WalterBlack
WalterBlack
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- WalterBlack
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Still a very decent pick, just not as 'guaranteed' as 5 seconds anymore. Won't help you against Nurse though.
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I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread about this:
A lot of people are arguing that for killers, there is a much easier "way out" than for survivors, when taking a look at the way in which the Abandon system is implemented. This argument is fair in and of itself but does not really go into what killers are arguing here: Yes, there is an easy way out, but having to expose yourself to a larger measure of frustration than necessary, with very little to gain in 90% of the cases, is just not healthy. The match is over, there is realistically little left to do, bar from the singular time a survivor is stupid enough to run out and get caught.
I think this is also why Mandy's response drew so much ire: not because what she said was unreasonable, but because the "solution" misses the point. The frustration is about having to expose yourself to even more humiliation, in a situation where there is very little to gain for the Killer player, rather than the actual inability to do anything other than wait (as is the case with slugged survivors).
I think in the end there is relatively little harm in allowing Killers to abandon whenever the match is essentially over - Survivors get their automatic escape (or Killer bots, if or when that ever happens) and the Killer doesn't need to go through another humiliation ritual.
And to address something else being said - I also find it a little odd that Killers feel the need to rub in their victory by essentially wanting a delay timer on the Abandon feature. I do hope in the future they add some sort of thing where bots give up after a certain period on the hook though - having to sit there and wait for the bot to go into stage 2, stage 3… is a little tedious.
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Sounds interesting but it'd be design hell having to give every killer a second power.
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Nice false dichotomy, but what is the point of someone not giving up when there's nothing left to gain? They're in the struggle phase?
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930317#Comment_3930317
Maybe you could try playing in a way that won't activate the abandon match feature for the other side then.
This is moronic - they can just disconnect when all four of them are down, do you not realise this?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930304#Comment_3930304
Oh I agree with you 100%. For sure.
I think you get to keep your BP.
Emphasis on remaining - I hate being forced to essentially "steal" the victory from myself by abandoning - if I don't want to wait at least a full minute+ for the bots to stop being annoying.
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@apathyinc said:
Why is it wasting your time if it's a bot? You are spending time playing the game regardless if it's a bot or player.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? It's one thing for a player to stay in the game out of spite, struggling while the game is already over. It's another thing to have to wait for bots to stop doing this every single time
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930294#Comment_3930294
Wait, couldn't you just abandon the trial too if its just a bot left so you don't have to waste anymore of your time?
I would, if I didn't want the remaining bloodpoints I worked for. Doesn't help that, somehow it's considered a "loss" for the Killer as well, as far as I read :)
And why should I have to abandon? I won! Does that just mean nothing?
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@Nazzzak said:
Do you mean it'll wiggle off? If so, just let it?
Why need I unnecessarily prolong the match because hook spawns screwed me, and the developers neglected to code an "It's over" setting for the bots? It's a little ridiculous you expect me to run around like a chicken without a head where there is essentially no point.
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A lot of people are arguing that for killers, there is a much easier "way out" than for survivors, when taking a look at the way in which the Abandon system is implemented. This argument is fair in and of itself but does not really go into what killers are arguing here: Yes, there is an easy way out, but having to expose yourself to a larger measure of frustration than necessary, with very little to gain in 90% of the cases, is just not healthy. The match is over, there is realistically little left to do, bar from the singular time a survivor is stupid enough to run out and get caught.
I think this is also why Mandy's response drew so much ire: not because what she said was unreasonable, but because the "solution" misses the point. The frustration is about having to expose yourself to even more humiliation, in a situation where there is very little to gain for the Killer player, rather than the actual inability to do anything other than wait (as is the case with slugged survivors).
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Same issue here
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Eyrie of Crows finally getting the nerf it needs
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868691#Comment_3868691
I always smack them out the gate and I don't find it to be a "humiliation ritual." They have no respect for my time so I claim my time back by forcibly moving them on. I have the option to do that and so I use it. They're not out here in my house kicking my cats, they're just sitting on their couch gleefully pressing a button. Probably while in desperate need of a shower.
It seems alot of the refusal to use the tools at a player's disposal (chasing or hitting them out) comes from a bit of stubbornness. 'I don't want to give them what they want' while ignoring that the killer also gets what they want at the same time.
As I already said in a comment after this, it's about communicative intent. Not letting it bother you is one thing, but the intent is to make the Killer feel miserable by using a demeaning gesture. The intent of the Survivors specifically teabagging at the exit gate is to humiliate you - "I won, now look at me. You can't catch me." I'm not talking about staying in the exit gates to give your teammates a chance to open the other gate.
Not sure what you mean with the cat comparison - saying "at least X isn't as bad as Y" won't get the discussion very far.
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Hope the developers respond to this. Such a terrible look.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868743#Comment_3868743
I mean, if someone decides to flip the bird in RL I would still see this as different then a random person on the internet I have seen in a game for 10 minutes and will most likely not even see again (or dont remember again) spamming the crouch-Button.
It is your decision to take it personal.
I respect that. What I am trying to say is that, when you have a gesture of which the intent is to simply be derogatory, it's not pleasant to be on the receiving end of it, regardless of if you take it personally or not. Someone could flip me the bird, and while I wouldn't take it personally, it wouldn't necessarily be pleasing to me either. Same goes for teabagging - different medium, same communicative intent.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868691#Comment_3868691
"Humiliation Ritual"… It is just some people pressing a Button. Nothing more. If you get mad about this, this is on you. And personally as Killer I would rather let them teabag me at the Exit than having to wait for 2 minutes.
I'd argue it's similar to sticking up your middle finger, as in essence the same meaning is attached to both gestures, despite the gestures in and of themselves having no meaning. I personally don't really think your argument holds up here but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868653#Comment_3868653
Nobody said it is fine. Nobody here is defending it. All what was said is that the Killer has the solution to force the Survivors out. You are the only one who is pretending that someone said what you are saying.
BUT - if we look at threads about Killers slugging until bleedout, we suddenly see players with "But what about Survivors waiting at the Exit Gate?"… Strange.
I'd say the issue isn't not being able to do anything about it, or even the concept of staying the game in and of itself, but rather Killer players having to either sit there and waste their time, or be forced to partake in a humiliation ritual. Not great.
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@Equinox_One said:
Title.
I started playing a bit before the Legion patch. While the game was a very different place back then, I do miss the 'vibe' maps had, as they felt a lot darker and grittier.
Now granted I played a lot of survivor back then and it was hilariously silly, but WGLF was a BP machine if you could get it going but it also resulted in a LOT of survivors competing for the unhook and without baseline BT…do the math. This actually resulted in me playing killer more as I was so irritated at constantly getting farmed.
Started playing in 2016, vaguely remember thinking Dwight's running cycle looked like he did a number 2 in his pants. Almost folded over laughing.
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Luckily people in anonymous mode are still reportable, but yeah. Anonymity brings out the worst in people. I prefer the system right now though - at least I don't have to suffer so much abuse.
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From what I've seen, the only timeframe they've given is "2025".
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They had to delay them but I assume it'll be around next midchapter.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859455#Comment_3859455
so….
if it isnt fun to play the twins
and…
it isnt fun to go against the twins
would it not make sense to rework them to facilitate an enjoyable experience for both sides?
It would. Just not in the way you're suggesting. Having Victor essentially be useless when a survivor is injured wouldn't be very fun for the Killer.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859404#Comment_3859404
Oh no, the killers innate advantage might be slightly decreased? We can't let that happen! Lets stop slugging by punishing survivors somehow!
Did you read the last line of what I wrote, or did you just really want to get that strawman out of your system? I'm not saying it should be either-sided, it's just that the majority of the suggestions I see here on the forums are very survivor sided. Be nice.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859367#Comment_3859367
mending simulator is infinitely better than slugging simulator. at least after you mend you can play the game you paid money for. And i am not attached to my idea, that is why i said "or something", meaning i am open to whatever idea there is to make the game more enjoyable for EVERYONE. I really don't understand this communities aversion to mutual enjoyment and healthy change. "I suffer therefore you must suffer". or ya know, make changes as needed to promote entertainment as well as a healthy community and if a killer is lacking after said changes…give them a buff. You could make victor pounce further or faster. make it so survivors cant hold him hostage. you could add AI to victor so when you're not controlling him he can scout survivors for ya. There are options outside of "slug. tis the only way".
More enjoyable for everyone except the Twins player. She just has to deal with it I guess.
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I doubt toxicity got any worse between now and 2 years ago, it's still just as bad.
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@joel84 said:
because that's what they're there for….
That is the truth. Yes it is.
There are so many complaints about it at the moment. Use something other than WoO, DS and DH combos. That's what those perks are for, so get out of your comfort zone.
A terrible statement? Certainly not.
Seriously, if someone has a problem with being on the floor for 4 minutes, why are they even playing? ( Don't say anything about time, you're playing a computer game and everyone who plays a computer game has time) It's part of the game.
In my opinion, developers have meddled far too much in the game of killers in recent years anyway.
So I ask: what will killers be allowed to do in the future? Survivors complain about every little thing, and it's gotten ridiculous and nerdy.
Cote would say: go play something else. Civilization for all I care.
That's just the way it is; change my mind
Slugging should be tackled at a game-level basis, not on the basis of having to run a perk. That said, seeing people twist now be against this argument, while countering other arguments with "Just run X!" is a little ironic. Not that that is happening in this thread, but I've seen this argument used far too often for one side, while not applying it to the other.
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It feels like on this forums players tend to see slugging as a form of "It's always the Killer's fault" and "It's never acceptable", in a similar tenor to how tunneling & camping is viewed. Judging by the inclusion of survey questions and BHVR's track record on these types of complaints - the "solution" might be treated in a similar way. Good luck to Oni and Twins mains, because if you're slugging, you're just bad at the game and a bad person! /s
Don't get me wrong, by the way - structural, unnecessary slugging should be addressed - just not in the abysmally survivor-friendly way some people on here seem to always advocate for.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
The servers have been a bit janky in general, though I have not had any big issues during this event.
However during the 2v8 event I think player numbers were so high the servers were not able to cope, so I did have a lot of rubber-banding and weirdly my entire lobby got put into 200ms games a few times, when my usual ping is ~15 - 20ms
You know, strangely enough it's not even lag, it's actually just stuttering. I was playing Singularity and a whole lot of wacky stuff happened the moment I tried to teleport.
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Not a fan given that this update just introduced really frustrating stuttering
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hopping in to provide a little context on this, the team has been closely monitoring The Houndmaster's performance and determined that Knotted Rope posed a potential balancing risk when paired with certain perks and addons. They're currently re-evaluating this addon and plan to revisit it in 2025, but ultimately wanted to ensure that heading into the holidays, the risk of an over-tuned combo was minimized.
We know larger balancing changes like this can be frustrating, but we appreciate your patience as at the end of the day, we want to ensure there's a solid balance between having fun as the Killer and playing against the Killer.Like you did with Skull Merchant? Why not just killswitch the addon at that point, instead of making it completely pointless to use? Did the killswitch break or something?
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@Reinami said:
@Xxjwaynexx thanks for tagging me on this, as i usually post in these.
There is a fundamental problem with nurse, that i usually respond to when these threads come up. It is a simple question, that most refuse to answer or deflect, but i'll try and ask it of you.
Should DBD be balanced around the highest skill players, or average skill players? I'll tell you my own opinion at the end, but i want you to really stop here and think about it before you keep reading. How should ANY game be balanced really, not just DBD.
Every time BHVR releases data around kill rates, nurse is usually at the bottom of the pack in terms of kill rate. Devs balance for a 60% kill rate (you can disagree but thats what the stated goal of the devs is, mathematically it amounts to killers winning 50% of the time, but that is a different discussion). Anyway, 60% kill rate is the goal. But when devs release their data, it shows nurse usually being around 49-50% kill rate. Even at high MMR her kill rate is often only around 50-55%, usually the lowest or one of the lowest in the game.
Here are just some examples:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TKHDHIH7E57R/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/C00QCMAACSOQ/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JHNW3Q9CUX8E/image.png
Even looking at UNOFFICIAL data, if you look at nightlight RIGHT NOW and sort by kill rate. You'll see that nurse has a 52.97% kill rate. When you look at averages for killer as a whole, that is currently at 54.66% kill rate. So it stands to reason that, when looking at most players, even the "high mmr" ones that BHVR classifies as "high mmr" nurse is actually BELOW the average in terms of kill rate. This would indicate that nurse is completely fine.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ATTUKBAHR75H/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2IK5J7G8WFXG/image.png
But, and i think most would agree. Nurse is objectively the best killer in the game. When played at the HIGHEST level, not whatever the hell BHVR says high mmr is, but the HIGHEST level of play, she is clearly the best killer. As someone who is a nurse main with 4k+ hours in this game, i can truthfully tell you that legitimately, i cannot remember the last time i lost a game as nurse, like i literally cannot. Occasionally i get a draw, maybe a couple of times a week, maybe if i'm memeing around, or going for a tome challenge, or honestly just go up against a good team that puts up a good fight. But a loss? No. My "no loss streak" with nurse is probably well over thousands of games at this point, unironically, but i don't bother counting.
I don't say this to brag, i say this to agree with you, that nurse is a "problem" in the sense that, someone who dedicates the time and energy into playing her, into maining her, is going to be able to exploit her to her fullest potential, and when judged at that level, she objectively needs massive changes.
So, lets say i agree with you, and that nurse needs "nerfs" so to speak (personally i think she needs a total rework, but that is again, a different discussion). Well now you need to contend with the reality of what you just said. You want a killer who, for all intents and purposes, at average level and high mmr is below average, to be nerfed, because of what a few VERY high level (like top 1k or even less) are capable of doing with her. So now, you need to own up to the consequences of that decision.
And what are those consequences? Well, the fact that when you look at things at THAT level of play? Nurse is pretty much the only viable killer. Arguably blight and hillbilly could maybe compete as well, but its probably an uphill battle. At THAT level of play though, with the best of the best players in the world? Nurse is basically the only viable killer to play a "fair" match.
Now this is the part where someone usually says things like "But killers like ghostface and dredge also win matches in comp". But, what most fail to see is that comp usually balances things differently for different killers. Different killers have different perk bans for survivors and killers, different killers get played on different maps.
Ghost face for example, is played on Lery's a very good map for him, that makes him much more interesting. Similarly dredge is played on Midwich, another very good map for him. And different killers have different things that are banned for them. Effectively, comp balances things on an individual killer level by trying to change perk bans and maps and such perk killer, rather than overall.
To conclude, if you think nurse needs to be nerfed because of what the highest level players are capable of, per the data, then you must also content with the fact that at that same level, she is the only viable killer, and nearly every single killer either needs MASSIVE buffs, or survivors need MASSIVE nerfs, to come at the same time as these nurse nerfs.
Now, i said at the end i would answer the question i asked of you, should the game balanced around average skill players, or high skill players? I think the game should be BALANCED around high skill players while DESIGNED around low skill players. Keep in mind that BALANCE and DESIGN are 2 different things. What i mean by this for example, is lets look at Nurse, as you have. Nurse is very OP in the hands of a good killer player, but really BAD in the hands of the average player. This is why she needs a total rework, she needs to be designed in a way that new players can play her and have a good time, but BALANCED in a way that she is fair at the highest level of play.
There is a video i like posting that explains this idea for TF2, i linked the relevant timestamp, but the entire video is a good watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
This often happens in games where maybe a character is really really good in low level play (a noob stomper) but actually bad in high level play, so the devs need to do some redesigning that "nerfs" the character in a way that makes them less of a problem in lower level play, while also buffing them for high level play. And vice versa is also possible, where characters can be really really bad in low level play, but way OP in high level play, such a thing also probably needs to be redesigned in some way. Maybe not totally, but certainly some better design decisions need to be made.
The perfect example of this in DBD type of decision IMO is the original change to Hex: Ruin. If you weren't around back in the day, the OLD Hex: Ruin did this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GTV3Z8FGLUKA/image.png
This perk was basically taken every single game by every single killer. It was in like 50% of games or some crazy thing at one point, because it was very effective at slowing the game down. Not only did it make great skill checks not give a bonus (which at the time i believe was 5%, and this was on 80 second gens), but it made it so good skill checks actually REGRESSED the gen.
People who were bad at hitting great skill checks would often resort to "gen tapping" which made a gen take around 100-110 seconds depending on how often you did the tapping JUST to avoid the skill checks. If you were bad at skill checks, this was actually faster than just doing the gen. Lower skill survivors have a hard time with skill checks, and finding totems.
Basically, every single game was "find the ruin before you do gens" and if you found the ruin in 60 seconds, great, the game was an even playing field, but if you didn't, survivors probably lost. And if the killer lost ruin as soon as they spawn because survivors spawned on it? They probably lost. However at the HIGHEST level of play, what did this do? Well, those kinds of survivors can ALWAYS get great skill checks, so all it really did was remove the bonus, they could just ignore ruin completely and fly through gens. On top of that, ruin "just worked" there was nothing the killer needed to do to get its effect unlike pop for example which requires a hook. Its slowdown just worked by nature of bringing the perk
So it was OP in low level play, and very weak in high level play. So it was completely reworked, in what i think is BHVRs greatest balance decision they have ever made.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2HXGZL3BZ57Z/image.png
Now, ruin sucks because 100% is not nearly enough, but that again, is a different discussion.
This ruin was GREAT from a design perspective. It required the killer to push survivors off of gens and pressure them in order to get the effective regression it provides instead of it "just working" this means that the effect of ruin is proportionally effective to how good the killer is at pressuring survivors. So in low skill play, where killers are not able to pressure gens as effectively, ruin was much weaker, but in higher skill games, where killers can often pressure multiple survivors at the same time by juggling the different gens, they could get MUCH better regression, making ruin a real threat. It wasn't long before high skill survivors were always cleansing ruin, and lower skill ones could ignore it a bit for the first few gens and maybe stumble upon it.
It wasn't much longer where we got undying, which made it even stronger in the high level game, while only making it slightly better in lower skill games.
So anyway. BALANCE the game around high level players, and DESIGN the game around low level players, and the game will be in a much more fun and fair state for everyone.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head - but I think that's exactly the problem. Survivors want Nurse dumpstered because, at a high level, she's the only Killer that can reliably get wins, provided you're good at her. Plenty of "Nurse pros" in here claiming Nurse is easy after having played 5 matches at rock-bottom MMR
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Funny hearing people call for nerfs, saying that "Nurse isn't hard" and in the same breath having them admit they "rarely play her".
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The one thing I hope they hotfix about this perk is that it actually exposes you, instead of being reliant on a scream
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849546#Comment_3849546
Twins still holds the number 1 spot, because her chapter broke the entire game. From what I can tell the main issue with this chapter is the killer itself not working. Which is easy enough to not deal with.
You're right. I've calmed down. I'm just salty.
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She was released in such a pathetic state I honestly doubt they even playtested the thing / looked at PTB feedback. The redirects, dog getting stuck, dog not being able to find its way, sometimes not even going… I think this chapter will compete with the Twins chapter for most egregiously incompetent launch.
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@Rulebreaker said:
We don't know what you're having problems with so we can only give general advice.
When trying to injured survivors with crows send only one at a time till you tag them. Then once tagged spread out the crows for coverage like a "shotgun". We have a preference to aim at where we don't want survivors to go similar to a Huntress trying to zone them.
Don't be trigger happy. Hypocritical coming from us but remember you don't always have to fire and the CD is much quicker if you don't.
To check gens try to line up crows so a single one gets multiple gens when possible. You can also do this as a quick way to check lockers if needed.
Thanks for the tips guys - the area I struggle most with is crow-ing them but getting the follow up hit without blind luck (relying on shotgunning). The rest seems to make sense - are these long-range hits feasible? Because a lot of the time, Survivors tend to just dodge (or indeed, hop into a locker. Makes sense to bring Iron Maiden)
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
I find it always true - event outside of the events - that wandering around the map to do whatever when you know there are survivors waiting in the exit gate to teabag you is the best way to get them to leave ASAP. You handle them like an immature child trying to get attention - they will quickly get bored when you ignore them. The event was nice because there were a lot of ways to get more BP while wandering the map in endgame.
During the event they stayed for about 10 seconds at most, but after the event I'm getting groups staying >half the EGC just to teabag in the gates. Could be anecdotal, since I rarely get any games without teabagging anyway.
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Didn't go so well back in 2022
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Maybe a change to Chucky's Scamper to make it useable again. Don't know what, just something.
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I've been trying to get her Adept achievement today, I never expected her to be this bad. Also learned that almost all Survivors will teabag at the exit gates.
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Having the same issue, still not fixed and it's September… ridiculous
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I have the same issue on PC
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You could try making some chicory with cheese, doesn't need to take that long. It's nice if you can stand the bitterness of chicory.
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@EQWashu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528761#Comment_3528761
I (as a killer with Lightborn at the time) did get flashbang stunned briefly, and at the end of the match I let them get flashlight rescues (they won anyway) ... the flashlight will eventually quickly narrow and widen (so long, it likely can't be done without the killer pretty much giving you the time to do it without pressure), and allowed the survivor to escape without a regular blind on me, so technically possible to get the score event through lightborn, but not get the intended blind.
If you're able, try a few of these, especially Blast Mine again, and check the perks postgame. If the killer does not have any perk or add-on to prevent being blinded, and still received no progress, please post an update!
I'll see if I can do that today, thanks!
E: Apparently already did this challenge; any other way of testing this out?
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@MarbleThrone said:
Did you check if the killer had Lightborn?
I got the score event for Killer Blinded, so I don't think he had Lightborn, but good catch!
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I still have this issue too. Absolutely infuriating.
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It just happened again! I'm not planning on getting banned because the servers keep shitting themselves
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A lot of the killers just aren't fun to play, in large part because of their underwhelming strength. It shouldn't be all that surprising to see these killers a majority of the time. Maybe the answer isn't nerfing these killers, but rather buffing other killers so they become worthwhile.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467608#Comment_3467608
You mostly right and I have myself to blame also since I didnt even try to tunnel. The only 4 hooks I had was on each suvivor. There was times I could had tunnel someone off hook but decided to go after the unhooker. That much I will say it was my fault.
You're wasting your time on these forums man. These are the same people who defended DH for so long.