Xernoton
Xernoton
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353312#Comment_3353312
i was using those examples because they have power addons that cause killer instinct or aura reading in their kit or some other similar mechanic like doctor’s clones.
my point is:
adding anti killer instinct would make the perk worse not better. Killer instinct isn’t that big of a deal to counter even without perks. Base kit survivors can do it. But aura reading is a whole different thing. And when you’re burning tokens on killer instinct you’re leaving yourself open to an aura reading that tells the killer who you are, what you’re doing, and if you’ve noticed or not that the killer is headed your way. Killer instinct is just a flashing hex.
Again though. Doctor has nothing that is affected by Distortion. He has no aura reading addons and no killer instinct. His illusions don't trigger Distortion and since his Static Blast already makes it risky to stay in his TR for too long that wouldn't change too much for this killer specifically. Billy has absolutely nothing that gives him info either other than his perk Tinkerer and that triggers on gens not survivors. So that wouldn't affect him at all.
Don't get me wrong I won't argue that Distortion wouldn't be weaker with this change because 45 seconds is quite a long time. But I don't see why you'd use these killers as an example.
I think Distortion is absolutely fine as it is. In the right hands it's a strong perk that denies one of the most valuable things for any killer: Information. In the wrong hands the killer probably won't find you immediately and that's about it.
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@wydyadoit said:
Dredge, spirit, doctor, clown, billy, and so many killer perks would basically destroy this new version you’ve came up with. You would lose the perk and it’d be an empty perk slot in less than 2 gens.
Aight. Because Billy, Doctor and Clown have so many ways to trigger killer instinct.
Distortion doesn't work too well against Doctor anyway because his static blast makes you scream. That is not blocked by Distortion.
I really don't see how that'd be a problem with Billy. Is it because most Billies use BBQ? That'd make little to no difference. If you can hide for 30 seconds in Billy's TR than you can do it for 45 seconds as well. Also this would be more of an issue with BBQ then, no?
Same with Clown. You could run Tattoo's Middle Finger but that is an iri addon and again it would make little to no difference.
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Nah, I think Distortion is fine the way it is. There aren't that many ways to trigger killer instinct and it was specifically designed to work when auras don't.
I would be ok with it blocking Wesker's killer instinct because he is strong enough to deal with it but on Legion and Sadako that'd be quite mean.
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@Geiz said:
I find it pretty fun how every main killer laughed at the DH rework, but now here we are.
I think people here are just considering the fact that "most used perks" are basically a 100% guarantee of winning so it needs to be killed - other exhaustion perks are not fun to play with and literally takes 0 skill to use them. What kind of skill takes to use SB? You literally need to run when you know the killer is coming to you so you get some distance - same goes for Lithe and BL.
The reason DH is so popular even if it does not work 100% of time, it is basically because it is a fun chase perk to use unlike other perks.
The example that Otz showed on Twitter is just when two experienced players' worlds collide - the experienced survivor knows you won't M1 right away cause you're an experienced killer, so sometimes the "wait it out" will happen. It is not even 100% effective, really. What kind of nerf people here want to DH? Why can't address toolboxes, BNP, hyperfocus, useless perks and so on?
Speak for yourself. At the time I said I was happy about DH being looked at but I still felt (and openly said so) like it was the final boss of DBD, so killing it once would only reveal its true form. That is what we're seeing now. The true form of DH.
DH is only fun for the survivor. The killer that has to play around it every single game on most survivors doesn't have much fun dealing with it. Even when you pull off the most "skilled" DH play of all time it doesn't change the fact that this perk alone is the reason you can extend the chase in this way. After all you wouldn't DH, if the chase wasn't technically over. SB comes at the start of the chase or the survivor has to be completely insane to manage it mid chase and use perfectly. Balanced Landing is way more situational. Lithe can be forced out of the way and you can still hit a survivor during the vault, which makes the extra speed from Lithe much less valuable.
The argument that DH adds another layer of skill to the game is very weak. What the about the killer's skill? They outplayed the survivor before to even get into the position where the survivor has to use it. Now the survivor uses DH and all of a sudden that skill is meaningless. A perk that can be used in ways that have no counterplay whatsoever (DH on reaction), which isn't all that uncommon anymore, is not fun to go against and never will be. Neither is losing the game because you have to deal with 3x12 health states.
Otz's example is something that happens in nearly every game, mind you. The majority of killers is back to waiting and baiting out the DH in the hopes that the survivor can't DH on reaction, while survivors will spin and hope to bait out a hit. How is this acceptable counterplay? Both hope that their opponent messes up and that's it. Maybe if DH was only seen in the top 5% of MMR that'd be true but DH is everywhere. Even in low MMR.
The reason why so many people despise DH is simple. It's the perk that defines DBD. It has been the most used and strongest perk in the game for 6 years (with a short period of DH usage rate dropping to 3rd place). You might as well call the game Dead by Dead Hard because that's really what it is. As a killer, if you're power gives visual and audible clues to the survivor you shouldn't use it when they're injured or you're guaranteed to give them a third health state. That is one of the first things a new killer has to learn. Absolutely great.
Multiple things can be a problem at once, you know? BNPs, Hyperfocus etc. being problematic don't make DH any less horrible. Also with DH out of the way (something that heavily depends on the user) we might be able to better address other issues as well.
There is a suggestion in this post from @BenOfMilam that'd make DH a much more healthy perk while still keeping it strong and useful. I'd be fine with that as well. But one thing is for sure, DH should not stay the way it is.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353050#Comment_3353050
I mean what do you expect....look how as a community we came up with good ways to adjust Eruption to make it a better perk for both sides to make everyone happy but then all of a sudden BHVR brings out the Nuked version of it.....
As a community we can voice our concerns make suggestions but at the end of the day they can and will ignore us to go with what they think is the right way to go. Does that work....yes sometimes it does with no backlash but other times no it fails miserably.
Agreed. I wasn't arguing against that at all. I just said that much of our feedback is voiced rather passionate.
When that whole cheater problem peaked and they finally told us their plans to fight it I really thought they learned that they need to communicate better. It seems I was mistaken. Clearly, they still try to avoid uncomfortable discussions.
The Eruption rework is hardly one of their brightest moments. There was enough feedback to gather that people didn't like the Incapacited status effect, so I'm absolutely fine with that being removed. However, their poor excuse for nerfing the regress and adding a new, pointless, slugging incentivising effect is what I don't like. At least have the guts to admit that you killed the perk instead of pretending that it's still useful or even good. That or design different versions, let us test them and then decide which one gets to stay.
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For the people is great perk, actually. High risk, high reward. The reason we don't see it more often is that it requires careful and somewhat strategic gameplay as opposed to the reckless 1v1 play style many survivors prefer.
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They got tons of feedback about every part of the chapter. From her lore, her visuals and sound design all the way to her power people have explained their issues with the Skull Merchant. Sometimes we, as a community, are very passionate and come across as harsh when voicing our oppinions but that is because we care and we want this game and BHVR to do good. We all know that the devs can do way better than this mess of a chapter and that is why there is so much critique.
BHVR have never been the best at communication but how hard can it be to say something like: "We have gathered a lot of feedback and are currently looking into it. You can expect some changes to X in the near future." ?
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I rarely dodge lobbies. But sometimes I simply can't be bothered to play against 4 medkits / toolboxes. Very rarely I see survivors that intimidate me in the lobby like P100 Aces. These guys are scary af. Multiple of these guys in the same lobby and I might dodge.
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@stvnhthr said:
But DH gives killer more downs and hooks than the killer's own perks. DH needs fixed, but the current mindset at Behaviour is we want more killers, we want less survivors getting points or escaping. DH needs fixed, then we could actually see how it effects games.
How do you figure? Extending the chase by pressing "E" puts the killer behind schedule, hindering them to get a down and slow the game so they can go for more chases. Meaning longer chase times = less time in game = less chases overall = less downs.
The only situation where I'd see DH ending chases quicker is when survivors get cocky because of their favorite exhaustion perk. This is also a situation that these people's teammates should be more than happy to see removed.
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@mr_Beast_Artist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321987#Comment_3321987
good idea how to motivate the killer. After the killer hangs a survivor, a bonus is imposed on him for 20 seconds - he needs to kick the generator and he regresses by 10%, but if the time runs out, then 25% of the progress will be applied to all generators.
This again affects toxic campers at hooks that ruin the game, but normal and good killers will have an additional bonus / mechanic.
I see a problem with the punishment. You have only 20 seconds to kick the next gen and if you don't all gens gain 25% progress. That means you leave the hook and no matter what happens you need to kick the next gen immediately. You can't go and pick up / set up any traps as Trapper or Hag, make a detour to reload as Trickster or Huntress, get some stalk as Myers or Ghostface or even go for the next chase because if you do you pretty much throw the game. None of these things involve "toxic camping" as you call it but they still get punished. Also what if the killer hooks a survivor right next to a gen? Then they'd kick that and continue camping.
Don't get me wrong, I want some incentive for killers to actually leave the hook but I'm affraid this is not a "one size fits all".
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You know that this would actually nerf the perk even more, right? Every successful skill check saves you a bit of time after all. Your suggestion would also nerf possible synergy with other perks.
That would come as a nerf to Coulrophobia as well. Wouldn't change much, since nobody runs Coulrophobia but still...
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@BenOfMilam said:
Dead Hard is probably the only exhaustion perk that legitimately feels unfair to go against.
If I see a survivor boost away with Sprint Burst, Balanced, or Lithe I'm like "aight, that's fair." But swinging into a Dead Hard always feels like I got cheated out of a victory in a chase.
...not that I actually have too much trouble with the perk in general. The mind-games around baiting it out can be fun, but doing it like ten to twelve times a game makes me really hate going against Dead Hard.
There's actually nothing you can do to make Dead Hard more fair or balanced, short of complete redesign. The concept of "you can parry a hit / become invincible for half a second" in a game where you fighting tooth and nail for something as meager as half a meter of distance is simply too strong.
Honestly? Dead Hard should give your allies a speed boost when you take a protection hit. It fits thematically, and would still be a strong perk.
I hadn't considered something like this before but I love the idea. Another anti-tunnel perk that would even be strong and probably hard to abuse because you throw yourself in harms way.
I support this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352587#Comment_3352587
Okay, I wasn't sure up until this point if you meant literally waiting it out, or you were being hyperbolic in referring to baiting it out. Neither's bad, I just wasn't sure which one it is, until now.
So: You don't just stand there and wait. You flick your camera upwards if that's all you have, or you fake your power animation if that'd work- Wraith is the best for this, but there's a number of other killers that can do some kind of animation in addition to the camera trick that'd bait out Dead Hard from twitchy survivors, and that show non-twitchy survivors you'll try and bait it out- which means you can then hit them earlier to take them by surprise.
That's why I don't really like the idea of even reworking Dead Hard, let alone nuking it. There's actual interaction in the way this perk functions after its rework in 6.1.0, and I don't like the idea of taking away depth from the game like that. If DH is being used outside of the scenarios where it's actually a problem, the ones we both agree on like the pallet game, there's actually some back and forth in the way both parties engage with the perk. The only other Exhaustion perk that's true of is Head On, and that perk is basically just a meme.
I do remember people complaining about NOED. They were wrong then about it rewarding bad killers for losing, so it's not super relevant to this discussion.
We tried nerfing it. It worked out super well and downgraded the perk from "blatantly overpowered monstrosity" to "strong in general and really annoying in some scenarios". I'd like to see that trajectory pushed forward so the perk can actually be considered "pretty healthy overall".
If I didn't make myself clear before, I apologize for the confusion. I meant waiting for the DH to come (hyperbolically baiting it out) not waiting until you see the survivor use it as that doesn't work all that great either. Many people don't fall for that and simply wait with the DH themselves. Going for the hit immediately is risky against survivors that don't wait and useless against survivors that can literally react to your attack.
You pointed out Wraith, who to be fair would catch a majority of survivors off guard, however he does give the survivor a very audible sound clue first when he fully uncloaks and again when he swings his weapon. You can use this sound to time the DH. Looking up and down doesn't cause a sound, so you only catch people that as you said are "twitchy". These aren't the problem. They don't get value out of DH because the killer gets it out of the way first. Again, these people shouldn't be too unhappy with DH getting stomped or reworked to do something entirely different because they don't really lose anything.
The reason why baiting out the DH doesn't work that well is because there is an audible indicator for most killers for when they actually attack. Billy will roar, Huntress and Wesker will grunt etc. For the killers that don't have the audible clue it's still easy to see when the actual attack animation begins for example Demogorgon. You can make an argument that the survivor did something skilled and should be rewarded for it and you wouldn't be necessarily wrong. However, if someone can guarantee themself a third health state every chase this becomes a problem because most killers don't have the time to deal with that. And that is disregarding the fact that the killer did something skilled as well to even get into the position where they can hit the survivor. The perk DH by nature just isn't healthy. I get that it's fun to use but a third health state per chase is impossible to balance. Some people will fail at using it and only be a annoying because they force the killer to wait when the chase should actually be over. Others guarantee a successful DH. For which one do you want to balance? Option is what we have now. Hoping that survivors aren't that good with it and will mostly fail so the killer only loses a few extra seconds baiting it out. A killer stacked with full regression perks can probably deal with it for the most part. But otherwise this still puts the killer behind schedule and we're currently seeing how well that goes. Option 2 is balancing for 3 health states per chase. This isn't something I'd like to see either because then running and hitting DH becomes mandatory.
The point about NOED is, that it got nerfed considerably to where people don't use it anymore (seriously, I haven't seen a single NOED in months). And I'm not unhappy about that. They solved the major issues this perk had:
- 1) The community hated it.
- 2) The perk was overused.
Both of these are true for current DH as well. That's why something needs to be done (besides the balancing issues I pointed out earlier).
I mentioned it above but I'll repeat: DH can never be healthy a perk by nature as long as they don't completely change its very core. That is extending the chase when it should be over or forcing the killer to run after the survivor like an idiot and hope they'll mess up, which is still horrible because of how boring and stupid that feels.
Which brings me to the next argument: "Hoping the other side messes up is not actual counterplay." We had the same issue with Nurse and had to explain over and over again why breaking LoS against her was hardly sufficient to balance out her power at the time. Nurse got nerfed as well and I am not unhappy about that either.
The DH nerf was simply not enough and never will be unless they either kill the perk or reimagine it from the ground up. At least one issue will always remain. Wether it's the perk being unreliable, disgusting to face because of how you counter it or DH being too strong. These are all major flaws that no perk as prevalent as DH should ever have.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352529#Comment_3352529
...Wait, why are you screwed if you wait it out? If you wait it out, then it doesn't do anything. There's no way you can get screwed by waiting it out unless they're at a pallet, and that's the area I agree it needs a nerf.
I'm not gonna go through that list and point out all the tricks and tools some of those killers have at their disposal, but rest assured they aren't all entirely screwed no matter what. Most of them would be equally screwed facing most of the other Exhaustion perks too, and that's why a lot of them have Exhaustion addons and access to at LEAST one anti-Exhaustion perk. If you're struggling with Exhaustion perks, and it's not a guaranteed lose/lose like DH at a pallet, there are tools for dealing with that.
That's not to say Dead Hard doesn't need any changes at all, of course. On top of the pallet interaction, I also personally feel you should get a severely diminished speed boost from a successful use of Dead Hard, so that it's most useful for staying in a loop and taking more risks rather than holding W and speeding away. That'd help most of the killers that can't avoid hitting into DH immensely too, even the ones that don't struggle as much as-is.
If you wait it out, the survivor you're chasing will hold off on the DH as well. That is until they spin a few times and then they either:
- reach a pallet to DH there (which we both agree shouldn't work in the way it does)
- get out the DH the moment you hit
- don't get the DH and you still waste extra time just because of DH's existence
Besides, then we're back at square one and everything I said in the opening post still holds. I don't want to be put in a situation where I either have to accept they'll just DH my lunge or my power or wait it out. "Waiting it out" is not the experience that any game should provide. This should not be a thing.
The difference between waiting out DH and waiting out Pain Res is: What happens, if you don't wait it out? Then DH = 3rd health state and Pain Res = you scream and that's it. I'm assuming you're talking about the whole Pain Res + DMS combo though. In that case the difference is that you can actually react to it. You see the aura of the survivor getting hooked before the Pain Res procs and with the next patch this will be even easier because the hooked survivor will scream sooner than Pain Res activates as well.
Of course, you can always miss your power just so that the DH will not go off but how is that acceptable counterplay? Mess up, so you don't give your opponent an even bigger advantage? It's not hard to react to most of these powers (respect, if you can pull it off against Spirit though, that's seriously cracked). You have more than enough time. If it was that difficult, we wouldn't see so many successful DHs against killer powers. Most powers give you a sound clue that you can use to time it. Faking your power works on the same people that would fail their DH anyway against a lunge or killer looking up and therefore these people shouldn't be unhappy with DH getting butchered. Simply switch to a perk you get value from for crying out loud.
The thing about other exhaustion perks though is, nobody is as triggered by them. Lithe doesn't come at the end of the chase and chances are, if it does the killer is doing really well in that chase. On top of that how many times have you seen survivors getting while activating Lithe. It happens fairly often, which again softens the blow. SP as well and it requires way more skill and thinking than DH does. Overcome isn't exactly nice to face (mainly because it promotes Shift + W gaming but that's an issue we'd need another discussion for) but it's far better than DH. Balanced Landing only works, if the survivor can make it to a part of the map where they can activate it. The other exhaustion perks I hardly need to make an argument about. Only DH is this giant middle finger that rewards a survivor that got outplayed by the killer by even getting into position to hit them in the first place.
Remember when everyone hated on NOED because it was "rewarding the killer for losing". How is DH any different from that? You screw up and have a crutch to get you out of this position. Great. The only reason the complaints about NOED stopped is because it was nerfed considerably and because of that isn't used as often anymore. DH on the other hand? Some people will never let this perk go as long as it isn't complete trash. The one perk that stood as the pinnacle of DBD's meta for 6 years with the highest usage rate by far, creating more controvery than anything else in this game, and that even made some players quit the game (look back at the survivor queue times right after the latency change) was not pushed off the throne and worse yet has the same horrible "counterplay" it had before, while getting even stronger in some situations.
All I want to see is this perk nuked. We tried nerfing it. Didn't work too well. Time for some more drastic measures.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352504#Comment_3352504
That's a false equivalence and you know it, come on now.
There's a giant chasm of difference between "you don't have to bait out DH in the first chase every time if you don't want to" and "don't use your power". I never said you should eat every DH, I said that you don't have to play ultra safe respecting DH before you've even seen it. If you swing and they do have it, obviously at that point you start playing around it, but the argument is about needing to respect it before you've actually determined if it's in play, and you do not have to do that. It isn't intentionally setting yourself up to lose and it's barely even playing worse, it's a question of how safe you want to play.
Dead Hard isn't a guaranteed third health state, and that's the entire point of the perk. It's a potential third health state that should, in theory, only actually work if the skill expression breaks in the survivor's favour and they time it correctly. Removing the awful pallet play would already go leaps and bounds above where we are in making that statement actually true, and there are a number of other small tweaks it could get to bring it more in line with that vision + lower its pickrate as its versatility diminishes. If not, fair enough, rework it entirely- but there's only one reason to ever nuke a perk, and it doesn't apply here.
Side note, we already had the meta shift. Still seeing one or two perks doesn't invalidate that.
My point still stands though. Don't wait it out - Get Dead Harded, fool. Now, have fun catching up to me and fighting for the hit all over again. Wait it out - Get screwed anyway. If you don't wait, you give that survivor an easy DH. Period. You're assuming that there aren't that many people who run DH anyway. When it's multiple DHs in every game. If your lobbies aren't like this, I'm 100% happy for you. But most of us see way too many DHs to risk it. If you can't get at least another 15 seconds (3x15 seconds=45 seconds on gens) out of a successful DH, then that is a skill issue that. The first down needs to happen as soon as possible or the killer will not be able to slow the game. A bad early game for the killer typically means a bad game overall for the killer. You can't win against 3 people on gens and one in chase. Pretty sure I don't need to do the maths for you on this one because that should be obvious. The only option to win as killer is to slow down the survivors so that you can actually progress at a much faster pace (making up for the time you lost earlier) than the survivors do. If that happens too late it doesn't matter anymore (besides DH could still get the survivors out of a pickle in mid and end game) because the damage is already done.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352511#Comment_3352511
The only killer off the top of my head who can't do anything about Dead Hard in a mechanical, bait-it-out way would be... Huntress, right?
And sure, maybe there's something to be said about a killer needing to dedicate parts of their loadout to it if they want to respond to Dead Hard, but it's not as though it's a widespread problem. Every other killer can either bait it, get the follow up hit super quickly, or is struggling for unrelated reasons- like Twins.
This is also why I've come to support giving Dead Hard less of a speed boost, too. That change would both bring it in line as the aggressive, stay-in-chase perk, and prevent it from being as damaging if a long-range killer like Huntress gets an attack blocked by it.
Sure. It's only Huntress. Let's completely ignore there are killers like, I don't know.... Trickster, Twins, Demogorgon, Wraith, Hillbilly (yes, many people actually stay injured so they don't go down in 1 hit), Myers (same issue with T3 lunge), Nurse, Blight, Knight, Hag, Spirit (many people do hit their DHs perfectly against a phasing Spirit), Pig, Oni, Pyramid Head, Nemesis, Artist and Wesker.
Apart from all the M1 killers that are screwed anyway because lunging is a no-go and waiting is also a no-go. Also have you counted how many perk slots each side has? 4 << 16 I'm pretty sure about that. If you need the exact mathematical proof I could probably provide you with that as well. Dedicating one perk to POTENTIALLY counter DH means you have only 3 perks left against the survivors' 12 (assuming everyone has DH or a different exhaustion perk). This also assumes they can't use their exhaustion perks at all, which, let's be real, never happens.
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@jesterkind said:
While I do agree that Dead Hard could use another few small nerfs to curb its problematic elements, like forcing a hit into it at pallets and in a more general sense just to lower its pickrate, I have never understood the argument about how killers have become conditioned to respect it before it's even in play, because... if you don't like respecting it before you've seen it, just don't?
You don't have to wait. You can just swing on your first chase and see if they use Dead Hard, you're not gonna lose the match on the back of that unless you're already doing absolutely terribly and the first chase has lasted like four generators. Even if you do choose to wait and see (or more accurately, choose to bait and see), how is that different to survivors letting go of a generator as a hook happens to check for Pain Res? It's a slight loss in efficiency to check what your opponent is bringing, and to deny them the full value if they do have it.
If it's not bad design there, I don't think it's inherently bad design here, either. The ability to respect it before you see it is clearly fine, and there isn't anything actually forcing you to do so. If you don't wanna respect it, don't; swing instantly on your first chase, and then if they use DH, great, you know now and can play around it. If they don't, you've got a down, no harm no foul.
Killers don't have to wait out DH. Absolutely. You know what else killers don't need to do? Mind game in loops, use their powers and bring perks and addons. Killers can just go into a match ready to lose. That's the issue with DH again. If you don't wait it out and swing, the survivor will use it and here you go giving them a third health state, which will make you lose the game if it happens frequently. If you do wait however and complain because it sucks (which, let's be honest, it does) you get told not to wait it out.
Your argument basically is: "A third health state doesn't matter anyway unless you're losing already." I'm sorry but again, BHVR want chases to go an average of 45 seconds. Assuming MMR works somewhat correctly the killer should not easily get a hit on you in 15 seconds and if they do that tells me everything I need to know. That the killer plays much better than you. Even I can do better than that and I'm far from being a good survivor. Most killers would be more than happy to get a hit every 40 seconds. Now let them all need 3 hits for every chase and see how that goes. Especially since you typically lose 2 gens for your first chase anyway, considering that you first need to make your way across the map and find a survivor before chasing them on a map that still has all its resources and after that pick them up, walk to the nearest hook and go through the hook animation. For the killer, the game typically begins a full minute after the survivors' (with very few exceptions). Having a perk that will cost them even more time is not helping.
See the problem here? The killer is basically being told to make the game harder on themself, which really only replaces one issue with another. Sure, I can simply lose every game just by eating every DH until I play against survivors that barely know what their objective is but when exactly am I allowed to have fun? Because this isn't fun.
Simply nerfing DH does not remove the issue. That's why I really want to see it nuked. That and to see the meta truly change, obviously.
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@stvnhthr said:
Deadhard is a hail mary, if you are losing because of dh you are a weak killer. DH works as intended maybe 30% of the time? Maybe less. That means well over half the time when you play against someone using DH you get a free down and hook. In my most recent game I went down 3 times in the same game using DH. First time I used it and timed it correctly, it never activated. Next time I used it one second early, it never activated. Next time I thought, "Ahah, I will use it a second and a half early," it activated immediately. One game, three different random timings for dh, it is impossible to use in a consistent manner within a single game, let alone from one match to the next.
Everyone who complains about DH is actually saying they are getting by on bad hits and lag.
If it works 30% of the time only, then it's still a badly designed perk. A perk that you use should work 100% of the time (not saying it should give you the value but it should work as intended). As I said, this whole argument doesn't affect you in the slightest. You get no value out of DH anyway, so why would you care if it gets completely demolished? Just bring a different perk and we're all happy.
With this "hail mary", as you call it, out of the way we could finally look at the actual issues this game has because then the killrates would not be depending on how well you can pull off the DH.
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@DancingCactus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351647#Comment_3351647
My Demo used to be one of my worst killers back then but lately I have only gotten wins with him, I personally noticed way less attempts to juke my pounces which gave me the idea that people just naturally became worse at his counterplay. To me it feels like, even with a simple killer like Demogorgon, if you don't get much experience against one it will show
Maybe I just got unlucky, then.
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Demo's counterplay is rather intuitive so it doesn't matter, if the survivors aren't too experienced against him. The last time I played him I got completely obliterated. I got exactly 2 hooks and was teabagged relentlessly. I'm not the best Demogorgon out there but I'm not super bad either. I just couldn't really do anything against unlimited fast heals, endless bodyblocks, gens flying in seconds, 4 DHs and Garden of Misery. Even STBFL couldn't help me.
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@RainehDaze said:
I've consistently gotten 0 screams out of it. Which is... something.
Try Wraith with Face the Darkness, Undying and Thrill of the Hunt. You'll probably lose the game but you're pretty much guaranteed to get the challenge done.
Alternatively don't run Undying and instead bring PWYF and Discordance. That should still get the job done, while also allowing you to finish chases a bit faster.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351483#Comment_3351483
The bug is on the survivor side: the directional audio isn't working anymore if there's minimum occlusion between the survivor and the killer, which means it's basically a guess all over again
Ok, that's weird. Hopefully it'll get fixed soon. Thanks for letting me know.
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I played her yesterday and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. What exactly is bugged about her besides the Dried Cherry Blossom, which does literally nothing?
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@kottonkhandi said:
Like, what if BHVR changed it, so that when you are 3 hook sacrificed, you stay in the match as a ghost, and there are secondary objectives(that only the ghost survs are able to see/complete), that when completed open the exit gate in a quicker time than the "alive" survivors doing gens could do. Kind of like how Among Us games are. I believe something like that would help incentivize hooks over kills, which would possibly help tone down tunneling and camping from killers(albeit gen eff. would have to be adjusted, however it would also give those that have been sacrificed something to do to gain a little more bp/help their fellow survivors) Thoughts?
That's pretty creative. Though I'm not sure how the devs would balance that. You'd have freshly unhooked survivors throwing themselves at the killer every game in the hope the killer 'tunnels' them out.
I like the idea but from a balancing point of view this would be a nightmare (I think).
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@C3Tooth said:
I remember 6.1.1 gameplay when 50sec Gen was freshly added, with DS gone and basekit BT was 5sec, survivors were struggle and not yet used with the new change.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7SLBXDKMXL1B/image.png
Killers still went full blown.
Killers may dont want to tunnel, but many killers want not to tunnel but still 4K. In the end when they keep getting 4K, increase MMR to play against Ayrun,Zubat squad who far out skill than them, they will go back to tunneling.
Then we will have mid skill killers able to toe to toe with top tier squads. Low-Mid skill survivors is nothing but sheeps.
You're not wrong. However it's not like you need the best survivors in the game to absolutely stomp half the killer roster. Especially weaker killers can never be as fast in progressing their objective as some survivors are. Take Freddy for example. There are groups that will relentlessly gen rush you and end the game in under 5 minutes. How can a Freddy ever hope to compete with that? Tunneling could MAYBE make it a bit easier but at the end of the day these survivors don't even need to be incredible in chase. Simply holding Shift + W and pallet camping would buy them enough time to win.
My point is that these 'Low-Mid skill survivors' can easily beat half the killer roster with their preset loadouts. It doesn't matter, if the killer is played by a new player or killer veteran. They simply have no right plays to make (other than hoping to defend a 3 gen).
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I have every single character in the game and I can't believe I'm saying this but I will not buy this chapter. Maybe I'll buy the killer with shards eventually for her perks but I don't want to play her. At all.
Then again I could spend my shards on another Hillbillly cosmetic I'll never use. Tough choice, honestly.
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BR is a mistake. The perk is absolutely horrible by design. Removing the heal makes it almost useless (insta down killers still get screwed over), letting the heal stay makes it broken beyond.
Can't wait for SP into hit into Adrenaline into BR SP. It's gonna be glorious.
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I like the idea. Only that's not how it works. The DLC is already on the PTB as bad as it might be. I will not buy this chapter. I'm not even sure I want to buy the killer with shards.
Think about it. I have the choice between another Hillbilly cosmetic I will never use because I always spiral back to the Milkman or.... this. That's honestly not an easy choice for once.
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I have no idea what my MMR is but I can say that every once in a while I get to a point where I'll simply lose 9/10 matches because I have so many things stacked against me lowering my MMR until I can finally play the game again. I play mostly weaker killers and Hillbilly.
Billy isn't too bad strength-wise but running fun builds and no addons on him will result in you losing against people that can't really hold their own in chase but simply progress faster than you could ever hope to. The same goes for the other killers I play. They simply get outpaced.
Usually I will lose at least 2 gens in 60 seconds. So I'd have to try and get 12 hooks while the survivors do 3 gens. I've played this game for 1 1/2 years mostly without slowdown, tunneling and camping and somehow managed to do ok. Sure, I lost quite a few games against survivors that weren't super good but that was never an issue for me. Now, I get clapped by people that could be either absolute babies or gods. I can't tell when I have 0 interaction with them.
I'm not happy about it but it seems I HAVE to adept. Meaning I will run slowdown again (even though the voices in my head scream at me not to do that) and I will tunnel the crap out of any group with more than 2 items. I'm done being a pushover in 90% of my matches. Playing nice and 'fair' has no payoff, so why should I care about the survivors' fun? They certainly don't care about mine.
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I don't judge people by who they play with. If they play with their friends that's good for them.
I judge by how they play. Do they send me to Garden of Pain or Eyrie? Are they trying to be d*ckheads? Do they stack the strongest tools possible and ending the game in 4 minutes before proceeding to butt dance in the exit gates? If the answer to all of those questions is 'no', then these are people I have no problem versing. If the answer to one or more of these questions is 'yes', well... Don't expect me to play nice.
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They will have a look at the bloodweb. That much we know. The BP cap will probably never be removed or buffed again.
But a search bar for perks has been asked for years and we still don't have it. With more than 200 perks in the game! How long can it possibly take them to program this? 15 minutes? Maybe 30 because they'd need to design graphics for it as well.
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I'd be fine with the unhooked survivor loosing collision (at the expense of the ability to use items because an invincible survivor running around doing flashlight saves isn't exactly fair) until they touch a gen or heal or until someone else gets hooked, if the killer had any incentive not to tunnel. But right now, how is a B-tier killer (and below) expected to keep up with 4 medkits / toolboxes with the strongest addons and perks plus map offerings every game? What once was the exception is now the average game.
I just had a game as Wraith with a more gimmicky build around Hex: Face the Darkness and lost 2 gens in 53 seconds. I literally started to stop the time for my matches because it's that ridiculous. When I had one person dead with one gen left to do I could finally start playing the game. If I hadn't tunneled that match would have ended in 4 minutes with me maybe getting 4 hooks? These survivors weren't even amazing in chase. They just outpaced me.
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@tippy2k2 said:
You're all fools
It's obvious. She uses DRONES. Drones are machines.
She is also female. F emale. F. As in FRIDAY
She has an Add-on called Brown Noise Generator. N oise. As in NIGHT
Her name is also Adriana. A driana. A. As in AT
She is from Fortaleza. F ortalez. F. As in FREDDY'S
Y'all, the new killer is obvious. How you can't see such blatant In Your Face clues is baffling to me...
Fact.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3349999#Comment_3349999
Go on then, correct me.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong. I'm saying the copium is strong with you. Meaning you have higher hopes than most of us.
I doubt they'll put in the work necessary to really sell this killer. I reckon many will buy her with shards but who would spend money on her as she is now? That would require them to rewrite the lore because what we have is shallow and implausible, as well as reworking her power, her animations and her appearance (she's supposed to be stealthy after all). The chase music is simply boring and uninspired and the mori looks like it was animated in about 5 minutes. Seriously, the survivor just stands there for 5 seconds and does nothing and then they are surprised the killer is behind them? WHAT?! They just got downed so they know where the killer is! Also it's blatantly copied from Freddy.
They did very little with Sadako even though the vast majority of the playerbase agreed that she should get some buffs for her chase. Remember, that was before people started to play for Condemned so her kill rate was pretty abismal and to this day we still consider this whole playstyle an exploit. As it stands she'll exceed Knight in 3 gen camping and be inferior in everything else.
They will fix some bugs, maybe slightly tweak some numbers and that's it. The mori is gonna stay the same as is the power, the visual design and her chase music. Another boring, poorly designed C-tier killer is born.
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@Shroompy said:
Honestly I think this is just one of those PTB's where the killer just isn't complete. The chapter isn't necessarily rushed as everything other than Skull Merchant is pretty high quality, but its obvious she is not a finished product in PTB, so many things would explain this.
-Killers who are usually pretty well received are more complete and usually don't receive many changes from PTB to Live. Sadako, Dredge and Wesker are perfect examples, only receiving a few number changes. Wesker is the only outlier here being very buggy on release, but he was still pretty well received regardless. Another killer that I think falls into the same boat as Skull Merchant is Blight. He received A LOT of backlash when he was revealed on PTB as many people thought he was either going to be some sort of Werewolf killer, or have a power related to alchemy. On PTB he was also incomplete, having a much wider hitbox and having a pretty bad bug which made him go through 2 cooldowns for hitting with his power. (first was a weapon shake, then he injected) Once he reached live servers pretty much all of these issues were fixed and he became well received for the most part.
-Skull Merchant is missing a few sounds (The lobby is the more obvious one, but something tells me she's supposed to have voice lines. Not just for her mori, but in general) which can ABSOLUTELY matter. Another PTB that had this issue was Spirit's. (which I think is probably the killer SM can relate the most to in terms of first impressions) All she had were phasing, breathing and weapon SFX. No noise for being stunned (she had Nurse's stun SFX as a placeholder) and made no noise during her mori. Pair all of that with a power which was VERY weak, and majority of people getting their predictions wrong as many thought it was going to be a Samurai, thanks to a teaser they posted which ended up being her father cutting her up into pieces. Spirit really wasn't a killer that many people were a fan of at first, but ended up becoming a fan favorite over the years.
-Then there's her power, probably one of the weakest powers in DbD history thanks to its easy counter play and basically no use in the chase department. Which we haven't had a killer with 0 chase power since Ghost Face, which was almost 4 years ago. There is something very important here how ever that people fail to realize, that thing being her power is very unique and brings a new kind of way to play. The only problem with it, is that its very under tuned and without a doubt needs tweaks.
I have faith in BHVR that they'll give her a proper start once she reaches live, and when that happens I think she'll become a fan favorite. But for that we'll just have to wait and see
The copium is strong with this one.
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It doesn't matter, if the chapter was rushed or not. We got 2 cool new survivors, 2 absolutely gorgeous maps and a killer that underperforms in every way immaginable.
The Skull Merchant doesn't look like a killer. Visually she is just a rather appealing woman wearing something I'd expect more from a mercenary with a comically large predatoresque weapon that doesn't suit her at all. Her mask contradicts the fact that she is more of an assassin than a psychopath like the Trickster, who has fun chasing their prey. Her chase music is boring and don't get me started on her mori. It's by far the worst in the game. Her power can be summed up as: lacking. It lacks lethality since she has no anti-loop. It lacks mobility. It lacks slowdown. It even lacks the information part. She has a radar that is very misleading and a stealth that simply doesn't work because her character model is about as stealthy as the sun. You see her mask everywhere. Worst of all it lacks skill expression. Tactical gameplay is all well and good but she isn't a tactical killer. Just set up a drone in an area you want to defend and that's it. A bit like Hag but with less thought put into it. With Hag you'd at least think about where exactly the trap needs to bet set so that it's hard to remove and hard to see, while still giving you the perfect angle to attack.
The worst part is that this could have been a very cool killer. You have so many options to work with this gimmick but instead we got a killer with subpar tracking and pretty much nothing else. Especially against injured survivors. This is worse than Legion because they can at least stab the injured survivor and get into the next chase immediately.
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@AlyssaaMac said:
This is the first chapter in a while that didn't get leaked months in advance so everyone let their imaginations run wild and are mad the killer isn't what they imagined. This is the first time in a while we went almost completely blind into a ptb and the player base can't handle it because they set their expectations with no information and are blaming BHVR for it. No matter what happened with this chapter people would've been upset.
Wrong. People imagined all the different things that would be possible with her gimmick, but the disappointment doesn't come from that. The disappointment is that the Skull Merchant is a blatantly boring killer. She is weak, she has basically no power at all against an injured survivor (worse than Legion because they can at least screw you with deep wounds and go for the next), she has no mobility and overall there isn't much you can do with her. Is there anything reall cool with payoff that would require you to play this killer? Absolutely not. Everything she does, someone else does better and in a more fun way. She is a jack of all trades, master of none. Building up the exposed status and stealthing? Ghostface. Tracking survivors? Doctor and Artist.
Apart from her gameplay her visual design is just not appropriate for a supposed horror game. How is anyone supposed to take her serious? Even the Legion are more menacing than her because they look like absolute lunatics running at you with a knive. Why does her mask need to be sparkling bright and made of diamonds? I know she's rich but that isn't a quality that should define her appearance as a killer. Why does her suit look more like a mercenary's than that of a high tech assassin? Look at her animations as well. What is that walk? Nobody walks like this. It just looks goofy. Her mori is the worst in the entire game.
Overall this killer is a disaster in absolutely every way. Good luck selling it.
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I really don't see the point of this killer. Yeah, you can track survivors but then what? She doesn't have any kind of anti-loop (no, Undectable doesn't count, look at GF). Exposing a survivor is reliant on this survivor not leaving the area. Then again, what reason could they possible have to stick around? She has no mobility and even her tracking is subpar. Any killer with BBQ has pretty much better tracking than her.
She doesn't look threatening at all, her chase theme is pretty boring, she has the worst mori in the game, her animations make me question my sanity. Is that how women are supposed to move? I've never seen anyone move like this, man or woman. It's unnatural. And did you look at her mask? It's made of diamonds or something because I guess we need to show that she's really rich. A killer that uses stealth to assassinate her targets wears a shimmering diamond mask? What?! Why? Why not make it black?
Why not go the extra mile and design her as some kind of assassin? Less flashy drones with only subtle hints that they are around and the ability to spot survivors through walls, better stealth (smaller character model, darker clothes, smaller terror radius) and some kind of an ambush. Maybe even giver her a special interaction with gens like the ability to set up a trap that catches a survivor for X seconds. That would at least make her at least a bit more interesting to play.
As it stands she's really just boring and uninspired. There is creativity in her power but not in the actual gameplay and that is the worst thing imaginable for a killer you're trying to sell. Even her lore is poorly written.
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Exactly.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3343366#Comment_3343366
And I see zero reason to make their already miserable experience worse.
By that logic there shouldn't be any new content. The more content there is, the more you need to know and the more miserable newer players are. BHVR shouldn't actively try to make this game harder on beginners, I agree, but nerfing perks because they're particularly hard on newer players is not the way to go. Next thing, we'll have to nerf Huntress' Lullaby, all exhaustion perks, all aura perks, Brutal Strength, WoO.... Basically anything that isn't Shadowborn because less experienced players will have a harder time going against these perks than more experience players, who know how to play around them.
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I would love to see some perks that incentivize the killer to play nice be stronger. Right now, playing nice is basically synonymous with throwing the game. Instead of nerfing killers or punishing them for playing mean there should be rewards for nicer play styles. However, there are absolutely none. Butt dances in the exit game and messages about how the killer was an "ez bot noob" surprisingly don't seem to work either.
BBQ is a subpar aura perk and Grim Embrace is bad for obvious reasons as well. Instead we have Pain Res which works perfectly fine when tunneling and camping and other alternatives that help camp a 3 gen but not much more.
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@Pulsar said:
I would like to see Overcharge's difficult skill check put on a cooldown. It's extremely punishing to newer players.
Other than that, I don't see any reason RIGHT NOW that these perks need changes.
Mate, the whole game is punishing for newer players. That's how it works.
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It's a bit loud but otherwise I honestly like it. Would be nice if they toned it down a bit.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342607#Comment_3342607
Believe it or not, they changed the garden bushes in someway a couple months back. Blight can hug them now, where before he couldn't play the game within a 2-mile radius of the bushes.
I know. It's a bit better than it used to be. With Shadowborn you can at least see what you bumped into but for Hillbilly it's still horrible. Haven't played Blight there very much so I don't know how that feels but I'd hope it's nowhere near as bad as before.
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Don't give them ideas! All of these perks would be absolutely worthless. I'm talking "Beast of Prey"-worthless here. 😂
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342957#Comment_3342957
What other “bugs”?
Moonrushes (no idea how they work, might get cleared along with hug tech), slippery tiles and air collision.
Though the latter two might be more of a flaw in hitboxes rather than actual bugs. I'd still hope these get fixed as well.
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At some point survivors will realize that M1 on gens wins games. That is where you can't compete without slowdown anymore. Losing against these people doesn't seem to help (personal experience) because even seemingly less experienced survivors often enough bring toolboxes and perks that will allow them to progress the game faster than you could ever hope for.
My matches are pretty boring atm because the survivors I face don't really challenge me in chase but they'll win anyway because I don't use slowdown.
I wish you better luck than myself because this gets dull after a while.
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Hug tech? What was that again? Hmm, we should probably nerf the Pig. ~ BHVR (probably)
Anyway, they seem to be on a path to fix 'techs', so hug tech should go as well and since they announced that they were "looking into it" I'd hope they remove it some time soon. Though, I'd hope that Blight's other bugs get fixed as well.
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I'd be happy with basically anything else. They should at least have the guts and just nuke it instead of reworking it to do something useless. Why do we need more perks that aren't just bad but literally provide you with something you don't want or need.
A more useful version would be 10% + another 5% per survivor on that gen. Or just give it a completely new effect. Something that killers could actually use.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342679#Comment_3342679
Videogame communities are meritocracies at their core. Regardless of points - if one has no experience it usually ends in a debate about ranks. I do believe that one can have knowledge without rank, but it’s hard to believe someone that can’t provide some form of merit. It’s not like we write academic papers with credible source material on the topics. So it helps to preface with rank 🤷🏻♂️ if one has it.
That's the other issue. Everyone here could claim to be red ranks / top MMR. Hell, I could tell you I had the highest MMR ranking of all killers (which I'm sure isn't true). Most people aren't as good as they think. Have you seen how many posts there are of self-proclaimed "high MMR" players? This adds nothing to the argument because you never know, if it's true.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342627#Comment_3342627
🤷🏻♂️ i had to work and wanted to play other games. Red ranks weren’t much harder to get. Grades might be a “grind”, but the fact that emblems haven’t changed their point system (still 16 points max for 4 iridescence medals and max 2 pips i mean) makes it so that it still takes the same amount of time if you average out about the same amount of medal quality points. So I don’t see your point? So what if my red ranks are from before the grade system. My grades are red also? (When i find time to play at least.)
or do you have a better way to indicate knowledge of the game?
Good to see you actually meant ranks and grades. Many people do mix that up. However, I can't say that red ranks where all that impressive either. I saw so many people in rank 1 or 2 that were just bad. It became a bit of a meme how many potatoes you'd still see in red ranks. Ranks did influence the matchmaking but you still saw a huge variety in skill.
I always find it a bit strange when people need to back up their arguments by saying: Ohh, I'm high MMR / red rank or whatever. Just make your point and give a plausible explanation.