Stibfa
Stibfa
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@Fraankun said:
I think the power its ok as it is, no need to rework it.
I'd rather want him to get fatigue like nurse when he hits no survivor after he uses its power.
Having him be able to catch up to any survivor after a vault or a pallet stun and free hits after a power miss its just unfair.
Unfair as well as he is able to go through hooks and gens with power and start the chase right away.
As far as i know ghoul is a 4.6 killer with the ability to leap from one side of the map to the other, its power literally can't miss since it gave a prompt that makes the survivor go in deep wound and its not avoidable, has no fatigue at any point, gets rewarded when survivor dodge its power, close any distance the survivor makes and get a free hit after it.
So you want to make ghoul a worse legion? And kill all his skill expression and skill ceilling
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@smappdooda said:
Since this character came out, my friends and I don't really want to play the game anymore. This character (and the way people play them) is insufferable. Why you ask?
- The window to infect is HILARIOUSLY long. No other killer has that long a cool down I can think of.
- The REACH to infect is laughably ridiculous (Don't believe me? Look at this clip and tell me how this is fair?)
https://medal.tv/games/dead-by-daylight/clips/kq7PsW5HxJ_fKNW3R?invite=cr-MSxJQnAsMjQ0OTc0NTM1)
- The fact they can cancel their power after one leap to down almost instantly is dumb. Didn't Pyramid head get a big ol nerf cuz of that? That cool down needs to be more punishing.
- This is more a comment on the people who play Ghoul. 9 out of ten ghoul players come back to the unhook almost immediately because his kit allows you to do so. It's getting tiresome.
If DC penalties weren't a thing, you would see a HUGE influx of it against this killer I guarantee. I haven't been this annoyed since OG Legion came out and I took a very long break after that. I'm not trying to garner sympathy, just highlight a problem character that needs to be "brought in line" with the other killers.
Ghoul has a non lethal power, his cooldown is short because he cant down using his power while pyramid head can, the grab range is still a bit silly i can agree with that, they should de couple the grab range and leap range. I think ghoul will be just fine if his grab was like 10 meters. They would have to compensate buff him after tho.
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Yeah no, survivor players abused this to see the killer over long wall loops. Very bad idea
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@Jspect said:
Free hits feel awful, you shouldn't have to accept you're getting hit without any skill from the other side.
Fundamentally, Ghoul's initial injury will always be easy. We can't fix that, but we can improve it.
In attempt to nerf the grab, the total range was nerfed by -2. It didnt effect Ghoul balance wise, and barely helped the issue. It just feels bad and became really annoying for the killer.
Firstly, we need to separate the environment range from the grab (injure) range.
Currently, both are 14 meters, 15 with handkerchief.The grab range should be nerfed to 8 - 10.
The enviroment range should be buffed back to 16.
Additionally, handkerchief should be reverted to 2 meters.
With these changes I can see Ghoul being a lot more tolerable as survivor, and fluid as killer.
Also, the CD after breaking a pallet is a tad too long. It was 2.5 initially, 5 seconds now.
3.5 - 4 seconds would be fair.Imo he needs 2 other ones aswell,
- Enrage vault should be slower, it should be a tool for god pallets/save pallets like wesker vault.
- Minimum leap distance needs to be 3 meters instead of 5, this makes the power feel clunky on indoor maps and when you are trying to body block in loops.
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As a ghoul main myself that tries go for bodyblocks
I wouldnt be against any of your changes, i think 2 sec swipe fatigue is not really needed because you can already body block the pallet or window which is harder to do then the swipe. Other then that these are some healthy changes!
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@DigitalisObscura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932377#Comment_3932377
Like I said I can't say how easy it is post-PTB personally as I refuse to give them money for this killer, but I can say that literally every single Ghoul I have played since launch is getting off body blocks very consistently with almost none of them making mistakes at all - I cannot imagine it is difficult. Y'know like Hillbilly or Bubba where you can tell certain people have a lot of issues avoiding bumping into things or aiming it's obvious there's a learning curve.
The way that it works, it is literally impossible to make it "harder to hit" on mouse and keyboard. They nerfed the aim assist by 95% and there was no change in how quickly those hits were obtained.
Almost every ghoul is hitting mid loop blocks like this every game consistently? I highly doubt that. There is a difference between getting body blocked outside of a tile with 1 leap and doing a pallet body block mid loop. Also there are defo things the devs can do to make the m2 harder to hit. For a starter make the lock on range less then the leap range
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@Falcao said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932373#Comment_3932373
not true. are the other killers dead? no, you just want to leave something unbalanced, as always.
Other killers can down with Their power thats why they get slowed... ghoul cant
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931924#Comment_3931924
The enraged vault is actually not that bad anymore. At least against me survivors are often able to make it around the loop again before I can hit them after I vault. But I can see why people would want it nerfed just slightly more. Right now the vault time is 1.5 seconds, 1.7 or 1.8 seconds would probably be the sweet spot.
I fear there is nothing they can do about the hitscan though. I don't think kaneki would work without it.
Just hold on a bit longer, once Springtrap is released Kaneki will probably be played much less. I just hope Springtrap is very fun to go against.
The issue with enrage vault is that it basically makes a pallet a 50/50 which ghoul does not need on top of his current strenghts.
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@drag27 said:
wanted to play him alot but after 3 nerfs in like what? the 1st 2-3 weeks of his release I dont think ill be playing him much if at all
The only thing the nerfs did was make his m2 harder(which is still easy to hit) on top of killing a very boring playstyle where you just force a pallet with brutal and leap behind a survivor between loops. Ghoul is still a very strong A tier killer.
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@DigitalisObscura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931764#Comment_3931764
Yeah. I can agree with that. Theoretically, I am fine with an extremely high mobility power that that's great for positioning but not much else. So the main pain points to me are when his power is doing a lot more on top of that, and arguably the strongest parts of his ability are the free initial injure and the free hits after enraged vault modifier and canceling. If they got rid of the initial injure and the enraged vault modifier and playing against him was ONLY around body blocking and avoiding the body blocks like OP showed it that would probably feel a lot more engaging.
But that's a big if, because I can't see them peeling away that much of his power without immense blowback. And I'd understand, too. It'd be Ash all over again. I think they just made a huge mistake designing and releasing him this way, and it's enough that I've avoided playing much survivor since his release.
Considering how hard it actually is to pull a body Block of on top of it not working on some loops removing his m2 would be too big of a nerf. Im not against making the m2 harder to hit, (honestly im on controller and its still really easy) but removing it entirely would not be a healty change imo. Hell nerf the aim assist and the enrage vault! Just make minimum leap distance 3 meters.
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The issue with enrage vault is that it basically makes a pallet a 50/50 which ghoul does not need on top of his current strenghts.
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@Falcao said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931809#Comment_3931809
Considering he just jumps and chases, jumps and chases without slowing down at all, I think it's unfair. Imagine a killer with free hits that apply effects and combine that with mobility around the map - that's Kaneki. Give him a slow after casting an ability/canceling a power and we'll get something more fair.
Giving him a slow after a leap would make him god awfull its a non lethal attack, and would in turn kill his skill ceilling which is body blocking
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@terumisan said:
he doesn't have the kidnap tech anymore also can we just leave kaneki alone?
I litterally did it yesterday bro... and enrage vault is still to easy compared to the reward it gives. Invest in body blocking instead
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Still insufferable.
Hit scan attacks were a very bad idea, auto aim (the sticky cursor combined with the slightly increased hit detection for survivors) also feels unfair (doubly so if he injures you through a solid object), a free injury is always going to be extremely frustrating to play against and enraged vaults are still practically old scamper.
In short, a completely unfun experience to play against, but who cares about that when the killer is fun to use, right?
What a terrible "us vs them" slop comment, yeah im sure bhvr doesnt care as long as hes fun to play, its not like they nerfed him 2 times in 3 weeks or anything.....
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@kit_mason said:
He's still far too strong.
He needs "kidnap tech" - the mini-stun and the increased vault speed when enraged - entirely removing. He also needs an increase recovery time from him cancelling out of kagune leap without grabbing a survivor, to make whipping directly behind a survivor worse. This should put him in the position he's meant to be in - an easy injure, a difficult down, unless he can use his power well by landing an effective bodyblock on key material.
This makes him more expressive, makes vsing him more interactive, and makes it easier and clearer to punish him with material. With these nerfs I'm even fine removing the "pallet break = lost charges" interaction, since I think that was a strange alteration to his power anyway.
The issue i have with this is that adding another 0.5 seconds to his cancel wouldnt actually solve him leaping behind you in a deadzone, but in a loop this can be terrible.
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@Stibfa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931670#Comment_3931670
Im also on the sticks, the way im playing him right now is instead of breaking pallets try to body block them
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6JS1YK8AV0OG/1000025879.gif
Why are People downvoting a clip.........
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@Falcao said:
I think it needs to be nerfed again
thats fair. What part would you want to be nerfed?
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931766#Comment_3931766
I can agree with that, I do think the character could easily be kept in tact whilst making them fun to play against. It just needs time and care put into the changes, something I hope BHVR can do down the line.
Or rather, your opinions and love of the character make me believe there is a way to make you happy while those who play against him happy.Honestly as long as bhvr doesnt touch his cancel time or leap speed im im fine with anything, i wouldnt be against nerfing the m2 on top of the enrage vault a bit more if he gets compensation buffs
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I just dislike the vault speed and the first hit bs that can happen, and how quick they can get about the map.
His strenght should be compensated by having a weaker/ harder anti loop, ghoul does not need enrage vault this strong when he , like you said, already has insane mobility and and a free injure
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@Senaxu said:
The Ghoul is, in my view, still overtuned… not necessarily because of raw numbers, but because of how much pressure he generates with so little effort. His map mobility, chained aggression, and the ease with which he secures downs make him one of the most punishing killers to play against, especially when piloted competently.
Yes, he's fun to play → for the killer. But as several people have already pointed out, good killer design shouldn’t peak at 11/10 fun for one side while the other sits somewhere between a 1 and 2. That’s exactly where The Ghoul lands right now. The frustration from the survivor side is palpable, and that’s a clear sign something is off.
Compare him to Wesker… a killer who is strong, fair, and actually fun to face. Wesker rewards both skill and timing on both ends. Survivors feel like they have agency, and good plays on both sides feel earned. That’s healthy asymmetry. The Ghoul currently fails to deliver that experience.
He might not need deletion, but the current iteration does require deeper structural tuning… not just cooldown tweaks. Without that, we're stuck in a meta where one side is encouraged to leave, alt-tab, or write forum posts while waiting to get hooked.
I think the counterplay to ghoul is very clear once enrage vault gets nerfed, his mobility and free hit are very strong parts of his kit that (should) get balanced around having weaker downing /looping potental. Body blocks dont work on all loops and are hard to consistently pull off otherwise ghoul is m1 in loops(if enrage vault gets nerfed). You can actually loop a ghoul. ( Again if enrage vault gets nerfed). You should reset and force him to use his m2, doing this forces him a 8 second cooldown where you get time to run to a loop. Then force him to kick a pallet which gives you time to run to another loop.
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@DigitalisObscura said:
My main issue with him is that he has an auto-aim hit scan ranged attack that takes a health state and a half. The enraged vault and the timings and speed around his power are also too strong for how little is required to pull them off. I like comparing him to Wesker. They are both 4.6m/s killers who have high mobility powers and where their timings are different highlights why Ghoul isn'-t very fun to play against for me while Wesker generally is. All of these timings are sourced from their respective wiki pages.
Wesker takes 1.5s to charge his power, whereas Ghoul only takes 0.35s. I think this is fine considering Ghoul can't immediately injure you with it, though less than a third of the time is pretty extreme. Wesker and Ghoul both move at 3.68m/s while holding it up and travel at 14m/s after activation, though Wesker slows down to 2.76m/s in between his first and second bound whereas it doesn't seem Ghoul slows down at all. Wesker takes 1.5s after cancelling his power, whereas Ghoul is only 1s. The slower charge time already means he will take less time to cancel so it kind of double dips here. Wesker takes 1.5s to vault something, which I believe Ghoul does as well except while enraged which lowers it to like 0.9s if I applied the modifier correctly. After vaulting, Wesker enters a 1.5s cooldown. Ghoul's is only 1.25s for some reason. Overall, enraged Ghoul spends a little over 2 seconds to get over a pallet before he can swing where Wesker takes 3. So that's almost a whole 4 meters of distance which will equal a hit at most pallets, for an ability that is easier to aim and pull off which seems backwards to me.
Ghoul's cooldowns are also shorter outside of pallets. When they cancel their power after the first use or are out of tokens, Wesker has a 3 second cooldown while Ghoul's is only 2. The only piece they have in common here is after they get a hit they both have a 3 second cooldown, but that also seems pretty unfair to me considering the effort that goes into actually landing that hit. Additionally, Wesker's cooldown is increased to 5 seconds when he has to throw the survivor whereas Ghoul has no similar conditional downside. It doesn't really seem like bodyblocking midloop is particularly difficult, because every single Ghoul I have played against has been able to do it pretty consistently, and then when they do there really there's far less time to react than when another killer would do something similar. Like sure I guess it's harder than the grab attack and the enraged vault hits but like… that's a pretty low bar.
Personally, I don't think there is anything they could do to Ghoul's current power that would make it "acceptable" to me. I think it's an egregious design flaw to have it work the way that it does, which is made worse by the fact he requires a lot less from the killer player to be as effective than similar killers. None of his changes addressed the issues I had with him on PTB or release. I'm sure his kill rate has reduced slightly with the tweaks, but the experience of playing against him hasn't changed at all. All of the most frustrating aspects are still there the same as they were when he was launched.
I don't really have an opinion of playing as him anymore, since I only did so a few games on the PTB. His power seemed like a design mistake to me then, so I didn't buy him.
I dont really think its fair to just compare numbers to wesker when ghoul and wesker play a lot different, wesker can actually down using his power which is a lot easier to do then doing a body Block mid loop, except for maybe doing hug techs. You said you didnt actually play ghoul except ptb? Try landing a body Block mid loop, its a lot harder then you might think. About his enrage vault? Yeah its too strong, its way to easy to do compared to its strength and should be more like weskers vault.
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@Elan said:
Not another nerfs pls. If anything done to ghoul he deserves buffs at least.
- revert pallet break cooldown
- revert hindred from vault
- revert leap distance to 16m
- revert iri mask to revel mapwide, apart from lockers
- give him ability to down survivors with power if survivor is injured and no longer in deep wound
If enrage vault gets reverted to ptb numbers you could tweak his power, i wouldnt mind 16m leap distance, the pallet kick cooldown basically gave him real counterplay. hindred from vault could Maybe be reverted if the vault got nerfed. I didnt mind iri mask that mutch i could maybe see a buff, while i dissagree heavy on 5, the way this power can play loops is body blocking them, ghoul shouldnt be able to down
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@xGodSendDeath said:
Ghoul's not for me after his recent changes. The additional cooldowns for breaking a pallet make him a no go for me. My overall strategy is on forcing pallet breaks as fast as possible because I have a harder time playing around a lot of loops due to playing on joystick/controller. If I can't really catch up before getting to the next loop anyways I'll just stick to Clown or something
Im also on the sticks, the way im playing him right now is instead of breaking pallets try to body block them
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
delete ghoul.
but in all seriousness he is fine now. still annoying as ######### to go against. but to play he feels fine but still strong
but ur changes are good, a nice quality of life on minimum leap making him less map reliant is good
I feel like if enrage vault gets tuned down he will be a lot more fun to play against, ghouls main counterplay is forcing him to break the pallet, and use that time to run to another loop. The ghoul can try to body Block the pallet(or window) instead. If this doesnt work you can either stay in the loop or run to something else. The way enrage vault currently works is basically forcing a 50/50 on the survivor which i dont think an high mobility free injure killer needs. And instead should be a mix of m1 gameplay, vaulting over safe pallets/godpallets, bodyblocking.
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@Langweilig said:
Traper
- Traps spawn armed at pallets and windows.
- Smaller terror radius (24 or 28meters) to make locating the tarps more difficult.
- He can carry 4 traps.
- Rearming and setting up traps is faster.
- He can select one trap like xeno can with his tunnels and when he opens a locker that trap disappears and enters your inventory. This has a cooldown of x seconds.
Pig
- Rule set number two basekit - New version hides all box auras outside of a 16-24 meter radius while the trap is active, but increases the timer by 15-25 seconds.
- Razor wires now also apply‘s deep wounds if you miss a box skill check.
- Interlocking razor makes box, repair and healing skill checks silent when having a bear trap on the head. (Rework)
- When not being in a chase for longer than 15 seconds, the ambush charges 50% faster.
Doctor
- His illusions spawn outside of the survivors line of sight, after that they run directly to the closest survivor and chase them. They use the killer bot AI to chase survivors.
- The illusions have a 16 meter terror radius.
- His illusions disappear after they hit a survivor (they don‘t injure or down) or when the survivor they were chasing got downed.
- The illusions no longer disappear after a certain time.
Ghost face
- You don‘t lose your power by injuring survivors.
- QOL: Much improved leaning, so it is less frustrating and clunky.
- Gain haste while in power and not chasing someone.
Demogorgon
- His shred goes further the longer you hold the power button.
- Letting go of the power button activated his shred.
Needs an addon pass!
Pyrmid head
- His path stays active for longer (like 25 seconds).
- More of the path can be active at the same time.
- Obsidian goblet grants you undetectable in a 5 meter radius to your path. This effect lingers for 5 seconds.
- Survivors running through his path become oblivious and get hemorrhage for 15 seconds.
- Book lost memories makes all survivor status effects, except of hindered and haste, linger for 30 seconds.
Needs an addon pass!
Sadako
- Needs her mobility separated from condemned counterplay.
- TV auras removed to make jumpscares and outplays in chase possible.
- Needs buffs to her flicker.
- Can teleport to turned off TVs but doesn’t spread condemned when doing so.
Needs an addon pass!
Dredge
- Him being in a locker counts as searching a locker (for perks).
- Rework iri wooden plank or massively increase its duration.
- 5+ locks 🔒 reset after a generator gets done.
Alien
- Survivors aren‘t hindered while carrying a turret.
- Smaller hitbox for placing turrets (to make them easier to place)
- Compensation buffs (faster tunneling exit speed, …)
Chucky
- Silent window scamper returns.
- Can scamper under pallets without slice and dice, which takes 1.7 seconds (normal window vault speed).
Ghoul
- QOL: Reduce the minimum required distance for a leap to 3 meters, because he is very frustrating to play on indoor maps.
- Reduce mending time (6 seconds) when hit by his mark.
What do you think of these changes?
If you want to know why I want some of these changes, just ask.
I do like the ghoul changes because 5 meters min range can be annoying esp when youre trying to body block mid loop. Im not sure if the decrease mend time really does anything considering youre gonna chase the kagune marked survivor anyway. I would revert enrage vault speed back to ptb values instead, this is just way to easy to do compared to the reward you get right now.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925240#Comment_3925240
wow 10 seconds, 1.8 of which is at higher than normal speed or they deserve to die???
I hope BHVR understands what's unfair better than you then.
You dont think 10 seconds is enough to make it to a loop? That says more about your pathing then balance of the game
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925225#Comment_3925225
No, it isnt enough. The SoloQ I see and the Survivors I play against as Kaneki, they don't stand a fair chance against him.
You get 10 seconds on top of a onhit speed boost if you cant make it to a loop in that time you deserve to go down. Nerfing enrage vault would give him more counterplay like i said
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@Emeal said:
I think the point you are trying to make is that when Kaneki does the vault via Kanguroo Leap his vault is faster than any other Killer's by at least around .25 seconds ( think its 1.5 and normal Killers is 1.7, Legion in Frenzy is 0.9.) which yes does make him much much much more deadly in a loop. You want to make him less deadly in a loop ye?
The problem I see is that this Killer has more mobility than Dredge, I bet Kaneki can beat him in a race.
So most of the time, I never make it to the Loop. So why would that change ever matter? Sure the nerfs BHVR gave do a little but it actually doesn't do enough.What I would like to see is the Removal of Hindered and removal of the Stun when Kaneki takes his first bite.
I think that would make YOUR changes much more relevant, because I see no reason that the MOST MOBILE KILLER IN OUR HISTORY needs to apply Hindered and Stun effects to Survivors. Then when people can actually make it to the Loop, then maybe then we can have a discussion about the vault speed, but right now its just an unnecessary change to what I mostly see happening in matches.I mean honestly Kaneki is taking a huge bite out of BHVR right now, because THEY created all these new Dead Zones and those are perfect for MEGA Mobility Killers such as Kaneki, Blight and Nurse.
My issue is that the enrage vault is too easy for too much reward, kaneki has anti loop. Its body blocking mid loop which takes a lot skill to do, which is fair considering his mobility and free injure, like you said. The grab stun is fine, the attack cooldown is longer then a normal m1 and you also get the on hit speed boost, this also puts his power on cooldown, you get more then enough time to make it to a tile. The counterplay to kaneki is supposed to be that you make him break the pallet to give you time to run to another tile, which doesnt work now because of how fast enrage vault is.
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@Zakon05 said:
I agree, the pallet break did nothing to reign in how frustrating he is to play against and just made him feel worse to play as. Ideally I'd like to not have to drop pallets against him, since greeding and mindgaming at upright pallets is a lot of fun.
I would much rather have seen them slow him down slightly during his power cancel cooldown and reduce his movement speed a tiny bit.
I agree, as someone who is getting decent at body blocks in loops they shouldve nerfed enrage vault instead. the issue is that the vault is just a skill less free hit (like scamper) ken otherwise is fine rn. Except his terrible collision, my leaps are getting canceled by rocks behind me.
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@Twiggsy said:
Revert losing power on pallet break instead nerf Grab Vault speed, Leap cancel cooldown to 5 seconds
Wow you just gave trapper and skullmerchant company in D tier nice job!•
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922427#Comment_3922427
To be fair, now that the ghoul loses two of his tokens when breaking a pallet, the likelihood of being next to a pallet or window after Ghoul uses his leap is noticeably higher, so indirectly this issue has been addressed. Question is just if it's enough, but at the moment I feel like it is.
And if not, BHVR can still nerf the cooldown after canceling kagune leap a bit.
IIncreasing The cancel cooldown wouldnt actually help in the situations People find annoying. Getting 0.5 seconds extra time in a deadzone does nothing. Getting 0.5 seconds extra in a loop is an insane gutting of kanekis skill expression which is body blocking mid loop. This is the last thing they should touch
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@Reinami said:
I think the last change done to make it be like 2 tokens is a bit heavy handed. I like to have a playstyle where, if i break a pallet, i drop chase and go after someone else if i can, and this actively punishes me from doing that. When it was set to 1 stack, it was enough where it made you think about chasing again or not, but at 2 stacks, your whole power is on cooldown. Which kind of defeats the purpose.
The other change around the vault speed is fine, makes it more similar to wesker, but i think this other change went too far. It just takes away the smooth "feel" of the killer i guess.
As a body Block ghoul player the nerfs are fine. I rather the cd stayed at 2.5 but have a slower enrage vault, but honestly ill take this over increasing his cancel cooldown anyday. Or worse some People wanted him to always slide or that he couldnt cancel, which would kill his skill ceilling.
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Wow the amount of People defending this horrible loophole of dodging the dc penalty and ruining the game for 4 other People is insane. Youre not entitled to ruin the game for 4 other People because youre not having fun. Instead of "looking at the why" why not fix this horrible plague on the game first and actually have fair matches. A lot of these dbd players are just Burned out from playing the game and need to take a break... instead of getting mad for every little thing that happens to them. "You cant force People to play a game they dont like." we can start by actually punishing these kind of People, not every game is gonna be fun. Thats any pvp game ever... if you only want fun games where everything goes good for you dont play a pvp game.
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@darkshadows8326 said:
I'm a Ghoul main, I love playing as Ghoul because it is an easy step into fast pace mobility, unlike the other 3 options. Therefore I propose that the 2 meter grab range only apply to Survivors and not map objects, this is not the nerf I just wanted this opinion to be known. The nerf should affect the recovery of power cancel. Firstly, the power should not be allowed to be canceled mid Kagune Leap to prevent being too oppressive anymore or if they do so it should have a larger increase in recovery time. The second part would only allow the player to cancel after a Kagune Leap slide has finished, in response to the first effect of the first part. The final suggestion to balance that out would be to reduce the recovery time by a small amount on a power cancel after the slide or when all tokens are used up.
Let us be real BHVR, the problem with Ghoul auto locking had nothing to do with the range of object grabbing for map traversal and more about players being able to catch up to survivors and easily hit them with a timed power cancel. I implore you, DO NOT adjust the speed of the Ghoul but instead take this into account instead on your next iteration of Ghoul changes. Don't make Ghoul into a Chucky. That would be the 3rd Killer of mine you would kill and would tell everyone you thoroughly despise the Killer role and prefer the Survivor role to be more prominent.
Your changes would gut any skill ceilling kaneki has right now, which is body blocking mid loop. If we increase the cancel cooldown a lot of loops become unblockable, if you make it so you cant cancel mid leap you completely kill his skill ceilling and he would be reduced to "legion with more mobility" the real changes ghoul needs are the no skill easy parts of his kit to be reduced. Like enrage vault and kidnap tech.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I think it's a cool exhaustion that encourages a unique playstyle, it's a big risk to take if they arent on gens. Might I recommend blood favour, forced hesitation, Genetic limits, Lightborn, Enduring, infectious fright among probably others that might help you deal with altruism more easily?
Honestly as a killer player I want more altruism, as it means gens aren't being pounded.
Not to mention I believe that anti-slug at most will be like the 2v8 equivalent, which doesn't stop short-term slugging, like a 2 min cd essentially, you'll be fine to slug in that situation still. It's still pressure.How does enduring or even lightborn help at all with this issue? My issue is not with altruism but moments where the killer is forced to slug , you cant do anything if a survivor just always goes down at a pallet, if there is even 1 background player. so i guess i should bring lightborn? Oh wait survivors complain about lightborn every time i use it.
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If you actually tried to play him with bodyblocking in tiles you would know always sliding would be horrible. Also if its "that easy" i wonder why i almost dont see any ghouls try it? Maybe because its actually hard to consistently pull of already.... but try it. Get consistent mid loop blocks and Come back to this post
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919052#Comment_3919052
The survivor already makes distance if they double back
Not really, cancel during dash basically make you ignore whole sliding animation. So you end next to the survivor…
There is simply not much skill involved right now, because it is easy.Yay, you pressed button so you can stop, where you wanted to be. So much skill there…
If you would managed to get where you want at end of this slide and bodyblock, then that takes some skill.
Right now I would actually say Kaneki is similar to Blight, but hugtech version tho. No need to have good bump logic, just look down and you get a hit.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919183#Comment_3919183
Yeah, that's kinda the point…
Sorry, but his power is all about having free first hit and you also want it to be antiloop which can be used even on short loops? While he also counter hold W and has one of best mobility…
With his vault, mobility and short fatigue he would work even without ability to injure survivors with his power.
Either his first hit needs to be more difficult, or his downing needs to be more difficult. Right now I would say both is easy...The body blocking mid loop is the one thing that gives this killer a high skill ceilling, you want to remove skill expression from a already easy to pick up and play killer?
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918655#Comment_3918655
From what I know body blocking with his power can be done mostly with sliding in front of survivor, which would still be possible.
Only thing you would not be able to do is use an easy way and just cancel next to a survivor.
If you want him to have easy time with downing survivors using his power, then you would also need to nerf his first hit instead.There are a lot of smaller loops where you body Block with your second leap by canceling before you slide, if you always slide you will go past what youre trying to body Block.
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Yeah id agree with this, i think top 5 is between artist or kaneki
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917476#Comment_3917476
Making him always slide would hinder his anti loop skill expression i dont think thats a good idea
Quite the opposite, there is little to no skill expression now.
Ghoul is something considered to be fine with free hit, because he is supposed to be difficult to down survivor, which now is simply not true.If he would alway slide, ghoul would have to know where to leap so he is going to slide next to survivor, instead of just pressing button right next to them.
Then it would be something impressive if he managed to slide in front of you and block a pallet, right now it's just too easy.
Also he never slides on his last leap, so you can use that if you want to simply get behind survivor anyway in exactly same way if you would cancel now. You just can't use it on first leap…
Yeah no. His skill ceilling comes from body blocking with your power mid loop which is already very hard to do, your change would make this almost impossible to do/ make his power useless in a lot of loops that are now blockable.
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I would be down for this, ive been using Coffee honestly every single game on top of sachet because body block ken p much needs them. the min distance defo needs to be lower but i think going less then 3m would have negative side effects. Also can we Just remove the aim assist on the m2 already, its making me wiff more then anything
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Yeah no. His skill ceilling comes from body blocking with your power mid loop which is already very hard to do, your change would make this almost impossible to do/ make his power useless in a lot of loops that are now blockable.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
My issue is how easy it is for him to get next to survivor.
Just use it on something behind a survivor:- if survivor run → slide
- if survivor double back → cancel
Just make him always slide, especially because it's really funny to see him slide past you. Then he suddenly has valid counterplay in chase.
Making him always slide would hinder his anti loop skill expression i dont think thats a good idea, the counterplay is making ghoul break the pallet which will be a lot more consistent when they nerf his enrage vault
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This skin is a must, also makes the most sense with the kaneki we have in game, the kakuja makes him unhinged very close to the dbd version. I would love this as a visceral
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Nerfing the cancel cooldown would make him useless in any loop and destroy his skill ceilling, the problematic thing about him is the vault that i can i agree with but if you touch his cancel any fun to be had on this killer is dead, and he turns i to a legion 2.0
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They should Just remove deepwounds from his kit,he doesnt need it. This would solve kagune mark and the tunneling issue.
I heavy dissagree with his slide and HEAVY dissagree with his cancel, the way to play loops with this power is bodyblocking, landing ontop or sliding in a survivor in a loop, this is only possible because of the slide and the cancel being this short. I would increase his cancel only for the first leap, this would help with the whole break pallet dash 1 time playstyle without touching his anti loop.
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@MysteryWyvern said:
Doing a single Kagune Leap should have a slightly increased cancel recovery, but doing 2-3 should stay as is. This is because there are actually ways to antiloop with Ghouls power at tiles but it is difficult, has counterplay, and is still being learned. If you nerf his cancel recovery across the board then it becomes impossible to use his power for the interesting skill based antiloop, because the hits you get from it are an incredibly close shave as it is currently. Whereas the "boring/uninteresting" gameplay of just forcing pallet breaks and using a single leap to follow a survivor would not really be effected either way by a cancel recovery nerf, but if the antiloop no longer works then that playstyle becomes the only thing you can do with him (an across the board cancel recovery nerf would only enforce his most uninteresting playstyle, making him even more boring for both sides).
The auto aim hitbox on survivor should be decreased, because it's literally impossible to not hit a lot of the time, which actually ######### you over as Kaneki especially when you try to antiloop. It's annoying as ######### trying to aim at the environment only to have it change to a survivor grab that wasn't even in the center of your screen. This currently just discourages trying to antiloop because it gets in the way so much and instead enforces the uninteresting break pallet-catchup gameplay because it's usually very easy to not hit the survivor when trying to catch up, due to how you aren't usually grabbing an object near to a survivor to catch up to them, instead using the slide to slingshot yourself up next to them. It would make it slightly harder to get that first grab bite too which even though it wouldn't really make much of a difference about how guaranteed his first hit is, I'm sure survivors would be happy about.
The enraged survivor grab vault needs a slight speed nerf, and the enraged environment grab vault needs a slight speed buff. This thing is useful at too many loops, when grabbing a survivor, often just giving a free hit with seemingly no counterplay at most of the loops that it works at. I honestly think that the way it should work is that a survivor grab vault is a bit slower but once you finish the vault you are reset to m1 mode (how it is currently), and the environment grab vault should be super fast but does NOT end your power usage, meaning you are still able to use your Kagune leaps after an environmental vault, but would have to go through cancel recovery before you can m1. This would actually give a reason to have 2 separate vaults, because currently there is zero reason to ever use the environment grab vault. Or it can be the other way around with the survivor grab vault keeping you in your power and the environment grab vault ending your power. Just something to help make these 2 options different from one another rather than one being a direct upgrade over the other.
Lock survivors in place for less time when they get grabbed and bitten, maybe even remove them being locked in place entirely, and maybe decrease the cooldown after a bite for the Ghoul a tiny bit in exchange. Ghoul catches up so fast and preys on dead zones which he can create rather quickly, let survivors move more distance after the initial grab bite to allow for more interesting gameplay to occur, maybe they make a corner which forces the Ghoul to use multiple leaps to catch up rather than just using a single one, or maybe they make it to a loop, or maybe the Ghoul decides to change targets. But in exchange the Ghoul gets stunned for slightly less time and has their power cooldown after a bite slightly reduced, because it feels kinda sluggish and slow for both sides right now when the Ghoul gets a grab bite. Just let the survivors get massive distance and give the Ghoul more agency after getting a grab bite.
And obviously bug fix his animation issues when getting a bite grab with his power, because most survivors can't understand how the power is coded, they think they're getting hit through walls because of the massive animation delay after you press the button. It also just looks super janky from both sides.
i think increasing the cancel on Just the first leap would be the perfect change, honestly i would also maybe slightly nerf leap distance and or rework blood stained hankerchief ,ontop of removing deepwounds. Deepwounds and the mobility make it just really easy to proxycamp and tunnel
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908505#Comment_3908505
Nah having the best mobility in game plus the easiest first hit is just not going to fly with also having consistent strong anti-loop. His mobility and power recharge would need a hard nerf.
Did you not Just read that i said his leap probably needs a shorter range... i dont think completely gutting a killers skill ceilling is a good balance move. i dont even understand why People are still bringing up the first hit. i dont think ive seen a single person defend the way it works now and its obvious it needs nerfs i wouldnt be against nerfing the power cooldown, just dont touch his cancel
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@NotJared said:
On its own, and on paper, The Ghoul's power is fine and fun to control.
(Even though this is the third back-to-back double dash Killer in a row this year that's been released and the powers are getting a little repetitive, but I digress and that's neither here nor there)However, in practice, The Ghoul is very annoying and unfun to play against, as well as a balancing nightmare: The Ghoul can close almost any gap instantly and immediately follow up with an M1 attack. And there is just nothing Survivors can do about it.
This instant distance and follow up makes it impossible for the Survivors to reach anywhere after a pallet is broken, and it feels incredibly bad, on top of several other features.
I think The Ghoul needs some heavy nerfs and alterations to feel both balanced and good to go against, and any of these in combination (but none in isolation) would make him feel much better to play against:
- Remove the autoaim. I know you guys are proud of this feature and are confident that this makes the Killer feel better, but obviously autoaim will make any Killer feel better to play as (and like total crud to play against). Automatically being given free hits feels good! But that's not what should be happening. It feels wretched to go against as Survivor. A killer this strong, powerful, and more importantly free should not have autoaim, he should have to aim and work for his shots and damage.
- Remove the Survivor Stun on Grab Attacks, or at least make it an instant rather than half a second of paused movement. Getting stopped in your tracks by an auto-aim power feels BAD. Incredibly bad. Full-stop, please don't ever take control of player movement away from the player in a game, please. But in addition to making him feel better to verse, this would also give Survivors a chance to get some more distance before Ghoul comes barreling down the aisle with another Kagune leap.
- Increase both the duration and strength of the animation and slowdown for Cancelling Kagune Leap power. It is almost impossible for Survivors to react to the speed with which The Ghoul can cut them off around almost any corner.
- Make it impossible to cancel Kagune Leap while The Ghoul is mid-leap. This will give Survivors more opportunity to react to Kaneki and reposition after being cut off: A huge thanks to The Ghoul's lethality is his ability to immediately follow up with an M1 from a leap thanks to being able to cancel mid-leap. While it makes him feel even sleeker to play as, for balancing sake I don't think he should be able to do this and I don't think it will detract from his overall smoothness and well-roundedness to play as..
- Consider slowing the Leap speed. The real dangerous nature of this Killer is their ability to pinpoint precisely where they want to be, point, click, and he's instantly there. Survivors should have some opportunity to observe what is happening and change course.
- Consider slowing the base speed of this Killer. Especially if nothing else is nerfed, Kaneki can cover more distance than Nurse can in nearly an instant, and then instantly follow up with an M1. If it wasn't for the fact that the M2 can't down Survivors, I would even suggest that he be slower than Survivors just like Nurse, but that is not the case. Either way, with a speed power this intense, I think it's fair to make him significantly slower.
I think the cooldown of the Kagune Leap itself is fine, actually: The problem is this is not a power that can be balanced by just making it incredibly undodgeably powerful, but it's forced-balanced because players just can't use it for a long time. Increasing the cooldown would not change the lethal nature of the power. The problem is that it's nearly uncounterable when it is used in the right hands in the right place, and Survivors need to be given more opportunity to react.
Gutting his cancel would completely destroy his skill ceilling and make him useless in any loop. the fun part of his kit is trying to body Block mid loop or land ontop/slide in the survivor, this is only possible because his cancel cooldown being this short... i honestly rather they nerf the distance from his leaps or maybe make the cancel after just his first leap longer
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@Axcia_7 said:
BHVR pls don't fumble every kaneki player wants the same changes I swear. I know mine is more unhinged LOL
but PLEASE DO THESE AT LEASTCut the lunge attack in half distance and window
remove the vault speed bonus
reduce the hit box
rework hinami's umbrella
increase the cooldown slightly
make him 4.4Making him 4.4 would make him feel god awfull to play there are loops where you cant use your power. I also think his current cooldown is fine. I would instead like it if they removed the deepwounds from the grab, it makes tunneling way to easy, hitting a injured survivor with the grab should only give you the mark.