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This is not true. If Vecna is forced to use the Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet in order to get a hit, then Mage Hand will have a 50/50 mindgame, and I believe the upcoming nerf will achieve exactly that.
Because if Vecna has to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, he will have to predict whether the survivor will drop the pallet or not, which opens up the possibility of a mindgame.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736551#Comment_3736551
Flagging this
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736562#Comment_3736562
your heavily underestimating these nerfs this counterplay if his other tools are so strong like you say humor me and play 10 matches without using Mage hand you can use every other spell except MH Vecna is easily a high C low B tier killer and will become less popular and less picked then Singularity
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736728#Comment_3736728
DND is all about rng
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736564#Comment_3736564
lift is literally no different than a scamper situation
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736677#Comment_3736677
remove the skillchecks Dnd if you roll that 1 you should be punished just how DND works
If you just ignore one of his abilities completely then of course he won't be that strong. But no, even after the Mage Hand nerf Vecna will still be very strong, there is no reason to buff his other abilities.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737242#Comment_3737242
I mean, those kinds of hits are pretty rare, and also reactable if you're quick enough. 0.5s is within the span of human reaction time.
Compare how often you get these hits (like once per match TOPS) to how easy it is to dodge literally every single other hit from the skeletons.
The 0.5 seconds are just the time until they start flying. However they already have a hitbox much earlier. In order to dodge skeletons spawned on top of you you definitely need to predict that they will spawn on top of you, you can not react to that. Though personally I think that's fine, as counterplay is often based on prediction and not reaction.
But that is probably what is getting nerfed, if I had to take a guess. Hens made a video showcasing how powerful that can be.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737186#Comment_3737186
But it has. That is my point. Dont get me wrong, there are situations, where the power has little counterplay, but what else is a power supposed to do in certain situations?
Lets look at killers and their powers:
- Trapper: can shut down a loop with a trap making it unloopable. If survivor gets to a loop that is trapped without them knowing it, they go down.
- Wraith: bodyblocks you at a window and gets a hit because you cant make it somewhere.
- Nurse: has literally no counterplay if the player is on point. This not even being limited to certain situations. Its just in general.
- Doctor: negates the ability of a survivor to even vault or drop a pallet if done right also resulting in a hit.
- Bubba: pushes survivor one way at the pallet and then changes to the other side. With the current buffs, he will get a hit there.
- Pig: at certain pallets the survivor will 100% get hit by the ambush due to her speed and lack of collision.
- Deathslinger: just zone them until you get a hit.
- Demo: even worse than slinger
- Nemesis: just hits above the pallet
- Xeno: same as Nemesis, just worse because crouching does not work if Xeno plays it correctly
- Blight: dont even get me started (can break pallets in less than a second right now and is not killswitched)
- Hag: similar to trapper
- Knight: drops guard / if survivor is chased by the guard, the knight is almost guaranteed a healthstate.
- Skull merchant: a lot worse than knight
- Artist: not loopable with the exception of mindgaming a pallet. Very similar to mage hand.
- Wesker: can also zone but not as effectively
- Pyramid head: zoning and hitting through the dropped pallet while the survivoor drops it.
- Huntress: also mindgames - if pallet is dropped in her face, it results usually in a hit.
- Spirit: injured?
What I want to stress is, that powers are supposed to give you hits from time to time. Sometimes this has very little counterplay from the survivor side. Many killers have something like this in a lot of situations.
Vecna has a ton of different items that are supposed to help them against his spells. Mage hand can give Vecna in certain situations free hits. Im not denying that. However, if a power is not able to give you a hit at some point, then whats the reason behind it? Maybe its too strong right now? Could be. Is it maybe to early to say it? I definitely think so. I personally would give it 2-3 weeks and then see how it implemented itself.
Vecnas mage hand is the big talk of the town right now because hes new. Many people see him and have to go against it. This makes him higher priority than problems that should have higher priority (Blight, infinite on new map, tons of bugs on new map, …). This is at least my opinion.
Vecna has a super complex power. I dont expect the playerbase to get really good at countering him in literally days.
Saying that Vecna has as little counterplay as a nurse in genral is crazy to me.
We'll have to agree to disagree on Mage Hand. I think one can say by now that Mage Hand just doesn't have enough counterplay. And yes you are right, there are situations where survivors don't have counterplay against any killer, but with Mage Hand it's particularly noticeable in my opinion.
I think after the nerf Mage Hand will be in the perfect spot and that's it.
Also, Vecna definitely has more counterplay than Nurse because Mage Hand has such a long cooldown. I am just saying that Mage Hand has very little counterplay just like Nurse.
Personally I am just happy Mage Hand is getting a nerf, and just hope they don't nerf FoTD in any significant way.
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Nah if something is not quite balanced it needs to be balanced out. Simple as that. As Pulsar said, if you buy something to gain a competitive advantage, you shouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed somewhere down the road. And I doubt they overbuffed Vecna on purpose.
Vecna's Mage Hand clearly has barely any counterplay, so the nerf is definitely warranted.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737132#Comment_3737132
You said: "Definitely do not agree" What is it now?
I would argue it's similar to how they have no counterplay. I realise there are other killers with very little counterplay, but that doesn't mean it's fine for Mage Hand to have little to no counterplay.
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@JustAShadow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737123#Comment_3737123
It's really not that difficult to fit between skeletons to dodge them considering they have extremely small hitboxes. Also crouching makes the item to show them completely useless as you can always crouch dodge just from the sound cue.
I disagree, at close range it's too hard to dodge in between for the ability to be fair if the crouch counterplay got removed.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737126#Comment_3737126
So a nurse has more counterplay?
Nope, but Nurse is also completely broken.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737097#Comment_3737097
It's more counterplay than other killers have that are not even looked at.
Definitely do not agree. Not to mention just because some other killers have very little counterplay doesn't mean Vecna needs to be like that as well.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737116#Comment_3737116
And what happens then if you have it? The ability becomes useless?
This is Xeno all over again.
Nope, not at all. You'll still be able to get a hit against a survivor using the item, if you time Mage Hand well. It will just decrease the distance a survivor needs to have to Vecna when reaching a pallet to participate in a mind game, because it will counter blocking pallets a bit more effectively.
Not to mention, Xeno is far from useless just because of turrets. The turrets are the only thing that keep Xeno in check.
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@JustAShadow said:
Surely they are not nerfing Flight of the Damned insta-tech. Surely they are making it not crouchable, right?
I mean, from the wording of it it will most likely be some form of nerf. In my opinion FoTD is perfect the way it is now, it doesn't need any nerfs or buffs. I don't think it should be uncrouchable though, unless they also implement some compensation nerfs to FoTD.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737086#Comment_3737086
So the magic items don't exist?
Yes they do. But they shouldn't be a requirement to have any chance of counterplaying a certain ability. Mage Hand should have some form of counterplay without the item as well.
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Yeah this definitely is a post I disagree with. Solo survivor can be rough, no doubt, but killer isn't easy if you go against good survivors. And the new killers they release aren't all incredibly easy to pick up. If you get stomped by someone who has very little experience with killer as an experienced survivor, that is on you or your team.
Also, killers perks aren't better than survivor perks in my opinion. Both sides have some very good perks, and a lot of bad perks.
When it comes to maps, BHVR has been doing a great job in my opinion. Haddonfield and Forgotten Ruins are an exception to this, Haddonfield is just killer sided and Forgotten Ruins has problems for both sides.
Mage Hand is currently overtuned, but it's already confirmed that it will be getting a nerf that will allow survivors to have some counterplay against that ability.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736817#Comment_3736817
I would need to record gameplay to show what I mean. Ive seen many survivors play around it pretty well. Especially interconnected pallets work very well against mage hand.
No I am pretty sure I know what you mean. But again, if the survivor is close enough to stun Vecna, Vecna can just block the pallet instead and then get a hit.
The counterplay you suggest does work on tiles that break line of sight, I admit that, because Vecna won't be able to know if the survivor kept on running or is waiting for the pallet stun. But that to me is not enough counterplay.
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@supersonic853 said:
Well. What did we expect.They always go further. People like me were find with the mage hand nerf because he did need it. But really a power that can be easily crouched needing a nerf? It's already barely usable In some cases.
Couldn't agree more. Mage Hand needs a nerf absolutely, but FoTD is perfect the way it is now. I fear after the change you won't be able to spawn FoTD on top of survivors anymore, but that would be a shame since that too has counterplay, survivors just have to predict that Vecna will spawn the skeletons on top of them.
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@radiantHero23 said:
Well…. It was fun while it lasted. I guess the magic items that make the survivor see Vecnas aura / see Vecnas spells / literally invisible / tps to the other side of the map, ending the chase are not strong enough to warrant a power that can be crouched and dodged.
But hey. Lets first see how they want to nerf a killer that most people would not even put in high tier.
Pretty sure there are quite a few people that would put Vecna in A tier.
The Mage Hand nerf is absolutely necessary, I am just worried about the changes to FoTD, that ability seems perfect to me the way it is now.
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The changes to Mage Hand are very good, and absolutely needed. Right now, Mage Hand is too strong and leaves the survivor with little to no counterplay. I also hope they will nerf the Boots of Speed addon, which is too good at giving killers free hits by just blocking pallets.
However, not sure what they will change about FoTD, that ability seems perfect to me and shouldn't be changed in any way or form. I don't see how FoTD is too difficult to counter.
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@Hunkulese said:
Both of your takes are wrong. The mage hand nerf is actually a buff against good survivors. The addon already shows that because by lifting pallets faster, survivors are able to drop the pallet to stun Vecna. Having to crouch only counters the power against bad Vecnas. You slow down when you crouch and lose distance. A good Vecna will use it to guarantee hits because if you crouch, they'll just whack you.
It's definitely not a buff though. The longer pick up animation will help survivors get around the loop again before vecna catches up, unless vecna uses mage hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet. The nerf will simply allow mage hand to actually be mindgamed. That is better in my eyes than the small chance of being able to drop the pallet again before vecna reaches the survivor.
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736826#Comment_3736826
Killers that need buffs: Ghostface, Singularity, Doctor, Freddy, arguably Myers and Trapper.
Killers that need full or partial reworks and/or addon changes: Myers, Nurse.
Killers that need to be toned down: Skull Merchant, Hillbilly, arguably Unknown and Blight (again)Everyone else is fine. If they're A, B, or C tier, they are balanced and fine, and need possibly only light tweaks. If they are S or D tier, they need significant help. This has always been my opinion concerning tierlists.
I don't necessarily disagree with every killer here, but in general I agree that a lot of killers are in a good spot, and only some need buffing or nerfing.
I personally think Singularity and Doctor don't really need any buffs, or any major buffs. Especially Singu can be pretty oppressive when played well.
I also don't find Unknown to be op or anything, but I agree that Billy needs some small nerfs.
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I definitely agree that the new map was way too much boosted during the first few days, very frustrating having almost every second match on that map. Especially considering it's problems.
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729526#Comment_3729526
I'd even argue as a low Tier Killer the game is pretty OK for Killer right now. When I can run Myers and Ghostface with the right perks and keeping my chases as short as possible, and still do moderately okay as long as no meta is in play - even win - the game is in a fine state for Killer. If anything, a few Killers still need some buffs, and others maybe need to be adjusted to be a touch more fair. It's not unbalanced at all.
The game is actually really well balanced if you cut the meta out. Chaos Shuffle proved this. I was getting more varied and even games both sides than ever before. The issue isn't Killer strength, the issue is this handful of meta perks both sides that need adjustment.
Killers got their meta reduced recently, Survivors got SOME meta changed. Now it's time to address the other aspects of Survivor meta and balance those out. Do that and buff the Killers that have a Killrate well below target (and aren't already strong like Nurse), and we'll be in a great spot.
Yes I agree. Low tier killers definitely could use some buffs, at least some of them, but quite a few killers are already in a decent spot.
I do get that gens can go very quick though, it's something one can struggle with. But most teams just aren't efficient enough on gens to have no chance against them as killer, and the game can't be balanced around the top 1% of players.
I also do believe there are a few killers that need to be toned down just a bit. Nurse obviously, but in my opinion they also overbuffed Hillbilly slightly.
I do hope that we get an update with a bunch of perk buffs in a future update though, because Chaos shuffle really proves the yearning for a more varied meta.
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That doesn't really work most of the time because once Vecna is close enough to the survivor for the survivor to stun Vecna, he can simply block the pallet instead, and still get a hit against the survivor, because the movement speed penalty of Mage Hand isn't enough for the survivor to get around the pallet loop another time.
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Vecna's Flight of the Damned really isn't a problem, it has enough counterplay. If it slowed Vecna down too much the ability would be completely useless. I think the ability is in a perfect spot the way it is now.
Mage Hand is the one ability that is too good at the moment, but it's confimred that that ability is getting a nerf very soon.
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@Rogue11 said:
Maybe they should stop knee-jerk overbuffing killers from the PTB after 20 people play him in matches with no matchmaking and zero idea how their powers work and whine about them being too weak.
I mean, he really was way too weak on the ptb. But people simply quickly figured out that Mage Hand is a bit overtuned, so it's good BHVR is reacting so fast to this problem.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736562#Comment_3736562
Maybe he suggest too many buffs but vecna is gonna be lot weaker after mage hand nerf. What they could do is to buff FOTD it's too easy to avoid and crouch. Mage hand had enough counters already expect the enduring stuff. Vecna has big cooldown on his spells so at least some of them could be bit reduced.
He is not going to be a lot weaker after that small nerf to Mage Hand. He will just have some fair counterplay on the survivor side, if the survivor has enough distance to Vecna upon eaching a pallet. But it's not the biggest deal. He is still going to be a strong killer after the nerf, likely still A tier.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735816#Comment_3735816
There are going to be situations in the game where you are going to lose no matter what you do. That isn't a problem with the game. That is just how games work. In general, however, greeding pallets and baiting out mage hand will work against Vecna. Just because it doesn't ALWAYS work doesn't mean it needs to be changed. If every killer had counterplay that just always worked no matter how close the killer is to you or how the killer reacts then every killer would be D tier.
Also boots of speed are actual garbage. 2 seconds of 5% haste is completely worthless except in the most specific cases. Especially in a loop where can't even hug it as tight as the survivor can.No it really doesn't work at all. Only against Vecnas that aren't experienced enough yet to know that you can just currently react to the pallet drop instead of predicting it. That's the problem. How do you bait out an ability that can just be used on reaction instead of prediction? Once the nerf hits live, then you will be able to bait out Mage Hand, because Vecna will be forced to use Mage Hand by predicting when the survivor will drop the pallet.
Even with the nerf, you will still be able to get guaranteed hits by blocking the pallet if you are close enough to the survivor when they reach the pallet. But that I would argue is ok since it has a 38 second cooldown. However, right now, even if the survivor has a fair amount of distance to Vecna, they have no counterplay, because predropping the pallet doesn't work since Vecna can just react to the drop instead of predicting it, getting a guaranteed hit anyways. With the nerf coming, Vecna will have to use Mage Hand on prediction, which will open up possible mind games with Mage Hand as long as the survivor has a bit of distance to Vecna.
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@Zaydin said:
Vecna is fine. People just aren't used to playing against him and haven't learned how to deal with his kit/addons.
Not stopping BHVR from hitting him with a knee jerk nerf just like they did with the Xeno and its tail strike.
BHVR is incredibly biased in survivors favor and bends over backwards to placate them.
Dude the fact anybody thinks that BHVR favors survivor is honestly hilarious. Especially considering the 60% kill rate they are going for. Are people like you really for real?
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@radiantHero23 said:
Mage hand upsides:
- lifts a pallet granting a free hit more often than not
- holds a pallet in place
Mage hand downsides:
- can be countered by magical item
- is mindgameble
- recource is not gone from the map and can be used again.
Nerf is in my opinion not needed.
How is Mage Hand currently mindgameable?
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@Akumos said:
Nerfing mage hand honestly makes zero sense. The ENTIRE POINT of the ability is to get a free hit at pallets. If you can't do that, it literally serves ZERO purpose at all lol. If you're going to make it a totally pointless ability to use then replace it with something you think is more skilled but can be useful, so dumb.
The point isn't to just give you a free hit. That is just terrible design. You should have to mind game a survivor at a pallet, and the upcoming nerf will achieve exactly that. As long as the survivor has enough distance, you will have to mind game the survivor, trying to predict whether the survivor will drop the pallet or not. That's how it should be.
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No need to make Vecna completely broken. And Vorpal Sword basekit for Mage Hand? That would just completely nullify the nerf to Mage Hand.
The Mage Hand nerf is fine, it will just allow survivors to have a bit more counterplay against it, but Mage Hand will still be a strong tool. And his other tools are also strong, no need to buff them. He is still going to be an A tier killer.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736099#Comment_3736099
So did lot of testing with my friend:
Mage hand
If survivor is ready on pallet, they can drop it quite fast when they get on other side, so you have to be very close to them (that might actually improved when lifting up pallet is slower)Also if they start vaulting animation, then pallet will be lifted after it and they can drop it immediately (not sure if that's not a bug). I am not able to attack (after casting a spell) faster then they can drop the pallet.
Flight of the damned:
There is no way you can do it on reaction, so you definetly need to do it in advance.
I have tried to spawn them as soon I saw item disappear (survivor is going to vault) and on fast vault they can easily crouch.
Basically the range, where I was able to do it on reaction, I am able to just lunge attack instead…
Btw skeletons are not able to hit survivors working on gens and healing… Sorry, but that just shouldn't work. I would definetly want to be able surprise survivors with it. What is even the point of that range addon otherwise?What survivor can do is when they see you prepare skeletons, they can crouch and then vault. They are even able to medium vault, if I am too close to them (because they can start vaulting faster) and I am able to only watch…
So it is not that good even for this.
For skeletons, I would reduce delay before you can attack. It doesn't make sense for it to be so limited, when there are 2 counter plays.
Fly:
Completely useless for windows and pallets, because survivor is able to vault back and I am not able to attack.Ohtofu thinks that this change is a buff to Mage Hand lmao. You just explained why, but in general, the change will be a nerf. I would expect Mage Hand to be not that good when survivors slide over a pallet, and I think that's fine.
No you can't react to survivors dropping a pallet. You do have to predict that. That's what allows survivors to have some counterplay as well. If you could just react to survivors dropping the pallet and then hit them with FoTD, the ability would be too strong.
But the range you can use this is more than your lunge range, that's for sure.
They also aren't able to medium vault without getting hit by a basic attack. I have often forced survivors to crouch before a vault and then get a hit against them because they had to medium vault.
And regarding fly, if you manually cancel the fly before a window, but in a way that you still vault the window or pallet, you are able to block the window or vault. You just need to time the cancel perfectly.
Personally I do not think his abilities need any buffs. I think Mage Hand getting the small nerf is fine, and then he'll be in a perfect spot. Except for Boots of Speed, those need a nerf as well.
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735803#Comment_3735803
Rather weak, lol. Sorry, but anyone with enough gamesense said that mage hand is a lose-lose-scenario and could become a real issue. everybody said that it cant be buffed at all, but nothing new that devs ignore significant feedback.
No they didn't. I am sorry but are you for real or are you just trolling me? It was never a lose-lose situation on the ptb, and won't be anymore either once they implement the nerf that is planned. And there were so many people saying that it was too weak on the ptb.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736052#Comment_3736052
You sound like you need to play more killer to get a feel for it. Gen control was annoying as a survivor so they asked for nerfs and they got them. But now killers have no motive to leave the hook. Why try to patrol gens when the tools to do so are so weak now? It does encourage more aggressive and toxic killer play and Sabo buff encourages more bully squad behavior from survivors. This last year really seems to be a coordinated effort to make killers and survivors hate each other.
Meh I am a killer main. I do get the frustration with gen times sometimes, but I don't think it's that bad either. Tunneling and camping are indeed easy ways out to win a match. But of course, I am not completely against some basekit gen regression buffs.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736074#Comment_3736074
So basically block on god pallet, or hope survivor will drop the pallet in front of me.
Nea screwed it, shouldn't wait there.
Lifting when he wants to vault is interesting one, I will test this one and let you know how it went, but I don't think it's going to work if survivor is standing on pallet. You simply won't reach it and survivor just drop it again.
What no the pallet at 3:46 isn't a god pallet? It's a normal pallet loop.
Now regarding the pick up while the survivor is vaulting, that I do not know about either. I can see that not working however, as you mentioned.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735853#Comment_3735853
That's the greed part. On most short loops you will manage to run around and just drop the pallet after it, even more so if you have boots against it.
Feel free to show me clips, how you get value out of holding pallets on anything but god pallets, which are usually long enough for you to catch up.
I will be more than happy to learn how to use it properly.
But on clip you showed me, Kate had option to just running. If she didn't stop to drop pallet she would reach the window, or loop that rock. That was simply missplay and nothing else.
Here is a good video that shows how the blocking of pallets is very strong even at normal loops. Go to 3:46 to see what I mean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucm7VEvxseI -
@HexHuntressThighs said:
All Gen perks got nerfed and SABO got an insane buff across the board. Very limited incentive to hook survivors right now honestly.
The gen defense nerfs really aren't enough to make tunneling and camping a necessity. People just use these strategies because they are an easy way out for a win. The only thing that might be too much are the sabo changes.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735171#Comment_3735171
Look at 6:39 and how close he is to the pallet. 8:48 is how your suppose to counter-play the ability. this is one survivor that does counter-play correctly. you see how far he drops the pallet ahead and then makes back around loop. You have to calculate the distance needed to make back around loop preemptively. If Vecna had boot of speed add-on, he would need to drop it 1-2 second earlier which would be 8:46-8:47.
This is why mage hand does not need nerfs. survivor need to adapt and learn it is gameplay. the killer is new. the killer players already mastered how to use ability but survivor have yet to learn how to counter it.
Incorrect. The only reason the survivor is able to counterplay at 8:48 is because they have the interloper item. Otherwise they would have gotten hit as well.
I get that if you have a huge amount of distance, you can predrop the pallet, but the distance is just too much to be reasonable, in most cases you will not have that distance to Vecna. Especially considering Vecna also has Fly as an ability.
So yes, Mage Hand does need the nerf and it is getting it deservedly.
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I couldn't agree more with you. Vecna will still be really fun and satisfying, only now you will actually have to outplay the survivor using Mage Hand by using it while the survivor drops the pallet, and not after the pallet is dropped, granting you a free hit on reaction.
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@DerpedByDave said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735858#Comment_3735858
Im not saying he takes no skill at all, I'm saying the effort you need to put in to play vecna top tier is way less effort or skill needed compared to most other killers imo.
Even his flight of dammed is broken when you think about it, it's like having a loaded huntress hatchet but moving at 4.6ms.(yeah there's a longish cooldown but then you just switch to mage hand)
I heavily disagree with FoTD. That ability has enough counterplay to be fair for both sides in my opinion. I don't see how it's like having a loaded huntress hatchet, considering the spawn time of the skeletons, and the fact that the ability is crouchable.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735853#Comment_3735853
That's the greed part. On most short loops you will manage to run around and just drop the pallet after it, even more so if you have boots against it.
Feel free to show me clips, how you get value out of holding pallets on anything but god pallets, which are usually long enough for you to catch up.
I will be more than happy to learn how to use it properly.
But on clip you showed me, Kate had option to just running. If she didn't stop to drop pallet she would reach the window, or loop that rock. That was simply missplay and nothing else.
I have gotten more than enough hits by just blocking pallets at loops if I was close enough to the survivor when they reached the pallet. The movement speed penalty of Mage Hand isn't enough for survivors to make it around the loop another time. Only if the survivor has the interloper item, that's when the survivor can maybe reach the pallet again. It's even worse with the Boots of Speed Addon, which 100% also still needs to be nerfed.
I don't have any clips at the moment, but if I see some, and remember, I'll post them.
Kate could have reached the window, that's true, but in most cases you don't have that kind of setup. She would have had to keep looping the pallet loop and then Vecna would have just been able to block the pallet and that's it.
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@Hannacia said:
I like Vecna i really do, but i am starting to notice some issues. Mage hand. Its really hard to dodge. Yeah it wont last long but trying to survive another loop will result a hit or down. Fact that he can just stop a pallet or raise a pallet and walk through with almost 0 cooldown is a problem.
Second problem i have is his flight of the damned. The skill itself is fine. I have no issues of killers having ranged attacks, but i have an issue that when he uses it in chase you eather crouch and get hit by Vecna himself or don't crouch and take the hit from the skulls. There is no avoiding being hit. This is while in chase. Off chase that attack is easy to dodge.
So i'm not sure if he's just another W killer who forces you to run forward until you go down. His cooldowns are long yes but he technically has 2 skills that will give him 2 hits no matter what in chase and me personally i am not a fan of hits you have no way to avoid.
Mage Hand is a bit overtuned, but FoTD is fine in my opinion. There are more than enough situations in which crouching to dodge FoTD doesn't result in a basic attack hit. And if you try to dodge in between the skeletons, chances are you lose less distance by doing so.
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Saying Vecna takes no skill is quite the exaggeration. Mage Hand is a bit overtuned at the moment, I agree, but other than that he is completely fine. And luckily Mage Hand is getting a nerf very soon (I am hoping for today).
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I have seen the video, and it makes no sense. It's still going to be much better than in the ptb, because in the ptb Vecna got slowed down horribly when he used Mage Hand, and none of that is being brought back. It's just a small time increase for the pallet pick up animation so survivors have a bit of counterplay, the ability will still be strong.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735812#Comment_3735812
Watch this video at 6:35. Demi clearly reacts to the Kate dropping the pallet, so what exactly was the Kate supposed to do in this situation? Because if she didn't drop the pallet, Vecna would just catch up to her at the loop, and then he could block the pallet, getting a hit against her like that.
Greed the pallet and try to stun the killer by any means possible (in future update)
That's not any different to Nemesis, or Huntress. Every killer in correct situation has moment when survivor just get hit/downed.
Survivors can see Vecna is ready to cast mage hand. What is supposed to be unfair about this? It's no different to other killers.
Btw Pyramid head is using his power even if you stun him. (Unless they changed it without me noticing)
And how exactly is the survivor supposed to stun Vecna if he just blocks the pallet once he has catched up to the survivor enough?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734894#Comment_3734894
there are no situations where survivor cannot do anything. the situations where the survivor gets hit immediately after mage hand activation are survivor mistakes in playing poorly vs mage hand.
I am not sure how much nerf will do but i do not think the nerf needed to happen. this is jump-start nerf before survivor has adapted to the ability.
How so? What exactly can survivors do when Vecna has Mage Hand up?
In my opinion the nerf is definitely needed, and I am happy that BHVR listened to feedback so quickly.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735507#Comment_3735507
This new change makes mage hand worst that the ptb version, so you should not even worry about it existing in the first place after the update.
Absolutely not true. In the ptb, Vecna had to endure a massive slowdown after using Mage Hand, none of that is being reverted.
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@Lost_Boy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735782#Comment_3735782
Never played PTB so does this mean using mage hand will allow a survivor to complete the loop and get back to safety at 0.5 seconds?
No don't worry, it won't. If you time Mage Hand right, you will still get a hit against the survivor, you just have to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, and not afterwards. Not to mention if you are close enough to a survivor when they reach a pallet, you can just block the pallet and get a free hit that way.
In the ptb, the biggest problem was the insane slowdown Vecna had to endure after using Mage Hand, but they aren't reverting any of that.
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@Merciless_Killer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735171#Comment_3735171
There is hella counterplay to mage hand. For one, don't pre drop the pallet or try to camp it when he has mage hand available. Greed it until he uses the block and run back around and drop it when it runs out. You can bait a drop to get him to use it to pick up the pallet only to have it be blocked instead, and run back around and drop it, etc.
You can't sit there and try to do the same thing you do against every m1 killer with no anti-loop in the game and then say there isn't any counterplay.See that's not true. Once Vecna catches up to the survivor enough, blocking the pallet will result in a free hit. The slowdown vecna has to endure is not enough for the survivor to then make it around the loop another time. Unless the survivor has the interloper item. And it's even worse if Vecna has the Boots of Speed addon, which also still needs a nerf or rework.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735184#Comment_3735184
Also, if you predict that a survivor will drop the pallet they are running at, you can drop FoTD on top of their heads while they are in the pallet animation to get a hit.
So the survivor is not playing based on current situation / not looking behind them. This is the effect of bad survivor. Otherwise I can see you casting it...
I would argue his skill ceiling isn't that low. There are definitely timings to get right with him.
What is supposed to be difficult? You don't need any fast movement, or precise.
You don't need completely different playstyle compare to normal M1 killer.
Vecna is just M1 killer most of the times. Only thing you need to know are situations when to use your power and don't even try in any other situation. That's like Clown...
And even when it works the effect is not that good with really high cooldown.
I am happy for you, that you enjoy him so far. But I am not interested in killer, where I know for 100% I am going to get very frustrated gameplay from time to time.
His chase is highly limited, his skill ceiling is medium at best, his 1v4 is also bad.
So the survivor is not playing based on current situation / not looking behind them. This is the effect of bad survivor. Otherwise I can see you casting it...
Not true. Charge time for Flight of the Damned is 0.2 seconds, and spawn time is 0.5 seconds. Survivors have to predict that Vecna will be using FoTD, because otherwise they will be stuck in animation and will get hit. They can't react to it. You just have to time FoTD perfectly.
I would argue timing his FoTD can have quite the skill ceiling. His macro play with his 4 abilities play into effect here as well, just like being able to switch between spells as fast as posible to always have the right spell up. I know I lost out on a few hits because I didn't switch quick enough to Mage Hand or FoTD when I needed to. But again, his skill ceiling isn't the highest among killers.
It's also fine if you are not interested in this killer, no killer can be for everyone. But that doesn't mean he should be unfair to verse.
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735512#Comment_3735512
Nerf basically removes the only situation when there is nothing survivor can do →killer with enduring just walks through pallet.
For some reason they want to nerf the duration too, so lifting pallet is just pointless on most loops, unless survivor is in dropping animation.
Thing is, it would work on a god pallet, but do you really want to return god pallet to survivors?
For some reason they want to nerf the duration too, so lifting pallet is just pointless on most loops, unless survivor is in dropping animation.
That's the point. You should have to predict when the survivor will drop the pallet and then use Mage Hand, because otherwise, if you can just react to the survivor dropping the pallet, there is no counterplay for survivors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Ni-mDlQQWatch this video at 6:35. Demi clearly reacts to the Kate dropping the pallet, so what exactly was the Kate supposed to do in this situation? Because if she didn't drop the pallet, Vecna would just catch up to her at the loop, and then he could block the pallet, getting a hit against her like that.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735147#Comment_3735147
You have survivor perks, you can get items and you know exactly what killer's power is. This is also the only ability that allows killer actually land hits in the loop. Yet this is not enough.
Apparently you will be content when Vecna becomes an M1 killer who can't get anyone downed for 5 gens because everything he can do has a 100% reliable counter. Instead of trying to learn how to play against this killer and adapt you wish to see the only tool of the killer nerfed. It's the reason why buying any new content is stupid - a bunch of people will cry or complain that something is too strong and won't stop doing so until developers cater to their will. There goes their money, good job.
What are you talking about? I started maining Vecna, and I main killer in general. I just want him to be fair for survivor as well. Most people will still be able to enjoy Vecna after the small nerf he is getting. Just not people like you for whatever reasons.