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ad19970
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@Pulsar said:
We add a reasonable comeback mechanic for Survivor.
The match can often feel over due to either the oppressive nature of some Killers, a matchmaker mismatch, the prevalence of anti-gen perks, the prevalence of certain exceedingly effective playstyles or plain bad luck.
This should be remedied. Just as Killers often stage a comeback over time, Survivor should be given a reasonable, I stress that word, ability to recover from early-game issues.
And what would that look like? In my experience survivors already have a comeback mechanic, in form of good chases.
A comeback for survivors would have to be implemented very carefully, as to not screw over killers that are simply playing well.
Honestly before they look into some form of comeback mechanic, I'd rather have the devs look at problematic killer strategies like camping and tunneling, which are too strong currently for the effort they require, and can be factors that prevent survivors from having a fair comeback chance.
That and information buffs for solo q I feel would be more important than some form of comeback mechanic.
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I don't see how this is unfair in any way or form. It's completely fine for hatch to spawn despite gates being open.
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@Royval said:
nerfed to oblivion. Crying survivors always win
Are you being ironic? Because he certainly wasn't nerfed to oblivion. And crying survivors don't always win, what kind of statement is that?
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Blight is still a very strong killer. His basekit alone is very powerful, which is why he doesn't need good addons on top of that. Not to mention his two iri addons are still way too strong and luckily are being nerfed in the next patch.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727705#Comment_3727705
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on maps, that's fine.
I do think it should lean towards being reliant on survivor mistakes since they're more likely to make mistakes as it's 4 different people. I just think the degree to how reliant most killers are is too much. I think A tier killers are probably a good balance level to where it still leans towards the survivors but not too much. By that point though, the vast majority of the killer roster are below A tier. IE if that's the case, most are too reliant on survivor mistakes, per my main point. If hypothetically almost all killers were around A tier level right now, I'd be fine with the current state.
My opinions here are also mostly assuming some variation of swf, not full solo queue, as the majority of my matches are not solo queue.
I agree that it should lean a bit more towards being reliant on survivors making mistakes.
But it seems we also disagree on what killers are A tier. I consider a fair amount of killers to be A tier. Or at least high B tier, which in my opinion can also still keep up with very good survivor teams, they just have a slightly harder time doing so.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728326#Comment_3728326
to annoy you
aight lemme just bring the killer to you by mistake
Lol pathetic. The person you are replying to is completely in the right. If you just give up for no reason of course we'll try and keep you alive so that you can't get into the next match that easy. Of course you can do whatever you want to after that but you'll have to stay in the match for longer, whether you like it or not.
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Never had that happen to me before, that's definitely not good at all, and should be fixed asap.
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I mean, Resident Evil games aren't asymetrical multiplayer games either, and yet that chapter got many new players into DBD.
In my opinion Vecna fits just fine into DBD, and doubt it means that we will see more unfitting stuff added to DBD. And his implementation is absolutely fantastic.
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@Cuirassier said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728003#Comment_3728003
It's the only way and I respect that. The devs need to remove the dc penalty
They are never going to do that, because people would leave way too frequently.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726439#Comment_3726439
Surely Nurse shouldn't be comp level to do this. Like every 100h player can just jump on Nurse and destroy any swf. You don't play against amazingly good swf every game, but every pub Nurse is pub stomper. Sure. No biases at all.
I said that you have to be good with Nurse. Not sure what you are getting at. But if the Nurse player is good, it doesn't really matter how good the survivors are. Nurse can wreck any kind of team. The exception being comp level survivor players maybe.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727695#Comment_3727695
Hard disagree. There are a few killers that do not rely on survivor mistakes, but like 95% of them do, to varying degrees. Maps have been getting much better, but better, is not good, they're still mostly bad. The majority of maps are still survivor sided to varying degrees, even if it's much better than it used to be.
If both sides play perfectly you lose on most killers. That's how you know they rely on survivor mistakes. Thankfully survivors tend to make lots of mistakes because it's 4 people, but it doesn't detract from the point. I'm not removing killer skill from the equation though. High killer skill sets up for more mistakes to happen, you're just still reliant on whether they fall for it or not.
Compare this to like a god tier Nurse. If the god tier Nurse and survivors both play perfectly the Nurse is probably winning. That's why she's an example of an exception where the survivors rely on her making mistakes.
Yeah no can't agree with that. In my opinion, the majority of maps are now balanced. Coldwin maps are all fair, one is even killer sided, most Macmillan and Autoheaven maps are also very balanced. Indoor maps are mostly balanced or even killer sided, and some of the newer maps like Borgo are also very balanced.
In my opinion, A tier killers are the perfect killers balance wise. If both teams play perfectly, survivors surely still have the upper hand, but it's definitely not as black and white in my opinion. A tier killers can keep up if you ask me, especially if they choose to tunnel and camp. They have enough chase power to not only rely on survivors mistakes.
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Maps have already become much more balanced. No need to further reduce the number of windows and pallets, that just leaves survivors with too little to counter killers with.
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@Blueberry said:
You rely on them making lots of mistakes. Thankfully most of them do. Unfortunately though if you hypothetically both play perfectly, you lose badly. To make up for how crazy of an advantage a 4 man swf is you have to be a significantly better player than them. Now you could try and compensate for their advantage with tunneling/camping, that's what most people do. The game isn't balanced for a SWF match.
To me personally though tunneling/camping/swf artificially gives people a lot of wins they wouldn't have got otherwise as it removes a lot of skill from the match and artificially increases their win rates. This is why I don't tunnel or camp and if I ever swf I don't bring items or map offerings and I run meme builds.
That is really not true. You don't have to rely on survivors making mistakes, not anymore. There are enough strong killers that don't rely on survivors mistakes, and maps have also become much more balanced to the point where you do not have to just rely on survivors mistakes. Killers nowadays have enough outplay potential.
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@Strodie said:
You will have zero issues because us survivors have it difficult, especially if the player decides to play in the most tryhard way possible. Playing against SWFs are just like going up against solo players nowadays, no matter the killer, if you simply run 4 slowdown perks, tunnel and camp every game, you have no issue, shows how overpowered killers are, and how they need nerfing.
Killers in general don't need to be nerfed, except for Nurse of course, and maybe HIllbilly and Blight a bit. But other than that, killers aren't op. OP strategies like tunneling and camping should be nerfed however.
Against a good swf team you can definitely still run into issues though, they are beateable, but not easily beateable.
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How are they holding the game hostage? Also they are using Dead Dawg Saloon map offerings? Why would they do that, considering it's a rather killer sided map?
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726466#Comment_3726466
In theory, Devs aiming for 60% kill rate, mean any balancing would still goes around 60%. But its not simple as how you think it is.
Currently, tunneling with stack slowdowns is still by far, alot more effective and mind numbing to play than using other perks that require specific play style, macro, time management, spread pressure.
Devs buffing killers alot to make the later play style easier to perform, a way to encourage killers to play the later play style. And survivors are quite okay with it.
Except you cant stop killers using the insane buff to keep tunneling and stack slowdowns, this is where average survivors dont even have a chance against average killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726752#Comment_3726752
I heard that games with a DC doesnt count into the stats. The only games counted are suicide on first hook when there is at least 50% chance to power Gates.
Otherwise, I dont see a survivor suicide on 2nd hook when killers get 8 hooks with 4 Gens remaining would affect the kill rate. The game ends in 3K and hatch escape either they stay or suicide.
Hey, I agree that tunneling and camping are too strong in the game right now. No doubt. I think 55% kill rate would be good enough, and to achieve that, they probably would just have to nerf tunneling and camping to make them not favorable strategies anymore.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726731#Comment_3726731
This is probably why the devs are going for a 60% kill rate, because the hook suicides inflate the kill rates
I think you are mistaking the cause for the effect here. Don't you think it's because the devs for some reason decided that "balance" is 60% kill rate instead of 50%, soloQ survivors sometimes can't take this mathematically killer-sided balance and therefore go next more often?
No not really. I mean the game surely has some balance issues towards solo queue, but the reason for the higher kill rate is surely also because of the hook suicides. Survivors weren't strangers to hook suicides before the big killer buff patch for example.
I do think they should go for a 55% kill rate target though. That to me makes more sense. And they could easily achieve this by nerfing op killer strategies like tunneling and camping, and/or buffing solo queue by giving them more information.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726731#Comment_3726731
I do see that argument brought up, but survivors do generally leave when the match is a certain defeat. For example, Blight has slugged everyone at 5 gens and they start DCing. It was a blowout win for the killer but the match gets thrown out because someone threw in the towel. It really happens a lot. I wish they were counted but I really doubt BHVR wants anyone to know how bad survivors have it.
That certainly hasn't been my experience. I mean, sure I have gotten dc's as well, sometimes when the match was already lost, but not very often. Hook suicides are far more common than dc's.
Don't get me wrong, solo queue has it's rough edges. OP killers like Nurse still exist. Killer sided maps like new Haddonfield exist. Op strategies like tunneling and camping still exist. And solo queue could use some more information as well. Still, balance isn't that bad for solo queue, at least not if you've got a team of decent survivors. Matchmaking and people giving up is a bigger issue in my opinion. But solo queue could definitely need some improvements.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726416#Comment_3726416
Since DCs are excluded, the escape rate is infact tremendously lower than 39%. The chances of escape is extremely low. It's very unbalanced.
See that's just it. DC's leading to losses for survivors has nothing to do with the game's balance. This is probably why the devs are going for a 60% kill rate, because the hook suicides inflate the kill rates. Even though I do think the kill rate should be closer to 55%.
Also, not sure about others, but I don't get a dc every third game. They are rather rare compared to hook suicides.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726441#Comment_3726441
It really is. Once you actually play solo Q for a couple days you realize quickly that the win rate is below the 40% mark. The devs just exclude DC's but it no reason for me as player to. These matches was L's and most of time players DC when losing. No these matches did not magically get erase form my mind so I'm not excluding them for my status. I went through the experience! why wouldn't i count these matches.
In my experience dc's aren't very common, unless the match was kind of lost anyways. Hook suicides are more common for me at least. Though of course I do get the occasional dc as well.
However, especially when talking about balance, I don't think it makes sense to consider these matches in any way or form. Not to mention that killers dc sometimes as well.
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@Coriander said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723781#Comment_3723781
I've been playing a while, and I can often top the score as killer with 0 deaths. The bonus point system to incentivize less-populated sides is great, but people need something to stay in the game, so I agree with you. Points are nice but I would also dream of a Shard bonus. Trying to fill out two platform's rosters is a royal pain, to say nothing of default outfits years later…
Wrong reply
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@Ilikechips said:
Maps will only get smaller, killers will get more buffs, survivors will get more nerfs, kill rates will increase.
It's only going to get worse for survivors.
How is that? The devs are aiming for a 60% kill rate, so why would it get worse? Not to mention killers are getting all of their best slowdown perks nerfed in the next update.
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@Junylar said:
If your escape rate in soloQ is even remotely near 39%, I must say you are one lucky soloQ survivor.
That really isn't "lucky" considering that's the average escape rate.
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I kind of wish they balanced the game more around a 55% kill rate. I get why the kill rate is supposed to be over 50%, but 60% seems a bit excessive to me.
They could easily buff solo survivors by giving them more information, or nerf tunneling and camping. Because solo survivor can be quite rough at the moment, I agree with that.
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@fussy said:
Destroys? If we talk about really good coordinated SWF, probably none. Have a chance against? Nurse, Billy, Blight. Maybe Artist, Oni and Wesker, if you truly insane on them. Anyway, you should waste a big amount of time to learn all of them. Only killer which literally destroys SWF was PTB (last one) Twins, and it was such a pleasure to switch places for a while.
Unless the swf are comp players, Nurse can still destroy even very good swf survivors, as long as you are good with her.
But there are enough other killers that can easily keep up even with good swf survivors.
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@Coriander said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723781#Comment_3723781
I've been playing a while, and I can often top the score as killer with 0 deaths. The bonus point system to incentivize less-populated sides is great, but people need something to stay in the game, so I agree with you. Points are nice but I would also dream of a Shard bonus. Trying to fill out two platform's rosters is a royal pain, to say nothing of default outfits years later…
A shard bonus would be amazing, I agree with that. But I kind of doubt that will ever happen.
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@Rogue11 said:
Billy was massively overbuffed and I'm tired of pretending he's still remotely fun to play against.
I agree to an extend. I think he was a bit overbuffed. His cooldown after chainsawing is still a tad too forgiving and the extra curving duration was unnecessary.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
I'd like to see a major change. Otherwise increase the gen time to 120 If they are going to keep adding gen perks and nerfing gen control.
120 seconds? What? That would be so overkill, gens are fine at 90 seconds.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415028/would-a-generator-rework-be-a-good-idea
the chase is the heart of the game right
In current state of the game with small maps, weak tiles and gens next to each other?
Absolutely not
There really aren't that many small maps, and most maps don't have that many weak tiles either, but a fair amount of strong tiles. Maps have simply become fairer finally, that's it.
So yeah, chase is definitely the heart of the game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725699#Comment_3725699
weakening huntress ability to camp hook is taking away her identity. her win condition.
This is not serious right? How is that her identity?
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415060/penalty-for-giving-up-on-hook-1st-stage
Why I constantly see:
this ruins the game for both sides and fast.
Yet only killers complain? Just finish that game and go to the next one, simple as that.
I don't get this "nooo, my game is ruined!!!", who cares, you'll find next match in 2 minutes, finish game, go to the next one, ggs.
Also:
this has been in discussion for a long time.
IDK why they give up honestly, but they do.
So maybe read those discussions and comments that people have added, because they have clearly stated why survivors give up.
A lot of the reasons people give are not really good reasons to just give up right at the beginning.
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I mean, some of these are definitely hot takes, but is the Nurse one really a hot take? I feel like at this point many people agree that she is just ridiculously op.
Also, I enjoy the swamp maps for the most part so I'd like to keep them.
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Yes, this has been happening to me as well. I've been getting this map more often than any other map, by quite the margin. It's so annyoing too, because the map is terrible.
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In general I would love if the main objective of survivors was more than just repairing gens. Incentivising to move around the map more and do more interesting things.
The only concern I have is the disparity between solo and swf in those cases. BHVR would somehow have to find a way to add some form of other objective that swf survivors can't deal with easier thanks to communication than solo survivors.
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Solo queue can be rough, which surely is one of the reasons some people suicide on hooks. Often the reason for a suicide on hook is ridiculous, like when they are the first to go down and that's it, but there is no doubt to me that buffing solo queue would at least help with this problem a bit.
I don't think solo queue is necessarily terrible balance wise, but it certainly is still lacking some information that swf survivors have.
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@Ilikechips said:
Since the devs decided to make killer baby mode easy by giving them all 60% kill rates minimum, every killer meta will feel oppressive to survivors.
If you think that killer is baby easy mode then you probably haven't been playing killer a lot yourself. It surely isn't if you go against good survivors.
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No, I disagree. SWF should not be nerfed. Solo queue should be further buffed and then killers can be brought at least close to the level of swf. That's the way BHVR should balance this game. They luckily already have done part of that with the solo queue hud, but there is more to do in my opinion.
Plus I don't think swf is that terrible to deal with anyways. A lot of swf teams aren't comp level, and you can't balance the game around the top 1% of players anyways.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724135#Comment_3724135
Yeah, all that stuff is true. But why "at the moment" when solo objectively has tools they previously did not. At the moment implies that at another moment it was better, but it categorically was not. Unless you have forgotten that base BT used to not be a thing, bubba used to be able to just sit on top of your hook, you can see what your team is doing and make informed decisions based on that or that you used to just be able to be taken out of the game after one hook.
Solo is the best it's ever been, people just don't want to hear it because their solo teammates are never going to do the stuff they want them to do. People do things that make sense to them, not you. Whether or not that's the right thing to do is up in the air, but that's how humans are.
Base kindred is more handholding that I cannot get behind. You can determine what your team is doing and whether you need to save via the activity HUD.
I would argue there were times where solo queue was easier, when the game used to be massively survivor sided.
Base kindred I do not see as handholding at all. It would simply give solo survivors information that swf survivors have. The survivor hud certainly helps in situations where a survivor is on a hook, but it's not as good as information that swf have via communication.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723716#Comment_3723716
What do you mean "at the moment"? It's been way more difficult in the past. The activity HUD is a huge boon if you apply game sense to it.
The activity HUD is fantastic but that doesn't mean solo queue doesn't have it's rough edges. One is matchmaking, though that can't be fixed with balance. Another problem that I believe solo queue has is the bad survivor tutorial, it would be nice if more survivor players knew how to actually play survivor.
Last but not least there is still a noticeable gap between the information swf can work with and the information that solo survivors can work with. In my opinion the gap isn't as big as some people make it out to be, but it surely exists, and it would be nice if solo survivors got a few more information buffs, such as kindred basekit.
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@HPhoenix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723104#Comment_3723104
I agree! I was thinking about either Basekit Corrupt or Deadlock? Surely we can think of a good compensation for these buffs.
Corrupt might be an idea. Or some form of regression that rewards killers for going for different survivors. Not sure.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723940#Comment_3723940
That's how these people think: killer having any advantage for any amount of time is a lost match. It's why they think the whole killer roster is viable, and not just the top 3.
I mean, some people here are definitely a bit pessimistic about survivors chances of winning. But I don't think it's just about killer having any advantage at all.
And I also disagree that only the top 3 killers are viable, the game certainly has more viable killers than only 3.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723902#Comment_3723902
I'm not really arguing about the giving up part, I'm arguing about the comeback mechanic.
An average Killer versus an average Survivor with the Killer getting an early down is pretty damn difficult to come back from. You do need to have gen-long chases because of slowdown/tunneling. You need to buy time for everyone to reset, split up and start on gens.
I am not going to agree with this. It all depends on how efficient the survivor team is on gens, and how long chases last that come after the first chase. If the survivors and killer are equally skilled, there is definitely still a fair chance for survivors to make a come back.
And no, in my experiecne, you don't always need gen long chases to make a comeback. Of course there are a lot of factors that have an effect on this, for example how many survivors are injured at the time of a chase. Also, as I said, if the killer is running a full slowdown build, things get harder, but not impossible. Not to mention the best slowdown perks are getting nerfed anyways in the next patch.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723948#Comment_3723948
The actual rule for that is "someone dead before the fourth gen is done is usually a Killer win"
In the majority of cases, this is right. A 3 vs 1 is hard to win with 2 or more gens up.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723780#Comment_3723780
As a rule of thumb, two hooks before two gens = ez win for the killer.
Disagree with that. It certainly isn't looking bad for the killer in that scenario, but it definitely isn't an easy win either.
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@mbombarda said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723904#Comment_3723904
Okay so explain to me why I won 600+ matches in a row as a survivor with my squad? I'll wait patiently for your serious answer.
Yeah that is indeed very hard to believe. But even if this was actually true, just look at the kill streaks that killers can go on as well. No sorry, but the average match of DBD is definitely just as winnable for killers as it is for survivors.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723896#Comment_3723896
If the killer downs a survivor before a single gen is even close to completion, there is basically no way to come back from that in the average pub game, except if the killer throws on purpose.
Definitely disagree with that. I have had enough matches that weren't like this. You'll just need some good chases as well, to counterbalance the bad chase at the start.
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@mbombarda said:
This games already won by survivors. Stop using stropes from 4Chan. Killers stand 0 chance in his current meta and this new PTB will sink em in further down the mud. Survivors absolutely deserves this victory and they should flaunt it either through flashlight clicking or tbagging.
What did I just read?
Also, killers stand more than a decent chance in this current meta.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723891#Comment_3723891
Which is not something that happens in an average match.
In order to recover from that, you'd need to be chased for at least a gen, if not more.
That's a pretty massive ask in today's meta.
I disagree. Good chases aren't an absolute rarity, even against strong killers. You also don't need to be chased a whole gen to make a comeback after a bad start, not in my experience. Of course it also depends on how efficient survivors are working on gens. But no, that's an exaggeration in my opinion.
If the killer hard tunnels things become harder as well, admittedily. But that's an issue of tunneling being too strong at the moment.
Again, very bad reason to immediately give up and screw over your team.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Why play out a lost game? If the first chase is incredibly short or doesn't happen at all (if the killer finds them in a locker) that's it. There is a 99% chance that that game will end in a 3/4k anyway, so why not move on? Also most of the people that let go in chaos shuffle have no mither and that is completely understandable. That perk is basically an insta loss.
One bad chase at the start does not end in a 99% chance of losing, what the actual hell? You can have good chases as survivor afterwards.