TimberGoingDown
TimberGoingDown
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972441#Comment_3972441
You can. You are just going to be at a disadvantage.
Much like how, if you were playing Survivor, if you brought a healing build against a Plague. Or a stealth build against a Mirror Myers. Or a gen build if you get tunneled. It isn't uncommon to be denied your intended playstyle and if that's the bare minimum for lobby dodging, we should get rid of the lobby entirely.
Fact of the matter is that there is no removal of power like how toolboxes used to be able to permanently break Trapper traps.
And you can choose to play at a massive disadvantage if you want to. I choose to not do so. Because I play to have fun. And having a survivor with a map running behind you dismantling all your traps? Not fun. Having someone drop a Fog Vial every time you try to phase? Not fun. Fog Vials in general are absolutely obnoxious, even when it doesn't hard counter your power and leave you as an M1 110 killer.
You take this game waaaaay too seriously. It's a video game. I'm not going to intentionally put myself at a massive disadvantage for funsies.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972211#Comment_3972211
You're playing Spirit. Learn to use your ears instead of your eyes.
Tell me, how do you use your ears when survivors have no audio whatsoever?
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@Lixadonna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972426#Comment_3972426
Mind games. People love them.
Which is fine… except when it negates a killer's entire power and turns her into a 4.4 M1 killer.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972434#Comment_3972434
So you'd rather dodge the lobby and force someone else to be backfilled into it, all while looking for an easier match?
No better than the people who dodged Prestiges, imo.
I assume then, in order to remain consistent in your stances, that you dislike Killers who invalidate items and entire builds with their powers as well?
I'm not looking for an "easier" match. I'm looking for a match that I actually get to use the killer power that I chose to play with.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972355#Comment_3972355
And?
I don't see any reason to manipulate matchmaking and make the experience worse for someone else.
I hate to say it, but items and addons have ALWAYS affected certain Killers more than others. That's just how it is.
"You should have a guaranteed horrible match due to no fault of your own, or else someone else might have a bad match!"
F that. If Behavior wants to make it so certain items hard counter certain killers, I'll just… not play against those items when I'm playing those killers. Right now, the only interaction that remains is Fog Vials and Spirit. They've intentionally removed every other item/power hard counter.
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@Lixadonna said:
People making it sound like Spirit is handicapped. Just search the Fog area and it's obvious Survivors will hide in it. If it works the first time it will continue to work on you.
And if they don't stay in the fog area? While you're stumbling around blind in the fog, they get massive distance. It's basically an "I win this chase" button that you get to press every 60 seconds.
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@MDRSan said:
My god, the hyperbole on this forum.
Survivors don't know what killer they're getting until after the game starts. If they do only start bringing Fog Vials then doesn't that solve the great Med Kit panic of 2025 all the killers were running around like panicked Muppets about, arms flailing in the air?
Spirit isn't dead unless you're telling me you are incapable of getting a down without being able to phase track survivors for 100% of a match's duration. If that's what you're saying then it sounds like a skill issue more than an issue with Fog Vials.
No item should be a hard counter to specific killer's power. We've removed every other interaction that counters killer powers.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972365#Comment_3972365
I don't know that them being unlimited use is the problem, that's just a neat twist that gives them an edge over other items when you're deciding what to use.
If there's an issue with fog vials it'll be in what they do, not necessarily how often you can use them. An obnoxious and/or overpowered effect is still a problem even if you can only use it once- whatever problems exist I'd rather they be balanced around the infinite use, that'd be much more interesting and engaging for everyone.
Honestly, I'd prefer if items were infinite use, then balanced around that. Like toolboxes would slowly recharge over time, but be less powerful. Same with medkits. Smaller, more consistent benefits.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972304#Comment_3972304
I've made a specific point of passing along your concerns about how The Spirit's power interacts with Fog Vials 👍️
Thanks, I honestly appreciate it.
Good luck dealing with the tidal wave that comes with every new patch.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972259#Comment_3972259
Why would you need to purposely manipulate the matchmaking against flashlights as Wraith or maps as Trapper?
Because someone with a map could see every trap on the map and either disarm all of Trapper's traps, or just relay that information back to their team. It's like playing with one arm behind your back, while you're already playing the weakest character in the game.
And flashlights burned Wraith out of his power, stunning him for like 5 seconds and basically making him feel awful to play.
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@n2njauwu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972301#Comment_3972301
well that kinda sucks, im all for making survivor new items to make new gameplay for survivor side but it shouldnt make specific killer unplayable
Spirit supposedly operates on an "alternate plane" while phasing, so there's a built-in lore reason why her phases would be immune to Fog Vials. That's really what they should do, is just make it so that Fog Vials are nullified for the Spirit while she's in phase.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey folks. I really appreciate all of your feedback on the Fog Vial in here. We're actively collecting this feedback in order to bring it back to the team, so please know, it's being read.
As you get chances to encounter this item in the wild, please don't hesitate to share your in-game experiences here. Specifics about what feels good and what doesn't (like the note about The Spirit above!) are super helpful.
Spirit's power is that she operates on an "alternate plane" while phasing, right? So why can't we just make that "alternate plane" immune to the effects of Fog Vials?
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@n2njauwu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972253#Comment_3972253
didnt they remove muffled sound from those vials ?
Yup. And they replaced it with completely muting all survivor sounds.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972251#Comment_3972251
I understand your concern, an item that can several different effects split between multiple perks sounds extremely oppressive. But I think we will have to wait and see how it all plays out first before insisting that the killer won't be able to be successful because of it. I feel comparing it to Huntress without hatches isn't a great analogy either because Spirit's power isn't entirely negated even when scratch marks are harder to read. She can still get fast repositioning, mind-game potential, and map pressure that other 4.4 killers like her don't have. A huntress without hatches simply cannot physically make the hatchet play at all, the spirit can still use her power but it isn't as guarenteed as before.
But again, if you're right and this absolutely guts her killrate, I will gladly stand right beside you and demand compensation buffs until it comes back to at least a 60%. Spirit players deserve the ability to have success with this killer, and it is of my opinion that it is too soon to tell if item is going to prevent that success. I understand you feel differently, and that's okay.
Fog Vials eliminate scratch marks and all survivor audio, including breathing and vaulting. It is literally impossible to track a survivor through phasing while a Fog Vial is in play. Except if you use Cherry Blossom. I guess we're back to the MDR/Blossom days.
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They just introduced an item that can be used every 40 seconds that completely negates Spirit's power and turns her into a blind 4.4 M1 killer. I think survivors are doing fine.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972233#Comment_3972233
BHVR basically took the event fog crystals, made the area up to 2.7 TIMES LARGER, then added survivor audio removal, and survivor aura removal. And made the item automatically recharge.
This is beyond awful. How on earth was the fog crystals considered "too weak", and that we needed all these things added to it???
As a Spirit main… I don't even want to play anymore. At least not right now. There's no point. Everyone and their brother will be using the item that basically removes her entire power, so you won't even be able to lobby dodge it. Which is what you'll have to do. Spirit will now have to dodge any lobby that has a Fog Vial, just like Trapper did with maps or Wraith did with flashlights.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972229#Comment_3972229
If you read my post my argument was twofold. 10 seconds isn't an extended period of time. At most you lose out on a single phase. Meaning you have 50 seconds before they can do it again. That's plenty of time for even a decent Spirit to get a down. The Vials will be a petty annoyance, not a death blow.
You would be an absolute fool to keep chasing a survivor that had used a Fog Vial.
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@hermitkermit said:
I think it's far too soon to tell if this item is going to damage her kill rates or not. I am certain that if that is the case, that if we see her success plummet from her 66% to les than 60%, then I'm sure the devs will buff her accordingly. There are plenty of perks in-game that can make tracking sounds and scratch marks/blood more difficult, but I don't believe they've made her unviable.
No, but there's no one perk that does it all. Lucky Break only does scratch marks and pools of blood. Iron Will only does grunts of pain. Quick and Quiet ONLY does vault noises and lockers. I can't think of a perk that removes breathing noises. I think there's a perk that muffles footsteps. Lightfooted?
The point is, that Spirit can counter each of these individual perks by using one of her other methods of tracking. Nothing does it all, and most of these perks are conditional. For instance, Iron Will is directly countered by Genetic Limits because of the exhaustion limitation. So if a survivor REALLY wants to counter Spirit completely, it would take an entire build to do so, and it would still be able to be countered somewhat.
Now, you have an item that does everything, and recharges in about 40 seconds.
Spirit is a 4.4 killer. She can't just "not use her power." You know how Huntress feels when she runs out of hatchets? Yeah, imagine being reduced to that every chase.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972215#Comment_3972215
That is with the Iri
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NJOWE7GKYAHW/image.png
That is the base item on the Garden Of Joy. BHVR decided to buff the opacity of the base item, even though they made ZERO NERFS to the other things this item hides.
And according to the patch notes, the fog magically removes survivor noises, but doesn't remove killer noises. As in, survivors are still completely silent, but it's "supposed to be ok" because it doesn't make the muffled noise anymore.
That's absolutely disgusting. This might be the worst patch they've released in a loooooong time. "Heal one survivor and get infinite unbreakable! Here's an item that covers half the map and makes you completely undetectable by any means! By the way, we murdered a C tier killer and introduced a new item that drops a popular A tier killer into the dumpster! Have fun!"
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972209#Comment_3972209
I understand what the concern is. I just don't see it as a lasting issue.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972211#Comment_3972211
I understand how powerful it can be. However as I said I'm pretty sure they won't be used much after a couple of weeks. Even if they were they can't be constantly spammed. The effect lasts what 10 seconds? At worst they make you waste one phase because of the Vials. I'm not saying it won't be annoying, it absolutely will. I'm just not convinced it'll be nearly as crippling as you're predicting.
"It's okay that a survivor item completely counters a killer and turns them into an M1 4.4 killer for an extended period of time because survivors might not bring that item all the time."
So what you're basically saying is we're back to lobby dodging. Like Wraith used to do with flashlights, and Trapper used to do with toolboxes.
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972195#Comment_3972195
Fog Vials definitely should have charges. However. Personally I don't think Fog Vials will be a very common item.
A week or 2 after the update, the lobbies will be back to 4 medkits with syringes and styptics.
Nah man. I don't want to go back to lobby dodging like I used to have to do with Trapper and maps. Because if you play Spirit, that's what you'll have to do. A single Fog Vial neuters you just as much, if not more, than maps neutered Trapper.
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You guys can downvote me all you want, but I notice that NONE of you have a counter argument. This item MURDERS Spirit.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972200#Comment_3972200
Tbh I think you're overreacting on the Fog Vials. They'll be annoying for a couple of weeks until the novelty wears off. After that I doubt they'll be used much by anyone playing seriously.
I'm sorry, I don't think you understand how powerful an "I escape chase" button really is.
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This is a really bad patch all around. Spirit got murdered, too. Fog Vials make survivors literally untrackable in phase.
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@Astel said:
Because of Fog Vial you mean?
Yeah. She has no counter to it. It literally makes the survivor untrackable while in phase. No scratch marks, no noise whatsoever, and you can barely see the ground to even look for moving grass. Any survivor that brings a Fog Vial can make Spirit into a 4.4 M1 killer every 60 seconds.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972181#Comment_3972181
If you ignore the many buffs, ok
Those are inconsequential next to that one patch note that makes his purple bottles basically useless.
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The base item was buffed from PTB to live. It's more opaque and completely mutes ALL survivor audio. No vault noises, no grunts of pain. No breathing. No footsteps. No noise at all.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972168#Comment_3972168
He's getting buffed tho?
- Decreased the Hindered effect linger time from Afterpiece Tonic gas clouds to 1 second (was 2).
This is the patch note that kills him.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972168#Comment_3972168
Franklin too... It was my favorite perk, and it's now completely useless :(
And the Fog Vials are now just "anti-Spirit" items. No sound at all? No grunts of pain, no breathing, no footsteps. And it has infinite uses, so it will be available for every single chase. Absolutely busted af. I think this is the patch that makes me take another break from this game.
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You guys really went through with butchering the Clown.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971597#Comment_3971597
Actually no, if PR doesnt pop on the first hook, it could be because the killer didn't have a scourge hook within range or chose to save it for later. Then if it is PR I have to remember which specific survivors had their PR used and sometimes I would be wrong because it wasn't used on their first hook and the killer ended up having it for the second.
If a killer has DMS, it's pretty safe to bet that they have PR.
Second, you don't "have to remember which survivors have been PR'd." Just let go of the gen for literally one second while the killer hooks anyone.
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@jiogo1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971572#Comment_3971572
If we're talking about buffs, we could set the preparation speed to 2s and remove the brown gloves. The other addon that gives 50% readiness speed could just be nerfed to 20%, and that's it.
We have a trapper going from 2.5s to readiness to 2.0s without addons.
Lol. That's literally the same thing as we have now.
2.0 / 1.2 = 1.67
2.5/1.5 = 1.67Except right now, I can run Gloves + Tools and get 1.39 seconds.
You don't need compensation nerfs for Trapper. He is the weakest killer in the game (except Skull Merchant.) Even reducing his trap setting speed to 2 seconds while keeping the addons as they are wouldn't make him broken. He would still need to stand still for 1.11 seconds to set a trap while using BOTH addons. And that might actually make his power somewhat usable in chase. Set a trap at a loop, get 7.5% Haste for 5 seconds to try to catch the survivor before they move to the next loop.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452138/average-party-size-2019-what-do-you-think
My matches do feel hell a lot like cordinated 3 to 4 stacks, not all of them feel like it but almost every next aka second match i get are people who are nowhere to be seen, i run full myers stealth build, so only premonition works againts me but when i check they never run any of those perks.
Either way i dont just lightly accuse people but it feels a hell a lot like hacking tools because i get it map tiling exists but this is outrageous.
One match i manage to wipe the floor i get left with 3 to 4 gens then next match one to two hooks and gen rush without me bring able to even see them majority of match and i do my stalking very seriously
Definitely a lot of cheaters out there these days. Gens that are blank one moment, then come back around 30 seconds later and they're near done, with no survivors to be seen, even with Nowhere to Hide. They're like ghosts.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971570#Comment_3971570
You couldn't tell in the first chase if someone had dead hard?
Yes, but then I had to guess if the second one had DH. And the third. And the fourth. And then I had to remember which specific survivors had DH, and sometimes I would be wrong because they simply misused it in the first chase and actually ended up having it for the second.
DMS + PR makes itself known after one hook. If you get hit by it after that, then that's on you.
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Lol. The one realistic thing about this "buff," and I use the term loosely, is that you give him half of an addon as basekit, then make the addon worthless to run on top of it, while making the total value of basekit + addon to be WORSE than what it is before the so-called "buff."
All so you don't make it "overpowered."
Bro. It's freaking Trapper. You don't need to give him half a dozen compensation nerfs. You could HALVE his trap setting speed, and he still would be C tier. Ffs.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971520#Comment_3971520
Oh you mean like how every time a teammate gets picked up, everyone has to alter their entire playstyle by letting go of all gens being worked on to account for a perk that the killer may or may not have?
Every time? You couldn't tell the first time if they had DMS/Pain Res?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971520#Comment_3971520
Well, I actually mean they, myself included, knew to expect it. It wouldn't catch you off guard, and I don't think it was causing kill rates to drop substantially.
It wasn't fair though.
I, for one, am happy I no longer have to run behind survivors for 5-10 seconds flicking my camera to bait DH every down.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971523#Comment_3971523
Its also essentially the only time where if something is even being considered an attack or not is iffy. If I send a dog to a survivor and they choose not to move... thats not an attack. If I do that same exact thing and they try to vault, now its attack.
Not really. The dog will attempt to grab you. If you are mid-animation and can't be grabbed, it will instead damage you. Pretty simple.
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@Moodyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971483#Comment_3971483
Because killers are in first person (except for chucky).
Fun fact, Chucky's FoV is the same as other killers. You're basically an invisible killer in 1st Person following behind a murder doll. I don't know about Dracula, though.
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I think that it works just fine as is. You can cycle through the guards as fast or faster than Vecna chooses spells. I think the Knight has more pressing issues than the UI for guard selection.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971490#Comment_3971490
Fun condratrition with that one is Houndmaster. Depending on the timing of the bite, the dog itself can injure or down. Dog by itself=special attack. Getting double teamed by dog AND master though... is apparently basic.
That's not a contradiction.
The dog is something that damages the survivor that isn't the Houndmaster's main weapon = special attack
The dog holding the survivor in place so that the Houndmaster can damage with her main weapon = basic attack
The Houndmaster hitting with her blade while the survivor is pinned by the dog feels like a basic attack. It uses the basic attack animation, lunge, etc. The dog damaging by itself doesn't feel like a basic attack, and isn't the Houndmaster's main weapon, so therefore it's a special.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971492#Comment_3971492
It hurts specific killers that rely on LOS, but then again, no one uses the corn to hide anymore. They should just reduce the density as you said and compensate with new structure loops
It's not that survivors use the corn to hide, it's that the corn obscures scratchmarks, pools of blood, and LoS. It's very easy to lose survivors in the corn fields, even temporarily, which lets the survivor reach another resource that may be stronger.
I honestly don't feel like the Coldwind maps are that bad for either side, but if they were to buff the structures, then they need to nerf the corn to compensate.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971493#Comment_3971493
Yeah, that was probably the best perk survivors still had back then. Overpowered, sure, but most killers were used to it, I'd say.
If by "used to it," you mean "was forced to alter their entire playstyle to account for a perk that the survivor may or may not have," then yes.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971463#Comment_3971463
we haven't seen the alternative
We have… kinda.
For quite a long time, DBD was explicitly balanced around the desired outcome of 2 kills and 2 escapes, on average. I'm sure there are records of this out there.
However, eventually there was a concern that killers weren't dangerous enough, and changes were made to make them more lethal. 6.1.0 and many patches after that, basically.
What is really interesting though is the fact that, by the time patch 6.1.0 happened, survivors had already lost many of their strongest resources. There wasn't one specific overpowered perk or item that was drastically reducing the killer's lethality.
Dead Hard.
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The problem is, the cornfields themselves are very good at helping survivors lose chase. If we're going to add more pallets and such, then the corn needs to be less dense so that they're more of an aesthetic thing than something survivors can use to lose chase.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971435#Comment_3971435
That right there is why this whole discussion is kinda moot. The only difference between a basic attack and a special attack is if BHVR says its not a basic attack for balance sake it seems. Deathslinger downing someone after using his power to shoot them counts as a basic attack, while Huntress using HER power to down someone while moving at 4.4 too is a special attack.
I think there is some logic that Behavior uses. For instance, every attack that is executed by pressing M2 is a special attack. Huntress hatches, Kaneki leaps, Artist crows, Xeno tails, etc. This also applies to any attack where you damage the survivor with anything other than your base weapon (Nemi whips, Wesker dashes)
Every attack that is ONLY procced by pressing M1 is a basic attack.
The only grey area are attacks that involve both M2 and M1, while also dealing damage with the base weapon. Spirit phases, Deathslinger reels, Nurse blinks, Blight rushes, etc. Whether these attacks count as basic or special attacks seem to be entirely up to balance, and also if it feels like a basic attack.
When we're talking about Spirit, her attack doesn't feel like a special attack. It feels like a basic attack after the end of a phase because she can choose not to attack at all and there's no fatigue or punishment. She can continue to chase like normal. Whether she attacks or not is completely up to the player. Meanwhile, even though Blight rushes use the exact same buttons, they feel like a special attack. It's a dash that ends with a swing, but you can choose to swing early. Either way, you're going through the cooldown animation. Same with Nurse.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971423#Comment_3971423
Im kinda surprised Spirit hasn't gotten the Nurse treatment yet. Her ability is a movement ability meant for allowing her to rapidly close distance and land a attack with her only weapon... like we can see with Nurse, Blight, and Chucky.
Spirit isn't really at Nurse level, though, especially since the nerfs. I also don't think her ability is powerful enough to make it an M2 while keeping her a 4.4 killer. If they were to make her post phase attacks not count as a basic attack, I think it would be fair to increase her movement speed to 4.6 like Blight or Kaneki.
Plus, I bet it'd be a nightmare to code. How long after a phase would her attacks not count as basic attacks? One second? Two?
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@TiredDBDenjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971411#Comment_3971411
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9R8W4DG0E3AX/screenshot-3375.png
I've noticed non-USA regions typically have better queues, but I am definitely waiting 3-5 minutes on average for a killer match.
Strange. I'm US, but haven't noticed extremely long queues.
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This map sucks for everyone. The downstairs is basically where killers go to throw the game. The upstairs is a barren wasteland with no resources. When I play on this map, I avoid the downstairs like the plague. I avoid it more than I do any other main building in the game.
You have to fix both of these things simultaneously or you end up making the most one-sided map in the game. If you make the downstairs more fair for killer, but don't fix the upstairs, then it becomes massively killer sided. If you fix the upstairs, but leave the downstairs as it is, then it becomes massively survivor sided.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970990#Comment_3970990
The point isn't necessarily literally basic attack/special attack, it's how the power is designed to aid in damage.
Nurse is admittedly kind of a unique case, as she is in many ways, but I do think she works as an M2 killer in this context because using her power incurs a fatigue/cooldown. That puts it more in line with stuff like a Demo lunge or a Blight rush or a Hillbilly dash, y'know? It's a power that deals damage with specific constraints as opposed to a power that speeds her up for a regular basic attack or some such, the way killers like Wraith, Spirit, Clown, etc have.
She's definitely weird either way though.
Spirit is a unique case where she's kind of an M1/M2 hybrid. Her power makes her post-phase M1's act almost like an M2. However, I think most other killers can be described as M1 or M2 based on how they get the majority of their damage, and if their M2 is a direct ability or if it's more indirect.
For instance, the Knight is an M1 killer, despite the fact that he CAN get damage off of his M2. Skull Merchant is an M1 killer, despite getting damage off her M2. Same goes for Trapper.