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ad19970
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734071#Comment_3734071
Quickly. Not that people said that already during PTB. Sigh.
What are you talking about? On the ptb Mage Hand was rather weak, no one was concerned it would be too strong.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735150#Comment_3735150
If they don't pay attention, they won't crouch to dodge. Not difficult to understand.
I think we have already established that Fotd is bad on standing pallets, simply because survivor is able to drop pallet faster than you can attack.
It works on windows with only limited use, it's not really good for it either. You need be near enough for survivor to not be able to just vault after it, or continue running around it you also need to use a lot in advance so survivor can't just vault and crouch after it. It's not like you can use it on reaction against vaults, it is too slow for it.
One possible buff I can see is simply let Vecna attack right after casting it, then it actually does what you described, but not really right now.
Right now, Vecna has actually low skill ceiling. You need to only know things (situations), that's basically on level of Clown.
You have few situations where you power actually works, any other situation it's pointless to try, just lost distance and bloodlust. You can't get value out of it with your skill. Probably only exception is Fly, that's why I wouldn't change this one.
Only other thing that can increase your effectiveness, are bad survivors...
It's pointless to go for long range shots, you can't surprise survivors on gens.
Well sure, but that doesn't detract from the situations where survivors know what they are doing but still get hit because you used FoTD properly.
FoTD is not that good at standing pallets, true, but it does depend on where the survivor is positioned at a pallet loop. Also, if you predict that a survivor will drop the pallet they are running at, you can drop FoTD on top of their heads while they are in the pallet animation to get a hit.
I have gotten plenty of M1 hits against survivors because they were forced to crouch in front of the window and then medium vaulted. Not sure what you are doing wrong to not be able to replicate that.
I would argue his skill ceiling isn't that low. There are definitely timings to get right with him. But it's also not as high as say Singularity, that's for sure.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734445#Comment_3734445
It really isn't. It is way too soon to be changing a killer just because people refuse to learn to play different.
It is, many people have already figured out how to use Mage Hand, and how there isn't a lot of counterplay against it.
The nerf is going to happen, and that's a good thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Ni-mDlQQGo to 6:35 and see for yourself how even predropping the pallet with as much distance as Kate has in this video doesn't help against Mage Hand. What exactly was Kate supposed to do in this situation? The nerf to Mage Hand is going to make that ability at least a bit more manageable.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734958#Comment_3734958
Because it works best when survivors don't pay attention, have bad positioning, or just don't know how Vecna works.
If survivor knows what they are doing, Vecna's 1v1 is quite weak.
That's not true. Using FoTD to deny vaults or pallets has nothing to do with the survivors positioning. Or the fact that they don't pay attention. What on earth?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734889#Comment_3734889
Why? Because it involves survivors? Apparently a minor nerf to killer's only reliable chase tool is fine, yet a minor nerf to survivor in any way is the end of the world.
Because these are completely different things we are talking about. On the one side you have an ability of a killer with not much counterplay, on the other side you have the main objective of survivors.
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@Neaxolotl said:
What's worse is addon nerfs and FoTD nerfs, those can very well kill the killer just like they did with merchant chucky and the sadako
What FoTD nerfs is he getting?
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734888#Comment_3734888
I would argue Flight of the Damned takes more skill because survivors can crouch under the ability.
I would argue the result is more based on survivor's lack of skill rather than killer's skill, which I don't consider good design either.
How is it more based on the survivors lack of skill?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416368/vecnas-mage-hand-needs-a-bit-of-a-nerf
3:16 is unsafe loop. any killer will get m1 hit. the survivor should pre-drop pallet. there is no reason for survivor to be waiting this long.
5:29 is also poor distancing. You need to be around 5:27 in term of distancing for mage hand to not work. if you don't pre-drop pallet from this distance, you get hit.
this killer has no 50/50's when the pallet is not dropped, the killer is being able to react to pallet drops is not mindgame. Your either far enough away to make next loop or you not far enough away to make next loop. it is that cut dry.
3:18 is where he has to pre-drop pallet to be safe vs mage hand. it is around 2 killer lunges. when the pallet is dropped. Mindgames with this killer begin when pallet is dropped where killer has to predict when survivor will slide when both survivor go around loop. People are playing vs him completely wrong.
Yes predropping the pallet earlier would have been good at 3:16. The point of the video here is to show that there are too many situations where the survivor can't do anything against Mage Hand. If Vecna is already close enough to the survivor, he can just react to the survivor dropping the pallet and then use Mage Hand. That's the point. The size of the loop here plays no role in that case.
This is why it's good that Mage Hand is getting a small nerf.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734446#Comment_3734446
They do? Mage hand is in a perfect spot right now. I dont know why this is happening.
I would argue it isn't quite. It can lead to free hits a bit too often. I would have rather nerfed the movement speed of Mage Hand a bit though, but I guess increasing the time it takes to lift a pallet is also fine.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734073#Comment_3734073
Why don't we also nerf survivor interaction and repair speeds by 5%? I mean it's a very small nerf and will make game feel more fair for killers. I'm sure survivors will still be fine. SWFs probably also won't feel the change. Right?
What an awful comparison.
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@HolyDarky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734488#Comment_3734488
I agree with @VomitMommy Flight of the Damned is pathetic due to the crouching counter.
Some players say you should use it as a zoning tool to make distance when the survivor crouches but this feels so bad and unsatisfying. It doesn't require any skill like by aiming to the point where the survivor will run or where they dodge. The spawn and fly time is also slow and gives survivors enough time to react, especially since the spell has a sound warning. All this makes the magic item useless as there is no reason to see the skeletons to avoid their hitboxes when you just can crouch counter them. The spell has a huge cooldown of 38 seconds and has this simple counter. A guaranteed hit is only when a survivor is in a animation but this is also rather pathetic. I also don't like it from the survivor pov.
Either they remove the crouching aspect or reduce the cooldown by a lot.
Dispelling Sphere is okay. The issue with this spell is disabling magic items is not really necessary because they are not what they supposed to be. The magic item for the Flight of the Damned is rather useless as you can counter them easily, magic item for Fly and Dispelling Sphere is semi okay. Only the magic item for Mage Hand is good. Vecna's Eye and Hand cannot be blocked which is also sad. The Sphere is mostly good for Informationen or when paired with the iri Sword addon. I don't to suggest to buff the magic item but by removing the crouch counter for FotD the magic item would become much better and as a result also the Dispelling Sphere.
Fly is fine but could get a slightly buff.
Mage Hand: nerfing the range seems random. Nerfing the lift up time okay but then they should also slightly nerf the magic item. It will still be a good spell but after the nerf it will be a huge risk high reward spell.
I enjoy Vecna a lot and think he is a good killer but I see it like VomitMommy and think he will be rarely used like Singularity. Players don't like killers that have a high risk high reward, unsatisfying feeling orare hard to master with still some flaws and currently Vecna is all of it in some ways.
Disagree. I would argue Flight of the Damned takes more skill because survivors can crouch under the ability. Because in order to get value from it you have to use it cleverly, timing the ability right. Unlike if you couldn't crouch under the ability, which would just grant you hits often enough simply for aiming it in the general direction of survivors. I think it's good the way it is. If they did remove the crouch counterplay, they would have to reduce the hitbox size of the skeletons a bit as well, to make sure it's still dodgeable even up close.
I really don't see Vecna becoming the next Singu. Vecna does arguably have a fairly high skill floor and ceiling though, but not as high as Singu.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
If you want some really easy matches where one or more of the survivors DC's or gives up immediately, then I'd definitely recommend buying him.
What on earth are you talking about? He is really not that bad for survivors.
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He has multiple abilities but they all have a long cooldown, I don't see how that's a problem when playing as survivor. It definitely takes a bit of learning to know what to do against his spells, surely, but I don't think he is a problem in that regard.
The only ability that is a bit overtuned at the moment is Mage Hand, but it's already confirmed that that ability will receive a small nerf.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734465#Comment_3734465
I'm also not quite sure where the 1.5 seconds are coming from?
typo, was supposed to be 0.5 sec.
the other 3 abilities not.
Killers complain on those, because except Fly they are just weak.
If only change he gets is quite a huge nerf for Mage hand, I am just not interested in him at all. He is going to join Singularity in my opinion.
They should definetly buff Flight of the Damned. I don't think it should be possible to dodge it by crouch, mainly because it also make it impossible hit survivors on gen, which I find just so annoying…
Sorry but I can't agree with you about Flight of the Damned and Dispell Sphere. Especially the former is very effective when used correctly. That's why I also think Flight of the Damned doesn't need to be buffed. If they do ever make that ability not crouchable, then I hope they also reduce the hitbox size of the skeletons a bit to make sure survivors can still dodge in between, even at close range.
The nerf Mage Hand will be receiving is not huge at all though. It's just a small nerf that will allow for a little more counterplay on the survivors side and that's it. How is that a huge nerf?
Pretty sure he won't have the same fate as Singularity. Surely most people who enjoy him now will still enjoy him after the small nerf to Mage Hand, I know I will still enjoy him like crazy.
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There are definitely more than 3 pallets, but I do agree that it doesn't spawn quite enough pallets in that area. I am not sure how the tiles that spawn in the top side are garbage though, I have seen enough good tiles spawn as well. There's only that one meme pallet that is the worst pallet I have ever seen.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734441#Comment_3734441
Mage Hand at the moment is quite often not a 50/50. Because you can just wait until the survivor dropped the pallet and then use Mage Hand. Increasing the time it takes to lift a pallet should solve this issue. But I would have preferred if they decreased Mage Hand's movement speed a bit instead.It is not really 50/50 now, because of a bug. When you will be forced to respect a pallet, that is going to be 50/50.
Lifting pallet is useless unless you cast it at the moment survivor is dropping the pallet, because you lose too much distance otherwise for it to be a hit.
So you are free to wait, but if survivor keeps running, you don't have time to react and if you guess wrong and don't respect, you can't use mage hand to get a hit anymore (after a nerf).
As 1.5 seconds and when it stops whenever you get stunned it is going to be way weaker. Blocking pallets work only on god pallets, because on normal loops survivor can just loop again, which is even easier if they have haste boots.
I have tried around 30 games, where I tried to go for "after nerf version" → not using lifting addon and not using enduring. Yeah, I have already stopped. Whenever I played against somewhat decent survivors, it could get so frustrating.
I am definetly not interested in Vecna if nerf is the only thing he gets in future.
If they want to make Mage hand weaker, then they better buff Flight of the Damned. Either don't let survivors crouch, or let Vecna attack way faster, so it can be used on standing pallets and probably reduce spread (if you don't remove crouch).
The most annoying thing about it is you are not able to hit survivors working on gens. That just sucks on so many levels…I disagree. I have been able to react to pallet drops with Vecna plenty of times and still get a hit against the survivor, and that's without the addon. The pallet lift animation is slightly too quick. With the nerf, you will be more forced to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, which is a good thing.
I'm also not quite sure where the 1.5 seconds are coming from?
I really doubt Vecna will receive many other impactful nerfs in the future. Mage Hand was complained about a lot, the other 3 abilities not.
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@radiantHero23 said:
The enduring stuff should absolutely go. Otherwise, no further nerfs are needed.
The small nerf it is getting surely won't be a big deal though, Mage Hand will still be good. I think it's good that they are nerfing Mage Hand just a bit beyond the Enduring interaction.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733946#Comment_3733946
Can you not? It hasn't even been a week yet. Let the playerbase have some time to discover how to play against him. It actually isn't even that hard. All they would have to do is learn to not pre-drop or camp pallets.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734122#Comment_3734122
We already saw what that looked like in the PTB. It made Mage Hand totally useless.
They shouldn't nerf the slowdown back to how it was on the ptb obviously, in my opinion the movement speed of Mage Hand's cooldown would only need a very small reduction and that's it. But I guess the nerf Mage Hand is getting is ok as well.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734264#Comment_3734264
Flight of the Damned is very good when timed right, because it can stop survivors from dropping a pallet
Doesn't really work, because you can't attack immediately, so if they just crouch, they can drop the pallet after it.
Tell me, how was I supposed to play this differently with Flight of the damned?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ztlaFVlPCo
You also gain a bit of distance on survivors that crouch to dodge Flight of the Damned.
Yeah, that's the only way except survivor playing bad. Thing is if you get the hit from this, you would hit that survivor anyway in most situations. You still get slowed.
Fly is a fantastic map treversal tool,
I really wouldn't call it fantastic, unless survivor is in open you will not usually get a hit, but it is decent enough. I don't really think this one need to change.
Dispell Sphere
Issue is it can give you false information, if survivors have item to see it.
Also, survivors can't drop the pallet immediately after its lifted
it's 50/50 and even if you guess right, you don't always get hit, if it is short loop. It is going to be weak after their nerf it (twice). If survivor has haste item, you are screwed.
At undropped pallets Flight of the Damned is only occasionally good. It's much better against vaults and dropped pallets. In that situation there was nothing else you could have done.
But it definitely can gain you a bit of distance thanks to the slowdown being much less now.
Mage Hand at the moment is quite often not a 50/50. Because you can just wait until the survivor dropped the pallet and then use Mage Hand. Increasing the time it takes to lift a pallet should solve this issue. But I would have preferred if they decreased Mage Hand's movement speed a bit instead.
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@RhodosGuard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734076#Comment_3734076
"Flight of the Damned is good"
It can literally be crouched under and announces itself loudly
"Fly is good"
It has a Recovery Time of 2.5 seconds during which you cannot attack and are slowed down to 2 m/s causing it to usually be a time loss in any chase and reveals you earlier to survs outside of a chase
"Dispelling Sphere is a good ability"
Magic Items literally turn the slow moving Sphere visible.
And when it comes to Magehand:
If lifting a pallette: drop it again
If holding a pallette: keep running the loop
By increasing the Time Mage Hand needs to lift and removing the only way to reduce that time, survivors can just safely drop Pallette and run
The only way you'd think there is no counterplay, is if you play against Vecna and still believe it is a really good idea to drop a pallette when he is literally just a few steps behind you.
Mage Hand literally gives you ressources back that you usually have very little ways to regain.Flight of the Damned is very good when timed right, because it can stop survivors from dropping a pallet or vaulting. You also gain a bit of distance on survivors that crouch to dodge Flight of the Damned.
Fly is a fantastic map treversal tool, or an anti-w tool. It lets you catch up to survivors very effectively, and the slowdown at the end isn't that detremental. It's definitely not a time loss that's for sure.
Dispell Sphere is a good information tool, and it can disable items as well.
Also, survivors can't drop the pallet immediately after its lifted. Vecna can go through the pallet and get a hit against the survivor.
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@DeadManJoe33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733996#Comment_3733996
That's garbage, it was the only tool Vecna had to be a decent killer. EVERYONE said how bad he was during the PTB with the way Mage Hand was, why would you revert it?! Just leave it be! Give the community time to learn how to counter it, why can't we have a strong killer for once?
It's not being reverted, just the pick up time is being reverted. Vecna still is slowed down much, much less compared to the ptb, so Mage Hand will still be a strong ability.
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@Peanits said:
Hey folks, now that we've had some time to see it play out and think it over, I wanted to give a quick update. We'll be making some changes to Mage Hand in one of our upcoming minor patches.
- We'll be slightly reducing Mage Hand's range to 14m (was 16m)
- We're reverting the pallet lift time to 0.5s (was 0.35s) - this is the same as the PTB version.
We'll also be reworking the Ring of Telekenesis add-on (which currently causes Mage Hand to pick up pallets quicker) to have a different effect since this turned out to be a very risky number to mess with.
And lastly, as a quick reminder, we'll be fixing a bug which caused Mage Hand to continue picking up a pallet after it stuns you (the stun will correctly cancel Mage Hand), so combining it with Enduring will no longer be an issue.
The problem with this nerf is that it does nothing against blocking pallets, which is arguably also still a bit too strong, granting too many free hits at loops just for blocking the pallet. Especially with the addon Boots of Speed.
I really think the pallet pick up time is fine, and the nerf that Vecna's Mage Hand needs is a small movement speed reduction to the Mage Hand post-cast cooldown.
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@RhodosGuard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733996#Comment_3733996
Cool I love how this Killer who had 3 pretty bad and 1 mediocre power will now have 4 pretty bad powers.
I fail to see how his powers are all bad. Mage Hand will still be good, Flight of the Damned is good, Fly is good, and even Dispell Sphere is a good ability. It's interesting how you seem to believe survivors need to learn how to play against Vecna and adapt, meanwhile you seem to be reluctant to learning how to play as Vecna at all.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733996#Comment_3733996
I swear they don't want killers play on something except Nurse, Billy and Blight
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WB1PDQLFLIYP/controlling-laugh-laughing.gif
Dude it's a very small nerf, simply to make Mage Hand a bit fairer for survivors, Vecna is still going to be A tier easily.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
It's already getting a bit of a nerf:
I am impressed with how quickly BHVR is responding to the Mage Hand complaints, hats off to them. I am not sure if this is the right way to nerf it though, I really think reducing the movement speed during the cooldown a bit would have been the better solution, but it's at least something. So I am happy.
Also, thank you for letting me know.
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@RhodosGuard said:
Survivors the second Pallettes stop being crutches that grind a chase to a halt, writing essays on why an ability that has counterplay available needs to be nerfed for even more counterplay.
The only way Vecna gets a guaranteed hit at a pallette is if you treat a pallette as a crutch to stop a chase after he has basically already caught up to you.
If he reacts to you dropping the pallette by lifting it, either start running the loop and drop it on the next, or re-drop it instantly, you may risk a hit, but you also get a stun. If he is running his Unique Perks that stun is 25% longer.
As much as he can react to you dropping a pallette you can react to his Mage Hand. Which reinforces that Survivor is the role more suited to purely reactionary gameplay.I am a killer main just fyi, who now has started to main Vecna. I just want killers to be fun and fair for both sides, which is why I think Mage Hand needs a slight nerf.
I also explained why I think that Mage Hand doesn't have enough counterplay in my post. I am also not sure how survivors can react to Vecna's Mage Hand.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733735#Comment_3733735
Vecna's only reliable tool is Mage Hand. It's a fact.
Vecna's only reliable CHASE tool is Mage Hand. Everything in his kit is plenty useful, just not in chase.
The tools aren't weak, you're just using them wrong.
I would argue Flight of the Damned is also a good chase tool. He pretty much has two anti-loop abilities, an anti-w ability, and an intel ability. So I agree he is definitely strong enough. If anything, Mage Hand needs a very small nerf.
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@Forevanity said:
Being hard to play well doesn't make a killer weak. If that were true, Nurse wouldn't be considered S tier. It might take a while before he regains his abilities, but each one has a decent amount of power behind them, and at least two of them make pallets irrelevant if used properly with flight acting as a mobility perk that gives him a nice speed boost and lets him fly over pallets, while mage hand making pallets temporarily held. In addition, he has an aura reader ability, and a mid to long range attack ability which are all very decent if used strategically. The long range ability arguably also makes pallets irrelevant—if you shoot the skeletons out while someone's on the pallet, they can't duck them and you punish for that. That's why one of his perks
Most killers get one, maybe two abilities but he has four, and they all have a lot of variation. His cooldown definitely doesn't need to be shortened, people playing him just need to be smart with when and how they use those abilities. So far when I've played survivor against him, I've seen him absolutely annihilate the groups I've been in and I've witnessed 4k's back to back with him. I can't even compare it to other killers, he just has so much potential in the right hands. I'd be sooner to argue he's overpowered than I would ever come to the conclusion that he were underpowered. So many matches where survivors haven't even been able to finish 2 gens. x_x
The most important tip I can give someone with Vecna: he's strongest at the beginning of the match. The more items that are collected by the survivors, the worse off you are, so get perks that let you hit them fast and hard at the beginning rather than late game perks, otherwise you may struggle. That's why a lot of my matches have ended before 2 gens because he's just so good at the beginning and perks like Lethal Pursuer basically just makes his life a cake walk to domino players from the beginning of the game.
I would argue he is just a tad op at the moment, because of Mage Hand, that ability needs a small nerf to be fairer for survivor. Then he'll be in a great spot.
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@Junylar said:
Not you alone. First they add a ton of killers who ignore pallets, ie the only way survivors have to defend themselves, and then they complain about the rising amount of survivors going next on the first hook.
Most killers don't ignore pallets, they just have ways to counterplay pallets so they might get a hit. They certainly don't just ignore them. There is a difference. Nurse, now she completely ignores pallets.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733008#Comment_3733008
is that with or without addons cause if I dont get the Mage Hand timing within 10% accuracy it does nothing. and I have not experimented with addons yet.
With the addons it's worse, but even without the addons I would argue Mage Hand is just a bit too strong at the moment.
If you ask me, a movement speed of 3.18 m/s during the Mage Hand cooldown would probably be perfect.
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Just don't be disappointed when they nerf Mage Hand because I do think it will need a small nerf. But otherwise I agree, playing with him has been a great time.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732986#Comment_3732986
Nope but I do now. I still think its annoying that pallets seem to become increasingly less valuable the longer this game goes on. When you play against Trapper, ghost face or the Spirit for example you really see the value of pallets. As far as ranged attacks go, I really don't like them. I think in a game where a survivors main thing against the killer is to run that distance should always offer value. I don't think any ability should be able to down you from range except for Huntress.
I mean that's a fair opinion, I just disagree with this. I think pallets still have value against killers like Vecna, they just aren't too strong either, like they can be against M1 killers.
I also don't mind ranged attacks personally.
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I agree the chances of spawning on the new map are too high. I don't want to constantly play the same map again and again, no matter if it's new or not. Not to mention I find the map to be a bit killer sided, so that doesn't help either.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732674#Comment_3732674
I'd say just rework BOS it to give a buff to Fly duration or Fly velocity cause I think fly needs more mobility
The only problem here is that it looks like they want to have one addon of a certain rarity for each spell. And Boots of Speed is the green addon for Mage Hand. But in general I would agree.
I also wouldn't mind if Mage Hand got a small basekit nerf though, have to say,
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@Atacus7 said:
In what world is a killer that wields four powers "balanced"? I did not play his PTB and in the three hours of games I've played against him, guess how many escapes? ZERO. While I will grant that it can take time to learn how to play against a new killer, I'm being put in games with people who clearly know what they are doing. Between the passive aura read, range hit through walls, pallet hand, , and flying ability he's definitely a challenging killer to verse. Too challenging. While some on here are saying he's too slow during his power, try playing survivor, and watch him absolutely cruze through any power use. Most of those range attack in my games spawn on top of very close to me, so stopping to crouch is literally a decision to get hit or get hit.
Nah he doesn't seem op to me so far. He might have 4 abilities, but they are all on a 38 second cooldown. And the abilities aren't that oppressive.
The only spell I can see being a bit too good is Mage Hand. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed the movement speed during that spell's cooldown a bit. But other than that he is completely fine.
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Mage Hand is definitely quite the dangerous ability. If you think Vecna will use Mage Hand, don't drop the pallet. That's the tip I can give you.
But I would argue that Vecna is one of the fair anti-loop killers that actually has counterplay. You do know you can crouch under his Flight of the Damned spell right?
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732335#Comment_3732335
i think the addons for mage hand eliminate this mind game though so i think the addons needs nerfs
You are right. Boots of Speed in particular need to be reworked in my opinion. Or at least nerfed noticeably.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732490#Comment_3732490
An A-tier killer that nobody plays.
Not many play Alien, but he is still a strong killer for sure.
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@OrangeBear said:
I've had a similar experience playing as him, using magic hand does seem to allow me to get hits. But i feel like it's too early to say that it guarantees hits. But they should keep a close eye on it for sure.
I definitely agree with them keeping an eye on Mage Hand. It definitely still has some counterplay, the question is just if it's enough? Or better said, if the situations in which survivors have counterplay are enough?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732370#Comment_3732370
A killer made fairer by being made weaker. Now how else is this called?
Oh yes, Chucky was also made ''fairer''.
Yes, Alien was made a bit weaker. But he is still an A tier killer, surely not a C tier killer. Same goes for Chucky.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732254#Comment_3732254
Unknown probably didn't but Alien did. This new Chucky is also nerfed with scamper changes. These killers also require specific set of addons most of the time.
They are map dependent killers who are between B and C tier, pretty much a typical pub-stomper stars who can perform only against poorly organized survivors and beginner / chill soloQ players.
I see Vecna as a candy-wrapped M1 killer who at moment will dominate inexperienced players but will struggle massively against more competent ones, let alone swfs. He will receive ''hotfixes'' within a standard 1 - 2 months period which will put him into a so-called ''good'' spot. In reality it will be another case where killer purchased on release plays and feels absolutely different than what it does after some time.
Alien simply was made a bit fairer by being punished a bit more for missing an M2. That and it made flame turrets a bit more viable, but that's it. Alien is still a strong killer.
And the same goes for Chucky. He is arguably stronger now according to some.
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This has not been my experience to be honest. Survivors just need a bit of distance to Vecna when reaching the pallet to participate in the mindgame of Mage Hand. If he is right behind the survivor, then yes, it's a free hit. But if the survivor has a bit of distance to Vecna, that's when the survivor can mindgame Mage Hand. I would argue the question here is whether the distance needed is too much or not.
If it is too much, I wouldn't mind a nerf, but reverting it seems too much. I think something like 3.28 or 3.08 m/s would be perfectly fine as well.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732240#Comment_3732240
Buffering by holding it. If he sees you throw it down, Mage Hand it up. If not, put it away.
The problem is if a survivor refuses to throw down a pallet, Vecna will force a loop and THEN Mage Hand. Which means best case scenario is Vecna screws up and you leave for another loop which isn’t likely.
Ah ok well that is the mindgame I am talking about. If you use Mage Hand after the survivor already threw down the pallet, chances are you used it to late. You have to use it while the survivor is throwing down the pallet.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732298#Comment_3732298
Yeah and you have the other side of the point being that the Mage Hand pallet pickup guarantees a hit since the survivor is slowed down after the pallet drop and can’t make another loop. This is not considering the overkill addon that makes it faster to pickup.
The pallet block was useless. Not the pickup. But now that both have the same speed, there’s nothing a survivor can do if Vecna is already caught up enough to begin using Mage Hand. Which is why Enduring is effective. And to remind you, you don’t even need Enduring, just use Mage Hand close enough without getting stunned and you can get about the same value.
And to be honest, I don’t think the point of the Killer was to pray you got Interloper specifically.
But that's the thing. If you think that Vecna will use Mage Hand on you while dropping the pallet, don't drop the pallet. That's the mindgame that people are talking about. You just need a bit of distance to Vecna.
Mage Hand surely still has counterplay, the question is just if it has enough counterplay, based on how much distance you need to have to Vecna. But if not, the devs can easily reduce the movement speed during Mage Hand's cooldown a bit.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732241#Comment_3732241
It is counterable. It is just a proper 50/50.
Either:
- The survivor drops the pallet
- The survivor keeps running
If the survivor drops the pallet, and the vecna guesses right, they land a hit. If they don't, the survivor gets some distance either through a late pickup with mage hand, or breaking the pallet.
If the survivor keeps running, and the vecna guesses right, they continue looping, and get closer to the survivor, maybe landing a hit if the survivor can't make it around the loop. If they guess wrong, they block the pallet, but now the survivor is further away, the vecna is slowed, and the survivor has plenty of time to get around the loop, or to another one.
For something on a 38 second cooldown, a 50/50 seems more than reasonable.
Well yes, that is kind of the mindgame that Mage Hand has, exactly. It just depens on how much distance the survivor has to Vecna when reaching the pallet whether the mindgame still applies or not. If Vecna is close to the survivor, then even blocking the pallet doesn't give the survivor enough distance to Vecna, however, if the survivor already has a bit of distance to Vecna upon reaching the pallet, that's when the mindgame applies.
The question in the end is, is the distance needed for Mage Hand to become a mind game or not ok or too much? If it's too much, they can just nerf the movement speed of Mage Hand's cooldown a bit.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732173#Comment_3732173
Chucky, Alien, Unknown.
All got conveniently ''fixed'' after a while and then ''rebalanced'' for fun experience. In reality they all became nerfed and now require specific set of addons in order to function at least on decent level.
Vecna is no different. If people begin to ''struggle'' against him for some reason this killer will get nerfed once again to the point where his pick rate will be very low. It's their marketing strategy that they have been following for few chapters already.
What nerfs did Unknown receive?
Also, neither Chucky nor Alien were nerfed to C tier. Not even close. They are both still very strong killers. And don't require very certain addons at all. So if Vecna gets the Alien or Chucky treatement, I'll have no problem with that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732211#Comment_3732211
Vecna is everything i expected from changes. ineffective when player knows what he is doing vs every ability and a pub-stomper when the player does not. the difference between ptb and now is that Vecna can punish poor play where as PTB, he could not punish poor play even when survivor made a mistake.
I don't see it. I definitely think he is still effective even if the survivor knows what he is doing, you just have to outplay and outmindgame the survivor.
And with 4 abilities, I would argue his skill floor isn't too low either.
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732211#Comment_3732211
It is definitely still counterable for sure, just harder. In regards to his mindgame when charging it, it is harder as they buffed his slowdown when charging so he loses a lot less distance
Yeah exactly. How much counterplay there is to Mage Hand is yet to be seen in my opinion, but there is some. If it's not quite enough, they can always quickly reduce the movement speed of his Mage Hand cooldown a bit.
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@FrenchBagels said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732211#Comment_3732211
He doesn’t get slowdown for the pull up either so he can just buffer Mage Hand. It really only works if he’s already super behind you but you’ll never really be that far off so long as he has fly.
I am not sure what you mean with buffer Mage Hand. Do you mean when he charges up his Mage Hand and holds it?
As far as I can tell, there is still a mindgame possible, as in, if Vecna uses Mage Hand, you do not want to throw down the pallet, and if he doesn't use Mage Hand, that's when you want to throw down the pallet. Because he wants to try and predict your move as well, using Mage Hand while you are throwing down the pallet. But for this mind game you do need a bit of distance to Vecna now, without the interloper item at least.
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But what if you just drop the pallet a bit earlier? So that he doesn't get stunned?
Honestly I think Mage Hand still has counterplay, it just depends on how much distance you have to Vecna when you reach the pallet. If you have a bit of distance to him, you can still participate in the Mage Hand mindgame that is similar to a Huntress mindgame. It's only when he is right behind you that he gets a free hit. That is without the interloper item of course. With the interloper item you need less distance to Vecna when reaching the pallet.