Xernoton
Xernoton
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671746#Comment_3671746
Huntress and Trickster can also efficiently camp with their powers. They circumvent the anti-face camp mechanic as well.
That is a seperate issue though. I agree that something should be done about this but it's not like a Huntress can stop you from getting the unhook. The cooldown between hatchets is too long.
For Trickster it's technically the same. The issue of impossible unhooks doesn't exist for them (besides basement). You will get the unhook, so one could argue that there is no need for further adjustments because this was what the devs set out to fix.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671889#Comment_3671889
Say all of that to my teammates. As soon as I‘m in chase there is nothing left.
The jungle gyms often spawn with the most trashy loops ever and most of them don‘t even have a window.
The main building is strong, but not that strong. It‘s so easy to outplay, because everyone thinks they are safe.
Shure there are some good loops, but break 5 pallets and the outside main area is trash.
You don‘t have to agree, but for me this map is so easy as killer and as survivor there is nothing. Everything was better before the rework (for survivors).
Then it's your team mates being bad. It's that simple. Even old Haddonfield was no big deal, if the survivors played really bad.
The jungle gyms often spawn with the most trashy loops ever and most of them don‘t even have a window.
Every jungle gym has a window. Otherwise it wouldn't be a jungle gym. The other loops around there are what you call filler loops. They typically don't have windows. But that doesn't matter in this case because you have so many of them and almost all of them are beyond ridiculous in strength. You have long tiles there that rival the ones on Cowshed. These are god pallets. As in "just stand still and wait. You can easily react to anything the killer does because you see them the entire time."
The main building is strong, but not that strong. It‘s so easy to outplay, because everyone thinks they are safe.
We're talking about the strongest main building in the game. You have a god window and a god pallet. Both of which are guaranteed to spawn. You also have another window, that is pretty weak on its own but can be chained into the god window. This creates a loop, that cannot be mind gamed and easily takes a minute or more to be blocked (depends on the intitial distance). It can also be reused over and over again because there is no way to permanently deal with these windows.
Shure there are some good loops, but break 5 pallets and the outside main area is trash.
We are talking about a map with no less than 15 pallets. This would already be a pretty high number, if they were all weak and there wasn't anything else. But you have the gazebo, the chance for a stronger version of the TL wall (which is already pretty good, if you know how to use it), the shack, the car park and the main building. All of which can be recycled endlessly.
You don‘t have to agree, but for me this map is so easy as killer and as survivor there is nothing. Everything was better before the rework (for survivors).
You're right. I don't have to agree. Especially since you're objectively wrong and the map objectively became stronger with the rework since these changes included the only unsafe pallets on that map to be reworked into long tiles.
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@jonifire said:
Garden of joy is killer sided. It‘s so easy to 4K there. The only good thing for survivors on this map is the main building everything else is just a place to die.
What part of it do you mean? The main building that is almost an infinite and can easily buy you a few minutes (repeatedly) in chase, the long tiles, the car park in the corner that cannot be mind gamed, the shack that neatly connects into other filler loops and a maze tile or the gazebo that is also not can't be mind gamed?
There is no way this map is killer sided. There literally is no place on that map where you'd just die. You always get to another filler loop. The majority of which is not just strong but ungodly strong. GoJ is littered with safe zones. I really don't know how you'd manage to find a dead zone anywhere but behind the main building.
Play a custom game and equip Zanshin Tactics. That will show you how perfectly lined up all of these loops are and how many of them actually spawn.
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I mean, imagine playing Legion against 4 Megs. Then you'd always be "W-ing to the same injured survivor".
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So both sides had something to hate. Great...
Regardless, I agree. Garden of Misery is horrible. They reworked it and somehow made it even stronger than before. That's kind of impressive to be honest. I would have changed many things but replacing weaker filler loops with long tiles was pretty low on the list.
Something that can work on GoJ is only focussing on one half of the map and not crossing the streat. It's boring and not exactly the desired way to play considering that we have an anti 3 gen mechanic but it works better than playing normal. You cannot chase through the main building anyway and with the amount of good filler loops that can spawn across the map, you're basically forced to play territorial.
Before the AFC you'd at least have some nice spots to face camp survivors but not even that is allowed anymore. 😉
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@glitchboi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671629#Comment_3671629
Black Grease could probably be combined with Mother's Helpers (as in not only does it apply when getting stunned but you can get it while blinded). It was pretty fun to get stunned and blinded at once and getting instasaw back, had a lot of fun with it with Two Can Play and Enduring, but the amount of crap you have to do in order for the two to take effect at once required you to throw the game. Combining both add-ons is the way to go.
Big Buckle was obsolete with Overheat, but with a 24m terror radius during Overdrive there could be some interesting potential with Apex Muffler and Monitor & Abuse. I'm a big fan of decreased terror radiuses!
I don't think Pighouse Gloves would be bad, you'd still be better off with destroying the pallet with your chainsaw and running Enduring. The main appeal of it was the faster generator breaking and the built-in Enduring. I think it'd be pretty fun with Overdrive.
I'm honestly not sure, what to make of your suggestion for Big Buckle. This could be useful but then you'd also have situations in which you use the chainsaw just barely out outside of the 16m range with the Apex Muffler and M&M and get a down because the survivor has less than 1 seconds time to react before they are hit (considering they'd also need to get moving). It could be fun for the killer but as a survivor I would not want to be on the receiving end.
I used to combine Pighouse Gloves with Spirit Fury and Enduring on occasion. It was pretty funny but with overdrive this would be a bit... Over the top. Maybe if they reduced the numbers but the full effect sounds like too much. Picture this: You get overdrive, they drop the pallet, you break it 20% faster (44% faster with Brutal Strength) and then you revv the chainsaw and down them. That doesn't sound very fair to me. Even worse with Spirit Fury + Enduring.
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Agreed. Although for starters, I'd appreciate an update on the general tutorials. There is no mention of the anti 3 gen mechanic or the AFC.
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Yeah, I can definitely see how a 3 seconds stun that also has the survivor stagger is enough to combat tunneling. I mean, nobody would dare tunnel a survivor out of fear of the 3 seconds DS. Oh, wait...
We already a 5 seconds DS before and it was mostly fine. As long as it deactivates in end game (and maybe disables flashlights and flashbangs for as long as it's active) it should be fine. In fact, I doubt it wouldn't even be enough. Because we'd need to have every survivor run it again or the threat of DS would not be enough to stop tunneling before it happens. And if I'm already through the DS, then I might as well take advantage and tunnel that guy out.
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In my opinion the problem is less Background Player and more how wonky flashlight saves and flashbang saves can be. Did you know, that you can literally glitch yourself into the killer's character model while they are picking up to drop a flashbang and get the save with nothing they can do? I found that out a few weeks ago.
I also had a survivor that got a flashlight save on me (thanks to Background Player), when I staired at a wall and couldn't even see the beam yesterday. It did not feel great.
Other than that, I think Background Player is fine. Annoying for sure, but let's be honest; a survivor perk that's not annoying for the killer isn't good.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671728#Comment_3671728
Yes. It’s much easier to run from Clown now that there’s no distortion to the intoxication tonic. The survivor is slightly slower but that’s it. They won’t run into objects anymore because they can literally see clearly.
While using Pinky Finger to camp (which one could still do with the anti-face camp mechanic) is a cheesy thing to do, I’ve consistently believed such strategies are fair game unless the developers patch it out. I understand people dislike dealing with it and Clown in general but Billy has a built-in insta down, Bubba has the same, Ghostface does as well. Not sure why Clown couldn’t keep his powerful add-on.
The difference with BIlly is that you will get the unhook fairly easy. Dodge once or start the animation before you go down and there's almost no way he can prevent it. Ghostface would already need to have you on 99%. Otherwise, he can't really prevent the unhook either. Clown on the other hand could do that. This is my main problem with this addon.
Bubba has a similar issue, that's true. Although at least with Bubba, you'd expect it. 😂
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@humanbeing1704 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671721#Comment_3671721
You could argue urban evasion makes avoiding hags traps quicker
Fair. I didn't think of that.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671720#Comment_3671720
One must factor in travel time when comparing the time investment of Strength in Shadows to SC + BK. That appears to be missing from your equation—likely because that unknown distance time could be 2 seconds to 2 minutes. Either way, this isn’t a variable SC-BK has to deal with.
I actually really liked the Pinky Finger add-on as it was. I dunno why the devs decided to nerf it. And I despise the change to his intoxication effect. Clown was one killer I could basically destroy an entire team with rather easily. He really got a raw deal this update.
One must factor in travel time when comparing the time investment of Strength in Shadows to SC + BK.
This is of course true but I said above that it's a more situational perk (not reliable). When it comes to raw numbers you can heal yourself fairly quick with a single perk and get aura reading on top of that. It's nowhere near meta but it's not so bad that it will never see usage.
That appears to be missing from your equation—likely because that unknown distance time could be 2 seconds to 2 minutes.
That is one reason for it. The other is, that we're comparing a combination of 2 perks with 1 perk. You can't really say what is stronger because that massively depends on the game. In one game, you could be on Rotten Fields and always get value from it, the next you're on RPD and cannot make your way to the basement all the time. So both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be fine with buffing the perk a bit more but I think it's fairly decent overall.
I actually really liked the Pinky Finger add-on as it was. I dunno why the devs decided to nerf it.
I'll be honest, I hate this addon. The best use for it is to run after a survivor and then shove a bottle up their arse. That is not really fun and it certainly doesn't feel good to play against. Although, the anti face camping mechanic removed the most problematic aspect from it, so I guess it wasn't as bad as it used to.
And I despise the change to his intoxication effect.
You're referring to the visual effect, right? Does that really make a big difference? I haven't tested him on the PTB, so I can't tell.
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I used them for about 2 years and I'm still here. The devs have stated, that they won't actively ban you for using them. Should the anti cheat however detect this and ban you anyway, they would not be able to help you.
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Urban Evasion. I cannot think of a single situation in which it would be better than Fixated and just walking. When you need to crouch to dodge an attack, then the extra speed is useless and when it comes to speed without running, Fixated is superior.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671587#Comment_3671587
Clown's Pinky Finger add-on did not change at all? Clowns buffs never intended to buff this add-on, so they just brought it back to normal version. So nothing changed about it.
Sable perks buffed from meh level to meh level.
SC + Botany is still stronger than this basement heal perk.
Deliverance is still stronger than unhook yourself from basement hooks perks.
And her last perk is still terrible. You are removing 50% charge ( because you will only want to finish 5 gens, so 20% charge on other 2 gens is just waste ) for 2 minutes. And you are staying broken for rest of the match. This perk is still terrible bad.
But yeah, lets act like BHVR actually gave survivors something useful with this chapter which is not true.
The Pinky Finger was nerfed actually. They reduced the max amount of bottles with this addon to 1 (similar to iri head). So it doesn't matter what other addons you use, it will still only be 1 bottle. I honestly don't have an issue with that though. This addon is simply stupid and should be reworked.
Wicked is a situational but pretty good perk when it comes to that. I'd really like to know if it also works when you're in second stage. That would be pretty cool. Although it has the problem, that you can never really predict it's usefulness. One match it might be insane, the next it does nothing. The aura vision is pretty powerful though. So it may work as an anti tunnel perk.
Strength In Shadows is not bad actually. It's not the most reliable perk either but it has a fairly decent effect and the aura vision is again pretty strong. 10 seconds is a lot and especially in a SWF, this is quite disgusting.
Weaving Spiders is very disappointing though. They really want to keep this whole basement focus so badly and I just can't understand why. The effect is good but the time investment and the extra downside just break it.
Also, I'm pretty sure SC + Botany Knowledge is actually weaker than Strength In Shadows. With Self-Care you take roughly 45 seconds to heal yourself. Botany Knowledge increases the speed by 50% so we get: t = 45 seconds / (100% + 50%) = 45 seconds x 2/3 = 30 seconds. On the other hand you have SIS with a 70% healing speed, which brings you to: t = 16c / (0.7c * s^(-1)) = 22.86 seconds.
I disagree that survivors got nothing useful with this chapter. Could her perks be a bit better? Definitely. But are they as bad as you made it sound? I don't think so. They certainly have some use and a SWF can definitely work with all the aura reading. In solo queue, I reckon Wicked could be a useful anti tunnel tool but that kind of depends on the killer.
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@glitchboi said:
Many of Overheat Billy's add-ons were actually cool and could have worked well with Overdrive Billy, Big Buckle and Pighouse Gloves for instance. I would also like to see Mother's Helpers and Black Grease return alongside Leafy Mash, all of which could replace the obsolete dissipation add-ons.
Big Buckle was completely worthless. Becoming a M1 killer with a 24 metres TR is pretty bad. Otherwise Myers would be considered a damn strong killer.
Pighouse Gloves were somewhat fun when they still worked (before that last overheat adjustment) but with overdrive this would never be possible. I mean, you'd basically guarantee that they either go down immediately or get hit. With nothing that survivor can do. Why would you want the Black Grease to return though? This addon was so bad.
Leafy Mash could be combined with the the Filthy Slippers honestly. That would be pretty fun.
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@NueLotusTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671614#Comment_3671614
If 3 people are dead before one gen is completed or 2 people DC before one gen is completed even though Ai are useful. Or if there's 6 hooks before 2 gens. That's a dead match at that rate it's die or take on the chase so the others can do gens if they aren't hiding.
You're incredibly toxic for no reason. You're getting pissy with me because I'm being realistic. ._.
You need to chill.
[...] 2 people DC before one gen is completed even though Ai are useful.
You realise that removing dc penalties would only increase the likelihood of something like that, right? The other 2 situations aren't a reason to dc either. The match will be over in just a few seconds (maybe a minute) anyway. I fail to see the problem with just playing it out.
You're incredibly toxic for no reason. You're getting pissy with me because I'm being realistic. ._.
I don't think I am. I'm just honest. Dcs and hook suicides are to blame for so many matches not being fun. And you're the one that wants this to happen free of penalty.
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Who decides the match is dead? Is it the guy that got hooked first at 5 gens? The Nea, that thought she was real smart with her flashlight only for the killer to down her as well? The Meg that is too busy teabagging to actually loop?
This was not addressed to you personally but more in the sense of all of us. I don't care what your personal criteria for a "dead match" are. Any time the dc penalty is disabled, we see a bunch of people that disconnect for whatever reason they can come up with. And I mean any reason. Losing? Dc. Bad team mate? Dc. Good killer? Dc. Certain perks? Dc. Certain map? Dc. Outplayed? Dc.
The only time they'll stay to play the match is when they easily stomp their opponent. This however goes against what many of us consider a fun match. So basically they ruin the game for everyone else. You're even worse, if you suicide on hook regularly because you can't even take the penalty. If you really can't handle anything that you don't approve of, then play a single player game. In a PvP there will always be something you don't like. Most of us however, don't like this attitude.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671202#Comment_3671202
I appreciate the effort you put into that. I really do. I know calculating the numbers and just writing all that took ages.
Aww, thanks. 😊
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671162#Comment_3671162
No, them camping a pallet doesn't matter. As I clarified a few messages down, I don't consider them camping a pallet to be a mistake or a bad call. It was a good play! If they'd followed that up with countering the drone, this would've been a perfectly reasonably done chase. My point in bringing it up is that standing still at the pallet is irrelevant because it's not the point in this clip where they actually needed to just counter the drones.
As for how precise you can be... very? You know where the beam is because you can see where it's projected, and you know which direction it's going. We, the audience of the clip, might have a hard time figuring out where the right moment to crouch is, but that's because the survivor isn't looking behind them to actually get that information. Even if it is really difficult to do it on the fly, it's the kind of thing you keep an eye out for and practice so you know the timings.
As for them getting hit before their next pallet, I just don't believe that. When they briefly turn their camera as they get hit by the claw trap, we can see that Skull Merchant is still behind the desk on the other side of the pallet. The killer is fully on the other side of the room, and we know that this survivor has at least some resources close by depending on which variant of RPD it is. Crouching for half a second isn't going to let Merchant cross the entire room and get them before they slip out - you could partially walk off Exhaustion in this scenario if you're confident.
I'd also like to point out that even if the choice really is just "be scanned or get hit", the survivor STILL misplayed, because the M1 hit is vastly preferable to getting claw trapped. There's just no way of reading this clip that isn't the survivor messing up somewhere.
As for how precise you can be... very? You know where the beam is because you can see where it's projected, and you know which direction it's going.
The problem is that you only see a very inaccurate display of the beam. You see both of the lights on the drone but it's impossible to tell where exactly the beam is. You can make an educated guess but the the fact of the matter is, that you'd need to make sure not to get hit, which would force you stand still slightly longer than necessary.
So let's say you can time it so well, that you only need to stand still for 0.3 seconds - I already consider this quite unrealistic but for the sake of the argument, I'll use numbers that favor you. That is 1.2 metres of distance that you lose. That's not too bad. But then you still need to accelerate again to get to full speed. This takes another 0.25 seconds with a linear accelation of 10 m*s^(-2). Integrating this twice, tells us how much distance a suvivor would make during that time. So we get: s = 1/2 * a * t^2 = 1/2 * 10 m*s^(-2) * 0.25^2 = 1/32 * 10m ~ 0.31m. Normally however, you'd get 1 metre of distance. So that's another 0.69m lost. Combined, we get 1.89 metres distance less. Let's assume the survivor somehow manages to mitigate this a little and we get 1.8 metres of lost distance.
This equates to 3 seconds less the killer needs to catch up. Sounds reasonable. Until you factor in what happens during those 3 seconds. The survivor still moves at full speed, so that's 12 metres of total ground, that they cannot cover. This is a lot and can easily make the difference between getting to the pallet / window or going down. Keep in mind, I also do not consider any movement modifiers the killer could use such as Haste from Claw Traps.
We, the audience of the clip, might have a hard time figuring out where the right moment to crouch is, but that's because the survivor isn't looking behind them to actually get that information.
This is incorrect. He looks to the drone for a short moment right before it injures him. That is what I looked at and honestly, to me it looked like he still had a bit of time. Obviously, what I think doesn't matter but it goes to show, that it's not quite so easy to figure out where exactly the beam actually is.
As for them getting hit before their next pallet, I just don't believe that. When they briefly turn their camera as they get hit by the claw trap, we can see that Skull Merchant is still behind the desk on the other side of the pallet
The stun takes 2 seconds. Then we have the table, that is about 2 metres long (kind of hard to tell, probably a bit less), which the SM walks around. So she has to catch up 2 * 4m - 1.89 + 4m + 1m, if we assume that SM chooses the worst path to catch up. That's roughly 11.1 metres of distance. 8.3 m of which the killer has to catch up before they can hit a lunge at max range. This takes about 14 seconds. A little more because SM needs to accelerate again. So let's round it up to 16 seconds. There are exactly 5 possible pallet spawns, that she could have reached in that time. One of which was in the corridor next to the room but she took a path that would allow SM to intercept. So we have 4 pallets left. 2 downstairs and 2 upstairs on the outside.
Typically only 1 of the 2 upstairs will spawn. But yeah, you can get to either of them. However, both of them are quite secluded and only the one closer to the staircase gives you a chance to escape that place, if you manage to stun the killer. So this plays into SM's strength again.
So you do get to 1 out of 4 possible pallets after all. I apologise for my previous assumption. You're in a bad spot as a survivor but not quite as bad as I presumed.
I'd also like to point out that even if the choice really is just "be scanned or get hit", the survivor STILL misplayed, because the M1 hit is vastly preferable to getting claw trapped. There's just no way of reading this clip that isn't the survivor messing up somewhere.
I don't know, if I agree with that. Keep in mind, that you'll be claw trapped in the next loop then, which will give her extra speed but more importantly hinder you by 10% for 3 seconds.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671162#Comment_3671162
No, them camping a pallet doesn't matter. As I clarified a few messages down, I don't consider them camping a pallet to be a mistake or a bad call. It was a good play! If they'd followed that up with countering the drone, this would've been a perfectly reasonably done chase. My point in bringing it up is that standing still at the pallet is irrelevant because it's not the point in this clip where they actually needed to just counter the drones.
As for how precise you can be... very? You know where the beam is because you can see where it's projected, and you know which direction it's going. We, the audience of the clip, might have a hard time figuring out where the right moment to crouch is, but that's because the survivor isn't looking behind them to actually get that information. Even if it is really difficult to do it on the fly, it's the kind of thing you keep an eye out for and practice so you know the timings.
As for them getting hit before their next pallet, I just don't believe that. When they briefly turn their camera as they get hit by the claw trap, we can see that Skull Merchant is still behind the desk on the other side of the pallet. The killer is fully on the other side of the room, and we know that this survivor has at least some resources close by depending on which variant of RPD it is. Crouching for half a second isn't going to let Merchant cross the entire room and get them before they slip out - you could partially walk off Exhaustion in this scenario if you're confident.
I'd also like to point out that even if the choice really is just "be scanned or get hit", the survivor STILL misplayed, because the M1 hit is vastly preferable to getting claw trapped. There's just no way of reading this clip that isn't the survivor messing up somewhere.
As for how precise you can be... very? You know where the beam is because you can see where it's projected, and you know which direction it's going.
The problem is that you only see a very inaccurate display of the beam. You see both of the lights on the drone but it's impossible to tell where exactly the beam is. You can make an educated guess but the the fact of the matter is, that you'd need to make sure not to get hit, which would force you stand still slightly longer than necessary.
So let's say you can time it so well, that you only need to stand still for 0.3 seconds - I already consider this quite unrealistic but for the sake of the argument, I'll use numbers that favor you. That is 1.2 metres of distance that you lose. That's not too bad. But then you still need to accelerate again to get to full speed. This takes another 0.25 seconds with a linear accelation of 10 m*s^(-2). Integrating this twice, tells us how much distance a suvivor would make during that time. So we get: s = 1/2 * a * t^2 = 1/2 * 10 m*s^(-2) * 0.25^2 = 1/32 * 10m ~ 0.31m. Normally however, you'd get 1 metre of distance. So that's another 0.69m lost. Combined, we get 1.89 metres distance less. Let's assume the survivor somehow manages to mitigate this a little and we get 1.8 metres of lost distance.
This equates to 3 seconds less the killer needs to catch up. Sounds reasonable. Until you factor in what happens during those 3 seconds. The survivor still moves at full speed, so that's 12 metres of total ground, that they cannot cover. This is a lot and can easily make the difference between getting to the pallet / window or going down. Keep in mind, I also do not consider any movement modifiers the killer could use such as Haste from Claw Traps.
We, the audience of the clip, might have a hard time figuring out where the right moment to crouch is, but that's because the survivor isn't looking behind them to actually get that information.
This is incorrect. He looks to the drone for a short moment right before it injures him. That is what I looked at and honestly, to me it looked like he still had a bit of time. Obviously, what I think doesn't matter but it goes to show, that it's not quite so easy to figure out where exactly the beam actually is.
As for them getting hit before their next pallet, I just don't believe that. When they briefly turn their camera as they get hit by the claw trap, we can see that Skull Merchant is still behind the desk on the other side of the pallet
The stun takes 2 seconds. Then we have the table, that is about 2 metres long (kind of hard to tell, probably a bit less), which the SM walks around. So she has to catch up 2 * 4m - 1.89 + 4m + 1m, if we assume that SM chooses the worst path to catch up. That's roughly 11.1 metres of distance. 8.3 m of which the killer has to catch up before they can hit a lunge at max range. This takes about 14 seconds. A little more because SM needs to accelerate again. Let's round it up to 16 seconds. There are exactly 5 possible pallet spawns, that she could have reached in that time. One of which was in the corridor next to the room but she took a path that would allow SM to intercept. So we have 4 pallets left. 2 downstairs and 2 upstairs on the outside.
Typically only 1 of the 2 upstairs will spawn. But yeah, you can get to either of them. However, both of them are quite secluded and only the one closer to the staircase gives you a chance to escape that place, if you manage to stun the killer. So this plays into SM's strength again.
So you do get to 1 out of 4 possible pallets after all. I apologise for my previous assumption. You're in a bad spot as a survivor but not quite as bad as I presumed.
I'd also like to point out that even if the choice really is just "be scanned or get hit", the survivor STILL misplayed, because the M1 hit is vastly preferable to getting claw trapped. There's just no way of reading this clip that isn't the survivor messing up somewhere.
I don't know, if I agree with that. Keep in mind, that you'll be claw trapped in the next loop then, which will give her extra speed but more importantly hinder you by 10% for 3 seconds.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671037#Comment_3671037
Oh, come on, man.
That survivor standing still wasn't doing it to counter the drone, they were camping the pallet to drop it and get the stun. The point where they need to counter it is as they're running away- you can see they only get clipped just before they get out of the radius, so they crouch for a split second there and then keep running. That is what countering the drone in this situation would look like.
This is agonising, the clip being posted shows the most cut-and-dry obvious scenario where crouching the drone is the absolute best call. You already have distance, the killer isn't closing that distance immediately because they just got stunned and they have to navigate around an object, and you're only in danger at the very edge of the radius so you only have to do it once in a position where you've already made distance so it's less damaging to you.
Based purely on their movements - and again, I'm not psychic, they could have mistimed the rotation - it doesn't look like that survivor is paying any respect to the drone at all. If someone runs in a direct straight line against Huntress and gets downed, even after getting a stun on that killer, they're misplaying. It's the same here.
That survivor standing still wasn't doing it to counter the drone, they were camping the pallet to drop it and get the stun
Does that matter? If he had not camped the pallet, then the drone would have scanned him. So he applied the correct counterplay on that part. It makes no difference, if it was intentional or not. In order to counter the drone the second time, they would have needed to know where the beam was. But that's pretty much impossible because the drone was in stealth mode. I mean, how precise can you calculate the beam when you only see the general direction it is projected?
Had the drone not been in stealth mode, then the only way to counter it would have been standing still because they were already so far away, that crouching couldn't have worked. You play more Skull Merchant than me, so you probably know that. Now, that little moment of them standing still would have cost them a lot of distance. So it's fair to assume that the Skull Merchant would have gotten a M1 before they could have made it to the next pallet.
No matter how you look at it, Meg was screwed the moment she got there. Even if we were to assume that there was a possibility to counter the drone, it's just not realistic. You'll eiter be scanned or get hit. There is simply no way to accurately time the crouch or stand still. I have watched the video multiple times because I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anything. To me it looked like the drone shouldn't have scanned him yet because it didn't rotate far enough and I doubt anyone could accurately guess where extactly the beam is.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670900#Comment_3670900
Pig shines at low to mid MMR where killers more commonly harass survivors with the RBTs because that’s easy and it works. I don’t believe people who enjoy or want strategic (as in requiring a lot of game sense, killer insight, or macro-micro skill) gamplay turn to this killer for that. Pig is a noob stomper & solo queue destroyer not unlike Pinhead, Sadako, and Freddy and yes even with her changes she remains good at that. But one thing about the devs is that they’ll try to create the illusion of caring about oppressive playstyles with half-cocked bandaids that don’t fully prevent or block that play style. They basically try to walk the line & so you get a pig who appears ‘nerfed’ in a way but can still do the awful, unfun thing she’s extremely good at doing to solo queue and newbie survivors. Does that make sense?
I feel like I have failed to explain the actual problem somehow. So I'll repeat the main problem. All of the strategies, that we both agree are pretty unfun and have too little counterplay have not been nerfed in any way. They remain exactly as strong as they were before. For the survivor that is tunneled, it really doesn't matter if they have 2.5 minutes to get rid of the trap or 3 minutes. They can't do that anyway and the timer is paused because the killer is chasing them. The same applies to UW on Pig. It really doesn't matter, if the timer is 2.5 minutes or 3 minutes and the removal of the boxes' auras doesn't matter either because you find the survivor with UW.
Only the more strategic component is affected. So it's not a good change in any way. After all, the less ways there are to play Pig, the more you push them towards the remaining strategies. Meaning, instead of combating the unfun play styles they incentivise them. Do you think that is a good thing? I don't.
hey basically try to walk the line & so you get a pig who appears ‘nerfed’ in a way but can still do the awful, unfun thing she’s extremely good at doing to solo queue and newbie survivors.
This is pretty much exactly what I tried to explain. So instead of the changes they have made, we'd need something that actually addresses her issues. The Pig mains had suggested some changes to do just that. Sadly they weren't applied.
It's kind of weird to me that we're even arguing at this point when it seems that we are of the exact same opinion. There are unhealthy play styles on Pig that should be nerfed. These nerfs however don't achieve that goal. Instead they nerf other play styles that are more skillful, unique and healthy.
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EZ clap baby survivor. Noob. Git gud. Skill issue.
This is exactly why people don't like to play against her.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670266#Comment_3670266
I understand your perspective but nevertheless it is an extremely common playstyle for this killer—because it works. Tunneling a vulnerable survivor out who is unable to participate in the objective is more efficient than spreading pressure. It’s just like the Sadako condemned strategy, really: while it’s not the way the character is meant to be played it catapults her kill rates because it offers no real counter play. Maybe it doesn’t work so well with high level players but low to mid where most players fall, Pig’s ability to harass survivors with RBTs cleans house. I’ve done it myself a few times. It’s cheap, easy, and virtually guarantees a 4K. In my experience players will prioritize trying to remove the head trap over anything else. And if you keep pushing them off the boxes or even slug them, they become desperate and essentially throw the game or simply die to the trap.
I understand your perspective but nevertheless it is an extremely common playstyle for this killer—because it works.
I made my point clear on what I think is more efficient. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
However, this is the part that still works. This wasn't nerfed. Everything else was. So really we are both not on opposite sides but on the same. I would like this strategy to become less popular but nerfing her normal play style (occasionally interrupting a survivor to steal their time) is not the way to do it. You don't need to see boxes and you don't need the 2.5 minutes timer over the 3 minutes to make this work because you only use the very base mechanics of a M1 killer (and maybe her ambush around loops).
while it’s not the way the character is meant to be played it catapults her kill rates because it offers no real counter play.
This is a dangerous claim to make. Because the devs have never said anything in that regard and you could make the same claim with pretty much every strategy you don't like. Until the devs tell us: "This is the way the game is meant to be played and everything else is tolerated at best." this doesn't work. We really don't know how each killer is meant to be played.
I reckon, everything that's not against the rules in any way, is considered the way the game is meant to be played and this is something that I like about DBD. You have a lot of different ways to play.
In my experience players will prioritize trying to remove the head trap over anything else. And if you keep pushing them off the boxes or even slug them, they become desperate and essentially throw the game or simply die to the trap.
I agree. This was the exact problem with a 3 minutes timer. You have too much time to do other stuff, which is amplified by the fact that the Pig player will no longer know where to go to interrupt you, so the trap becomes a side objective. This is what I argued against @Aven_Fallen.
So in short, they nerfed her more skillful play style while keeping the problematic ones just as they are. You can still walk around with scream perks and achieve the same results as before and you can still follow the same survivor until they die. But you cannot play the long game anymore and pressure the entire team until the survivor with an active trap has to go for an unhook and then harass them once or twice on boxes (keep in mind, they won't follow you around for long because the timer is stopped) to get a kill and turn the game in your favor.
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The standard answer to every problem survivors have with killers is "use that perk".
That's the entire point of perks though. To fix different issues you may or may not encounter. When killers aren't good in chase (basically all M1 killers), then they use chase perks to help them out (like STBFL), when they can't find survivors, then they use then they use information perks, when matches are too (pretty much always) fast they use slowdown perks. The same goes for survivors. If all of these issues didn't exist to begin with, then there would be no point in even having all these different perks.
Tunneling has become so much of an issue (like face camping previously), that there is pretty much no way around DS. You'll always have to use it in every game and even then, the chances the killer will tunnel through aren't low. Even a 5 seconds DS wouldn't fix that. This is why I think, that there needs to be some kind of base kit adjustment (on both sides) to combat tunneling on top of the DS buff. The entire match should not depend on 1 single perk. This is the main difference I see between tunneling and pretty much every other killer strategy. At least for now.
Tunneling never has been normal.
I agree with that in some sense. But when one strategy becomes the most used strategy, then it becomes normal. Everything else is outside the norm. That is what I tried to say. Unfortunately this is what tunneling has become.
It is the most unfun way to play dbd as killer and as survivor.
This is a peronal opinion and though I agree, it cannot be used as a general argument. There are survivors that don't mind getting tunneled (some even seem to like it) and there are killers that really don't care either. We have no data that would support this claim of tunneling being the most unfun to play style.
I am pretty sure the dev's will put an end to it at some point and then all people who did nothing but tunneling realize that they are putt in their place because they will start to lose a ton of matches because all they ever did was tunneling instead of learning how to mindgame, zone, defend or use their killer power to it's full extend.
That is one possible outcome. However, depending on how strong their solution to tunneling will be and how much it can be exploited, we might see even the last few killers that don't tunnel change their opinions. I don't know how long you have played but the problem with pre 6.1.0 DS was that survivors often used to force killers to tunnel. If DS became even stronger, then this would happen more often and it would certainly lead to many killers doubling down on tunneling.
I said it before and I'll say it again. If DS became a 10 seconds stun, I would either slug all survivors every game or I would tunnel relentlessly. If I have to eat a DS anyway, it might as well be on my terms. At least then I'd actually benefit from it being out of the way.
So what exactly is your guys problem with the statement that killers can ruin a match too? It almost looks like I touched a nerve here.
Then it seems you missed the point of my previous post. There are definitely things a killer could do to ruin the game for me as a survivor. Like playing Skull Merchant. However, not everyone has my standards for a pleasant game and while I am willing to play the game even if I don't like how it's going, there are a lot more people out there that will simply stop playing. In my personal opinion most killers are fun to face but I am in the minority with this. There is a video that explains it pretty well. This is obviously no official data, so it should be taken with a grain of salt but if even 15% of the players would dc when they don't like the killer, then we'd have a serious issue.
There are a lot more reasons why someone would disconnect, mind you and with a ratio of 4:1, the probability of a survivor disconnecting in a match is 4 times as high (probably higher, considering the many reasons some will find to deam the game unplayable) as the killer disconnecting. However, this always ruins the game for everyone else. Bots are no replacement for an actual player.
As @Emeal l said, it's literally the killer's job to ruin the survivors' game and vice versa. Not everyone will be salty enough to dc simply because they aren't going to have an easy match but it's still something to keep in mind.
You can't deny the fact that almost every killer in dbd is tunneling currently and/or uses a full meta build.
Why would I deny that? This is true. The same goes for survivors. You can't deny the fact that almost all survivors gen rush now with a full meta build. This is basically the same claim from a killer's perspective and it is just as true. So if we allow players to dc when the killer tunnels, then we'd also allow the killer to dc when survivors gen rush. Both of which happen in almost every game. So it's fair to say, that disconnects would become increasingly more prevalent with your suggestion and more games are ruined.
So if a survivor is unfun or toxic, you can kill him.
You mean tunneling? Yeah, that's an option. Although I thought we agreed, that tunneling shouldn't be as effective as it currently is. Also, there is a way to annoy killers that makes it pretty hard to tunnel you. Stealthing all game without doing objectives. I've seen this a few times and though I consider myself quite patient when it comes to DBD, I am very much on verge of disconnecting after 10 minutes of no interaction whatsoever. This is pretty much holding the game hostage but it's still in the game.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670099#Comment_3670099
Xernotron, tunneing by any means (turning the game into 3v1 ASAP) is the most efficient way to win. Pig has a novel way of doing it, but it’s still tunneling which is META.
For Pig, it's not the most efficient way. Because she has a power that best works when spreading pressure. Running after that same survivor the entire time (tunneling) does not allow her to benefit from her power. The timer stops, which I already mentioned. So she basically becomes a M1 killer with no power to help her out when she tunnels.
This is like debating that M1 killers are actually pretty damn strong because they all have the ability to tunnel. Yet, they aren't that great. You invest a lot of time to get your first down, then proceed to pressure exactly 1 survivor while the other 3 do gens. For a Pig to get her first down, she usually loses 2-3 gens. After that the real tunneling starts. But then the game is only gonna take about 2 minutes until the other 3 have escaped. So you kill 1 person but all the gens are done and the exit gates probably open already. All because you played the purest form of M1 killer.
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Tier 1 Myers approves of this idea.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670011#Comment_3670011
oh, I couldn’t care less how people play Pig. I’m merely stating the most common way I’ve seen her played & asking if that specific strategy has been removed. If the developers don’t actively prohibit it (by game design features or their ‘rules’) then anything is fair game here.
edit: someone just above me insinuated that the strategy is legit and should exist. lol. It’s very antithetical to what you’ve said and it’s just interesting to see two killer mains with diametrically opposed attitudes about this killer character.
I never said, it shouldn't be a way to play the killer. It's just that it's inefficient (which in my opinion is fine because you don't use the power to your benefit). However, this is the play style that still works, while smarter gameplay has become even harder and less efficient. That's the entire point I tried to make.
Also, just because I'm a killer main doesn't mean I'll agree with every other killer main. I have a brain of my own, you know. 😉
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669947#Comment_3669947
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669954#Comment_3669954
The most common way I’ve seen this killer played is by putting on the RBT, hooking, then harassing the unhooked survivor while they tried to remove the trap until their head exploded usually by slugging them. Has that strategy changed..?
So you have an issue with a killer playing pure M1 killer without benefitting from their power? Because that is what happens when the Pig player tunnels you.
The timer stops. And if they crouch, then they are still not benefitting from their power because 2 1/2 minutes is usuall enough to tunnel someone out anyway. But more importantly, in these cases, both nerves have no impact. You don't need to see auras, if you won't let up from that survivor anyway and 30 seconds extra time don't mean anything when the timer is paused or that survivor dies before the 2 1/2 minutes are over.
This only affects people that played smart. Meaning, you chased different survivors and only engaged in short chases with trapped ones to get them away. Or you give them even more things to do like unhooking, which can happen if you manage to keep the other 3 busy. But now you won't benefit from that anymore as long as you aren't using UW to find the trapped survivor because you have no indication where to go. Before that, you'd be able to keep track of them mentally (you knew where they would go) and come at them when it's convenient.
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669969#Comment_3669969
I would agree but there are 5 people in this equation. The killer can ruin a match too.
My suggestion would be that you can earn a penalty free dc if you are getting hardcore tunneled or slugged forever. There is no need for the player being present if he is on death hook and the killer is greedy enough to slug them for 3 minutes plus to find the last survivor.
Literally everything the killer does will "ruin" the game for someone. Chasing, not chasing, camping, not camping, tunneling, not tunneling, using certain perks, playing a certain killer, randomly get a certain map, making a good play...
If slugging is so bad, then use Unbreakable. Tunneling is indeed something most consider unfun to play against but it really can't be helped because right now tunneling is normal. Survivors use nothing to protect themselves against it and the tools there are, aren't good enough to stop it.
A similar list exists for survivors. So we'd have both sides disconnecting more often, mostly on a whim. It's a PvP game. There will always be something that you don't like. Instead of looking for excuses, we should all just play it out. The absolute worst cases (cheaters and 3 gens for all eternity) have been dealt with. The rest can be endured for a few minutes.
And if it happens every match, then maybe the problem is not the game but our attitude. Disconnects should always be met with harsh penalties.
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You're not supposed to quit every other game on a whim. If you don't feel like playing, then don't play it's that simple. But don't queue up and then disconnect and ruin the match for 4 other players.
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Boring and probably will never see use. The downside is too high of a risk to use it early on and later in the match, the reward becomes less. So it's a perk that starts weak and then gradually becomes weaker.
It's sad that they don't use the full potential of this type of perks. Going to the basement and investing 2 minutes of time isn't really what survivors want to do.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669849#Comment_3669849
You can still harass / tunnel players with an RBT, it’s just gonna require more skill expression on your part now.
48 maps with 5 boxes each. That's 240 box placements that you'd need to learn (as of now). Yeah, I can definitely see how that is realistically achievable.
If you tunnel someone with a RBT, then you play tunneling M1 killer. Your power doesn't do anything in that case, so that was never an issue. But she could keep track of survivor movements before to harass them at a box. That is now no longer realistically possible and it takes away a lot of her power.
But hey, at least UW still works on her and now there is even more of a reason to use it.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Would have been nice to keep it at 3 minutes to show all those people complaining that the increase in the timer would not have changed her Slowdown at all.
But well, at least one of the unasked Buffs for Huntress was removed as well.
It was never about the slowdown. It was about removing one survivor and play a 1v3 as long as they had a trap. This change completely removed that aspect, so you could say, her slowdown got worse because you still had time to do side objectives even with an active trap. Though, I suppose it won't make much of difference anyway, seeing as how they kept the box auras removed.
She can no longer play around her power, which completely removes her kill pressure and you also have time to go for an unhook, cleanse a totem, heal and then go for the searches, since she won't interrupt you. Meaning, it's still 1v4 even with an active trap.
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Give him an addon that disables Overdrive completely and it should be fine. I would probably use it from time to time.
@darkshadows8326 said:
How about reduce overdrive time and when it is over you enter overheat.
How about "no"? Seriously, overheat was the worst thing they ever added to a killer. It made him significantly less fun to play because you didn't have the freedom to use your power at will and it was an unnecessary nerf to him. Your suggestion would make this even worse because then you couldn't even avoid overheat.
That's basically telling the player: "Well now, you used your power (the only strength you have) too much. Now you have 2 options: 1) Get a very short time with increased speed but become unable to use your power for X seconds afterwards or 2) You are not allowed to use your chainsaw for 15 seconds + X seconds (time it takes to reduce heat)." So they'd have to choose between a kick in the chin and a punch in the face. In both cases they're screwed.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669217#Comment_3669217
"Free escape"? They managed to get through 5 gens without dying, that's already an achievement. The killer shouldn't get a free kill at that point just because.
The game isn't over until it's over. They haven't left yet, so they are still in the game. In end game, the killer has no other objective to defend than the hook. And if that survivor does get unhooked, than they are out with nothing you can do. Base kit BT still works in end game. Why should you not be in danger when you're hooked in end game? You haven't won yet.
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It's an easy and straight forward power, so it's a killer that is good for beginners. You have a power to gives you information, injures survivors and forces them away from gens and you play M1 killer for the second half of the chase. That is not bad and it's a lot easier to do than using Oni, Wesker, Chucky or Blight's powers to get the same results.
Legion doesn't have a lot that can be countered by survivors or messed up by you. Other killers often do. With Wesker you could miss, with Blight you'll need to have some understanding of maps and hitboxes and you can still be spun and Oni is pretty hard to play on a decent level because you'll need to learn how to flick and still play a good amount of M1 killer to get your power.
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Crosshairs should be an option for everyone. Not just console killers. The devs allow you to use them but they still are against adding them to the game. That's just weird.
Something I think would help console players more is higher sensitivity settings. On a controller, you will never be able to aim quite as accurate as with M&K because it's just less responsive but at least the sensitivity could be slightly higher to allow players to adjust their aim quicker.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668866#Comment_3668866
It depends on the map, rng and the killer's skill.
You can get down before gens even be finished. But yeah, let's act like all first chases are ending with 3 gen pop.
For about half the killers that is realistically the case.
Although, I agree that tunneling needs to be addressed. I'm very much looking forward to the update to DS. We'll see how much it does but at least it should help a little. Killers that don't tunnel mostly won't have to deal with it (at least that's what I hope for) and tunneling killers will have to deal with it. So, there is kind of an incentive not to tunnel (less perks to worry about) and a penalty for doing so.
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You play like normal, hope the match ends quickly (which it likely will, considering that there's no shortage of people hook suiciding against her) and go next.
As for Skull Merchant:
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It proves that you can be consistent. You're not gonna play against the best of the best every game, that's obvious. But you should still get matched with opponents that pose a threat when you don't play well. The impressive part about win streaks to me is how consistent someone can play at a high level.
Everything else about win streaks is not all that impressive, agreed.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668604#Comment_3668604
Because they get points for tunneling I'm confused do you know how points work.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668603#Comment_3668603
I'm not spiteful I hoe all survivor's die for the chance for me to get a save. The more slow down the better.
I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. Absolutely none.
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Spiteful, are we? You could make the same claim with any strategy that you don't like and it would sound just as bad. If you cannot bear the thought that your opponent might get something out of your offering as well, then use cakes or puddings.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668436#Comment_3668436
I don't know if he saved Dbd but I am pretty sure he was a significant factor in putting it on the map.
It definitely gave the game a significant boost in reputation. One of the biggest horror licenses of all time got added to the game. That probably gave them a foot in the door for many other licenses we have now.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668509#Comment_3668509
Can we stop saying survivors are in the best state with all the buff they get? The buffs dont deny the escape rate dropped.
I mean, solo survivors are kind of in the best spot they've ever been in when we compare them to SWFs. So it does have some truth to it. I'm not saying that survivors have never been stronger (that would be objectively wrong) but if we reverted the game back to pre 6.1.0 it wouldn't take a week for survivor players to cry out about how horrible the game is. Have you forgotten the many complaints about face camping, BT not being base kit, solo survivors having no possibilities to coordinate and the old killer meta?
Neither killers nor survivors will ever be completely satisfied. But pretending like survivors are in a horrible spot and haven't received any positive changes over the past years is dishonest. I personally wouldn't want to give up the updated HUD, anti 3 gen mechanic, removal of hook grabs, AFC and base kit BT.
The escape rates may be lower but overall the survivor role (to me) feels a lot better to play now, despite the issues there still are.
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I do not envy you.
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Welcome to the English section of the forums, friend.
Unfortunately many of us do not speak German, so we don't understand a word you say. The German forums you'll find here.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668043#Comment_3668043
I hope your job is lumberjack or is there something you wanna tell us?
Uhm. Well...
