware you could abuse them much better.
I am not even sure what you are talking about here. All I pointed out is that killer queue times might suffer in the future, because there will be a much greater gain of killer players than survivor players. This is no threat whatsoever, people are allowed to choose what they want to play and what they don't want to play. And as a killer main myself, I don't want to have to suffer through long queue times for that long.
so you think gain of killer players because of one popular licence character necessarily means queues will struggle?
You seem to be trying to blame the players for tunneling being so strong, but that's simply not true. Tunneling and camping are strong strategies even against good survivors. Tunneling and camping will be going nowhere until the devs, as they plan, do something about it. And no, I am not ignoring that tunneling and camping are punished hard, because they aren't. Yes, there are perks that help against tunneling, and can punish it, but as it stands, right now tunneling and camping are still way too good in too many situations.
have you ever watched an actual match against high level teams? I have so many good survivor friends and we would all love to test your "tunneling and camping are strong strategies statement" by playing a no restrictions custom match to simulate pubs and show you how "strong" those strats are.
Next, let's analyze your "good in too many situations" statement:
Tunneling: good only if you manage to get a very quick first down and team goes for a fast unhook OR if whole team doesn't touch any gens during first chase (very rare occasion against good survivors). Too many situations? Where?
Camping: good only if you manage to get a down close to a 3-gen hook with a killer that actually has strong camping potential (Billy, Huntress, Trickster for example). In modern world where good survivors literally know to actually force a down away from 3-gen hook, good luck trying to camp because you are going to end up with 1K at MAX. Too many situations where it is strong? Lol
Also not true. Of course different people find different killers fun and unfun, but there is much more to that than finding the killers unfun just because the survivor players can't win against them. You are just generalising the entire survivor community based on it's worst members.
i mean, the same part of community that regularly complains about these 3 strats hates way too many killers in roster lol.
way too strong? These strategies are dead at high skill levels unless survivors make chains of critical mistakes. If you want to actually have a successful tunneling session you need to have very short first chase and first down + to actually catch unhooked survivor off guard in order to be able to tunnel them (or just have survivors not touch any gens during and after first chase).
I have high doubts that's the case. It only makes sense that eliminating a survivor as fast as possible is pretty strong. Sure, if the killer has a long first chase and the survivor being tunneled continues to stay alive long against the killer, the survivors will win. But that's the case if the killer doesn't tunnel as well. This game isn't in a state anymore though where survivors have to make many mistakes to go down quickly. The killer just has to outplay or outmindgame the survivor a few times and they go down.
"most people play video games to have fun" is a sentence i always hear when it's about "me win=fun; me lose=no fun"
And again, i'll take cs2 as an example, people who just start playing comp and premier are literally greeted by dying constantly, people yelling at them, them being votekicked and...they still decide to play and after couple of hundred, and then thousand hours, results truly show.
If you are willing to just run around the map and play sandbox, goof around with friends in customs.
And keeping accent on "camping/tunneling" unfun is really tiresome, what about newer killers being greeted by people popping 3 gens in the matter of first chase? Why is killer struggling always treated as skill issue, while survivor struggling is treated as game imbalance and suddenly...caring about newer players?
I don't think yall actually care about new players at all, yall care about tools new players would get to counter those strats becoming available to you because you aware you could abuse them much better.
That's simply bullocks. There are enough people that don't have the mindset of win=fun and lose=unfun. Sure, there are some people like that, for both sides, but they aren't the norm. It's clear as day that many people find tunneling and camping unfun not just because they led to lost games. I don't know what to say if you actually believe that.
Tunneling and camping are also definitely less of a skill issue on the survivors side than losing 3 gens after the first chase is a skill issue on the killers side. With that said, gen rush can still be a slight problem and it would be nice if BHVR found some way to alleviate the frustrations that come from it as well. The issue of gen rush just isn't as pressing as the issues of tunneling and camping are.
so you think gain of killer players because of one popular licence character necessarily means queues will struggle?
I think with this chapter being particularly big, and gaining a particular amount of new players, that the queue times for killers could definitely become worse if more killer players than survivor players end up staying with DBD.
have you ever watched an actual match against high level teams? I have so many good survivor friends and we would all love to test your "tunneling and camping are strong strategies statement" by playing a no restrictions custom match to simulate pubs and show you how "strong" those strats are.
Next, let's analyze your "good in too many situations" statement:
Tunneling: good only if you manage to get a very quick first down and team goes for a fast unhook OR if whole team doesn't touch any gens during first chase (very rare occasion against good survivors). Too many situations? Where?
Camping: good only if you manage to get a down close to a 3-gen hook with a killer that actually has strong camping potential (Billy, Huntress, Trickster for example). In modern world where good survivors literally know to actually force a down away from 3-gen hook, good luck trying to camp because you are going to end up with 1K at MAX. Too many situations where it is strong? Lol
Yes I have. I have seen comp games where tunneling, and to an extent also camping, were prevelant. The more important aspect though is that solo queue simply doesn't have the coordination needed most of the time to counter tunneling effectively. What we've got here is a strategy that is far easier to pull off than to counterplay. Which is just bad design.
You also don't need that short of a first chase to get good use out of tunneling. A normal chase can be enough in many cases.
Camping is the same thing. It hurts solo queue more than swf anyways, especially with the anti-camp meter still not shown on the hud.
i mean, the same part of community that regularly complains about these 3 strats hates way too many killers in roster lol.
Dude where do you get those stats from? Lmao. I have serious doubts that's the case.
I am also curious. If camping and tunneling are bad strategies at high mmr anyways, why would you be against nerfing them if it simply helps all solo queue players and lower mmr players have much more fun with the game?
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Personally, the 2 nerfs I would still like to see is have his vault time in enraged mode increased from 1.5 meters to 1.8 meters, and his Kagune Leap cancel cooldown increased from 2 seconds to 2.5 seconds.
I am pretty positive with a 2.5 second cooldown you'd still be able to make these bodyblock plays like the ones you showed and get a hit, but survivors would feel slightly less frustrated and have a slightly better chance at still reaching some tile after Kaneki dashes towards you.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931487#Comment_3931487
Dracula is a bit overpowered due to overloaded kit and a bit too small cooldowns yea, but Blight okay and Nurse needs complete rework? Blight is literally problematic in quite a few aspects (token recharge, tokens not being deducted upon pallet break, fatigue too short, abnormal synergy with Brutal Strength due to these facts) and only thing problematic about Nurse is her synergy with aura reading perks.
I don't quite get what makes Dracula op. Like you say his overloaded kit, but I would argue that all of his abilities are relaitvely balanced. Hellfire is certainly one of the weaker ranged attacks of all killers, and the wolf's dash attack isn't too crazy either. Consider then the fact that he kind of has to alternate between those chase abilities, tanks to the cooldowns, and I find Dracula to be pretty well balanced.
The only nerf he might need in my opinion is a very slight increase of his transfonmation time from bat form into the other two forms. But even that I am not convinced by. I'd rather have strong killers and have more problematic stuff on the killers side nerfed.
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@Langweilig said:
The broken downside should be changed entirely. Broken is a terrible status effect to have. I’d rather see invocations have their own downside depending on their strength.
Weaving spiders makes you lose a hook state like shoulder the burden. After completing it you go from 0 hook stages to 1, from first to second and when you are already hooked twice you don‘t get a downside at all. This would also give it a reason to use it later in game and potentially miss out on some value.
Treacherous crows makes you permanently oblivous.
I think gaining a hook state with Weaving Spiders would still make the perk pretty garbage. I'd rather just have them implement the idea of op, where they gain the broken effect, but only until they are hooked.
Treacherous crows making you oblivious could work however.
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Any concrete reasons as to why? I get that this game still has it's fair share of frustrations but I have been enjoying playing both sides quite a lot lately.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931791#Comment_3931791
I'm not saying I dont have good matches, it's mainly when these two are involved and it's VERY often on my servers, or I'm just having bad luck at the time of which I play.
Yeah I get that. I wouldn't want to verse Ghoul constantly as well. I guess you are a bit unlucky, but Ghoul is probably still a very popular choice as well.
Personally haven't played 2vs8 yet. And probably won't until the end considering all the negative comments regarding Legion and Oni.
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A killer softban would definitely be interesting, but I also fear that it could hurt those that want to play more unpopular killers too much with longer queue times.
I still just wish we'd get more and faster balancing of killers. Honestly Blight and Nurse still being the way they are is quite ridiculous in my opinion.
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I have actually been enjoying solo queue quite a bit the last days. Had a lot of great matches.
But for me the biggest issue is still tunneling and camping. Matches against killers that use these tactics just aren't very fun at all. And I still had some of those the last days as well.
I haven't gone against Ghoul often enough yet to be annoyed by him however. But so far I don't hate going against him, though I also don't love going against him.
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Honestly as killer I have had very few frustrating matches lately, and I have been playing a lot. Losing because of a ridiculous map setup or because of a certain strategy on a map that is uncounterable are definitely the most frustrating parts about DBD, but those luckily happen rarely. I still remember one match on the Game against a sabo squad that made it impossible to hook them, that match was absolute BS.
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@Shinkiro said:
The perks are rubbish and not worth using over ever the shrinking amount of worthwhille killer perks. There's literally nothing in the game to incentivise you to split hooks, because it is objectively bad for you, despite survivors demanding the devs punish killer for not doing so. The whole debate in nonsense, the game needs to be redesigned and rebalanced from the ground up to do this. Even if we got worth while perks to run, you'll always be better off making it a 3v1 ASAP
A lot of killers nowadays can actually keep up quite a bit without tunneling and camping, at least against 99% of survivor teams. Tunneling and camping are just far easier to pull off yet still very strong, which is why some killer players resort to those tactics.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931431#Comment_3931431
This is the sort of Killer design that Pixel Bush termed "dashslop", and it's genuinely ruining DBD - for lower tier Killer Mains, for Survivors, for anyone who likes variety, and for the fun of the game overall. It's not good. It's just not good design. It was fine when it was just Nurse and Blight, but it's gotta stop. It truly has to stop. The game cannot keep just adding more Killers with super strong kits that don't reward skillful play, something has to give. Either these Killers need an actual decent nerf, or the weaker Killer choices need strong buffs, but this can't stay this way.
I fail to see how dash killers are immediately easy to use and overpowered, or how they are ruining the game and are unfun. Wesker is arguably one of the most balanced and fun killers in the game for example, according to the general communities opinion. Dracula has much more to his kit than just a dash ability, and that ability too is hardly op. If anything is too good on Dracula, it's his transformation from bat into wolf or vampire form. Though in my opinion Dracula is also pretty balanced.
Houndmaster I also don't really see a balance problem with now that they nerfed the vault speed, and Vecna was their last killer without a dash ability, which isn't that many killers ago. Kaneki is the killer that went too far with dash abilities, being broken especially on release. But he too can be properly balanced with the right number tweaks.
I do think it would be nice if Springtrap would not have another dash ability, that I would agree with.
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@Jadelysta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931407#Comment_3931407
Hound: The dogs vault speed is annoyingly quick leaving a very little window for counterplay. (Unless it recently was changed)
Dracula: Wolf form hitbox is insanely generous.
Vecna: He's fine now, but at release i hated him due to the mage hand thing. But his skeletons are currently kind of annoying i guess? mainly due to the hitboxes and how crouching doesn't ever seem to work for me.
Ah ok interesting. I enjoy going against Houndmaster and love going against Dracula and vecna which is why I asked. Your problem with Vecna is weird though, crouching in my experience always works. Maybe you just got very unlucky in your matches against him. Also never noticed the hitbox of Wolf being big myself.
And Houndmaster's dog's vault speed was indeed nerfed, it is now much more reasonable.
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@Jadelysta said:
The recent trend for me is how many annoying killer powers can they release back to back to back.
What's so annoying about Houndmaster, Dracula and Vecna?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930485#Comment_3930485
And I am saying: Her lack of a real power, against 4 good survivors, makes that outcome entirely possible. People still can't come to terms with the fact that some teams, you just can't do anything against, at least not with the killer you're playing as. There's no "Oh, if you just play skillfully enough, you can beat them," which is a false message a lot of content creators prop up. No, there's nothing. No amount of detaches, or mindgaming (because many tiles still have no mindgame), or banking on catching up to a survivor after a pallet break before they get to another and another. The top killers in the game can maybe deal with that. The other 95% of the cast can't. And it's not just comp or wannabe comp SWFs who can do this. If 1 survivor knows how to loop, killer could lose the whole game. They'll try to circumvent that outcome by going for the weak link or only chasing when it's a favorable chase. But sometimes there is no weak link. There is no favorable chase.
Given those circumstances, which are very much possible and common, I don't think my initial comment was an exaggeration. You're talking about Pig. Her head traps do nothing for chase, and then she has the dash attack. The dash attack, after all they've done with it, still needs 2 crouch/dash add-ons to be slightly* better than M1/Bloodlusting everything. Preemptively holding forward still trumps it. So if playing a killer who basically can't do anything in 95% of chase situations - getting almost no downs per gen done - is my fault, well then I guess it's my fault. Great logic.
Right, all these content creators are clearly just lying out of their teeth to support some agenda. It couldn't ever be that maybe you just aren't as good as you think you are, and that that's why some content creators say you can beat even good survivors if you are good enough with the killer while you struggle to do so.
And it's definitely not 95% of the killer roster that can't deal with very good survivors.
Of course it's map dependent, there are certain maps where Pig will definitely struggle a lot, but generally 2 downs until 5 gens are popped means you got outplayed as killer multiple times. Which is fine, doesn't immediately mean you are a bad killer, just that you got outmindgamed multiple times. Stuff like that should be able to happen though, otherwise it would indicate that the killer you are using has too little counterplay.
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I mean it depends on what a weapon would do. Of course, if we have some kind of weapon that could eventually kill a killer, adding a new way for survivors to win, I think that would be broken. A weapon to stun the killer for a few seconds? That could maybe work with enough prerequisites, but that's a very dangerous thing to try if you ask me. Especially at the moment where killers play against the clock quite a bit.
A few new items would be welcome though.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
alright i will break this in quite some arguments.
However, tunneling and camping are almost as strong as ever, with little effort required on the killers side. These strategies are very easy to pull off, and strong, which is why quite a few killer players resort to these strategies.
okay how, just how can tunneling and camping be stronger than ever when anti-tunneling and anti-camping tools are also stronger than ever? I just need to understand this logic.
I think this will cause problems in two ways. For one, the potential gain of new, long term players will be less because of these strategies. New survivor players will play some matches, go against a tunneling and camping killer one too many times, and be done with DBD.
there is something called learning curve in games. For example, CS2 has a very steep learning curve, did it lose many players because of that? No, because people who decided to play it clearly understood game has a steep learning curve. Now what about dbd. Dbd is very known by killer role being easier to play at low skill levels and getting more difficult the more you play with current matchmaking until you are stuck at specific level or you decide to improve. Survivor role is kinda difficult at the beginning, but gets easier and easier the more you learn because of understanding how to use beneficial aspects of your role to get advantage. If you leave the game prematurely, you are simply not ready to improve nor you want to.
And this will also lead to the problem of longer killer queue times, possibly for more than just the first 1 or 2 weeks after Springtraps release. Because many of the new killer players will have less reason to not be interested in DBD after they play some matches. Of course, killers also have to deal with certain frustrations every now and then, but none of them are nearly as prevelant as tunneling and camping are at the moment.
this is such an one-sided argument and kind of fearmongering community with a good ol' "if you don't hold my hand i will leave".
I just think it's a shame BHVR wasn't able to address these issues before the FNAF chapter. I do think that once these changes do happen in the second half of the year, it will bring back quite a few survivor players, which is of course a good thing. But it would have been nice if tunneling and camping was already much less of an issue for the new players that are going to come with the FNAF chapter.
if matchmaking existed in this game and tunneling/camping were properly punished by players, those strats wouldn't be nearly as much present at "soft MMR cap" nor would content creators push tunneling and camping as "only" ways to win.
Veteran players can build a better game for newer players, yet they chose what they want to do.
Also, two side notes: I personally think the go next prevention shouldn't happen until these anti-camp and anti-tunnel changes happen as well. Unless the go next prevention can somehow account for not wanting to go against such strategies.
so your suggestion is that giving up shouldn't be punished more until tunneling and camping (which are already punished hard at actually high skill levels) are addressed (they already are, but you are blatantly ignoring it).
The main way to make specific strategy appear less in your matches is to counter it so hard that people understand they can't win by spamming those strats every match.
And second, I can only pray that Springtrap is very fun to go against on the survivor side. If we get another Kaneki situation, good luck even finding killer matches.
honestly, average survivor nowadays finds majority of killer roster unfun to face nowadays simply because "omg, my opponent doesn't have personality (doesn't let me win)" mindset.
okay how, just how can tunneling and camping be stronger than ever when anti-tunneling and anti-camping tools are also stronger than ever? I just need to understand this logic.
I said almost as strong as ever. I realise that there have been improvements made against tunneling. But that doesn't change the fact that tunneling and camping are still way too strong for how easy these strategies are.
there is something called learning curve in games. For example, CS2 has a very steep learning curve, did it lose many players because of that? No, because people who decided to play it clearly understood game has a steep learning curve. Now what about dbd. Dbd is very known by killer role being easier to play at low skill levels and getting more difficult the more you play with current matchmaking until you are stuck at specific level or you decide to improve. Survivor role is kinda difficult at the beginning, but gets easier and easier the more you learn because of understanding how to use beneficial aspects of your role to get advantage. If you leave the game prematurely, you are simply not ready to improve nor you want to.
Ok, this part here made me a little speechless. I don't know about you, but most people play video games to have fun. And going against tunneling and camping is not fun whatsoever, for pretty much anyone. Are you unironically going to blame newer players for not sticking around and wanting to learn how to counterplay tunneling and camping? You can't be serious right? This is not about the learning curve of DBD, but about having to play against something as unfun as tunneling and camping. Why bother learning to go against camping and tunneling killers if people can just do something actually fun?
this is such an one-sided argument and kind of fearmongering community with a good ol' "if you don't hold my hand i will leave".
I am not even sure what you are talking about here. All I pointed out is that killer queue times might suffer in the future, because there will be a much greater gain of killer players than survivor players. This is no threat whatsoever, people are allowed to choose what they want to play and what they don't want to play. And as a killer main myself, I don't want to have to suffer through long queue times for that long.
so your suggestion is that giving up shouldn't be punished more until tunneling and camping (which are already punished hard at actually high skill levels) are addressed (they already are, but you are blatantly ignoring it).
The main way to make specific strategy appear less in your matches is to counter it so hard that people understand they can't win by spamming those strats every match.
You seem to be trying to blame the players for tunneling being so strong, but that's simply not true. Tunneling and camping are strong strategies even against good survivors. Tunneling and camping will be going nowhere until the devs, as they plan, do something about it. And no, I am not ignoring that tunneling and camping are punished hard, because they aren't. Yes, there are perks that help against tunneling, and can punish it, but as it stands, right now tunneling and camping are still way too good in too many situations.
honestly, average survivor nowadays finds majority of killer roster unfun to face nowadays simply because "omg, my opponent doesn't have personality (doesn't let me win)" mindset.
Also not true. Of course different people find different killers fun and unfun, but there is much more to that than finding the killers unfun just because the survivor players can't win against them. You are just generalising the entire survivor community based on it's worst members.
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@Langweilig said:
I think behavior doesn’t have a fix yet and is a bit scarred to do these changes, which are potentially controversial. Hopefully these changes come before December. I hate it when updates get pushed back until the last date.
I really hope they happen before december as well. And BHVR should not be scared of these changes. Survivor experience definitely needs to be improved now. They said it themselves, they can buff killers if these changes impact kill rates too much.
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As a Vecna main I definitely feel the need to comment on these changes.
All in all, I would say these changes are very interesting, and not even necessarily that bad, even though they would be too much in my eyes. They would shake up Vecna and how he is played quite a bit.
But here's the main thing: I think Vecna the way he is now is near perfect. I absolutely love to play him and think he is insanely fun to go against as well. So for me the biggest question would be why change him in such drastic ways at all? I think he is very well balanced the way he is now.
Addressing some of the changes here, I think one problem I see is that you make every spell stronger than currently, while also buffing the corresponding item that counters that spell. But that will just make counterplay against these spells more dependent on the specific items you have. It would still work, these spells would still have counterplay without the corresponding items, but I think the way it's right now is perfectly fine.
Though I do agree that right now there is a power discrepancy between the magic items, the interloper being the best one, the skyguard and the archivist being good and the nightwatch being only meh.
Fly seems overbuffed to me. I think it would be too easy to catch up to a survivor in between tiles, cancel fly right on top of them and then get a hit against them just like that.
I also don't see a reason to change Flight of the Damned like that personally. The same kind of goes for Dispelling Sphere, though those changes seem fairer to me.
I think just reducing the cooldowns like you suggest would be enough to compensate for the magic items buffs. If you also buff the individual power, things could become too much. We can't forget that Vecna already has a 66% kill rate. And yes, killers can't just be balanced around kill rates, but they should at least be considered when balancing a killer as well.
Overall, while these changes look interesting, I think they just seem unnecessary, and would probably also overbuff Vecna a bit. I made a list of changes myself on Vecna, and honestly, there are only two basekit changes I would like to see: Fly's duration should be increased to 4.5 or 5 seconds, and Mage Hand's pallet blocking duration should be decreased from 4 to 3 seconds. And maybe Vecna should gain collision during the post cast cooldown of fly, but I am not certain on that last one yet. Then a few changes to some of his addons and I feel he would be perfect.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931020#Comment_3931020
But it’s exactly what people are saying….
When slugging is frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge deal and should be fixed. But when slugging is frustrating for killers (I.e. survivors are forcing the killer to slug), it’s “not as bad” and doesn’t need to be fixed.
If generator speeds are frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge deal and should be fixed. But when generator speeds are frustrating for killers, they are told “it’s not even real gen rushing”, that it’s a fake problem, and doesn’t need to be fixed.
If tunneling is frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge problem that needs to be fixed, but if killers are frustrated that survivors are weaponizing anti-tunnel stuff, then it’s “not as bad” and doesn’t need to be fixed.
Who exactly are you quoting here? There are many people part of this community with different opinions.
There are definitely frustrations killers have that should be looked into as well, but right now the most pressing issues are tunneling and camping.
Also are we still acting like killers never get their frustrations addressed? That seems quite disingenuous to me.
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They could show this in the end screen maybe, but not before the match has started. Because too many killers would just try to dodge those teams.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931001#Comment_3931001
that's bhvr's philosophy
How does one still believe that? Killers have received so many good changes over the last years.
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@terumisan said:
you do realize that these changes will hurt new players right because these new players are here for the KILLER specifically also knowing bhvr the anti camp anti tunnel is going to make survivors more busted than they already are
Them not being able to camp and tunnel as effectively wouldn't hurt the new players that play Springtrap as much as tunneling and camping will hurt the experience of the new survivor players.
Also, survivors aren't busted, definitely not. They need these anti-camp and anti-tunneling changes badly.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I think it’s a shame that so many people have the attitude that if something isn’t fun for survivors then it obviously needs to be nerfed, but if something is unfun for killers then it should stay in the game.
Basically, it’s the idea that survivors have “real problems” that should be fixed, but killers have “not as bad” problems that they should suffer through.Except that's not the case with many people. I mean sure there will always be biased survivor mains that only care about the survivor side, just like there will always be biased killer mains that only care about the killers side.
But the thing is, currently, tunneling and camping are the biggest issues of DBD. Practically no one enjoys going against these strategies, and sadly they are wide spread because of how little skill they need. Killers of course also still have frustrations to deal with, and nobody is excluding the idea that those will be addressed in the future as well. But they aren't as pressing issues as tunneling and camping are.
Also, as said by BHVR themselves, if kill rates go down too much, killers can be buffed in other ways as well. Only in this case they would be buffed in more healthy ways. Even though I personally think 60% kill rate is a bit high of a target.
Also, killers have been getting their frustrations addressed many times already. So it's not like BHVR is neglecting the killer side in any way. Killers in general are in a decent spot now even without tunneling and camping.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
IMO these should've been in phase 1. Having them effectively be slated for December is going to be rough.
My biggest worry, though, is that even after waiting so long there's no guarantee these will actually be effective solutions. They haven't announced anything except to call these new changes "anti slug, anti tunnel, and anti camp", and to reassure players that "if they impact kill rates they will make adjustments to compensate".
Even with just that information alone, we've already had people slamming even the idea of looking into these issues. Complain early, and often has been the forums meta for about 4 years now, and it's convinced people that they can get BHVR to back down on changes, nerf before things go live.
I'll also add, that they put "anti camping" on the road map before, and what we received was AFC. There hasn't been a single post in two years about this feature that doesn't involve at least one person saying "it wasn't to prevent camping, just FACE camping". And now again, we've been given yet another black box labeled "anti camping" with no details.
This is so true. The changes have to be impactful and not just some slap on the wrist. Of course there are biased killer mains that will complain about these changes, even if killers get compensation buffs, but BHVR should know that by now and not restrain themselves from implementing some proper anti-camping and anti-tunneling changes.
As they said themselves, if kill rates change too much, they can buff killers in more healthy ways.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Fully agree here. The Anti-Camping and Anti-Tunneling measurements are planned from July to December, so it might as well just happen in December. And this is a long time.
Since you mention queue times, I would also say, especially because of queue times BHVR should have started with those measurements earlier. I mean, they are obviously aimed at a surge of new players, this is BHVRs main motivation behind them. Which is not good, but better late than never I guess. Because in the end, no surge of new players will stay if their Survivor experience is miserable.
However, in regards to queue times - it should have started earlier. Because FNAF will be a nightmare for Killer queues. It is a very popular chapter and it is a Killer-only chapter on top of it. So there is at least no new content for Survivors from the Chapter, so they need something to make Survivors play the game when the Chapter drops. It is not like there will be no Survivors, but I would guess that the queue times will be so bad because everyone wants to play Killer that you will have a similar situation like the current 2v8-queues.
And IMO BHVR has failed to work on that in time. Maybe they will announce something which gives an inventive to play Survivor, but so far it is not looking like it and that means that with FNAF arriving, queue times will be abyssmal for Killer and things which might help with that (Anti-Camping, Anti-Tunneling) are possibly months away.
I agree. Killer queue times with FNAF release will probably be as bad if not slightly worse as the 1vs4 queue times are now during the 2vs8 event. This is why at the very least I am hoping so much that Springtrap is very fun to go against, which will get more people to play survivor. Surely killer queue times will become better one or two weeks after FNAF releases, but probably not as good as they should be in general, until survivors get their anti-camping and anti-tunneling changes.
They also talked about survivor getting a new item I believe, so maybe that will help a bit.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930904#Comment_3930904
Yeah coldwind maps are so bad for survivors. I still wait for the old rancid abattoir main building to return, then that map would be halfway playable at least.
I wouldn't say they are that terrible. But they could be more balanced for sure with some more pallets. Cowshed is quite fine if you ask me, at least most of the times, Rancid Arbattoir is the worst of the Coldwin maps for survivor.
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I kind of agree. And while they are at it, they finally need to increase the minimum number of pallets that spawn on those maps.
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I really don't think this is needed. Ambush should have counterplay, so it's good survivors can tell when Pig is about to use ambush. I just think they could increase the movement speed during ambush ever so slightly to make it slightly stronger.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
I gather you have not been playing this game for that long, as the game has never been more killer sided than ever before.
Maps have been nerfed (made significantly smaller), gen repair times nerfed (increased) loops have been nerfed and second chance perks are very situational and have all been nerfed (as they should have been btw). You would have really hated pre-2020 DBD if you think killers have it rough now.
There are also random nerfs to survivor that I rarely see spoken about; they added a lot of weird ass loops that are incredibly awkward to navigate and ultimately very unsafe (think Nostromo/Toba), they removed a vast number of loops off maps and replaced connecting tiles with incredibly unsafe pallets that literally come down to a 50/50 mind game.
They also placed a lot of random junk to get stuck on in loops and I cant count the number of times recently where I get stuck on literally nothing, just something makes my movement almost stop for no apparent reason.
I would argue the game has definitely been more killer sided than it is right now. Game was definitely even better for killer right after the 6.1.0 update for example.
Right now the game isn't really killer sided at all. Not in general at least. Of course there are a few killers that make the game killer sided, Nurse in particular. But in general both sides have access to some very strong stuff. The bigger problem in my opinion is just how unfun the game can become for survivor sometimes, due to tunneling, camping and slugging. All strategies that are just way too strong for how easy they are to pull off and how unfun they are to go against.
Maps have definitely improved for killers, but in general I would say we have quite a few balanced maps now. Of course there are some maps that sadly became a bit killer sided as well. It's good though that more maps now have 50/50 loops as well, as mindgameable loops are definitely healthy for the game. As long as maps don't just exclusively have those type of loops.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930515#Comment_3930515
What us player imagine: Reward Killers for spreading hooks, making match fun for everyone.
What BHVR is doing: Eliminates tunnel/camp into the ground with zero compensation for Killers.
Mark my word, with these Devs, 99.9% it's gonna be like this.
Little is going to change if they just reward killers for spreading hooks. There will still be enough killer players that will tunnel and camp because of how easy it is to do. Tunneling and camping need to be nerfed in impactful ways, it's the only way.
I am of course not against a few killer improvements as compensation, but in my opinion killers have already been seeing more and more improvements over the last year, making tunneling and camping not that necessary anymore, even against good survivors. I never tunnel or camp and do fairly well in my killer matches.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930111#Comment_3930111
He'll have to break pallets at times, which makes him a 115% M1, and if the survivors keep getting to pallets, which they will because he has no catch-up ability after breaking pallets, then he stays that way. I don't even have to explain why that's unviable. You can break 80% of a map's pallets, and it doesn't matter because the match is basically over at that point. If the survivors run to a dead zone over and over to give easy downs, then that's on them.
If Ghoul is as strong as you say he is, then he shouldn't have to drop chases to beat survivors. He would just keep chasing and get them, right? And dropping chases is never the easy thing to do. You've already spent time chasing the survivor, and have probably just used your power, so it's on cooldown as you're traversing the map. Assuming you do have your power, traversing the map with it means you don't have it when starting your next chase, giving the survivors a free big start on you.
Saying he needs more nerfS is insane. He may* need 1 nerf, which has to do with his kidnap tech (I think they call it that?). Because this is the counterplay I've been preaching all along: If he's going to bound in front of you and cut you off, you should be able to position your body in front of where he wants to go, so that he can't do that. The problem is that sometimes you do that, and he still blocks you off, because it's almost like he warps through you slightly, or slides past you like you're covered in butter, yet then has a huge body blocking hitbox, and downs you. I would make it to where his hitbox during his bounds and while not bounding is consistently big, at least in regards to colliding with the survivors' bodies (and simultaneously don't apply it to colliding with the environment. They've done this with Victor's pounce, and the opposite with Wesker's dash). Or fix whatever "high velocity overrules survivor hitbox" thing is going on. It's one of those theories. Again, I'm not certain what causes it. But that's the 1 thing I'd say with him that needs to go.
Breaking pallets indeed makes him an M1 killer for a few seconds. Survivors can make it to more pallets after that but not always. Especially if you have already broken some pallets, you can get even good survivors to not reach more resources in time.
Not to mention that maps nowadays have a good amount of mindgameable pallets as well, which Kaneki doesn't have to break to get a hit at.
Also, dropping chase with Ghoul is arguably pretty easy, because of how fast he can get from one point to another, and how easy it is for him to injure survivors. Kaneki has map pressure like few other killers.
His kidnap tech definitely needs to be fixed, but I believe he might need two more small nerfs until he is in a perfectly balanced state.
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@Elan said:
Marking is faster than revealing.
GF changes:
- Once any survivor is marked, GF cant be revealed for the duration.
- Increase marked duration to 120s (along with exposed).
- While in stealh mode, GF has 10 % movement speed bonus.
- For as long as any surivor is marked, GF has undetectable and base attacks wont end his stealth mode.
- When a marked survivor is downed all other survivors will suffer from exposed for 120s
Those changes are way, way too much. None of these changes should happen to be honest, would just make him a hated killer among survivors.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
Love when all the forum warriors that are just 12 hooking SWFs left and right with Ghostface show up to tell everyone how they don't ever have to tunnel to win their games and killer is the easiest it's ever been. Conveniently they never show their own gameplay though and teach the rest of us how to do it
Dude, most people even agree that Ghost Face isn't particularly strong, so that argument is just bad. But most killers are stronger than Ghost Face, the game certainly shouldn't be balanced around killers like Ghost Face, that would make so many other killers op.
But it's 100% true that most people tunnel because it's just extremely easy to do and takes little skill, as opposed to playing normally, inflating their mmr and having them play at a skill level they don't belong to.
Tunneling isn't the instant win strategy every time, but it's way too good for how easy it is to pull off at the moment. Same goes for camping.
Also, killer isn't the easiest it's ever been, definitely not, that was arguably right after the 6.1.0 update, but they are still generally in a good spot.
I can only pray the upcoming anti-camp and anti-tunnel changes will be impactful, weakining those cheap strategies noticeably. If killers end up needing buffs because of that, although I believe they will only need small buffs in that case, since killers are already in a good spot, then BHVR will surely react accordingly.
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Kaneki is far from being weak. Yes he will now have to break pallets at times and that will bring his power into a short cooldown, but that doesn't mean he is weak. His ability to get injures is already strong. Then there is his abiltiy to get from one point on the map to another within seconds, giving him huge map pressure.
Lastly, his ability to catch up to injured survivors with his power is indeed still strong. Even the best survivors won't magically have pallets or windows at their disposal wherever they are, especially if you have broken some pallets already.
And if we are talking about highest mmr survivors, we also have to consider the highest mmr killer player playing Kaneki, who surely knows when to chase someone and when to drop chases, based on a survivors position and where pallets are still left. And dropping chases with Kaneki is insanely easy considering his insane mobility.
If anything, he still needs a few small nerfs to really make him fair and balanced. There is a reason why still so many survivor players dislike going against him.
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@coolgue1 said:
People just want more sm game play look st the last 7 docs all the killers take barley any effort to play now killer are so accustomed to how easy it is now all killer have yo follow siute u shouldent be able to pick up any killer and get a 4k but rn killers are so easy to play and take 0 effort to actually get half decent
I fail to see how the last 7 killers don't take any effort to play. Especially killers like Houndmaster. Dracula and Vecna also aren't that easy, even if they don't have the absolute highest skill ceilings. Same goes with Unkown, who arguably has a very high skill ceiling.
Kaneki was certainly too strong for how easy he is to play, and arguably still is a bit too strong, but even he does take a little bit of effort for sure.
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I really just hope the anti-tunneling and anti-camping changes are at least somewhat impactful, making those strategies less favorable.
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This would be so great. Especially letting people learn how to play against certain killers, since survivors can never choose which killer to play against. Some more niche tricks and tips would especially be helpful. Barely anyone seems to know how to counterplay vecna's Mage Hand when he uses it by reacting to survivors pallet drops, for example.