VomitMommy
VomitMommy
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768808#Comment_3768808
I'd play against bots all day, they dont complain in the endgame chat.
Then go play custom?
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@Rumplestiltskin said:
If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting an option at the end of the match where the Survivors and the Killer could all be offered a "rematch" button and if everyone is in agreement and hits it, a new game will initiate? It isn't a bad idea, except for the fact that Dead by Daylight uses a Que system, and this would screw over people waiting for a match. :)
It doesn't really do anything different than SWF.
I would definitely want part for survivors at least. Everyone who press "stay" is just going to get inserted into next lobby, or just create / join them into one group as SWF.
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Hmm, you could expand it and even if killer doesn't agree you could make it for survivors to stay in same lobby, at least those who agree.
I think that might help soloQ a lot, basically when you get good teammates, you can keep playing with them.
There are games with such system.
I think that would be an amazing soloQ improvement, but even for SWF it might be fun to go for rematch with a killer. Issue is it's going be huge sweat fest :D
It would be probably better first version make only for survivors to keep playing together. I would really like that...
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768558#Comment_3768558
I actually jumped out of my skin and burst out laughing when I was juicing a Wraith, and Trapper blindsided me out of nowhere...
I took it as a point of personal pride that it took 2 killers to down me and bought significant time for the 7 other people of my team.
That's always my mindset playing survivor. I never expect to run a killer for realistically more than 45s, any time I buy over that I consider a job well done.
If I was consistently able to loop the killer for 3 minutes or more, I'd get bored fast cause it makes the killer no longer feel like a threat.
But hey, that's just one opinion 😁
I have feeling this mindset is one of reasons, why I usually agree with your statements...
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@Krazzik said:
if +400% BP doesn't do much, I doubt even +4000% will do much. At a certain point people just don't wanna play the mode regardless of the reward.
400% is not more than I get in normal mode as SWF.
If it would be more profitable for me than everything else, then I would play it whole day.
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768501#Comment_3768501
BPs stopped something of high value years ago. BHVR showers you with BPs already.
Not really for people who wants prestige... There is never enough BP
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think 200% Ruin should come back. Maybe 150%?
I think 200% with that part it gets removed when someone die would be fine.
I would definitely prefer that over current version.
Ruin is kinda key perk for most hex builds, so as long it's weak, hex builds are weak. Totem spawns are really not helping tho...
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768749#Comment_3768749
long que times are more boring than bots. But yeah as i alredy said obvoiously they would be limitted.
Yeah, but imagine waiting that maximum amount of time just to see lobby full of bots. So the possible number of bots should be like 1-2 to skip last part of the queue.
Most people would dodge and try again, if there will be too many bots, which would make queue times even worse.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768762#Comment_3768762
I don't think it's fair to call it short sighted when what they did was change the meta perks for a different crop AND laid the groundwork for the meta to get more diverse by removing the requirement to run certain perks. Anti tunnel was at least intended to be no longer necessary, regression perks were intended to be no longer necessary, they removed BP bonuses from two perks ran for that purpose while alleviating the grind so they were no longer necessary, they improved chase-related numbers for killers so more perk types could be considered viable…
You could maybe consider some of those to not be successes - the only one I'd mark as a failure there is that anti-tunnel is still heavily incentivised - but it's still very obvious they were trying to build a better foundation for a healthier meta, even if in the short term people still ran similar perks to what they used to. Ideally, that would've been because they hadn't adapted to the new possibilities, but unfortunately the reality was that on the killer side at least, the replacement perks were unbalanced so people just ran those until they were nerfed. That part I will freely criticise.
When you ask what buffed perks "got into the meta", though, I think there's a need to step back and acknowledge that generally speaking, playerbases will optimise to the smallest number of strongest options where applicable. Generally speaking, "the meta" is probably not going to be a huge number of perks, and while it can be expanded, the goal should be considered more to make as many perks viable as possible, and on that BHVR are doing pretty well.
For example, Gearhead and Furtive Chase are legitimately good perks that are worth running now, where previously they were laughably terrible. The latest patch did a lot to help Machine Learning and Oppression, two formerly terrible perks as well. They may not be "meta" because they can't be considered the literal best, but they still do a ton to help out perk variety in terms of what's viable. You do see more than the same six perks every single game these days, or at least I do, on both sides. Sure, there's still "a meta", but there always will be, removing that isn't the goal.
they removed BP bonuses from two perks
I want my BBQ back. That was best reason to spread hooks they could ever think off. BBQ was basically alternative win condition for me...
Gearhead and Furtive Chase are legitimately good perks that are worth running now
All aura reading perks as information are hold back a lot by Distortion and OoO. But I don't think that can be changed easily.
They should simply release more information perks to be around loud noice notification, so Distortion is not ultimate information denial. Then even slightly worse aura reading becomes valid again.
Gear head could definitely work as loud noice notification.
The latest patch did a lot to help Machine Learning and Oppression,
I liked current patch changes and currently try to use oppression in many builds. Mainly because Surveillance is one of my main information perks.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768755#Comment_3768755
The goal wasn't actually to change the total number of meta perks, though?
I'm sure that would've been a nice bonus, but that patch was an emergency measure to change the specific perks being used because THAT was the thing people were complaining about. Seeing the exact same specific perks, game after game, for years. That was the complaint and that was why that patch happened.
They also haaaave been buffing under-used perks…? They just had to do 6.1.0. first otherwise people wouldn't have ever swapped off. Like, on the survivor side, people still would've been running BT and DS because there still wouldn't be any basekit protection against tunnelling. While those perks - at least DS - are still popular, they're nowhere near as required as they used to be.
Plus, without 6.1.0., some perks - like Dead Hard especially - would still be so overwhelmingly strong that no new or buffed perk could ever reasonably compete, so the patch needed to happen for those perks too. Mostly just Dead Hard, but a few other things were a little too strong too, like Iron Will, Spine Chill, Pop, and Corrupt Intervention. Most of those perks are now still worth it (except SC lol), but they were way stronger before, to the degree that they'd have a chilling effect on any new perks trying to get into the meta.
Simply changing meta perks for different/worse is insanely short sighted.
It will last few weeks, then players notice they again keep playing against same perks over and over again. So nothing really changed.
They also haaaave been buffing under-used perks…?
How many of those buffed perks got into meta? Except perks that were in old meta like DS, Pop etc.
Basically only one I can think of is Grim embrace for killers at least.
In past year killer's meta selection got smaller instead in my opinion. No new perk got into meta, we had many perk nerfs instead and 3-gen feature made this even worse, because it prohibited certain combinations.
They sometimes buff perks, but they release bad perks and nerf perks at faster rate.
I am definitely looking for promised winter patch that is supposed to buff/rework perks.
I also enjoyed this patch changes, except Knight and bugs. That's true..
I would understand some small nerfs in 6.1 patch along many buffs, but most of meta perks were simply completely removed out of meta, which was not good change.
Btw I think DH and Corrupt are still meta, I don't really have issue with those changes...
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@jesterkind said:
Well, I can answer that last question, at least.
Prior to patch 6.1.0., the game had a problem. There were about six perks on each side that you would see some combination of, almost every single game, for years. The meta was exceptionally stale, and not only was that an observable fact, it was an observable complaint. People were very annoyed with always seeing the exact same builds over and over again, and were demanding BHVR do something to address it.
In response, eventually, BHVR did the one thing they could do: An update that would nerf the stuff being used, buff the stuff not being used, and make a few basekit changes to address perks people feel they needed to run. From this perspective, it's impossible for any perk in that "meta" list to have genuinely been "overnerfed", since it was an emergency measure to address a pervasive problem that had grown out of control.
Before this patch, Ruin was in every game. After, it wasn't. Mission success, unironically.
That being said, Ruin is still a little weak these days, and the more viable perks, the better. With that in mind I'd love to see it brought back up to 200% but with the "disables when someone dies" stipulation added back in, to keep it comparable to other tools.
Mission wasn't really successful when total number of meta perks didn't really change.
Meta was still stale, just different perks and often worse.
In the end those perks were buffed back, but most of them not enough.
If they simply keep buffing under picked perks, then some of them get into meta and create more viable builds.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
because they wanted to change meta
You should change meta by buffing under picked perks, not nerfing already working things...
Nerfing top perks only creates exactly stale meta just worse.
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@Backmon said:
Even if lobby time make to 2 hours new mode is needed. And i see no problem with have many game regime permanent even if it means long lobby waiting
Hell no, my time is not so cheap I would be willing to wait 5+ minutes just to play 10 minutes game.
I would rather completely remove match making than spend more time in lobby/queue than actual gameplay.
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Just let survivors be ultimate farming simulator and I will gladly fill the spot.
Bots make games way more boring in my opinion. So I would rather not make them standard filler.
Even if they go for it, there should be maximum number of bots, I wouldn't go for more than 2 personally...
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768384#Comment_3768384
A Survivor being worse than the Killer is always going to be the Survivor being bad. They are bad in comparison to that Killer, have room to learn and improve, and once they do, they are better than the Killer and no longer bad. They may run into another Killer they are already better than before they learned how to improve, but they are still not bad because it is only a comparison against your opposition.
Doubt with M1 Killers - Doubt all you want, if someone is so bad at Killer that they don't even use their power, then your argument has weight, but most matches Killers use their power. Legion has them perma-injured, Ghosty has Exposed for lethality and the reveal noise for intel, Trapper has traps to prevent the best loops or trick Survivors, Clown has his gas, Myers has the smaller TR (which only doesn't work on Autohaven since that realm is bad for stealth in general), Dredge gets Killer Instinct on TP, Singularity can scan with pods (or camp a gen and look at the other one). All of these are M1 Killers that can find or chase much easier with power usage.
Use the bug only when losing - This doesn't magically make the attempt a success, and the level of coordination is far and above what soloq is consistently capable of. The Killer can still outskill the scenario, especially with a 60s delays as I've suggested. It only gives 2 free escapes against a Killer that the Survivor team could have simply gotten a free 4 escapes against. Gens aren't automatically 99'd, and if the Killer waited 89s and never did anything about it, that is their problem.
MMR - Everyone sweating for their winstreaks cares, because those are the rules of the game that determine a win/loss. Skill never enters into the equation, but we assume that if you win, you could consistently juice or end chases. Also Killer could do things about Keys/Hatch. They could bring a Hatch offering, Franklin's Demise, kill the Key holder on an awkward spot for Survivors to pick up the Key, and more.
4k Challenges - Unironically yes. I played against countless Key lobbies, and had no problem other than when attempting 4k challenges. (Adepts for me were actually easier with the old system, because you could 11 hook and let the final Survivor go even if healthy. 4k makes you have to slug for the 4k, or take the ~60/40 of a Hatch fight and risk going next if they win the Hatch fight.)
A Survivor being worse than the Killer is always going to be the Survivor being bad. They are bad in comparison to that Killer, have room to learn and improve
That's not very smart approach. Simply because those groups need different skill sets.
Just because someone lost, it doesn't make them bad. You want to tell me comp players from Eternal/Elysium are bad whenever they lose to each other? It doesn't make any sense.
You seem to not know difference between bad and worse. Even "worse" wouldn't be correct to use.
You can lose to things outside of your control. Map RNG, abusing current broken perks/bugs or simply resources other side used.
I really don't think survivor is bad if I Mori them with Tombstone piece...
Doubt all you want
You are free to use those killers powers all you want, but there are going to be instances where you have time between hooks longer than 60 seconds.
Just single chase is very easy to get over 60 seconds. Yet alone with searching and hooking.
Whenever you drop a chase because of strong setup, that is going to be above 60 seconds.
I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match
Your statement is simply delusional.
This doesn't magically make the attempt a success
But it makes it way easier and all we needed to do was start losing, which can be done on purpose. It doesn't make any sense to get rewarded for it.
Everyone sweating for their winstreaks cares
No, they care about survivors not escaping. MMR is not what deteremines their progress, because you can't see it.
Skill never enters into the equation
This one is interesting. So if I win survivors are bad, but the result of the match has nothing to do with skill? How that works?
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More BP
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768254#Comment_3768254
I still don't understand your gen number argument, so I'm just gunna drop it.
Survs free to work other gens if a 99'd gen is camped - Yeah? You can choose to leave or camp and play to what you think gives you the best chance of winning. They hide and Killer camps and searches, Killer wins (assuming the Killer is better than the Survivor at hide and seek, if we are assuming all Survivors win at hide and seek, then all Survs always win). They leave and Killer camps, they win. They leave and Killer leaves, Killer wins. In 2/3 scenarios, the Killer wins, better than the default odds of 60%.
No more free wins with Ultimate Weapon - Ultimate Weapon, Nowhere to Hide, and all these perks would still function and work for this purpose, and perkless, it is a skill fight between Killer and Surv. Again, if we assume the Survivors cannot be found if they don't want to be found, then Survivors would have 100% escape rate from stealth alone, with or without this hypothetical gen change.
How to down someone near a 99'd gen - If they hid, then they give a free hit once found, then once downed, the Killer can travel ~55m safely before the Survivor can wiggle free. I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match (unless I'm prepping like Ghosty stalks/Traps, but at this point of the game, preparations are done).
All my counters work as long as the Killer is better than the Survivors. If the Killer was worse than the Survivors, then they could have taken the 4 out anyways, so a sacrificial lamb yielding a 3 out is a net positive for Killer in terms of results. (S/S/S/S net 4S vs K/S/S/S net 2S, becomes a lesser loss for Killer).
As far as old Hatch and Keys, I didn't play against grab game Hatch, but I did play against the (superior) version of Hatch that was deleted after the Mikaela patch. The only flaw of that was when you had a 4k tome, but all 4k tomes/adepts should count 3k+ Hatch for them nowadays to disincentivize bleedouts. I have defended pre-Mikaela Hatch numerous times because it solved both tunneling and 3-genning. Instead we get an 8 regression limit, and whatever other bad ideas they will attempt next, to fix an issue caused from the removal of the 'better for the game Hatch' mechanic that existed before. Hatch counts as a tie, so in MMR, a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T = K), If they could have won without Hatch, then they would have beat the Killer (K/S/S/S = net 2S), so again, net postive results for Killer.
All my counters work as long as the Killer is better than the Survivors.
No, they work as long survivors are bad. That's not same.
I can generally find someone, down them, then hook them within 60s of any given point of a match
I highly doubt that with M1 killers. You just fantasizing, or you have no idea about real time flow during the game.
But feel free to post a game with any M1 killer where you from start to finish never have delay bigger than 60 seconds between all hooks.
If the Killer was worse than the Survivors, then they could have taken the 4 out anyways, so a sacrificial lamb yielding a 3 out is a net positive for Killer in terms of results. (S/S/S/S net 4S vs K/S/S/S net 2S, becomes a lesser loss for Killer).
If we would use this bug, it means we were about to lose, or 3k. This bug gives us free 2 escapes minimum against most killers.
So it's 4k into 2k...
so in MMR, a 3 Hatch escape is a Killer win (K/T/T/T = K), If they could have won without Hatch, then they would have beat the Killer (K/S/S/S = net 2S), so again, net postive results for Killer.
Multiple survivors had an option to escape in middle of the game and killer couldn't do anything about it. That's the issue.
Who cares about MMR?
You can't see it, it's not a reward.
The only flaw of that was when you had a 4k tome
Your opinion suddenly makes way more sense and many others in past...
Only issue of old keys were 4k tome challenges.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768270#Comment_3768270
You cannot escape from tunneling Wraith unless you are a god in chase or have coordinate team. He is much faster than you when he is invisible/ he has addons for insta break pallet/ fast uncloaking and huge speed boost after that you cannot escape this by being solo survivor. And most hated combo with silent bell and aura reading (cause he can see you under a obstacle do silent uncloack and on speed boost bypass the obstacle and insta hit/down you.
For Oni his power recharge to fast and stay way to long for such huge advantage over survivors. Cause when you heard his roar all gen repairing stop and only way to survivr hide in the corner
And Huntress hitbox need huge nerf cause its not okay when they fly like 2-3m right or left from your position but game decide that you getting a hit or when you run from the corner and then after 1 sec hatchet fly there you still get a hit and my most favourite when on windows you see that you already pass it before huntress even throw it and you still get a hit
You cannot escape from tunneling Wraith unless you are a god in chase or have coordinate team
Not really, if I have any window or pallet nearby his power does nothing and I am free to force him uncloak, which wastes lot of time.
He has little speed boost, but if I don't give him a pallet it's useless. Even if he can break faster, then I can fully negate it by vaulting...
And most hated combo with silent bell and aura reading
If he is tunneling me, then I kinda know he is there... And he can't use all add-ons at once btw
For Oni his power recharge to fast and stay way to long for such huge advantage over survivors. Cause when you heard his roar all gen repairing stop and only way to survivr hide in the corner
Just play safe in first chase to deny his power as long as possible.
It's also not impossible to loop Oni in his power. It has limitations, learn them...
But if you actually manage to heal and stealth his power, well he is kinda screwed. If you keep hiding while someone is in chase, then Oni is not the issue.
And Huntress hitbox need huge nerf cause its not okay when they fly like 2-3m right or left from your position but game decide that you getting a hit or when you run from the corner and then after 1 sec hatchet fly there you still get a hit and my most favourite when on windows you see that you already pass it before huntress even throw it and you still get a hit
My guess is your ping is terrible...
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1000% BP bonus for survivors would definitely help...
I am super greedy on BP, so I would definitely take a bait.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768261#Comment_3768261
Oni - overpowered - insta down/ run as a flash /better control on his power than billy/ great synergy with all meta perk and stealth perk (unlike legion for example) and great map control and not so hard like nurse or blight
Wraith - greatest tunneler and solo stomper. Untill you got a red rank or coordinate SWF there is no difficult game for him
Huntress - ridiculous fat hatchet hitbox
So let's start with Oni. His power needs to be way stronger than Billy's power simply because he doesn't have it always available. He starts as pure M1 killer without a power. His power needs to be way stronger than power killers have available all the time.
Wraith, best soloQ stomper and tunneler? Nowhere near that, not even close.
First of all for best tunneler you need someone good in chase. Wraith is not known for being best chase killer, his power is very limited for chase and you can definitely abuse it as survivor if you know what you are doing.
SoloQ stomper? How so? He doesn't have anything that requires teamwork. Greatest soloQ stomper is Pinhead.
Greatest tunneler is PH, or just Nurse and Blight.
Huntress - ridiculous fat hatchet hitbox
So? That's your reason for huge nerf? Her hatchet hitbox is not bigger than Wesker, Oni, or Blight.
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I really want to see full reasoning behind Wraith, Huntress and Oni...
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768252#Comment_3768252
yes but is something change for swf?
Almost everything...
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768016#Comment_3768016
Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.
2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task. Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?
60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv. You don't need to bring the gens to 0, you just need to bring them out of the realm of completion. A basekit 5% regression + starting to regress means that if a Killer runs across the remaining gens, they can find the people camping gens with little to no problem. If they are Distortion+Calm Spirit rat uber-hiders, then they could have coordinated and done that in the first place and won with a 4-out.
Easier to finish 2 gens - I mean you'd have one person found near a 99'd gen, then be on hook (near that gen that they aren't going to risk popping early), and even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.
Fewer gens are easier to defend, but that's again why I'm confused. If this comes into play at any number from 2-5 gens remaining, I have to defend more gens, regardless if the remaining gens are odd or even.
If number is either 3, or 5, then even with this bug I am guaranteed to stay at 1 gen left, which is easiest to defend.
If I do it at 2, or 4 then game just become way harder for me to win.
2 99'd gens at 4 remaining - I mean just camp one gen as soon as I catch on to their strat. I don't understand why this is a herculean task.
So we are free to work on any other gen meanwhile. That's nice of you.
Am I legally obligated to turn off my brain and not come up with counters?
Quite the opposite, my full answer would make mods angry...
60s delay - 60s is more than enough time to make use of an intel perk, or just use my eyeballs and ears in a search for another Surv
You don't have Ultimate Weapon anymore for easy finding. Also not every killer brings information perk, because some simply don't need it.
If I don't want you to find me, without a specific perk, you are not going to find me.
even if the Survs pop the gen across the map, the gen 99'd close to hook can be duo camped easily.
How exactly are you going to down my anywhere near close 99 gen?
Seems like your counters work only with turned off brain... Doesn't really make it valid.
And again:
Have you even played against old hatch and keys? Because that is exactly what you are trying to bring back as basekit feature, which is terrible idea.
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I would love see improvement in HUD layout overall.
Something like Smite has, where I can choose position and size for each block.
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@BlightedSugarcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768159#Comment_3768159
You may very well be right.
I understand that what I have written is a very big change, rough around the edges, and has numerous problems.
Blight has been my main killer for the past 3 years since I started playing dbd and is my only p100!
Watching Lilith's videos I learned HugTech and MoonRush (which is no longer available...).I still use Blight, of course, but sometimes I think of old him and miss him.
I wrote this to see if there was any way to somehow bring him from the past to the present without making him OP.I may be a fool to cling to the past, but I am simply trying to see if I can make him better!
Thanks for your input!I can see you put lot of work into your rework, but this is such a gamble.
We have seen many failed reworks, which many of them ruined the killer for current mains, or had to be completely removed.
Blight is in good state, still strong but with more counterplay. Less broken addons, but still way better than most other killers.
If you get into such massive rework you risk completely losing your killer.
I would rather focus such reworks on killers that actually need it, because of their low pick rate / power level. I don't believe Blight is one of them.
Only thing I want for Blight are bug fixes.
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I just try negative reinforcement instead.
You bring a map offering? You are dead...
I wish you could see, who bring what offering, even if there are not 4 offerings by survivors. Otherwise I have to kill whole team, just to be sure.
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@UndeddJester said:
The way to fix Twins is Victor needs to be heavily incentivised to go for longer lunges.
Short lunge shouldn't be impossible, but there needs to be a heavy penalty for a short lunge and rewards for long lunges. As an example of a super hard version:
Victor injures as normal for each hit, but immediately dies and starts resurrecting if he hits a lunge within less than 5m.
That is off top of my head, I'm not suggesting that particularly seriously, but it's something along that vein that Twins needs. Something that makes crawling up survivors butt's with Victor and slugging from point blank not the go to strategy.
I would rather see the distance based fatigue system we talked about in your post.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3768160#Comment_3768160
Actually in 2v8 there are even more reasons to slug, especially when killers are massively behind the hooks. There are 2 reasons for this - one is having a survivor slugged on one side of the map will force others come to the aid, effectively keeping them from doing gens and two is the chance to get everyone slugged at some point. With lack of proper slowdown in 2v8 mode, slugging is the only alternative because cage doesn't really do much since survivors end up teleported very close to their allies. The average caged duration is 5 - 10 seconds where slugged survivor may stay on the ground from 20 to even an entire minute in some cases.
I don't think there is need to min max this game mode. It's just for fun...
If basekit unbreakable made it too much survivor sided, all you need to do is add 1 gen, which should do the trick. I don't think it would be needed tho.
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I think they decided to go for 8 gens instead of 10 simply for the time killers get to save on hooking, which kinda makes sense.
I don't think there is a need for additional gen/s.
Even if some survivors leave, I think it's fine in this game mode, it's just for fun. It's definitely way less stressful for the killer.
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Unlike normal game, I could see basekit unbreakable get into 2v8 mode.
There is little to no reason to slug when you can cage anyone.
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I am very happy with current Blight, don't you dare to ruin him... He might become my first p100.
He would definitely get into worse state than he is now. First broken, then nerfed before he gets live, as always.
Blight is easily still one of top 3 killers. If you have issues playing him now, then try to watch a stream of Lilith Omen and try to mimic it.
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Rather not, it would be very difficult on some maps (gates close to each other) to escape. Mainly for soloQ, where they won't be able to coordinate and go for both gates together.
I am confident in not letting survivors leave as Blight, or Billy. It's possible even now, yet alone when they won't be able to partly open gates. Even worse if I add Remember me.
Escape through gate after hatch close would get way more difficult too, when you need to do it on one try.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767148#Comment_3767148
Call your big sister.
So Victor does what exactly?
Call M1 killer without a power, what an idea...
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767608#Comment_3767608
5 becomes an effective 3 with 1 kill, and 3 becomes an effective 2 with 1 kill (assuming it adds 1 gen completion PER gen pop per kill). It reduces the amount of gens needed in all circumstances. That's why I'm still confused why you'd only care at 5/3. It still matters at evens and odds with the exception of 1 gen remaining.
Survivors are setting themselves up for failure if someone is giving up early to make the game a 3 gen 3 Survivor match. The flow state for Killer is 1 on hook, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/heal, and IF there is a 4th they pump gens. In this 3v1, the Survivors are in a death spiral.
The 60s delay would prevent the 99'd gen(s) from being an issue. The Killer would have time to patrol the gens, kick them, and look for people hovering around them. I could run across my 4 gens, kick each (above 50%) once, then return to the 1 or 2 99'd gens and not have a problem finding the Survs there. If they 99'd 2+ gens, then it didn't even impact my ability to win since they needed to go out of the way to 99 2+ different gens instead of simply popping them to power the gates.
That's why I'm still confused why you'd only care at 5/3. It still matters at evens and odds with the exception of 1 gen remaining.
Because I will always get to 1 gen left which is easiest to defend. Not difficult to understand...
What is easier to defend 3 gens, or 4 gens?
Survivors are setting themselves up for failure if someone is giving up early to make the game a 3 gen 3 Survivor match.
Not if I use it in order to win and my teammates are ready to finish those gens.
Almost no killer is going to be able to win if we 99 two gens at 4 gens left and let someone to die. Most killers are not able to get 4k against 3 healthy survivors in end game. You usually get 2k at best.
The 60s delay would prevent the 99'd gen(s) from being an issue.
No, it wouldn't. 60 seconds is way less than what we are about to save on those gens.
You are not bringing multiple gens to 0 in 60 seconds and it's not difficult to chase for 60 seconds even if you find someone against most killers.
If we screwed up early game and know we have no chance to win normally, we can simply abuse this system and give as good chance to win.
If they 99'd 2+ gens, then it didn't even impact my ability to win since they needed to go out of the way to 99 2+ different gens instead of simply popping them to power the gates.
It's way easier than finish additional two gens which are going to be easier for killer to patrol.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767578#Comment_3767578
Any amount of gens above 1 is impacted by the feature, so I don't know why you'd only care at 5/3.
If you purposely want to kill someone early, then the feature should impact it. That's kinda the whole point.
If you want to have a good chance to win, simply get 8 hooks before killing anyone. I do it all the time. The only time it punishes you is in the example I laid out, 2 gens remain when you get the 9th hook. Slug until a gen pops if that is so impossible to deal with getting a 2k instead of a 3k+.
If a Survivor gives up, that means there are 3 other Survivors forced to play out a doomed match. This makes it possible, not matter how improbable, which is a good thing. Otherwise, everyone should hard quit on sight of Nurse/SM because 1 other person did. It is completely in control of Killer to kill a Survivor.
While it could be abused, a few simple tweaks (like 60s delay after death before coming into effect) would solve those flaws and be net beneficial for the game. Killers might get a couple 2ks instead of 3ks as the worst consequence.
Any amount of gens above 1 is impacted by the feature, so I don't know why you'd only care at 5/3.
Because that bug won't affect last generator. If there are 2 gens left, then there is only 1 gen left in reality and it's harder to patrol.
Even number of gens is exactly same as lower odd number.
1 = 2
3 = 4
But even number makes it easier for survivors to finish those gens, because they have more options (often safer)
If a Survivor gives up, that means there are 3 other Survivors forced to play out a doomed match. This makes it possible, not matter how improbable, which is a good thing. Otherwise, everyone should hard quit on sight of Nurse/SM because 1 other person did. It is completely in control of Killer to kill a Survivor.
That's only when it happens at 5 gens left. It will be very easy for group to 99 a gen at 2 gens left, or 2 gens at 4 gens left. Killer is without a chance to stop it.
We can freely give killer best 3-gen setup in his life, but as long we have 1 gen outside, it means nothing. We just 99 and wait for someone to die.
Survivors get rewarded for letting teammate die on hook. In no world should that be rewarded.
While it could be abused, a few simple tweaks (like 60s delay after death before coming into effect) would solve those flaws and be net beneficial for the game.
No it wouldn't. It's going to make the game worse for everyone first moment survivors realize how to abuse it.
Surprise, 60 seconds waiting in corner is easier than trying to finish full gen. Who would have thought?
Like really have you even played against old hatch and keys? Because that is exactly what you are trying to bring back as basekit feature, which is terrible idea.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767344#Comment_3767344
I mean if the Killer was hardcore tunneling, then this just spits it back in their own face. The bug was an autocorrecting mechanism. The Killer ruined 1 person's experience intentionally, and now the remaining 3 aren't caught in the Killer's ego trip anymore.
I've only lost 1 game due to the bug, because I play for 8 hooks before my first kill (and it was only a loss in the sense that 10 hooks 2 kills is a loss). It requires the Killer to draw 'first blood' of frustration, and it only frustrates the person who frustrated someone else. On paper, that is a perfect system. I've already given my initial thoughts on how to tweak it, but it was surprisingly good as it was.
If I hardcore tunnel, then I just need to make sure to finish the survivor at either 5, or 3 gens left. Then I don't care about the bug.
Worst is when I on purpose try to kill someone later, usually around 2 gens left. I can't do that anymore with this bug.
So if I want to have good chance to win, I am forced to kill sooner than I would like with this bug, which is 3 gens left. At 2 gens left, I have to track who is on dead hook and always slug them until I get to 1 gen left.
And if survivor decides to give up, then there is simply nothing I can do about it. If they do it smart, I lost the game and it was completely outside of my control as the killer.
That system would be terrible and easily abused.
Like the situation where survivors 99 gen at 2 gens left and won't finish it until I kill someone, or hook so they can give up. That would be so annoying to deal with.
That's literally old hatch + key situation. It's exactly same system.
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But suddenly one baby, who is not happy with the game can complete drain all health states for everyone.
Griefing would get to next level.
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Might be easier to balance and queue times shouldn't be that wild.
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That's a good idea overall, not just for 2v8...
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766947#Comment_3766947
So if it should be a base feature due to how easy it is to tunnel then same should apply to gens
There's already a base kit anti gen rush feature. There's a base kit, stacking penalty that punishes survivors for stacking up on gens.
In fact, this penalty specifically punishes survivors for focusing on one gen and completing it as soon as possible. The penalty doesn't apply if survivors spread pressure.
So this already exists for survivors. Sounds like tunneling one survivor out needs some kind of similar penalty, and has needed one for a long time.
Your logic is quite flawed...
Gen system means spreading on gens and working individually means you finish gens overall faster, but focusing single gen with multiple survivors still have a reason to do (gen killer doesn't want to give up). So both options are valid to do in specific situation.
What do I get for hooking every survivor or even going for 8 hook? Only reason is to be "nice".
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3766729#Comment_3766729
Yep, once the Survivors have double or triple the gens as hooks, hooks can count as an extra state. Once someone is fully dead, gens count as extra equal to the number dead.
That sounds really frustrating for everyone...
Imagine dying because random survivor popped a gen at moment you were about to get hooked etc.
It also promotes slugging a lot as a killer, so I make sure I have survivor ready to die as soon there is 1 gen left, but they are kinda "impossible" for me to hook/kill at 2 gens left. Just don't bring basekit unbreakable again...
Then survivors can 99 gen at 2 gens left, someone gives up on hook and they skip last gen... What a fun experience for the killer
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@Testoviron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767143#Comment_3767143
>the next group has nothing to do with it
80% of survivors are like that. Taking it out on a random group of survs has a very high likelihood of them getting their just desserts.But they are not reason why you got angry.
And I think 80% is little bit too high, but I usually don't give survivors an option to go on power trip, which is where they usually show true colors...
My best advice for anyone is always be in control of the game. Doesn't matter if it is by the killer choice or build.
I always start slow (trying to hook everyone), then if survivors annoy me, I will try to get someone out asap and kill everyone else, sometimes bleed out depends how much they annoyed me.
But I am never going to go full tryhard from start just because last group annoyed me. That's an unhealthy approach imo.
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@NotJared said:
The Knight rework has skyrocketed Knight's ability to stall games out into something unprecedently powerful, comparable to early Skull Merchant if not worse.
These issues are exponentially worse when The Knight tunnels a player out of the game. His ability to chase 2 survivors at once and Jailer's long Banner spawn duration can guarantee entire 24-second-long durations where one or fewer survivors are able to even touch a generator.
Content creator CoconutRTS has taken advantage of what I've been warning about and demonstrated what I've been seeing in games here:
Even if he isn't successful in every match, he still demonstrates Knight's ability to stall out matches to painfully long durations - 46 minute long matches should not be normal with any killer!
Have you actually watch the video?
First game he simply lost, quite fast.
Second game he had best setup possible (salloon, ruin inside 3-gen), yet he lost when he tried to hold 3-gen from start. So knight with best possible setup can't hold 3-gen against 4 survivors...
So in third game he had to tunnel from first hook, which gave survivors an option to break his 3-gen, or cleanse the ruin. They didn't do it, then they tried combat 4 gen as 3 survivors against ruin and almost actually did it...
That's not just Knight. You had first hook tunneling, one of best maps for 3-genning, optimal ruin spawn and survivors who didn't try to break 3-gen early, or cleanse ruin.
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@NotJared said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767294#Comment_3767294
We saw exactly how this is not a stretch. We saw how on-release Skull Merchant was able to stall games out: Despite being an M1 killer, all she needed to do was create scenarios where approaching generators would cost you health states. With her instadown, this meant throwing pallets was incredibly important to not going down. Eventually, the generators would become deadzones and there was nothing Survivors
Knight recreates a very similar situation, but because he doesn't instadown, he chips away at health states and pallets until deadzones are created, and merely entering an area that Jailer is patrolling results in either a hit if you stand still, or 24 seconds of chase while you wait for a banner to spawn.
We saw exactly how this is not a stretch
It's a stretch because it's not holding the game hostage. Survivors can give up at any moment.
You can just keep working on gen in front of the killer and they have to kill you, or slug you.
Survivors have options.
It's holding the game only when other side has nothing to do about it. Like blocking survivor in corner, or staying in spot which killer can't reach etc.
You can either try to combat 3-gen, which because how save you need to play, we can as well consider survivors holding the game hostage, or survivors can simply give up.
At no point is that holding hostage situation.
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@Yggleif said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767256#Comment_3767256
I mean fair but that was a typo I meant I was running into it every other game, whether it was people I was unhooking or me getting unhooked even though I wasn't running the perks.
Oh, alright.
Just saying that's why I assumed it.
Issue is most players don't really track changes, current bugs etc.
So they will just keep using their old perks and are unlikely realize that's the problem of the bug.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767286#Comment_3767286
This isn't a stretch, it's literally the devs own words:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/521124#Comment_521124
This applies to extended 3 genning, specifically when the killer isn't trying to hook anyone, but just holding gens until the game closes.
Yeah, but how use it is a huge stretch.
"not progress the game for an extended period"
Well, generators are survivors objective... That's what they need to do, if they want to progress the game. So is it really the killer who holds the game hostage?
Generators are definitely something killer should defend.
If I never see survivor in position where it's possible for me to down them fast, why should I commit and lose the game? I can just keep waiting for a mistake...
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762028#Comment_3762028
You've gotta explain to me how this is any different than wraith doing the same thing.
I don't think it's an issue, but main difference would be Wraith has actually good chance to win the game (get hits/downs)
Knight same as old Skully can just stall the game, but is unlikely to actually get downs on survivors unless he gives up 3-gen, survivors give up or make massive mistake.
But that's what they get with a bad rework...
Luckily I don't think it's an issue with 3-gen feature limiting this.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762166#Comment_3762166
You don't even have to kick gens to hold a game hostage.
According to the game rules, and the devs have confirmed, you only have to 'not progress the game for an extended period'.
So even just camping a 3 gen, without attempting to down or hook survivors for an extended time is holding a game hostage. No kicking, or regression events required.
without attempting to down or hook survivors for an extended time is holding a game hostage.
Really stretching the meaning here...
How exactly you are holding 3-gen without attempting to injure / down a survivor? That would mean survivors are free to work on gens in front of the killer.
Otherwise if survivors refuse to come close to the killer, aren't they the one holding the game hostage? They refuse to work on gens, which is their objective...
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3767199#Comment_3767199
Those numbers are from before her buff. The 64% is from nightlight which is notorious for often reporting kill rates that are lower than the official ones.
Not really in this chase.
Statistics are more likely to be submitted by actual Twin mains, which of course are going to have higher kill rates.
Someone who picks Twins for challenge or something is unlikely to perform that well and submit it to nightlight.
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@Mooks said:
The bug should not be implemented as a feature just the way it is (after death one gen gets completed). It would be punishing for any deaths no matter how the killer/the survivors played and be highly abusable.
Though some similar catch-up feature would be appreciated. It would need to be dependent on multiple conditions (how many hooks did killer get in total, was there camping/hook phase lost involved, how many gens are already done, how much time into the match it is, how much gen progress did the survivor killed contribute directly/indirectly through chase).
I like phrasing of this one.
This feature would mean showing hook counter to the killer, because you can't really punish something killer doesn't know about, or shouldn't at least...
So I wouldn't mind. I like to go for 8 hooks, so hook counter would make my life way easier.