TimberGoingDown
TimberGoingDown
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
My problem with Vigil isn't even so much the stacking, that was never a problem before they buffed it. I think 66% recovery percentage is simply way too high considering how many status effects it has an effect on. I was completely okay with it going from 30% to 40% like they had originally said, I don't think that would've been a big deal. Stacking is so strong now because even just 2 Vigils now gives you more than what the stacked effect of 4 Vigils gave before, which basically never happened. The problem is the actual number, even just a single instance of Vigil can be a game-changer both for buffing exhaustions as well as significantly nerfing several perks and addons, the vast majority of which are off-meta too.
The only other thing I'd want to see changed is have it not affect anything from a killer's base power, so ie. Clown and Freddy Hindered shouldn't be affected. If you do that and change the number back to 40% (and not 66%) I think the perk would be fine and would still be quite good. But just removing the stacking and otherwise leaving it as is would be insufficient imo.
100% agreed.
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My killer queues are short now that the event is over. Maybe a minute?
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@Amanova said:
Survivors cant have a "good" perks is in it? Then no one will buy Quentin hun, devs won't sacrifice money for such sweats like that person on video!
Where's the perk that reduces basic attack cooldowns by 60%?
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No. I think we missed our chance.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970619#Comment_3970619
Sure.
Quite honestly, I care very little for .006% of matches, or whatever arbitrary percentage they make make up.
We will not be buffing Killers prior to adjusting tunneling and slugging. Killers already control the flow of the game, no need to make them more powerful.
Ideally, we'd do it at the same time, but I don't think BHVR can. That leaves two options.
We either don't do it at all, which seems doomed to result in a slow death, or we try it and are prepared to make large adjustments to Killers or Survivors, whichever tips the balances in the correct way.
"Killers or survivors, whichever tips the balances in the correct way."
I'm sorry, in what universe will eliminating tunneling and slugging result in killers overperforming lol?
Regardless, Behavior shouldn't make such massive adjustments to basic game systems without having appropriate reciprocal buffs primed and ready to go. If they do their normal, "wait, collect data, then start working on adjustments," then we'll be looking at 6 months to a year of an absolutely miserable killer experience. And that, I believe, will result in a very quick death. Overbuffing the "survivor" role is what killed TCM, VHS, Dragonball the Breakers, and most other games in this genre. It's been shown time and time again that making the "killer" role feel too weak results in a mass exodus of killers, which leads to massive survivor queues. Then, the game slowly bleeds survivors until the playerbase is a fraction of what it was. The devs try to make emergency buffs to the killer role, but it's almost always too little, too late.
Don't forget, DBD almost suffered this exact fate prior to 6.1.0. Behavior needs to tread very, very carefully.
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Spirit.
Fix her duration addons and the addons that actively make her power worse. Replace Cherry Blossom, because you should be learning how to phase properly. Fix the bugged audio addon.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970609#Comment_3970609
Alright. I suppose that's an absolute winstreak.
Hens' streak was a 3E streak, so I feel it would be fair to use the 3K streaks as well. They are wins by any metric.
I did also edit my previous comment, as I said I would.
Wild that even Clown has a higher streak than Spirit.
If anything, Clown holding a higher winstreak than Spirit should tell you that win streaks aren't the end all be all of what's powerful and what's not. Surely we can agree that Spirit is better than Clown, right?
My point still stands. Hens and his friends amassed a 300 winstreak while actively nerfing themselves. Surely, that's a problem if killer winstreaks are.
But you've been carefully dodging my point. My point is that even the best killers in the world have to tunnel and slug when faced against survivors of roughly equal skill. Once you reach a certain tier of survivor, they're going to get gens done. You can't twelve hook them. You have to play strategically. Sometimes, you need to snowball for the win.
I just finished a game where I had two gens done in the first chase. A third went in my second chase. Mind you, DMS was still procced on the gen hit by Pain Res from my first hook, so I wasn't over here getting ran. My hits and downs were pretty quick. I managed to tunnel someone out as the final gen went, got a hook in the back corner before the gates opened, then slugged the rest as they botched the save, then got too altruistic trying to save the hooked survivor. Ended up with a 4k, but I literally had to tunnel and slug to even stand a chance. If I hadn't tunneled, I wouldn't have gotten a single kill. If I hadn't slugged at the end, I would have gotten two. If the survivors hadn't have thrown the game at the end, I would have gotten one, maybe two kills.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970603#Comment_3970603
https://youtu.be/C8C7Iy3VxYk?feature=shared
found a higher one immediately.
Will update in a
That's a 3k streak. I said 4k/3k+H
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970591#Comment_3970591
Key word, some. And of course we should be cautious, we've waited almost ten years after all. I jest, but yes, a measured approach, to be sure.
Potentially a hot take but you shouldn't be able to win hundreds of matches in a row. Can't remember off the top of my head what the highest Spirit streak is, but I know Rayoxium had a 400+ game streak going at one point.
That's insane, and while it is certainly impressive, it honestly shouldn't be possible and indicates where the power truly lies.
The highest 4k/3k+H is held by Remylea at 398.
By the way, Hens and his team also had a 400+ win streak, all while playing comp rules where they limited their perks, items and addons. Surely that's where the power lies, yes? If survivors can win almost 500 matches in a row while actively heavy nerfing themselves, something needs to be addressed, right? Or is it only concerning when killers get massive winstreaks?
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@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970432#Comment_3970432
No my killer main is Michael. I honestly feel killer is too easy. I don't even go for any kills if I'm having fun jump scaring everyone one. If the survs don't know how to communicate or are toxic then I kill them but its not a challenge. It WAS a challenge back in the day. I used to run matches that would last until the timer ran out. That's too long for little kids but it was sure fun and involved skill and strategy. Something these kids now don't know how to use. I explained a lot of what I and my friends were discussing about the old days. As far as the hatch difference, It was very challenging for either party to find hatch in the old days. Now its pretty instant to find, there's a pattern and usually spawns at killer shack without any offerings or right next to killer 9/10 times. Ive been playing since 2017 so its not hard to see the difference.
"I don't go for kills"
"Killer is too easy"
Cause and effect. If you played to win, you'd go against good survivors who aren't new players hiding in corners, and then the game wouldn't be so easy. Problem solved.
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@drag27 said:
so thats what, 4 nerfs the ghoul has gotten
I don't know why you are surprised. Blight and Nurse are the only S tier killers allowed. Any new killer that accidentally ends up in S tier will be nerfed to A or B tier shortly after release.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970521#Comment_3970521
We really have no data on that besides anecdotal evidence.
Once again, anecdotally, I think a few Killers would need buffs, in addition to the one's that need help now, but everyone from A-tier up isn't going to be affected all that much.
I'm sorry, if even the best Spirit in the world is out here having to tunnel and slug against some of these teams, then I think we should be really cautious about just nuking every macro strategy killer has.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970482#Comment_3970482
I never said tunneling and slugging were "busted." I said that they were more integral to killers playing well than MfT was to survivors playing well.
That is literally just a euphemism for the exact same thing! In both cases, you're describing a gap between normal results and the results attained by using that particular tool. You're insisting that the gap was less wide in MFT's case. And MFT was considered obscene.
Because after one bad chase, you might as well throw in the towel if you can't reasonably pressure survivors anymore.
The reason you're losing 200 in a row isn't anything to do with non-tunnelling/camping being supposedly non-viable. Your own skill as a killer is a part of this equation, and it's one that's been omitted because it could always be supplanted by just using these incredibly simple 'tactics' for instant results.
Everyone worth their salt knows that the killer is stronger in the lategame when the playing field shrinks and resources run out, but you want to quit because you don't instantly win on first chase.
No, it's not. Words have definitions, bud. If you get rid of tunneling and slugging, you'll either have to giga-buff killers in literally every other way, or you'll have to nerf survivors drastically. Otherwise, the game will be dead in six months.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970473#Comment_3970473
This game is not competitive and shouldn't be balance around knowledge about every aspect of possible scenarios. As I mentioned it's like old eruption, while in teams it was useless perk, in solo q it's absolute stomper.
Oh, please. The game is very competitive. Any game that directly pits two opposing sides against each other is, by definition, competitive. Not only that, but considering how toxic survivors are when they win, I always play to win.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969994#Comment_3969994
Don't ask questions you already know the answer to.
None. That's the answer, right? SWFing should just be an automatic "I WIN" button, and we should sacrifice killers on the altar of "Won't someone think of the solo queue?"
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969976#Comment_3969976
I'm sorry, but do you think occasionally winning matches against obviously bad players while losing the vast majority of the time is fun?
I mean, that's kinda where survivor is at, but slightly worse because you can easily lose, even against bad players, due to the tactics that are the subject of this thread…
But also, it wouldn't even need to be a 'vast majority'. You could even keep a positive winrate while still declining in MMR. Remember that the way your MMR shifts is also based on the distance between you and your opponent. So if you win against lowbies, and then lose against lowbies, your MMR will overall still go down, even if that's a 50% winrate.
And it's not the same as a new toy. The difference between the game now and forced 12 hooking is a lot wider than Made For This.
You mean that tunnelling, camping and slugging are -significantly- more broken than Made For This was?
And that's an argument to KEEP IT!?
Killer queues only ever get bad during events or new releases.
That's still a problem though. It's supposed to grow the community and it's getting stunted because no one wants to play survivor!
That's a mighty fine strawman you've got there.
I never said tunneling and slugging were "busted." I said that they were more integral to killers playing well than MfT was to survivors playing well. If BHVR goes overboard and just basically deletes every comeback mechanic that killers have, you'll see them just afk'ing after one bad chase. Because after one bad chase, you might as well throw in the towel if you can't reasonably pressure survivors anymore.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970120#Comment_3970120
I’m not going to go back and forth with you over semantics. Especially when you’re including examples of snowballing, but I would not classify effectively ending the game via slugging full stop as snowballing.Tbh not hooking anyone and repeatedly slugging until you get all 4 down is probably something I would classify as excessive slugging. We can agree to disagree.
Nobody is saying that survivors should get zero punishment for mistakes. Sometimes things need to be reigned in for overall health and balancing of the game, bridging gaps, and bringing playstyles more in line. I’ve had plenty of things I like nerfed to some degree over the years for the overall health or balancing of the game either because it was used as “griefing”(even though in most cases it guaranteed wins and was used as “strategy”) or in specific scenarios it was too strong. That’s just DbD, and always has been. If it’s okay to iron out all the “perfectly good strategies” for survivor because it makes killers “feel bad” “or is too strong in the right hands”, why does that not apply to killer and how survivors feel going against some things because it feels like overkill, it feels busted,mismatched, and is also used for griefing putting people not in 4 stacks in what feels like a helpless situation where there is no winning and even worse it’s boring and not fun.
Honestly if you’re that good, maybe you shouldn’t get lobbies but against anything but 4stacks. Some of these strats requires comms to overcome or even be balanced in the slightest.Because the way I look at it is(and I’ve played everything from solo to sweating swf, and played killer off and on over the years)either they separate entirely people who play this way from mixed lobbies, or throw a bone to help even the playing field and balance around it.
Not only is it unbalanced against almost anyone but 4stacks, it’s just not fun for people who aren’t in a 4stack because you’re on the ground relying on your teammates to hive mind.
If you want people to understand killer concerns and be empathetic maybe you should try giving that back, because the issue here with slugging and tunneling is the disparity between being on 4man comms and not being on comms in a mixed lobby.
They have a constant feedback loop, mixed lobbies don’t. If they keep buffing killer issues without addressing mixed lobby issues the gap just grows bigger. That doesn’t even account for skill difference when playing with friends, or just mmr doing its best with what it has to work with.
Yeah sometimes not picking up teammates is the case, but it’s not always the case. Things are nuanced, and sometimes it’s about the bigger picture.
You "don't want to argue semantics" because you're wrong. Words have meanings. That's why we use them.
You talk about taking mixed lobbies into account instead of 4 mans, but the problem is that survivors can still 4 man. So, what are you suggesting? That 4 man swfs should just be even more of an "I win" button than they already are? That we should make the game miserable for killers because sometimes it feels bad to get slugged?
That's how you kill the game, by the way. If going up against a 3 or 4 man is just an automatic loss, killers will just drop the game in droves. I'm one of them. What you're talking about is just eliminating every strategy that even the best players in the world using S tier killers have to use against 4 man swfs.
The fact of the matter is that Phase 2 will either be as toothless as the anti-facecamp, or it will be absolutely busted to the point that survivors are back to ten minute queues. There is no inbetween.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969986#Comment_3969986
That is true, but it completely demolish solo q, stale game massively and makes 3 genning very viable, it's similiar problem to old eruption, while swf could call out downs to prevent the long lasting incapacitation, the solo q was completely demolished.. There shouldn't be that powerfull perks like DMS and Vigil. Both those are way too overtuned. DMS = 50s blocked gen = 50 % regression by blocking = 2.5 stack pain res. I'll tell you how most of my solo q games look. 4 people spawn and at best 2 people do gens, 1 is chased and someone is ratting somewhere. Now the survivor goes down quite quickly, get hooked, whole the gen progress is cut and now it's decision whether I have to go for save or not to block the gen. DMS needs to be 50s window upon hooking as it used to be, and still be insanely good perk. Vigil completely ruins killer builds around healing and exposed. If I run starstuck I don't understand why two survivors running Vigil should recover in 8s instead of 30s and why antiheal like GoP or Sloppy should be recovered so fast when they are already time based. Making it so it no longer stacks and is cut down to 30 % and removing exposed from that would me more than fair.
Why would it demolish Solo Q? It wouldn't if they paid attention. Let go of the gen when you see the killer hooking. And if that's somehow too difficult for you, let go of the gen when the killer picks up.
And your story about your solo q woes isn't really my problem. We shouldn't balance the game around bad players.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968876#Comment_3968876
My problem is that while surivors use quite variety of builds, eventhough you see Windows, Resilience, Lithe, Finesse and Vigil way more often still it's pretty wide perk choices. While killers have varieties of perks they can use to make the game feel more fun and not stale, they still use the same 5 perks. Literally 8 perks total you gonna see 95 % of killer games. And other perks getting huge buffs, making the variety of builds more interesting. And that's why killers should be incentived to run other builds than just Pain, corrupt, dms and one perk of choice. I'll leave some builds I ran recently:
- Save the best for last, rapid brutality, deadlock, thwack
- Rapid, Nowhere to hide, Nothing but misery, forever entwined
- Phantom fear. thwack, no way out, trail of torment
- unforseen, dark devotion, surge, claustrophobia
- blood favor, undying, dominance, thrill
Yeah, now run those builds against any decent 4 man and get tbagged at the gates 4 minutes after the match starts.
Most of the perks you've listed are garbage. Straight garbage. Nothing but Misery? So one survivor out of the four spends an extra 30 seconds per gen. That's an okay effect, until you remember it's a Hex that ALSO gives itself away by showing off its aura. I used to like STBFL, until it got nerfed into being near useless. Now M2's lose you stacks, but you don't gain them, and 8 stacks count as much as 6 old ones. Phantom Fear is one of the most useless perks they've ever released. Why have aura reading if the sound bubble is going to block it anyways?
Claustrophobia only ever gives you value if you're in an active chase when a gen gets done AND the survivor has to vault a window. I bet you get value out of that perk in 1/10 matches, and in the matches you do get value, it's just a single M1.
My favorite build to run is FttE, Lethal Pursuer, Furtive Chase, and Nemesis. Loads of fun… but you'll get absolutely stomped by survivors who actually want to win.
We don't use the same 5 perks over and over again because we WANT to, we use them because we want perks that will actually give value and help us win. I'll get value out of DMS every match. I'll get value out of Claustrophobia once in a blue moon. If Behavior wants us to use more perks, then make them actually worth using.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969992#Comment_3969992
That’s not snowballing. That’s just mass slugging or would fall under “slugging for the 4k”
Snowballing is having multiple survivors hooked at the same time to the point that you can bounce between hooks and keep the hooks flowing, but you’re leaving at least 1 person up to get saves so you can get more hooks. Slugging 2-3 survivors can lead to snowballing but is not snowballing. There’s lots of ways to start a snowball though without even slugging. That’s not a requirement to snowball or be classified as snowballing.
No, that's ping ponging. Popping back and forth between survivors getting off hook is ping pong tunneling.
Here's an example of a "snowball":
I am losing a match. I only have a couple of hooks, and only have two gens left. Three survivors are injured. I down one of them. Another injured survivor, emboldened by their seemingly unassailable lead, comes in for a flashlight save, but gets downed instead. I now have one survivor on hook, and one slugged.
One of the remaining survivors is injured, the other is healthy. The healthy survivor comes in for the save, but I guess where he's coming from, and he gets downed in a trade. Instead of chasing the survivor who just got off hook, I go back to my original slug (flashlight guy), and catch him getting picked up by the last injured teammate. They both end up downed.
The last remaining guy, my original hook, gets someone up but gets downed in the process. I chase this new final survivor, down them, and win the game. The survivors abandon, I hook the bots, then get hate mail in the EGC.
That's a snowball. A series of events that turns a small thing (downing a survivor in chase) into a big thing (all four survivors downed.) Kind of like a cartoon snowball rolling down a hill, getting bigger as it goes along. Hence the name. A series of mistakes by the survivors and a couple of good reads on my part won me the game.
It's also why people say that Trapper is a snowball killer. Because a game can go from just having one person on hook to a desperate situation very quickly if one or two survivors step in traps at the worst possible time. (Which is why his purple stone is also his best addon. It adds lethality to his power.) Trapper is NOT a killer that ping pongs well. He lacks the mobility and chase lethality to ping pong between survivors and keep heavy pressure.
The idea that survivors should just get zero punishment for making so many mistakes in a row, and that I should get no reward for playing well in crunch time is insulting. It should be insulting to survivors. I know I wouldn't want to be handheld to the point that several colossal mess-ups in a row had next to zero consequences. If there are zero comeback mechanics, then killers may as well tab out the moment they have one bad chase.
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@PlotTwister said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970039#Comment_3970039
Once there is only one survivor up any survivors that are currently downed get this effect until they are either hooked or go into the injured state through any means.
So snowballing for the win would be impossible. Do you realize how many mistakes in a row survivors have to make to get slugged? And you would make them suffer no consequences for a series of bad mistakes, while removing the only avenue left to killers after they make a mistake. The last survivor will be able to get one of the other survivors up for free, and they will be able to use their free endurance to get the others up, and next thing you know it's a full reset. It's just unnecessary hand-holding. If you're getting 4 slugged, you deserve to lose.
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Deleted
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
No it shouldn't deactivate when healed. If you barely get healed in time but the killer is still going back to hook for you that is still tunneling.
If your issue with OTR is using it aggressively to bodyblock for other survivors, I agree that's annoying and something that could be addressed, but having it deactivate when healed wouldn't be the best solution for that. You don't need to get healed to make that strategy effective.
Yes, everyone knows that a survivor is only NOT tunneled when they have a chance to do a full gen, get healed, and start clicking the killer from the strongest tile on the map.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969708#Comment_3969708
swf is probably the hardest thing to balance in this game, because nerfing them would nerf soloQ twice as hard as u mentioned and also the whole idea of basekit kindreded is not exactly need anymore, if the killer is near within the kindred range u will get anti camp no?
invisble walls and hitboxes within certain holes have been on the rise for no reason, its actually becoming a major annoyance when you play deathslinger or any killer that relies on those smoll interactions
and i agree im very sure spirit is bugged, i been playing her a lot lately and beside the fact that survivors go mute sometimes, scratch marks also tend to dissapear even if the survivor is still running (can track them from grass )
Oh, it would be very easy to do. Give survivors in groups a stackable repair/healing/totem/exit gate speed penalty. So a two-stack would have (for example) a 20% slowdown to their action speed, while their solo q teammates would be at normal speed. Meanwhile, a 4 man would all be playing at (again, for example) a 40% repair/healing/totem/exit gate speed penalty.
I want to stress that the numbers I gave were for illustrative purposes only to make it easy to understand. They would probably be smaller if such a system were put in place.
The point is, it would slow down swfs. The more powerful the swf, the more powerful the slowdown, while any solo queues would be unaffected.
But survivors would cry that they're being "punished for playing with their fwiends!" so anything that actually nerfs swfs will never be implemented.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
this is one of those things that once it happens, the concerns will seem overblown in hindsight.
should humanity be held back by 1% of the population who are silly geese?
nobody is more qualified than me to speak on this subject as I run Invocation:Treacherous Crows. I'm sick and tired of people loading in and crash out and rage by seeing me do an invocation that they start working with the killer and throw it all at 5 gens.
id rather they leave in the pre game lobby. us survivors can afford to cherry picked our lobbies I think a lot of us are tired of crapshoot matches. if somebody would leave over a perk, then I didn't want to play with them anyways.
Gasp! People don't want to play with someone who spends two minutes only to play the entire game with one health state? All for extremely situational aura reading?
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@VolantConch1719 said:
I personally can't wait to never play Survivor again because I run "lore-accurate" builds that usually wind up being pretty bad. I've been here long enough to know how bad the community is: they WILL dodge once they see my Taurie with Treacherous Crows, even though I'm probably never actually going to use it unless we're already winning.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969904#Comment_3969904
They've already confirmed on two separate occasions that they're going to do it: once at PAX and again during the recent AMA.
It'll be reverted. We can't have nice things in this community.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969784#Comment_3969784
Regardless of how the game is played, that's extremely early for a steamroll to happen. It's not a rare thing either, which is concerning since it is when Survivors are strongest like you said. I'm not necessarily saying there should be infinite covers for bad plays, but there really should be something that prevents that scenario from happening as frequently or as easily as it does.
So what comeback mechanic should we put in place when killers struggle early?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969499#Comment_3969499
No. But nobody needs to snowball to this point, lol.
Do… do you not know what snowballing is?
It's when you clutch a game that you were otherwise going to lose by slugging all four survivors at the same time. It's a last ditch attempt to saving a game when gens have been flying all match, but they left themselves injured and out of position.
There's no such thing as a "kind of" snowball. You either get the snowball and win the game, or you don't, they reset, and you lose.
If you take away the ability to snowball, the killer might as well just walk themselves into a corner and surf their phone if they ever have a bad chase or make a bad read. It'll be impossible to come back, so there's really no point in trying. Finish your gens and leave.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969489#Comment_3969489
That's no correct again. D-strike lasts for 60s if survivor refuses to progress game, which favors killer more than him and also you can eat d-strike and hook him within 60s anyway. This is not valid argument.
And survivors can still progress the game on another gen. See? Nobody is a victim here.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969488#Comment_3969488
If I'm not mistaken, GE is 40s and DMS is 50s. Surely Friends can cause interuption, but it's already commonly used perk so I'm not sure why it would make any difference.
Because instead of automatically hitting one gen with DMS due to Pain Res, I'd be hitting two. One would get interrupted with Pain Res, the other with FttE. Also, Grim Embrace procs DMS. So using GE and DMS together, with your proposed rework, would mean that all gens being worked when GE procs would get hit by DMS. You could block 3 or 4 gens with every hook. If that sounds alright with you, then let's make that change. If not, leave DMS how it is.
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@HexPectoPatronum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968917#Comment_3968917
There are only two legit reasons that make you slug the 3rd survivor as killer to find the 4th and these are: 1.) You're doing a quest that requires a 4k or 2.) You're doing the adept achievement of a specific killer. In all other scenarios you don't need the "physical 4k", because hatch escape is like a 4k. The hatch mechanic is 100 % based on RNG unless someone used an offering.
So, slugging the 3rd survivor and then searching for the 4th in general is pathetic and toxic, except the 4th survivor is close and it's obvious for everyone where they are (because of grunts of pain, pools of blood, scratch marks, aura reading etc.). But if you do so, you're not better than these survivors you have to push out.
Funny. I don't get noise spammed and tbagged when I slug for the 4k. I don't have survivors saying "ez baby killer" in the EGC when I 4k. Since survivors by and large treat hatch like they "beat" me, despite getting the pity escape at 3 gens, I don't want them to get hatch. If they weren't so toxic about it, I'd probably not care. But since the vast majority of survivors are physically incapable of good sportsmanship, I slug for the 4k.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969486#Comment_3969486
If the matchmaking is that loose, why would they lose 200 matches in a row? Surely on plenty of occasions, they'd be matched with newbies to stomp?
Besides, it's not like this isn't a common occurrence. Any time an overpowered tool gets added in, people use it to inflate their winrate, then it gets balanced, and they lose their toy and have to tumble back down the MMR ladder. It's nothing folks can't handle.
Also…
People are complaining NOW about 2-3 minute killer queues. Imagine if every survivor had to wait 15 minutes to get into a match. 20 minutes.
The alternative is bleeding away more survivor players and making those killer queues go up to 15+ minutes. Some adjustment is needed.
"If the matchmaking is that loose, why would they lose 200 matches in a row? Surely on plenty of occasions, they'd be matched with newbies to stomp?"
I'm sorry, but do you think occasionally winning matches against obviously bad players while losing the vast majority of the time is fun?
And it's not the same as a new toy. The difference between the game now and forced 12 hooking is a lot wider than Made For This.
We're not bleeding survivor players, though. Killer queues only ever get bad during events or new releases. Right now, I'm back to short queues and even had x1.5 BP bonus at like 8 pm last night.
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@angrychuck said:
The feature hasn't been retired it's just currently in a very buggy state. You should notice in some matches the survivors all spawn within arm's reach of each other and sometimes a random survivor is one the complete opposite side of the map.
Behavior released a new feature that barely works half the time due to endless bugs? Say it isn't so!
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969497#Comment_3969497
Uh, alright, slightly aggressive for no reason.
BHVR pushed NFT's, straight-up marketed them using official accounts, when Pinhead was added. This was, uh, not a popular choice and they were absolutely lambasted for it. I know we've never seen @Orion since, which is sad.
They also told people that they'd be getting 60 FPS onto Consoles, which never materialized. Huge false advertising moment right there, and both are worse than what happened to SM.
It isn't like this thing with SM hasn't happened before.
That's different than selling a product and then intentionally breaking it so I don't want to use it. Imagine I sold you an Iphone, then after you gave me your money, I spiked it on the ground. It's still TECHNICALLY usable, but 90% of the screen is blank. Then, I promised to get you an entirely different phone than the one you paid for at some undefined later date, then kept putting it off because I couldn't decide which crappy phone to give you.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969415#Comment_3969415
You can make it possible for Survivors to recover fully from the Dying State if at least 3 Survivors are in the Dying State. I think slugging one person can happen and is fine and regular gameplay. Two can happen as well, if they make a mistake (e.g. unhooking against a Bubba) or the Killer is running Infectious Fright.
But once you reach 3 Survivors in the Dying state, we are at the point beyond the Killer slugging for a bit of pressure or to avoid a Flashlight Save.
So you would make snowballing impossible.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969491#Comment_3969491
Weren't here for the NFT debacle?
Before my time, I guess. All I know is that I paid money for a character, and more for cosmetics. And they intentionally gutted that character to make me not want to play her while they take their sweet time doing nothing for 8 months, pump out a couple of crappy MS Paint pictures, go BACK to the drawing board because their ideas are so bad, then delay the planned rework date to TWO YEARS after she got gutted. Yeah, that's messed up. And if you don't think it's messed up, I hope it happens to your favorite killer next.
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Let me get this straight. They essentially deleted a character that people paid good money for because they didn't want people to play her while they worked on the rework… and they're delaying it to AT LEAST 2026?
They either need to buff her back to her 2.0 version or issue refunds for the character and all cosmetics purchased. This is absolutely ridiculous, and might be the most shady thing Behavior has ever done.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968876#Comment_3968876
It's way too strong perk. It's guaranteed to trigger and massively help holding three gen. Pretty much per 5 hooks you are able to hold objective hostage for 250s, which is insane. It can stay 50s, but must be reverted back to on hooking timer. I don't run this perk because how broken it is. As a killer main I would rage if there is perk that makes me unable to hook someone for 50s, so it's unfair to exist. If you ask me what perk to bring as killer every game to have highest chance to win, I'll always say DMS.
Do you remember about you saying something about unfun perks in different section? This one belongs into this category.
There is a perk that makes someone unhookable for 60s. It's called Decisive Strike.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968908#Comment_3968908
FttE? It used to block multiple gens for 30s, but started as soon as someone was hooked. So overall it was insanely overtuned buff, something similiar to Boil Over. Perks like these shouldn't be in the game. Grim 4 stacks are 40s, MS is 20s, no way why perk that can trigger up to 11x per game in full strenght should be 50s.
I was hoping you'd ask. Okay, with Friends to the End, if you hook the obsession, then another random survivor screams and becomes the Obsession. Then, we'll have Pain Res equipped, of course, so the most progressed gen will explode and any survivors working it will scream.
That means that not only can I get procs off of Pain Res to block the gen for a full minute, but I can also get a random survivor to scream and block their gen for a full minute, too. Oh, and that means that it'll be one random gen being worked with EVERY hook, not just first hooks like Pain Res. Then when you add in my fourth perk, Grim Embrace, that means that I can block literally every gen on the map that was being worked for a full minute when GE procs.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968845#Comment_3968845
The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches
It does though.
When you have a "strategy" that is so hands-down completely, no-contest more effective than everything else, people overly rely on it. That's why people like me complain about "tunneling at 5 gens" because it's taking something that really should be a comeback mechanic, and basing the entire match around it.
People "feel they need to tunnel" because of exactly this crutch. They tunnel, completely destroy survivors who are at their skill level, and boost their MMR to a point where anything else that would be required of them is too much. They can't find survivors quickly, can't chase efficiently, can't read the loops, can't identify which pallets are playable, can't manage their kit well. And they are so, absolutely convinced that they need 4 slowdowns, that they are even failing the meta game by not bringing the perks or addons that would help them in those situations.
And, it appears we agree on that, because:
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their actual MMR bracket.
This whole strategy is a crutch, covering up people's innate inefficiencies with the core game mechanics. And instead of looking at those and learning, or even admitting that they could have room to improve, they are going to use every buff, advantage, or new perk/ability to tunnel even more. When that doesn't work, they scream for regression, because, again, it can't be them being inefficient, the only answer is that the game is somehow tuned against them. But it's not. Demonstrably. The Devs specifically set out to make the game lean toward the killer, and every patch, every data point confirms that they've succeeded at this.
Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
I really don't care honestly. The "skill floor" is largely a subjective thing, and I feel like your entire fixation with it is disingenuous.
You started by creating a weirdly inflated and wildly biased list, in an attempt to show "look, survivors got more (quantity) than killers" and implied it was unfair. When I posted to show that, no killers actually got a decent amount more, you're shifting the goal post again here.
Here's what really matters: 3 years of the devs making active changes to increase kill rates. Not because 60% is "fair" or "perfectly balanced", but because "they want the killer role to be more lethal". And all of those changes to the game have combined to do exactly that.
The game has been made easier for killers, by quality (and possibly by quantity too, but that's really beside the point). So the skill floor, overall, has gone down for killers, and gone up for survivors… Which is one of the main reasons why killers are being mismatched with survivor teams who are actually more skilled than the killer.
"Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their actual MMR bracket."
You do realize that this would singlehandedly kill the game, right? Do you know how many games you would need to lose in a row to "settle into their actual MMR bracket?" Dozens. Maybe Hundreds. Do you honestly think that anyone is going to sit down and lose 200 games in a row? Really? That's weeks or even months of just straight losing. If that's the route Behavior takes, people will just quit in droves and the game will die. Killers will quit because the game is a miserable slog where you just get destroyed every match and then tbagged at the gates, and then survivors will quit when queue times start hitting the double digits during peak hours and even longer during off hours. People are complaining NOW about 2-3 minute killer queues. Imagine if every survivor had to wait 15 minutes to get into a match. 20 minutes.
No, if BHVR actually wants to get people to their "non-tunnel" MMR, then they should reset everyone's MMR back to 0, then let the chips fall where they may.
EDIT: Not only that, but with how loose matchmaking is in this game, MMR might as well not even exist. Just saying. I'll backfill into four baby survivors one match, then a comp team the next. MMR is basically worthless.
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@gingerGeorge12 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968545#Comment_3968545
“Oh, so if I get off hook, I can just bodyblock for free with no possible consequences.”
You can already do that now for free especially with OTR.“The killer either downs me, giving me basekit DS until I get back up with basekit Unbreakable, meaning the killer gains zero pressure and loses a bunch of distance against the unhooker”
In the current game survivors can take the hit from base-kit BT then if the killer decides to go for that survivor they waste time trying to get that survivor also if the survivor has DS then they waste more time but with my version the killer gets the down wasting no time at all for chasing and possibly can go back to the downed survivor because they can’t crawl away
So really the killer hasn’t wasted any time because that survivor can’t do anything when downed and it takes about 30 seconds for that survivor to pick themselves up without a teammate so it gives the killer time to down the other survivor who unhooked.
“Or the killer tries to wait out my 30 seconds of basekit DS while I run to the strongest tile on the map.”
No good killer will wait because you can’t wait because of that:
- “If the survivor is downed by the killer during this 30-second window, the effect is retained until one of the following happens:
- The survivor uses the stun against the killer (4-second stun).
- The survivor is picked up by a teammate or picks themselves up.”
“Bonus points for bringing OTR, which will let me body block two hits for free.”
You can do that in the current game with DS.
“You do realize that bodyblocking with your basekit invulnerability would become even more prevalent than it is now, due to there being literally zero risk associated, right?”
There is risk because now the survivor is downed in the first hit without OTR and they can’t crawl away so good killers will remember where they downed that survivor and go for them if they pick themselves up and even if the survivor doesn’t then the killer has one guy on the ground for free doing nothing and the killer could go for others and get the benefits of the new
Killer Hook-Based Progression Incentives."You can already do that now for free especially with OTR."
No, you can ONLY do that with OTR. If you try it without OTR, I just stand there staring at you for a few seconds before getting the down. And if you have to bring OTR, it's not free. It costs a perk slot. So, no, you can't already body block for "free." You're either risking getting tunneled, or sacrificing a perk slot for OTR/DS.
"In the current game survivors can take the hit from base-kit BT then if the killer decides to go for that survivor they waste time trying to get that survivor also if the survivor has DS then they waste more time but with my version the killer gets the down wasting no time at all for chasing and possibly can go back to the downed survivor because they can’t crawl away"
If I'm looking to tunnel… I'm not hitting base-kit BT. I'm counting to 10. Then I get someone on hook in like 15 seconds instead of the 45 it'll take to down the first survivor (who gets up for free and has free DS, so no pressure gained there) and chase the second one when they have a huge shift+w lead on me thanks to the body block.
"So really the killer hasn’t wasted any time because that survivor can’t do anything when downed and it takes about 30 seconds for that survivor to pick themselves up without a teammate so it gives the killer time to down the other survivor who unhooked."
Bro, unless you're in a massive deadzone, and I mean MASSIVE, it's going to take more than 30 seconds to down a healthy survivor who got to shift w while you were being body blocked. Even if you catch up and somehow get the first hit free, odds are really good that they'll make it to shack or main off of the post-hit speed boost. Unless you're using an S tier killer, and I don't think that acting like Blight will be the only killer affected by this is kind of disingenuous.
"No good killer will wait because you can’t wait because of that:
- “If the survivor is downed by the killer during this 30-second window, the effect is retained until one of the following happens:
- The survivor uses the stun against the killer (4-second stun).
- The survivor is picked up by a teammate or picks themselves up.”
Oh, so it's even more busted than I thought. It's infinite invulnerability. What a great design.
"You can do that in the current game with DS."
And to do that, you'd need to use two perk slots. Now, you'd only need one. Using up two perk slots isn't "free."
"There is risk because now the survivor is downed in the first hit without OTR and they can’t crawl away so good killers will remember where they downed that survivor and go for them if they pick themselves up and even if the survivor doesn’t then the killer has one guy on the ground for free doing nothing and the killer could go for others and get the benefits of the new
Killer Hook-Based Progression Incentives."Which isn't a risk at all considering they get up for free and have infinite DS. The slug is absolutely meaningless. It generates absolutely zero pressure.
And your "Killer Hook-Based Progression Incentives" will do absolutely nothing compared to getting someone out of the game. Oooooh, two gens lose thirty charges. That doesn't even come close to the power of the 4v1. How about "All gens lose 30 charges and are then blocked for 60 seconds. All survivor auras are revealed for the duration." Then it might begin coming close to the gen efficiency difference that getting someone out of the game brings.
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Why? The purpose of the perk is to get early pressure. That's why it exists. The killer is giving up an entire perk slot to gain that advantage.
Tell you what, let's make it so Built to Last doesn't work on toolboxes. Or you're not allowed to bring Vigil if you equip an exhaustion perk. Since we're just getting rid of things that work well together, might as well go all out, right?
Half of the fun of the game is finding perks and builds that compliment your playstyle and killer power. If you just take away everything that works well together, then don't complain when you get 4 gen regression perks.
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Lol no. If I have to wait 2 minutes or push survivors out, you can wait for me to find the last survivor.
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@Amanova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968876#Comment_3968876
It should at least work instantly as before when you hook someone, because killers can just keep it infinitely and then push someone from a gen and it will still have those 50s block, sounds unfair and annoying
Then let it go back to blocking multiple gens. I'll bring FttE and Pain Res, and block 2 gens for a minute. Sound good?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968875#Comment_3968875
Well, I don't think that's true.
For starters, how long it takes to start new chases is entirely dependant on the player's performance, not the killer's balance. There's a small degree to which some killers are a little slower because they don't have mobility tools, but even someone like Trapper can still get into a chase reasonably quickly if the player actually knows exactly where they're going and doesn't have to waste time looking for survivors.
Getting the down is definitely an area where killer strength matters, but you have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for the worst five-ish killers before you get to a point where a skilled player can't get reasonably quick downs on most maps. Sure, your Trappers and Skulls Merchant playing on Badham are going to struggle hard but the average killer and average map are a lot more fair than they used to be.
That just indicates a few problem killers and a few problem maps more than it does the basic fundamental skill expression of the game not being functional. For every stumble they might've made on the way, BHVR's been doing a good job ensuring almost every killer can engage with the game on the basic level.Some killers have to work harder than others, and some killers might favour different builds to others (I've been playing Sadako who I think is really quite weak, and I've been swearing by Dissolution to help her way more than I expected), but it's completely doable.
Oh, please. Billy can get all the way across the map in under 5 seconds. A normal M1 takes more like 20. That's 15 extra seconds of gen progress, multiplied by 3 survivors. That's half a gen of progress. Killers with mobility can pressure the entire map, instead of one small part of it, and they can do it quickly. If you leave your small area of control as a killer without mobility, then you're just throwing the game. Even if I know that there's a survivor on the gen over there, the problem is that I'm going to waste a ton of time getting there.
Not only that, but strong killers can "waste" perk slots on info. Weaker killers can't. They need multiple slowdowns and Bamboozle is almost required, otherwise they're going to either lose every shack/main building chase, or waste a ridiculous amount of time at any tile stronger than a jungle gym. And don't even let me get started on exhaustion perks and the amount of time they waste for weaker killers, or just how powerful pre-drop + shift w is against them.
Good survivors who know what they're doing can run weaker killers for a LOT longer than they're going to run your Nurses, Blights, or Spirits.
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Oh, so destroy its synergy with any other perk and reduce its effectiveness so that it goes back into the dumpster bin with CoB and Overcharge.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968866#Comment_3968866
I'm asking because tunnelling is very decidedly not a macro strategy, and I didn't want to launch into a whole point about it without checking that is what you meant.
Assuming that tunnelling here is any variation on "chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked", of course. Some people do have much broader definitions that can cover some kinda-sorta macro oriented things.
Chasing someone off hook to capitalise on them being injured and out of position, especially with the goal of getting them dead as soon as possible, is extremely focused on just what's right in front of you. It has a long term goal, but it isn't interested in engaging with the game's wider macro until you've tilted it massively in your favour.
The macro skill expression of this game for killer is very broad and nuanced so I can't summarise all of it in one message, but the most basic, fundamental element of it is pressuring multiple survivors at once to slow down generator repair. One on hook, one in chase, one going to save, and so on. Tunnelling is the opposite of that- leaving everyone except the person you're chasing unoccupied with only a brief break for them to be unhooked.
The whole point of doing it is to get someone out ASAP, not to juggle the survivor team or create deadzones or keep up any form of pressure. You only engage with the macro after tunnelling someone out in most cases.
Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly. Tunnelling is just a balance problem, not a macro strategy.
The problem is, so many killers in the game really can't engage the game on that level of macro. They take too long to start new chases, and take too long to get another down. So instead of rotating survivors out in a steady stream of pressure, what you actually get is long stretches of time where 3 survivors are pressuring gens while the killer is only pressuring one survivor.
Breaking off chases can help, but with current heal speeds Hit and Run isn't really viable. Survivors are healed 10-20 seconds after you drop chase. You never really get ahead or stall the game. You spent 20 seconds getting the hit, and it was healed in 10.
For instance, I can play Spirit with a fun, meme-ish FttE, Furtive Chase, Nemesis, Lethal Pursuer build and generally do well and win more than I lose. Spirit can get hits and downs fast enough to support that build. If I tried that build on, say, Knight? I'd get absolutely destroyed more often than not.
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Because Head On is a very frustrating perk to play against? And I thought we were eliminating frustrating things, not making them more powerful.
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First main was Knight. I loved the pincer attacks and 3 genning lol. Now, they've completely gutted that playstyle into unusability.
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The only hexes worth cleansing are Devour and Blood Favor. Anything else is just Pentimento bait.