Xernoton
Xernoton
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I'm nowhere near as skilled or as experienced as you @gtVel but I have a fair bit of experience on this killer as well (around 600 hours) and I just cannot believe they actually came to the conclusion that they had to nerf him in such a way.
Overheat was introduced to limit Billy and Bubba's camping capabilities. This change to his overheat now literally works against their original goal. It limits his map mobility and even chase power but allows him to camp more efficiently. Even if only slightly, these changes will shift Billy's power away from mobility and chasing and towards camping. This is something that nobody asked for. Quite the opposite in fact.
Overheat has never been that much of an issue to me personally. I mostly don't overheat in chase and I don't camp. On very rare occasion though, I'll encounter a survivor that really challenges me in chase by mindgaming and greeding pallets. Against those survivors I do sometimes overheat or get fairly close to and have to wait until the chainsaw has cooled down a bit. I'm honestly fine with that. But I do not see why Billy's map mobility of all things should be nerfed. It will make me go into the next chase with more heat than before and therefore become an issue.
Lastly, his addons. I don't think I have ever seen anyone complain about Engravings. Not a single time. I can only assume that the devs looked at their pick rates and decided to nerf them for that reason alone. But anyone who knows the Hillbilly's addons will know why Engravings and Lo-Pros have the highest pick rates. Simply because these addons are genuinely good and fun to use, while the rest of his addons aren't. At least most of them. I have not found a single situation where I could get value out of the Big Buckle (and believe me, I've tried!) and many of his other addons are too unreliable or undertuned to even be considered an option. The Engravings enable a whole different play style on certain maps. You can try and curve without them but Billy's base speed is simply too low. Often enough a survivor will have so much time they can simply react the chainsaw and stop out of the way or get around the next corner. Billy needs an addon pass but his Engravings should not be touched.
With everything that Billy mains had to put up with over the last few years, from maps and awful collisions, more and more pallets and strong windows and even the removal of Skybilly, I can't comprehend this change. Billy is literally the reason I am still engaged in the game to this day. There has been more than enough feedback for the devs to know exactly what people thought were Billy's issues. Yet they kick him again and again. With every new map, every new tile and now with this.
Where is all this hate for Billy coming from?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381162#Comment_3381162
Come now, if you don't think DH & CoH weren't nuked too your bias is showing.
I agree. Though, CoH will still be useful, if used correctly. DH got what it deserved. I won't miss it. I would have been happy with a complete rework for that perk as well but here we are.
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@Nos37 said:
I hope "most efficient tactic available" becomes "many efficient tactics avilable" 🙏
Agreed. I doubt this will happen with the next mid chapter though.
I do think these changes may be exactly what the game needs. Our perks, items and addons should not decide the outcome of a match as heavily as they do.
With that being said though, I think BHVR went a bit heavy on some of these nerfs. For example I don't understand why the altruistic healing speed on medkits was nerfed as well. If anything I think a buff in that regard would be fair as a slight compensation. Also Overcharge and CoB got hit a bit too heavy. I hope they'll just rework these perks. Because with these changes I don't see any reason why anyone would run them. They just don't do enough to be worth a perk slot.
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@scxrletghxst said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380999#Comment_3380999
bro i already run a killer for so long how much more do we have to do? you call us entitled yet the devs literally nerf us to the ground for no ######### reason at all.
If you 'already run the killer for so long' you shouldn't have any issues then. Actually you should do even better than before considering that gen regression got nerfed, which forces the killer to go for chases above all else.
This should be one of the best updates ever made for you. So, why are you complaining? If you're so good in chase the killer will have a very hard time to defend their gens and get hooks.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380298#Comment_3380298
For section 1, those kind of changes would be best implemented as addons than power switching. To have a complex power switching affect do so little doesn't make sense to code into the game. Power switching features typically have differences between modes. Slow down vs speed up for Clown as an example.
As for my point, a lot of those on the forum say generic stuff like when are they going to rework Hillbilly. Twin mains are just as bad. Threads just complaining she is being forgotten. Unfortunately the Devs don't seem to act on anything unless there are several people talking about it.
I've seen a lot of these posts asking for Hillbilly changes. But it's never as simple as "just change Billy". It's always "remove overheat", "rework his addons", "make his collisions more forgiving" etc.
They had enough feedback to know exactly why this killer feels awful to play. Yet they once again change him for the worse. Is camping really what we want? Because that is exactly what they incentivise with this change.
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@Mr_K said:
Like I stated in another thread, this was asked for. People asked for Hillbilly changes thinking it could only be buffs. Well they were wrong.
Me and many others as well have stated exactly what we thought were the Hillbilly's issues. It was never about Billy receiving any changes it was about his issues getting fixed. They didn't do that and instead nerfed him even more and made him more awful to play! How is that acceptable?
A while ago I posted some ideas of mine:
@Xernoton said:
In theory, the Hillbilly has everything a killer could ask for. Map mobility and a power with a high skill ceiling, that allows him to end chases quickly and can be used in creative ways. The issues lie in his inability to play around certain loop shapes (mostly squares and circles) with his power, many random objects blocking his way on most maps making it much harder to traverse them, windows and vaults, hitboxes and his addons.
I have thought about some ways to make him a bit nicer to play and also to compensate for some of his weaknesses:
1) The Hillbilly is very map and addon dependent. On some maps all you need is the turning addons to have a much better time. On other maps you absolutely have to have engravings or you will never be able hit a survivor by curving around an object. That is mostly due the loop's geometry allowing the survivor to turn around the next corner quicker than you can catch up or the loop being so long that the survivor can always step to the side without needing to mind game / guess how the Hillbilly will curve.
I suggest allowing the Hillbilly to switch between 2 chainsaw modes:
- The turning mode, that makes him move at a lower speed (210% instead of 230%) with an increased turning rate of 40°/s (currently 32°/s) during his Chainsaw Sprint. In this mode the overheat progresses 20% slower during an active Chainsaw Sprint.
- The speed mode, that makes him move at an increased speed (240% instead of 230%). However the chainsaw charge time is increased to 2.7 seconds (instead of 2.5 seconds). ~ Basically a weaker version of the Death Engravings. Unlike the Death Engravings, the speed mode does not alter the overheat rate.
Changing between turning and speed mode happens by pressing the active ability button and will take 3 seconds. During these 3 seconds the Hillbilly moves at a decreased speed of 85%. The charging sounds for each mode will be different (higher pitched sound for speed, lower pitched sound for turning), allowing the survivor to adept their play style.
2) The Hillbilly's Cool-downs (bumping, hitting a survivor, stopping the chainsaw) are reduced by 15% to 2.55 seconds (currently 3 seconds). For his addons the 2.55 seconds will serve as the reference point of 100%.
3) To help him deal with hitboxes a bit better, the Hillbilly will no longer bump for the duration of the enhanced turning rate (0.75 seconds).
4) Addon changes:
Brown addons:
- Steel Toe Boots: Reduced cooldown changed to 10% (currently 12%) to compensate for 2).
Yellow Addons:
- Dad's Boots: Changed to Dented Metal Plate. "An old plate of metal, that has seen better days." Increases your Field of View by 15%. Field of View gains do not stack. ~ Tier 3 Shadowborn. You know why.
- Death Engravings: Nerf: Increases the Movement Speed during a Chainsaw Sprint in speed mode by 10% (currently 15%) to compensate for the added base speed. Buff: Increases the Charge time of the Chainsaw in speed mode by 5% (currently 12%). Other effect stays the same.
- Off-Brand Motor Oil: Added effect. Decreases the time necessary to switch between speed and turning mode ( and vice-versa) by 0.2 seconds.
- Big Buckle: Added effect: Press the active ability button twice to overload the Chainsaw causing a non-directional map wide noise and immediately gain 40% overheat. This effect has a Cool-down of 15 seconds. Buff: Reduces the Terror Radius by -12 metres (currently -8 metres).
Green Addons:
- Low Kickback Chains: Nerf: Decreases the Cool-down time after hitting an obstacle during a Chainsaw Sprint by 20% (currently 28%) to compensate.
- Leafy Mash: Added Effect: The Chainsaw is now smeared with Leafy Mash covering up the Chainsaw's glow and slightly reducing the smoke eminated from it. Buff: Gain the Undectable Status Effect for 20 seconds (currently 15 seconds) after hitting a Survivor with the Chainsaw.
- Doom Engravings: Nerf: Increases the Movement Speed of the Chainsaw Sprint in speed mode by 15% (currently 20%) to compensate for the added base speed. Buff: Increases the Charge time of the Chainsaw by 5% (currently 12%). Other effect stays the same.
- Black Grease: Changed to Dad's Wrench. "A trusty wrench to get the job done, often used by Max Thompson Senior." Decreases the time necessary to switch between speed and turning mode (and vice-versa) by 20% (0.6 seconds).
Purple Addons:
- Spiked Boots: Nerf: Increases the Turn speed during the Chainsaw Sprint by 30% (was 44%). This effect is halfed while in speed mode. Buff: Increases the Cool-down time after hitting an obstacle during a Chainsaw Sprint by 20% (currently 28%) Added Effect: Reduces the Cool-down time after ending a Chainsaw Sprint in turning mode manually by 30% (0.765 seconds).
- Iridescent Brick: Added Effect: Silences the Chainsaw for all Survivors outside of the Terror Radius.
- Apex Muffler: Rework: After hitting a Survivor with the Chainsaw gain 100% overheat for 5 seconds. ~ 5 seconds of full overheat, then back to 0 overheat.
All addons not mentioned above stay the same.
What do you think of these suggestions? My goal was to make the Hillbilly a little bit stronger (and versatile) and a lot less frustrating to play as while still allowing for sufficient counterplay from the survivor's side. The reason I did not suggest to remove the overheat mechanic is because it was implemented for the purpose of making it impossible to deny unhooks by revving the chainsaw indefinitely, limiting the Hillbilly's camping ability.
I was very specific here. In no way could this be interpreted as just any changes.
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They finally killed this awful perk. It will sting for a while, but you'll learn to play without it. Especially since the number 1 argument against DH nerfs is that 'it doesn't even work'.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
Billy was nerfed actually. Good Billy players almost never overheat, it’s never been an issue to them.
Engravings however are his only useful add ons and they are nerfed now. They’ll still be his most used add ons because the rest of his a garbage, but now you’re just slower… he’s even deader than before.
^ This.
The introduced overheat to counter chainsaw camping, now they nerf his chase and buff his camping ability again. And the nerf to his addons on top of that.
This hurts all 4 of us Billy mains.
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I mean, would it make Billy uncounterable? No, definitely not. Would it fix his issues, though? Most certainly not.
It pains me to say but the only thing that can help Billy is a quite excessive rework. Anything else would be nice but it wouldn't really solve his issues. And Billy has a lot of those.
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Damn, that's rough. I hope your matches will get better soon. That is not what this game should come down to.
There are such extremes on both sides. It's honestly sad to see how many people despise their opponents when it's just a video game.
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OG Freddy with buffs. The current Freddy is just boring. His OG version at least had something creative.
It's sad to see how neglected Freddy is.
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376261#Comment_3376261
Is playing to have fun, instead of optimizing the easiest win and making the most boring matches possible, off the table?
Why does the killer have to do that, when the survivors don't?
It's BhVR's job to incentivise healthy play styles. Right now, they do the exact opposite. Tunneling, camping, 3-genning, slugging, gen rushing, Shift + W, predropping every pallet, bodyblocking with Endurance. These are all things that work better than their alternatives (optimized play styles). Until that is changed, these play style will go nowhere.
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I, personally, don't have any trouble with motion sickness. However, I do get disoriented very easy when playing DBD. I know the maps and loops like the back of my hand but every time I have to turn very fast (like when playing Blight, Billy or Oni) I need a split second to orient myself. Shadowborn helps me deal with that. With the increased FOV I can easily turn 360° without issues. On some killers I can play without it but it's definitely not a nice feeling, when you have to adjust how you play to it.
This shouldn't be locked behind a perk. It's a QoL issue that should be addressed. A FOV slider would be a slight advantage but not any more than the visual indicator of the killer's TR. After all, sometimes you didn't hear the TR over a gen being worked on, your friends talking etc.
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376376#Comment_3376376
It's the most used perk because:
- Unlike killers, who all have unique powers that benefit from different builds, all survivors have the same abilities.
- It's the only exhaustion perk that's fun to use. It's the only one with some element of interaction with the killer. Most of the others simply activate and you just zoom away. The exception being Head On, which is virtually impossible to get use out of in solo queue, and get more than one use out of in a match.
- It's the only exhaustion perk that's mildly useful against Nurse, Spirit, and Blight.
90% of the time, survivors would get more value out of something like Sprint Burst or Lithe. Those aren't fun to use, though. It isn't fun to immediately zoom away from the killer, likely ending the chase before it even started.
It's not a second chance if you're making plays based around having it.
So your argument is: "If I didn't have DH, I'd just play better and don't go down"?
That is the worst argument in defense of the perk you could make. Learn how to play the game, not the perk.
DH is a second chance perk. It is. No amount of randomly combined words will change that. It can never give you any value unless you lose the chase. That's how it works. You lose the chase, then press "E" for a second chance (third health state). It's the same as with hatch. It's a second chance. Of course, if you just stand still and do nothing your second chance will be wasted but it is a second chance none the less.
Also, if DH was so weak, it wouldn't be fun. There is no fun in a perk that won't do anything for you. Strangely enough, you aknowledged that the strongest killers in the game are (somewhat) countered by DH. Now think a bit further. It doesn't stop there. Most killers get countered by DH. I can play around a SB pretty well. The survivor uses it and next time I find them, they'll be vulnerable. Most of the time, they'll go back to where I found them (gen) anyway. The same can't be said for DH.
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@Grum said:
Dead Hard isn't a second chance. It's an exhaustion perk that you can easily outplay (unlike virtually every other exhaustion perk).
DH is literally the most used perk in the game. Weird that so many survivors use a perk that is so much weaker than its alternatives.
And DH definitely is a second chance. It cannot give you any value as long as the killer doesn't get in a position to down you (a position where you lost the chase). If that doesn't qualify as a second chance I don't know what does.
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More BP = More BNPs
No thanks.
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@Kalevi said:
Will we get the Doom Slayer?
So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Shadowborn. I can't play without it anymore. Otherwise I guess Lethal Pursuer and BBQ. You get value out of them in the exact moment you need it without going out of your way to do something different than you normally would.
As survivor Windows of Opportunity and Bond are great.
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In order from left (most fun) to right (least fun).
Billy is a case for himself. I love and hate him at the same time.
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You know that people also argue that SWFs are broken, right?
But yeah, let's implement this to the survivors' base kit as well. Maybe even outside of chase as long as someone has LoS. And why not give survivors aura vision on Trapper's and Hag's traps while we're at it?
I'm sure Nurse will be fine, though. You wouldn't mind seeing that killer a bit more often, would you?
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Trade offer: You receive killer repeat prevention. I receive perk repeat prevention.
Now we can both proceed to wait in queue for 20+ minutes without ever finding a decent match.
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Whatever they do, at some point they need to put out higher quality content again. More important than that though, is that they fix some game health issues.
The game has become some kind of slog. Matches take either 4-5 minutes or 20+ minutes and mostly whoever ends up losing won't have fun. Some QoL issues should be fixed as well. Why can't killers have a FOV slider? The killer's FOV is awful and running Shadowborn every game can't really be the solution. Then there are some perks (looking at you, DH!), that are hated by a large group of players and make the game feel stale because they are in every game. The survivor equivalent would be CoB / Overcharge.
It just feels like 'fun' hasn't really been the focus in a while.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3373098#Comment_3373098
That is an idea!
That hatch is dumb, degrades game play across the entire match and...
Why is it still here?
I find myself wondering about the same thing. Also, when the killer closes the hatch and the survivor lost their second chance, why is it they get a third chance at escaping (via exit gates)?
Doesn't make much sense to me.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372280#Comment_3372280
And if you were affected by the twins issues you could just play another killer instead.
Its much easier to accidentally go for a grab than to accidentally choose a killer that is having issues once you know its having issues.
Funnily enough, BHVR gave no warning about the Twins bug and they even claimed they fixed the issue, only to then realize it wasn't fixed at all. Not killswitching Twins was the wrong decision. Period.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371507#Comment_3371507
The main difference between the 2 is the nurse bug could happen to anyone, it was unilateral and could theoretically happen every match if the criteria was met.
The twins issue was very different as some people would experience the issue constantly, and could therefore choose not to use them, while others were completely unaffected I did my own testing and was at over 200 matches with no gamebreaking issues while everyone was on the forum calling for the killswitch.
Nurse was still playable though. You didn't grab a survivor and you were fine.
Twins on the other hand were bugged for 2 months and literally unplayable for a lot of players as the bug would trigger every single game. You could also involuntarily hold a survivor hostage when opening a locker while bugged. I had that once and the poor Meg could not wiggle off. Even blinding me didn't work.
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There are only a few bad perks in this game. Most perks can come in handy. However, I think Beast of Prey, Territiorial Imperetive, Furtive Chase, Nemesis, Unnerving Presence, Predator and Leverage qualify as bad perks. You might be able to get some use out of them but mostly you need to dedicate a complete build and playstyle to it, that will probably still be worse than running no perks at all and playing normally.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371152#Comment_3371152
Tbh i'm tempted to embrace that kind of mentality, wanna know why? Everytime that i queue as killer (usually with meme addons) i found ALWAYS people with meta stuff (instaheals, styptic agents, brand new parts, etc etc...), abuse of certain "tech" (bugs that people consider features for some reason in order to gain an unintended advantage), abuse perks and basekit stuff out of their context (things as bodyblocking with bt, actively searching the killer for using DS aganist you without being tunneled just to lose more of the killer's time, etc etc), unfun and unhealthy gameplay (tbags after being stunned, being blinded without even having the survivor with the flashlight in your field of view) and mostly MAP OFFERINGS (garden of joy and decimated borgo most of the times)... if there's something that i hate is when people put those offerings since they don't want to just play the game to have fun... they want to win AT ALL COSTS and be toxic toward the killer stroking their victory in your face... this is my daily experience nowdays, a reason why i started to care less about the survivor's fun generally speaking and being less emphatic (add also that all the few killer's perks that were somewhat useful were/are slowly being heavily nerfed and you get the whole picture of why dbd is in this sorry state and it's getting worse after each patch...)
Ough. That's rough. That sounds even worse than my matches. And my matches these past few weeks have been mostly me getting destroyed by survivors, that I couldn't even tell if they were good at the game. I played 1 1/2 years without slowdown and it's never been this miserable before. As survivor my escape rate has never been higher as well. Maybe I got better at playing survivor but the HUD helps more than some people would like to admit.
One game I was so fed up that I started tunneling 1 survivor out immediately. They were dead after 2 minutes with 2 people bodyblocking for them. Somehow they still managed to do 3 gens in this time. The next was done 30 seconds later. That was a perfect example of gen rush.
The devs screwed up the extremes in that regard. You can either play as efficient as possible (tunneling, 3-genning) or get gen rushed beyond reason. Both extremes are probably not what they had in mind but until they change something it will be mostly impossible for both sides to have fun.
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@Entitled_survivor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371210#Comment_3371210
There is no way you're defending people thst play like this 😂
Playing a killer in a way that works? Blasphemy!
If there is anyone to blame here, it's the devs. They created this killer in this specific way. We can't really blame anyone for playing the game in the way they see fit as long as it's not against game rules. And since this is technically not holding the game hostage it's also not breaking any rules.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371372#Comment_3371372
Most people who send death threats to people who use them are not "just Survivors". Realistically, most people who play the game to begin with play both sides (I think people forget this). Ive been sent death threats by Killers and Survivors, Ive been cyberstalked, DOXed, and DDOSed many times, I do not agree with the idea that it is "just Survivors".
Another thing, is that they are just toxic individuals in general, generalizing and hating a group of people over something horrible that only a smaller portion of the community does is horrible idea. Negativity bias is definitely a hard thing to move away from but it is worth doing for your physical and mental health.
Good point. It is a bit sad though, that at the moment the winning strategies for both sides inherently make the game boring or unfun for the respective other.
I would love some changes for both sides that overall push players into the intended game loop a bit more.
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It's likely some of these SWFs you come across are actually solos. Most matches of my killer matches feel like I go against a perfectly coordinated SWF as well. Then I remember that there is the HUD + several survivor perks that give survivors all the info they could ever hope for.
Coordination for survivors has never been easier.
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Played Billy there a few times. It's not Garden of Misery but it's pretty bad. Most of the time you get in the general area you need to be in but that's about it. The bushes could be worse though.
This might be harder on Blight than it is on Billy actually.
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2 things can be a problem at once. Maps are too safe, agreed. But holding a 3 gen for 40+ minutes shouldn't be what this game comes down to. It makes the game incredibly stale. Just like 2-4 DHs every match.
Your last point, I absolutely agree to. Survivors and killers alike can spread positivity as well as toxicity. Mostly, it feels like toxicity. That is partly our own fault, because we shouldn't do that and partly BHVR's fault, because they won't do anything about it. Though, playing to win isn't exactly toxic as long as your intention is not to ruin the game for your opponents.
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Mostly myself with the exception of games that were over before they started. I've had my share of those thinking: "If I let anyone else play in my stead that wouldn't have made any difference." As a survivor, you can't realistically win a match where someone dced at 5 gens. As a killer, you can't really do much when playing a weak killer on Garden of Misery against people that know exactly what they're doing.
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If you want to get better, try and find out where your shortcomings lie. For example you could be great at positioning and decision making as a survivor but bad in chase. Once you know, you can try and practise these things. Take a chase and run a tile you don't feel comfortable of. Also, play both sides. As a killer you will see how other survivors play around different structures and as a survivor you will notice how other killers mindgame and prioritize.
Don't worry about the game feeling hard on both sides. I'm pretty much in the same boat. DBD is a hard game in general. Just focus on having fun. Eventually you'll get better.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368814#Comment_3368814
How is this different than cenobite or plague though? Both of those killers also require a lot of coordination to beat as well, if nobody does box or the ceno makes the box their priority and nobody contests that nobody will be able to gens and that can happen at 5 gens. If a team isn't on the same page about cleansing plague will just run over a team with access to red vom and if nobody cleanses everyone is playing broken which isn't much different than ignoring the drones. I haven't seen anything that convinces me SM is egregiously worse than either of those killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368844#Comment_3368844
Except everyone did complain about knight a ton especially after Hens released the 1 hour knight game he played on dead dawg. Not to mention all the eruption complaints really boiled down to making 3 gens too strong so I disagree nobody was talking about this before SM. Also you're doing the same fallacy a see a bunch of people do which is assuming mechanical skill is the only type of skill when it's not, game sense and decision making is also a skill and the average DBD player has the game sense of a potato. A lot of videos I'm seeing of people playing against me and other people playing SM boils down to bad decision making whether that's not committing to a gen that was nearly done or respecting the drones too much. Now some of this is match knowledge against SM that nobody has really cuz she just came out and the strategies against her haven't really formed yet and I don't blame anyone for that because those things take time. What does annoy me is when people go straight to "too strong please nerf" instead of actually trying to learn and test things and seeing if it can be beat before doing that. My experience so far is that SM is relatively balanced people just don't wanna actually take the time to learn so I roll my eyes at people complaining when it's very obvious they don't fully understand the killer.
There is no skill involved in walking from gen to gen, resetting drones, kicking gens and occasionaly hitting a survivor without ever committing to a chase. Someone that just installed DBD could do that, if I told them to. It really is that simple.
Game sense is something you use on Pinhead and Doctor for example. Doctor can use his Static Blast to manage Madness and Pinhead can find the box again and again. That is not necessary when kicking gens and resetting drones like a bot.
SM has an insta down. So ignoring the drones, getting exposed, alarming the killer via killer instinct and going down in 1 hit is not exactly an option. Skull Merchant is not a strong killer. She is just poorly designed. Nerfing her would not help with this problem at all. Which is why I don't want her nerfed. I want her reworked. Completely.
She is not as complex as you give her credit for. It all comes down to 3-gen breaking with an extra delay via drones. That is the problem. If I wanted to I could easily drag the game out to be 40 minutes with her. I could lose but I can guarantee that no one will have fun in that game. That's why SM is poorly designed. It is always unfun to play against her because she combines everything nobody likes as a survivor. Zoning, area control, game delay and no actual chase. Apart from many people hating to play her as well for pretty much the same reasons.
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My own survival rate is pretty low. However, we often make it to end game and get someone out and I'm mostly the person who will run at the camping Bubba with noed to try and get that Meg (it's always Megs for some reason) off the hook. I feel like the HUD helps a lot. For example I know that my team mates are almost done on gens so I don't have to greed any pallets. Or I can try and break a potential 3-gen way before it happens.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368736#Comment_3368736
It's a map/perk + skill issue though? Like I consistently see people mention the same maps over and over when talking about SM doing a 3 gen. It seems like people are purposefully bringing themselves to those maps as SM because they know it's much less viable if you get a larger map like Torment Creek or Ironworks. Factor in the fact that the meta is 3 gen based anyway and people were literally already complaining about it before SM ever came out and this is very obviously not an issue exclusive to SM she's just the community's favorite punching bag atm.
People also have zero clue how to play against her as well which is a skill issue. If everyone disarms the drones as soon as she leaves an area she literally cannot keep up her zone and the 3 gen gets broken. This probably is harder on smaller maps but again that's a problem with the map, trying to 3 gen as SM is fairly weak on any average to large sized map against a good team.
If SM wasn't the problem we'd have seen way more complaints about 3-gens before she got released. Only that wasn't case. You had the occasional discussion about Knight an his 3-gen ability but that was it. The complaints about Skull Merchant won't die down just like that. Even when her gens are spread halfway across the map she will still be able to defend them easily. That's how her power works. There is no such thing as skill in this particular playstyle.
You can make all the arguments about skill issues you want. The truth is that holding M1 on a gen takes as much skill as setting drones on gens and kicking them once they have a tiny bit of progress. Which is none at all. There is no skill involved here. It's just patience and coordination. Coordination that solos can never have.
I can make an example of why 3-gens aren't that big of an issue in theory. Just bring 4 toolboxes with BNPs and use them on the last gen. Easy. You see the problem here? That will never happen. SM's 3-gen strength is that ridiculous. You won't win every match but you can make every match miserable, if you set your mind to it. And if you don't SM is a killer with pretty much no power at all.
I agree that some gen spawns are absolutely stupid. But that doesn't mean that every map should be Mother's Dwelling. You need to consider what happens with other killers as well, if you move gens further apart. And for Skull Merchant to be unable to drag out games this long that needs to be a huge distance.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368487#Comment_3368487
Yeah cause screw everyone who likes her lol. You don't like her so now no one should be allowed to play her? I'll make sure before I do anything in DBD I'll come and ask you for permission first to make sure you enjoy it mkay <3
So your suggestion is to keep her this way for the sake of the 10 people that like her and ruin the games of everyone who has to face her? This killer is objectively unhealthy for the game. She needs a rework.
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Both are good ideas. That would at least give her a reason to use her ambush.
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@Pulsar said:
I'm one more 45-minute game away from saying ######### it and I want her to be nuked from orbit.
Ultimately, there's no way to fix her without completely re-designing her. No matter what you buff on her, you buff her ability to hold 3-gens and stall out games for an eternity.
That's a huge design problem.
We don't often agree but you said it perfectly. They can't buff her without buffing her ability to hold 3-gens.
That killer should have never made it past brainstorming. She needs a complete rework.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368486#Comment_3368486
That....hasn't changed? Med-kits and toolboxes have always been very prevalent since Keys were destroyed?
Those Kill Rates are still from the post meta shake-up. We've only really had one significant balance patch since then.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MMR0QHJUUJHT/kill-rates-png.png
A 38.7% escape rate at the HIGHEST MMR. I believe this was also with DH having the longer Endurance duration, iirc.
It has changed. It was extremely uncommon to see the items we do today in a match prior to the reduced grind. Survivors would bring medkits and toolboxes, yes, but neither as many nor as strong as they do now.
These kill rates were published shortly after 6.1.0. Since then, survivors have switched back to DH, do not suicide on hook as much as in the first weeks (thank god for that), survivors and killers have gotten more used to this new meta and survivors got an updated HUD. Until we see some more recent kill rates, this proves nothing. The game has changed since then. Whether you'd like to admit that or not.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367683#Comment_3367683
Stop complaining about tombstone. Stop.
You're right, this isn't 2017 DBD, which was 1v1v1v1v1. 2023 DBD is a 4v1, which is why people shouldn't complain about getting their actions slowed down because their teammates messed up.
ISTG, with how these forums think getting multiple Eruption procs in a game is "abusing Eruption", and the persistent 1v1 mindset that people have regarding balance, it's no wonder the devs don't listen to the forums.
Friend, I did not mention the Tombstone. But now that you did, I'll say it's an outdated mechanic as well. At least the Tombstone Piece shouldn't exist in it's current form. Tombstone is more or less fine. It's pretty obvious when it's in the game so there is some counterplay to it.
You make it sound like the Tombstone addons have the same effect as Thanatophobia. "Get hit and slow your team down." But it's more like "Get hit and instantly die." At least the Tombstone Piece has to go eventually. You can instantly kill one person at 5 gens remaining.
By the way you're completely missing the point. I said Michael Myers in his current state doesn't fit into the game anymore. He is outdated. A great early game for him is still a bad early game for any other killer. His tier 3 isn't all that powerful, if you can't use it to snow ball and at some point his power will literally run out. His faster vault is becoming increasingly more worthless because most maps are so stacked with pallets that he can't really capitalize on it anyway. His tier 1 is the worst debuff to a killer immaginable. He's undetetable but moves at 105%. That might be useful on Lery's and Midwich but then you get sent to Ormont against a group that knows what they're doing. He needs a rework. His base kit and addons should be looked at.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368471#Comment_3368471
The number of items hasn't changed.
My own personal kill rate has gone up. Kill rates across the board have also gone up.
Uhuh. Sure. It's 4 items every game. Mostly medkits / toolboxes. Mostly with iri addons. That did change. Before 6.1.0 that was considered very rare. Now it's literally every game.
If your games aren't like this, then consider yourself lucky.
Also how do you know the actual kill rates? The last official stats we had are more than half a year old.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368166#Comment_3368166
Oh?
So you'd rather go back to Old Haddonfield with old DH?
The game is 10x easier for Killers now.
I'd trade old Haddonfield for Garden of Misery any day. At least Haddonfield had to be played exactly right to live up to it's reputation.
Also keep in mind that after 6.1.0 many things have changed. Including the amount of strong items, addons and offerings per game as well as the new survivor HUD. I don't think the argument: "Killer is easier than ever." holds true now.
A year ago I did better in my matches. Mostly because I (as far as I can remember) I never had a match that ended in 4 minutes (aside from cheaters). That isn't a rare occurance for me now.
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She will get a rework eventually. That is inevitable. The devs cannot ignore this issue forever and it won't go away on its own.
Then again, I was almost convinced that this entire patch was one gigantic meme. So maybe that's the copium speaking.
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Good for you. It's nice that at least some people do enjoy her.
Objectively though, I agree with @Pulsar that Skull Merchant is poorly designed. Her biggest strength is 3 genning. That will never be fun to play as or against for a large part of this game's playerbase.
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Oni is fine. It can be hard to get the first hit but after that you're good. If you have trouble with that, I recommend Lethal Pursuer + Corrupt Intervention.
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You forgot 12-hooking. Many survivors don't appreciate that as well. I guess it's because you don't always go for the person that wants to be chased then.
I'd say you probably have to chase the survivor that wants your attention. But don't you dare outplay them. Some of these people will try to set a new world record for the fastest dc in DBD.
TL;DR: You cannot make people happy.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368266#Comment_3368266
Did they ever really fix them?
Their second attempt at fixing that game breaking bug seemed to have worked. At least for me.